Convert and you Die

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Tyek
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Convert and you Die

Post by Tyek »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060323/ap_ ... an_convert

Afghan Clerics Demand Convert Be Killed By DANIEL COONEY, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 24 minutes ago



KABUL, Afghanistan - Senior Muslim clerics demanded Thursday that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."


In an unusual move, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.

His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.
The trial, which began last week, has caused an internationalout-cry. President Bush has said he is "deeply troubled" by the case and expects the country to "honor the universal principle of freedom."

Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country. But in deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.

"This is clearly an Afghan decision," McCormack said. "They are a sovereign country."

Still, Rice's direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country is an unusual move.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.

"I have the impression that he (Karzai) has a firm willingness" to abide by the human rights requirements, Merkel said going into pre-European Union summit talks. "I hope we will be able to resolve this."

Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul's most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque.

"The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, agreed. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Hamidullah warned that if the government frees Rahman, "there will be an uprising" like one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

"The government will lose the support of the people," he said. "What sort of democracy would it be if the government ignored the will of all the people."

Meanwhile, human rights group Amnesty International said if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a "prisoner of conscience."

"The charges against him should be dropped and if necessary he should be protected against any abuses within the community," the London-based group said in a statement.

Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial will resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer.



This is the reason we need to leave this part of the world. How do you fight a mentality like this. Think freely and die, or do what we say and live. Yes, Kyou and Teeny I know, the US sucks ,and we are told what to think, but last time I checked no one was calling for people to be pulled apart because they don't like something.

I truely hope this is not representative of the people following this religion. I am extremely ignorant of the tenants of Islam, but I cannot imagine a religion calling for the death as often as the zealots of Islam claim it does. Too many rational Muslims have said otherwise for me to believe it.
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Post by Animalor »

Sadly, as long as fundamentalism of and type exists, secularism or even freedom will never thrive.
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Post by Mawafu »

Quran 9:5 - So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Quran 9:29 - Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

So your 3 options are join Islam, die, or pay the tax (jizya). They're just doing what Muhammad told them...
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Re: Convert and you Die

Post by Hesten »

Tyek wrote: This is the reason we need to leave this part of the world. How do you fight a mentality like this. Think freely and die, or do what we say and live. Yes, Kyou and Teeny I know, the US sucks ,and we are told what to think, but last time I checked no one was calling for people to be pulled apart because they don't like something.

You mean apart from:
Religious broadcasters who dont like foreign leaders (http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... ssassinate)
Anti-abortion protesters (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na ... s/gunn.htm)
Upcoming possible senators(http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=49135

Im sure we can find many other examples, just picked some easy ones :).
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Post by Tyek »

Ok, lets look at those three. Do you think that Keiser Jr, will ever see the Senate, or any other seat of government. I bet if I go look into your contries political candidates I could find a few nut jobs too.

Pat Robertson, made a suggestion, admittedly a stupid one, but it is not a LAW. It was a stupid suggestion by a stupid person, hardly the same thing as a man ALREADY on trial on changing his religion.

On the abortion front, yes, they do have terrorists who justify murdering a doctor, thinking they are saving lives. They are also morons and are not supported by governmental laws. You have people killing Muslims in your neck of the woods because they are muslim. I don't call out all people from your nation killers.

I was stating the fact that this apparently is a law on the books, sponsored by the government and supported by some of its main leaders. If I stated that we should kill Pat Robertson and Keiser Jr for being the morons they are, it does not mean that all of VV supports this view or is accountable.

The article seems to suggest that a vast majority of its leaders want this man dead for changing his religion and if you think that is on par with some idiot stating homosexuals should die, when you know there is no chance in hell that would ever be a law here, so be it.
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Post by Tangurena »

Sehra wrote:Oh no! America'd better invade Afghanistan and put a stop to this sort of thing!

