Fuck Iran, get Cuba first!!

[Skogen]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/09/news/ec ... tm?cnn=yes

[Winnow]

Sweet chart!

[Cartalas]

Sweet chart!

#1 Baby!!!!

[kyoukan]

look at canada. 1/10 the population and 1/10 the oil consumption.

most of our furnaces are still fuel oil though.

what happened? a couple of years ago it looked like the US was softening on Cuba. lots of US businessmen were down there on trade summits making deals that jesse ventura was promoting.

oh yeah. election.

[Kylere]

Hrm so per capita, it appears that Canadians use the same fuel as Americans.

[kyoukan]

well at least you're starting to get a grasp on the blatantly obvious now. that is an improvement.

[miir]

Hrm so per capita, it appears that Canadians use the same fuel as Americans.

You're not really that dense, are you, Kylere?

[Chidoro]

Sweet chart!

no wonder ol' Jed was a millionaire.

but he's dead now. wellllll doggies...don't dig me up

[Voronwë]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

[vn_Tanc]

lol irl

[Truant]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

iirc from the figures, upwards of 80% of our oil consumption is industrial.
I don't know where those figures are anymore though.

[Siji]

Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

I thought they smoked fags over there..

[miir]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

Canada has a reliance on oil mostly because of it's geographical location and to a lesser extent, lifestyle choices.

American reliance on oil is mosly a result of lifestyle choices.

Russia has a population of over 140 million and it's geogrpahically larger than the US. Using your reasoning, their oil consumption should 500-600% higher than it is now.



An good way to curtail Canadian and US reliance on oil would be to put excessive taxes/penalties on personal vehicles that don't meet fuel consumption targets and offer incentives on vehicles that do.

[miir]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

iirc from the figures, upwards of 80% of our oil consumption is industrial.
I don't know where those figures are anymore though.

I was gonna get to that in my last post, but I have no ideas on how they could encourage industry to become less reliant on oil.

[Skogen]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

true, but the "American Dream" gave birth to suburbia, and there is the heart of the problem.

[Xatrei]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

The suburban sprawl is an artificial creation of the last 60 years, though. The once urban population of this country were encouraged to live in far-flung suburbs and commute rather silly distances to work in cities, and encouraged to drive their own personal land yacht the whole way. Many younger and rapidly growing areas are spread out in ways that are not favorable for any sort of mass transit alternatives even if the people were willing to use them. My own city as an example has a metro-area population of roughly 1.2 million, but only about 250,000 actually live in town. The rest are spread out over huge suburban areas surrounding the city, and there are essentially zero alternate transit options for the vast majority of those in the suburbs.

I'd like to see local, state and federal governments make a push to move people back into town. Revitalization projects, mass transit modernization (specifically capacity increases and greater coverage including park and ride options for outlying areas), tax credits and FHA/VA style guaranteed loans to incent people to move back into the urban areas coupled with higher consumption taxes on non-commercial fuel to encourage people to use transportation alternatives. None of this will ever happen, though, because people won't accept living without the hour of solitude in their private (giant) automobiles each way to work. People have been conditioned for 60+ years that the american dream is to live in an oversized trophy house 50 miles from where you work and to have a couple of high consumption luxury autos to get you wherever you need to go (even just up the street a block). Besides, the politicians don't have the sack to try anything like it anyway.

[Truant]

Main problem w/ US and Canada and reducing our oil reliance (China probably falls into this) is very difficult because we are such a geographically large country. Filthy Euros can just pedal their bikes around while zey smoke zeir zigarettes!!

iirc from the figures, upwards of 80% of our oil consumption is industrial.
I don't know where those figures are anymore though.

I was gonna get to that in my last post, but I have no ideas on how they could encourage industry to become less reliant on oil.

I don't either, other than slap the shit out of them. But I don't think our government has any real control over big industry anyways.

[Fash]

An good way to curtail Canadian and US reliance on oil would be to put excessive taxes/penalties on personal vehicles that don't meet fuel consumption targets and offer incentives on vehicles that do.

Oh you're so smart... tax the people instead of the manufacturers... dumbass.

[Xatrei]

Oh you're so smart... tax the people instead of the manufacturers... dumbass.

And who exactly do you think will pay the manufacturers' increased costs of doing business anyway?

[Fash]

If the consumers are the only ones hurt, how exactly are we as a country going to become less reliant? The manufacturers need a damn good reason to make more efficient engines, and a hit to their bottom line is the best bet.