Oh.
Wait.
source


Wikipedia article on apostasy in Islam
Another article on apostasy in Islam
BBC story

In Islam, an apostate is worse than an infidel. An infidel doesn't know better. An apostate knows Islam is better and rejects it anyway (this is the muslim side of the argument). Sadam was considered by many to be an apostate, since he was trying to resurrect Babylon. Which is why Ansar-al-Islam was attacking him and his government. Ahh, but Ansar-al-Islam was underneath the Northern No Fly Zone and therefore Sadam's troops would be attacked everytime they tried to raid Ansar-al-Islam. Yes, you read that correct: the US+UK protected AlQeda from Sadam Hussein. How else would we be able to claim that AQ was in Iraq? Or that there was a link between the 2?
So your 3 options are join Islam, die, or pay the tax (jizya)
That last one is usually called dhimmitude. According to sharia, a muslim may be executed for killing another muslim, but a muslim may never be executed for killing an infidel, even a dhimmi. So one should expect cartoon-sized riots if Moussaoui gets sentenced to death. That's why I think the administration is deliberately trying to throw the case.
Washington Post wrote:An FBI agent who interrogated Zacarias Moussaoui before Sept. 11, 2001, warned his supervisors more than 70 times that Moussaoui was a terrorist and spelled out his suspicions that the al-Qaeda operative was plotting to hijack an airplane, according to federal court testimony yesterday.

Agent Harry Samit told jurors at Moussaoui's death penalty trial that his efforts to secure a warrant to search Moussaoui's belongings were frustrated at every turn by FBI officials he accused of "criminal negligence." Samit said he had sought help from a colleague, writing that he was "so desperate to get into Moussaoui's computer I'll take anything."

That was on Sept. 10, 2001.

Samit's testimony added striking detail to the voluminous public record on the FBI's bungling of the Moussaoui case. It also could help Moussaoui's defense. Samit is a prosecution witness who had earlier backed the government's central theory of the case: that the FBI would have raised "alarm bells" and could have stopped the Sept. 11 attacks if Moussaoui had not lied to agents. But under cross-examination by the defense yesterday, Samit said that he did raise those alarms -- repeatedly -- but that his bosses impeded his efforts.
Source
NY Times wrote:Michael Rollince, who was the Federal Bureau of Investigation's chief of international terrorism section until his retirement, testified that he had little knowledge of Mr. Moussaoui before the attacks. Mr. Rollince said he was unaware that Harry Samit, an agent in Minneapolis, had filed a lengthy report asking for a complete investigation of Mr. Moussaoui, whom he described as a radical Islamic fundamentalist who hated the United States and was learning to fly jetliners.

When Edward B. MacMahon Jr., Mr. Moussaoui's chief court-appointed lawyer, asked Mr. Rollince if he knew that when Mr. Moussaoui was arrested he was under suspicion of planning an airliner hijacking, Mr. Rollince replied, "No." Then, after a moment he asked sharply, "Can I ask what document that's coming from?"

Mr. MacMahon offered a quick reply: "That's Mr. Samit's communication to your office," he said. "Aug. 18, 2001."
Source
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Post by masteen »

Jizzya is a great name for a tax. Thanks, Islam!
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Post by Zaelath »

Tyek wrote:Ok, lets look at those three. Do you think that Keiser Jr, will ever see the Senate, or any other seat of government. I bet if I go look into your contries political candidates I could find a few nut jobs too.

Pat Robertson, made a suggestion, admittedly a stupid one, but it is not a LAW. It was a stupid suggestion by a stupid person, hardly the same thing as a man ALREADY on trial on changing his religion.

On the abortion front, yes, they do have terrorists who justify murdering a doctor, thinking they are saving lives. They are also morons and are not supported by governmental laws. You have people killing Muslims in your neck of the woods because they are muslim. I don't call out all people from your nation killers.

I was stating the fact that this apparently is a law on the books, sponsored by the government and supported by some of its main leaders. If I stated that we should kill Pat Robertson and Keiser Jr for being the morons they are, it does not mean that all of VV supports this view or is accountable.

The article seems to suggest that a vast majority of its leaders want this man dead for changing his religion and if you think that is on par with some idiot stating homosexuals should die, when you know there is no chance in hell that would ever be a law here, so be it.
You have the death penalty in the US, so it's merely semantics picking which crime is worthy of exercising it. Plenty of countries have the death penalty for trafficking in pot. Afghanistan apparently is just a tiny bit to the right of the US, so they think conversion is a worthy offense.

Your state has the three-strikes law, which in effect means you can get 25 to life for 2 convictions for affray (say a bar fight) and one for getting caught with a joint. Personally I find that as reprehensible as the death penalty.

Pretty sure this guy was aware of the law (or should have been) so he probably is insane (you'd have to be), but this does seem to be another case of the reality of democracy being lost on the American people:
Hamidullah warned that if the government frees Rahman, "there will be an uprising" like one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

"The government will lose the support of the people," he said. "What sort of democracy would it be if the government ignored the will of all the people."
You think democracy means people are free, and that free people will want to be like Americans, when in reality they'll elect Hamas and generally want things to be mostly as they have always been.

Amusing really.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

This situation sucks and I'm all in favour of the West leaning on the Afghans to allow religious pluralism.

Yeah US sucks blah fucking blah but I'm getting tired of coming here to read that just cos shitty situation B sucks/is comparable to shitty situation A then everything is ok and let's not debate it. It's bollocks.

In my opinion:
- "Zero Tolerance" should be excised from the dictionaries of all law enforcement agencies and politicians.
- 3 strikes is bullshit
- Im anti-death-penalty full stop
- But that said executing someone for changing religion is pretty fuckin odious by anyone's standards.
- But yeah if the US-Taliban take control and start applying Biblical law to the letter things would be just as bad. However that's a ludicrously unlikely turn of events so I'm not going to use it as part of any argument.
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Re: Convert and you Die

Post by Wulfran »

Tyek wrote:This is the reason we need to leave this part of the world. How do you fight a mentality like this.
Yes! Fold up all the tents and go home, instead of trying to establish some stability and normality in a region that was largely lawless. Don't bother trying to provide an example of how tolerance can work because its wasted on these backwards idiots!

Don't worry, the Taliban (or another similar group) won't regain control and they won't want to export terrorism (again)...
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Post by Tuddi2 »

vn_Tanc wrote:- But that said executing someone for changing religion is pretty fuckin odious by anyone's standards.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

The Muslims are just followers of a peaceful religion.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

vn_Tanc wrote:
- But that said executing someone for changing religion is pretty fuckin odious by anyone's standards.


6-12 years old
The child becomes aware that people may differ in their emotional reactions to the same event

(Shaffer, 2002)
What?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

vn_Tanc wrote:
vn_Tanc wrote:
- But that said executing someone for changing religion is pretty fuckin odious by anyone's standards.


6-12 years old
The child becomes aware that people may differ in their emotional reactions to the same event

(Shaffer, 2002)
What?
Observational commentary. Whats so hard to understand?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Observational commentary
Wrong on both counts.
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Post by Tyek »

Did Zae just say that us having the death penalty for someone who has murdered people - in most states this also has to include a special circumstance to cal for the death penalty - is just a little right of the situation going on in Afghanistan? A little right? I would hate to see your definition of wayyyyy right of the US then.
Pretty sure this guy was aware of the law (or should have been) so he probably is insane (you'd have to be), but this does seem to be another case of the reality of democracy being lost on the American people:


So this guy is at fault for being aware of the law and breaking it, but it is reprehensible that we have people who are aware of the three strikes rule, break it and then go to jail? He should die for his one crime, but Billy Bob can get found guilty of three crimes, (not misdemeanors, major crimes) and that is a travesty of justice?

The three strikes penalty has it faults, it is being revamped from what I understand to make it more amenable to the crime committed, but way to take the most frivolous concept of it and run with it. What about the jackass that robbed 2 stores, then gets in a bar fight? Should we just keep letting him out? The first two times he committed a crime were forgotten? Sorry, but if I have 2 strikes against me and I go do something stupid, well I am not sure that 25 years is not a good lesson. I mean sure lets pick extremes since you are doing it. What about the pedophile, he gets out 2 times, and then does it again. Ok let him serve another 14 months - 5 years, then release him to defile another child.