[Xatrei]

And providing incentives to use more efficient vehicles (or disincentives for using inefficient vehicles) to the consumer would not have that effect?

Plummeting sales of gas guzzling vehicles is painful - especially when so much of your manufacturing infrastructure is devoted to producing the things.

[Aslanna]

Well let's see.. Assuming this would only affect newly manufactured vehicles... The consumer would (should) be aware of such taxes/penalties. If they choose to go ahead and purchase the vehicle they have nothing to cry about. Enough people stop buying such vehicles and the vehicle manufacturers would stop making them as the demand would be less. In theory.

[miir]

An good way to curtail Canadian and US reliance on oil would be to put excessive taxes/penalties on personal vehicles that don't meet fuel consumption targets and offer incentives on vehicles that do.

Oh you're so smart... tax the people instead of the manufacturers... dumbass.

Yea, tax the living fuck out of people who willingly buy gas guzzlers.

[kyoukan]

Oh you're so smart... tax the people instead of the manufacturers... dumbass.

And who exactly do you think will pay the manufacturers' increased costs of doing business anyway?

did you miss market driven economics theory in middle school? manufacturers make vehicles according to conumer demand. I have heard other people (usually environmentalists) claim that marketing drives consumer demand, but I don't buy it. If people start buying fuel efficient vehicles, manufacturers will scramble to build them.

I'm in favor of tax cuts for more fuel efficient vehicles and tax incentives to purchase them. when smartcar first debuted in canada, the feds gave you a $6000 grant to buy one. it made a moderately overpriced car into a cheap alternative, and combined with their uniqueness and efficiency, they sold like hot cakes.

[Xatrei]

Oh you're so smart... tax the people instead of the manufacturers... dumbass.

And who exactly do you think will pay the manufacturers' increased costs of doing business anyway?

did you miss market driven economics theory in middle school? manufacturers make vehicles according to conumer demand. I have heard other people (usually environmentalists) claim that marketing drives consumer demand, but I don't buy it. If people start buying fuel efficient vehicles, manufacturers will scramble to build them.

I'm in favor of tax cuts for more fuel efficient vehicles and tax incentives to purchase them. when smartcar first debuted in canada, the feds gave you a $6000 grant to buy one. it made a moderately overpriced car into a cheap alternative, and combined with their uniqueness and efficiency, they sold like hot cakes.

We're making the same point, so I assume you meant to quote only Fash.. Incentives and penalties should be focused on the consumers rather than the suppliers. Consumer incentives (tax incentives for purchasing efficient cars and penalties for buying inefficient vehicles) result in shifts in demand, which in turn apply pressure on manufacturers to produce cleaner, more efficient vehicles. This is preferable to applying financial penalties to the manufacturers and hoping they'll somehow manage to successfully market different autos to the consumers. The added costs to the manufacturers just end up being passed on transparently to the consumers who have no direct incentive to change. The underlying demand for big, gas guzzling vehicles doesn't change, and consumers just end up paying more for their big, inefficient cars.

[kyoukan]

yeah I quoted the wrong post!

[Spang]

Yea, tax the living fuck out of people who willingly buy gas guzzlers.

there's a gas guzzler tax on Ford Mustangs...atleast that's what i read on the sticker. this was at Ford dealership in El Paso, TX a few years ago.

[Deward]

That chart was from 2004. I would be interested in seeing a more up to date one. I know China is using fuel at an exponential rate as they become further industrialized. Couple that with teh fact that they have price limits on oil costs and I could see them passing the US in a decade.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

If someone wants to buy a gas guzzle and pay $80 a tank a week for gas, they have the freedom to do so. They do not deserve to be taxed extra because they have the wherewithall to afford to waste their money on gas. If the world cannot handle the gas need vs. the gas supply, then they need to mandate smaller vehicles, or hybrids, or new ways to fuel vehicles, etc. The same things that are already happening today.

[Truant]

If someone wants to buy a gas guzzle and pay $80 a tank a week for gas, they have the freedom to do so. They do not deserve to be taxed extra because they have the wherewithall to afford to waste their money on gas. If the world cannot handle the gas need vs. the gas supply, then they need to mandate smaller vehicles, or hybrids, or new ways to fuel vehicles, etc. The same things that are already happening today.

Then what do we do with the tax credit that is currently offered on excursions, suburbans, and hummers for business owners?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

If someone wants to buy a gas guzzle and pay $80 a tank a week for gas, they have the freedom to do so. They do not deserve to be taxed extra because they have the wherewithall to afford to waste their money on gas. If the world cannot handle the gas need vs. the gas supply, then they need to mandate smaller vehicles, or hybrids, or new ways to fuel vehicles, etc. The same things that are already happening today.

Then what do we do with the tax credit that is currently offered on excursions, suburbans, and hummers for business owners?

LOL. Seriously? That's fucked up. Well, then that tax credit would need to go bye bye as well. Hehe

[Bubba Grizz]

If someone wants to buy a gas guzzle and pay $80 a tank a week for gas, they have the freedom to do so. They do not deserve to be taxed extra because they have the wherewithall to afford to waste their money on gas. If the world cannot handle the gas need vs. the gas supply, then they need to mandate smaller vehicles, or hybrids, or new ways to fuel vehicles, etc. The same things that are already happening today.

Then what do we do with the tax credit that is currently offered on excursions, suburbans, and hummers for business owners?

That credit was an example of stupidity in motion. I find that to be totally irresponsible on the part of the people who pushed that through. I also think that Auto Racing should be a thing of the past as well until we get alternatively powered vehicels.

[miir]

Actually, auto racing is responsible for a lot of the technological advancements that make it to consumer vehicles. Be it fuel economy/efficiency, emission reductions or safety.

[Kylere]

My 1996 Ford Mustang GT Convertible gets 18MPG City and 27MPG Highway.

Look at the EPA site for mileage of 1996 vehicles and mine sits comfortabnly in the lower middle when you you include the entire range from subs to Ford Excusions and GMC Megatrucks.

Hell considering I drive with myself or no morer than one other person I choose one of the more responsible rides when everyone else I worked with were buying Eddie Bauer Expeditions and Land Rovers.

In hindsight, I would have chosen the BMW 328i Convertible I had also looked at, but the 20/29 it rates at is not huge, because I get more like 21 city and 27 Highway in RL experience. Perhaps the RL BMW experience is also better. But I must admit to having a mild buy American bias, and I will make no excuses for it.

[Skogen]

That chart was from 2004. I would be interested in seeing a more up to date one. I know China is using fuel at an exponential rate as they become further industrialized. Couple that with teh fact that they have price limits on oil costs and I could see them passing the US in a decade.

That's top secret....a whole war is being planned because of what it shows!!

[Skogen]

Actually, auto racing is responsible for a lot of the technological advancements that make it to consumer vehicles. Be it fuel economy/efficiency, emission reductions or safety.

As long as you don't count NASCAR.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Actually, auto racing is responsible for a lot of the technological advancements that make it to consumer vehicles. Be it fuel economy/efficiency, emission reductions or safety.

As long as you don't count NASCAR.

Cars never turned left back before NASCAR, like they do now.

[Skogen]

Actually, auto racing is responsible for a lot of the technological advancements that make it to consumer vehicles. Be it fuel economy/efficiency, emission reductions or safety.

As long as you don't count NASCAR.

Cars never turned left back before NASCAR, like they do now.

and someone never told them that carburation was a thing of the past.

[Siji]

I can afford a $200 a month water bill. Think the water company is going to let me use that much without a fine for over consumption? How is this different from gas? It's not.

Tax the fuck out of people buying gas guzzling vehicles.

[Cartalas]

I can afford a $200 a month water bill. Think the water company is going to let me use that much without a fine for over consumption? How is this different from gas? It's not.

Tax the fuck out of people buying gas guzzling vehicles.

Damn everytime I turn my Sprinklers on I get a 200 dollar water bill, I think im going brown this year.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I can afford a $200 a month water bill. Think the water company is going to let me use that much without a fine for over consumption? How is this different from gas? It's not.

Tax the fuck out of people buying gas guzzling vehicles.

2 wrongs don't make a right.

[Aslanna]

It's not wrong.. It's an incentive to purchase more gas-friendly vehicles.

[miir]

It's not wrong.. It's an incentive to purchase more gas-friendly vehicles.

It's the same as the Canadian government taxing the living shit out of cigarettes and alcohol. It's what they call a 'sin' tax. You don't need to smoke or drink, much the same as you don't need a huge, gas guzzling SUV.