And as far as the reality of Democracy getting lost on Americans, you didn't seem to notice quite a few countries are pushing the Afghan government to come to their senses. I think in reality I stated that this is a crazy law, and I was surprised because it does not fall in line with the tenants I had known about the Muslim religion, which I also admittedly said I am mostly ignorant of. I am not sure how you can turn this into a "the US is to blame for getting this guy killed because they got a democracy in here."

And Wulfran, yes our shining beacon of truth has sure turned the Iraqi, Iran, hell for that matter the Israeli government toward the path of enlightenment. You have Vietnam Jr here and frankly you cannot convert those who do not want to be converted.

Zae, why is there not the condemnation from you of a government that would support such a stupid law. The 3-strike law appalls you, but you seem to state that this law is on the books and so he should accept his fate. That makes no sense to me, if us having a death penalty is horrible, where is the righteous indignation over this situation?
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Post by cadalano »

So this guy is at fault for being aware of the law and breaking it, but it is reprehensible that we have people who are aware of the three strikes rule, break it and then go to jail?
Whats reprehensible about the three strikes rule is that it allows you to constitutionally apply a sentence of 25-to-life on a shoplifting conviction. Thats different though, and beside the point. If you want to compare these two ideals fairly, then once again we revisit the idea that America must be held to a higher standard. Youre forgetting that we live in a nation that condemns cruel and unusual punishment. Afghanistan, not so much. When all of that is in context, youre really looking at apples and oranges.

Yeah, I dont think its cool to kill someone because they want to hug Jesus. But that is as normal there as it is for us to execute a murderer. And its going to remain that way. You cant just stick a daisy in their fist and expect results.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

cadalano wrote:
So this guy is at fault for being aware of the law and breaking it, but it is reprehensible that we have people who are aware of the three strikes rule, break it and then go to jail?
Whats reprehensible about the three strikes rule is that it allows you to constitutionally apply a sentence of 25-to-life on a shoplifting conviction. Thats different though, and beside the point. If you want to compare these two ideals fairly, then once again we revisit the idea that America must be held to a higher standard. Youre forgetting that we live in a nation that condemns cruel and unusual punishment. Afghanistan, not so much. When all of that is in context, youre really looking at apples and oranges.

Yeah, I dont think its cool to kill someone because they want to hug Jesus. But that is as normal there as it is for us to execute a murderer. And its going to remain that way. You cant just stick a daisy in their fist and expect results.
I love that law. Habitual scumbags of any type should be removed from mainstream society. Buh-bye!
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Post by Zaelath »

Tyek wrote: Zae, why is there not the condemnation from you of a government that would support such a stupid law. The 3-strike law appalls you, but you seem to state that this law is on the books and so he should accept his fate. That makes no sense to me, if us having a death penalty is horrible, where is the righteous indignation over this situation?
Are Australians petitioning your judges not to use three-strikes in stupid cases? But as pointed out before, it's not 3 "major crimes", it's 2 "serious or violent" crimes and another "anything". Of course Midnyte loves this law, it's only ever used on black people.

My appologies if you assumed I support this guy being executed, but I do think it's beyond the scope of Americans to have "righteous" indignation about state sanctioned killing.

If you want to fix this problem, you're talking about a return to the crusades. If it was King George getting all his advice from his invisible friend, you might have a shot, but since it's just President Bush... unlikely.
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Post by Tuddi2 »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I love that law. Habitual scumbags of any type should be removed from mainstream society. Buh-bye!
why not just kill them, it's cheaper.
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Post by Tyek »

Zae, I think you misunderstood my initial post. I want out of this area because you cannot defeat a mentality like this. They will just have more kids and throw them at you with bombs strapped to their chests.

I do have to disagree with you on the three strikes law though. I don't think it is asking to much of a person to avoid the 2 serious or violent crimes before making the trivial third one. The fact a person has 2 serious crimes then commits any more at all speaks more to their character then anything I could say about them. I know I don't have any friends sweating over this law (black, purple, green or any other nationality or color). How stupid does a person have to be to get caught on this law. Just don't commit crime, or heaven forbide you did one crime, I don't know, maybe become a responsible citizen and stop being a blight on the system? What is sad is that people are worried about going to jail over this law, but they are not worried about hurting someone 2 separate times, to qualify for the penalty.

Thanks for an interesting arguement though. I enjoy discussing points if it is more then just the standard "your a blah blah blah" we usually get here.
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Post by Truant »

Tuddi2 wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I love that law. Habitual scumbags of any type should be removed from mainstream society. Buh-bye!
why not just kill them, it's cheaper.
see statement above regarding cruel and unusual punishment.
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Post by kyoukan »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I love that law. Habitual scumbags of any type should be removed from mainstream society. Buh-bye!
It is in your best interest to fear the day they start imprisoning habitual scumbags for 25 years.
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Post by Zaelath »

Tyek wrote:Zae, I think you misunderstood my initial post. I want out of this area because you cannot defeat a mentality like this. They will just have more kids and throw them at you with bombs strapped to their chests.
Ahh, fair enough, that's why I didn't want you there in the first place :)
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Post by cadalano »

Mr. Abdul was released & charges dismissed. Official reasons being lack of evidence. Some readings also suggest that he is perceived as a lunatic and that could have had something to do with the decision.

Not the best article, but whatever:
http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorest ... t&id=86205




They found that the guy owned a bible which started the whole thing and he pretty much confessed to the crime so its not too far fetched that there might be more to the story.

I think he's going to wind up dead anyway
I TOLD YOU ID SHOOT! BUT YOU DIDNT BELIEVE ME! WHY DIDNT YOU BELIEVE ME?
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

Stupid fucking case, stupid fucking sharia law.
Tangurena
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Post by Tangurena »

cadalano wrote:Mr. Abdul was released & charges dismissed. Official reasons being lack of evidence. Some readings also suggest that he is perceived as a lunatic and that could have had something to do with the decision.
He is also looking for asylum in any other country.
BBC wrote:More than 1,000 protesters took to the streets in the northern city of Mazar-e-Sharif on Monday morning.

They demanded that Mr Rahman be tried and executed.
I wonder if the population of the US will take this opportunity to learn the history behind why we have that "anti establishment" clause in the constitution. Because Afghanistan doesn't have a "separation of church and state." They have a theocracy. Of the same sort that the Taleban Wing of the Republican Party want to install.

Back when Virginia was a colony, the only legal church was the Anglican Church. A lawyer would say that the Anglican Church was established as the state church. Marriages performed by non-Anglicans were not legal, and the party involved could be prosecuted for adultery. Your taxes would go to pay for the Anglican church and minister, so he could live in the lifestyle to which he would like to become accustomed, and even if you weren't a member of the Anglican church, you paid those taxes. Baptist missionaries were tarred and feathered before being run out of town on a rail.

Back when Massachussetts was a colony, the only legal church was the Puritan Church. That was the established religion. Baptist and Quaker missionaries were publicly hung for prosletysing. Only Puritans were allowed to hold political office.

The colony of Rhode Island was set up by Baptists who fled from the religious fanatics of Massachussetts. The colony of Pennsylvania was set up by Quakers so that they could live in peace.

When the Taleban Wing of the Republican Party claim that there was no separation of church and state at the founding of this country, it shows that they have a deep and complete ignorance of the history of America. Joining church and state leads to corruption. We have lots of history proving that point.
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Truant
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Post by Truant »

You forgot the most absurd one of all.

Maryland was established as a catholic feudal state...seriously, wtf!


Ok sorry, back on topic.
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Post by Markulas »

i found this to make more roffles: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12038469/
I'm going to live forever or die trying
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Post by Sargeras »

Sargeras Gudluvin - R.I.P. old friend - January 9, 2005
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Post by kyoukan »

Nick wrote:Stupid fucking case, stupid fucking sharia law.
the united states is worse though am i rite?
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