Need legal advice (traffic court) (Very long)

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » January 31, 2006, 6:08 pm

Hey guys. I'm turning to reliable old Veeshanvault for some advice since a lot of you know so much more than I do!

I'll start at the beginning of the story (It's kinda long)

For my job I drive from one store to another selling Coca-Cola products to them. I met up with a coworker one day and he agreed to follow me to one of my stores to help me out.

So, there we are, driving down the road - me in front of him. We come up to a slow moving car (doing about 45 in a 55.) I check the oncoming lane; there's a car coming. I wait for it to go and check again, there's a car about 1400 - 1600 feet down the lane, give or take. I decide that there's plenty of room to pass and I do.

During the pass my speed probably reached about 70mph, I pulled back into my lane, checked my rear view and saw my coworker behind the slow car still. It's no problem - he knew where he was going.

I check the mirror again and see him passing the car. The oncoming car that was ~1400 - ~1600 feet away is still coming, it's less than ~800 feet away now. He makes the pass, it's kinda tight but no real issues.

A mile down the road I check my mirror again and see a sheriff van behind both of us with his lights on. I continue on, feeling bad for my coworker because he's being pulled over.

But he doesn't pull over. Not right away at least, he doesn't see the cop. So I put on my right turn signal, pull over and he gets the idea and pulls over behind me.

The cop pulls over right behind him and I'm already stopped. I decide it would be a bad idea to leave at this point and I assume the officer will tell me to be on my way.

Instead, when I roll down my window for him he starts yelling at me and tells me the car had to go heavy on it's brakes when I was passing. He says my coworker's pass was downright wreckless.

I end up with a ticket for Unsafe Passing (3 point violation) and so does my coworker.

Just today I went and saw the Assistant DA for that town and she offered to reduce it to Failure to Obey a Traffic Signal (2 point violation).

I refused and asked for a trial, so off I go in march. I'll be given a chance to question the officer and so will she. I can also bring any witnesses I want.

My coworker plead guilty to his ticket and admits that his pass was unsafe and mine wasn't.

So, VV, what questions should I ask the officer? Should I ask the coworker to be a witness? (I'd prefer not to).

If the prosecutor (DA) asks about my speed while passing can I object and say that I'm not being charged with speeding and it's irrelevant?

Is it legal for one officer to pull over multiple cars?

Question's I've come up with so far are:

1.) How did he see the oncoming car hit it's brake lights from BEHIND me?
2.) Was he intending on pulling both of us over all along?
3.) Why didn't he immediately pull me over if my pass was unsafe?

That's all I've got so far.

Any advice would be wonderful. My driving record is perfectly clean right now, no at-fault accidents or violations and my insurance is already outrageous

Car - 1500 / yr
Bike - 1800 / yr

I can't afford it to go up.

Thanks everyone.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 31, 2006, 6:30 pm

Take it to court and owndizzle the cop. by bringing the coworker if necessary. Then tell the cop to go investigate a real crime.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 31, 2006, 7:44 pm

Is Chewbacca a Wookie? I REMIND YOU, SIR, THAT YOU'RE UNDER OATH! I ask again, IS CHEWBACCA A WOOKIE?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 31, 2006, 7:46 pm

If someone brakes hard you will see their front dip, that said, if you passed and pulled back into your lane before your co-worked had even started passing... I'd be surprised though if you could pass a car, even at 70 v's 45, in 600 feet.

Your biggest problem here is judges believe cops. You have to find something compelling to turn them, get any and all real legal advice you can rather than the VV.

Never offer information you don't have either, if you say you might have hit 70 then you did hit 70, there's no need to proffer a speed and still be telling the truth if they ask if you exceeded the limit.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » January 31, 2006, 7:48 pm

I probably would have gone with the 2 pointer. If you go to court and the cop shows up most likely you'll end up with the same result.

And yeah it's legal to pull over more than one car. Fairly sure, anyway. Happened to me before.

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » January 31, 2006, 8:42 pm

I'd just like to point out that considering you're a male between the ages of 18 and 25, $1500 for car insurance is not "outrageous" by any means. Yes, it's "outrageous" in the sense that the price is ridiculously high, but it's no worse than anyone else fitting your criteria.

Carry on.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » January 31, 2006, 9:25 pm

If you're going to trial seek legal council, otherwise you're screwed. You won't know court procedures. The judge, prosecutor, and police officer will know one another and your case will be entirely conjecture. Given testimony from you and the officer, who do you think the judge is going to believe? I'm fairly certain you don't have to take the stand in your own defense, but you really should seek legal help. Call your local bar association. If you get someone to take the case, you really should accept the plea. If you lose, you'll have to pay court fees.

Good luck.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » January 31, 2006, 9:26 pm

Pay the fine you pussy. Be a man and own up to it!

You shoulda spit in the cops face and gotten beat on video tape and be on COPS bad boy bad boy.

(this outrageous statement has been brought to you by Osama Bin Ladin)

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » January 31, 2006, 10:02 pm

Pay the fine you pussy. Be a man and own up to it!

I assume you're saying this in a sarcastic tone but still, I feel that I didn't deserve to be pulled over in the first place. Had my coworker not passed behind me I'm pretty sure the officer wouldn't have pulled anybody over.

I'd be surprised though if you could pass a car, even at 70 v's 45, in 600 feet.

The measurements were an estimate, 600 feet is probably a little less than the actual distance. However even I agree that my coworkers pass was completely wreckless and unsafe. I'd have pulled him over too but I'd have to me to go ahead and leave.

I'd just like to point out that considering you're a male between the ages of 18 and 25, $1500 for car insurance is not "outrageous" by any means. Yes, it's "outrageous" in the sense that the price is ridiculously high, but it's no worse than anyone else fitting your criteria.

I completely agree.

If you're going to trial seek legal council, otherwise you're screwed. You won't know court procedures. The judge, prosecutor, and police officer will know one another and your case will be entirely conjecture. Given testimony from you and the officer, who do you think the judge is going to believe? I'm fairly certain you don't have to take the stand in your own defense, but you really should seek legal help.

This is my main concern. I don't know court procedures. I don't even know if it's going to be a real trial or just the four of us (Judge, DA, me and officer) sitting in a small room.

I'm weighing my options right now, I have a little over a month to figure things out. I doubt a lawyer would be cheaper than any fines.

I probably would have gone with the 2 pointer. If you go to court and the cop shows up most likely you'll end up with the same result.

It's a 1 point difference, a defensive driving course will clear my record no matter which charge I'm found guilty of.

Might as well go for the win in this situation, at least that's how I see it.

I forgot to mention the officer suggested I take it to court (don't know if he meant the DA's office and accept the plea bargain or to actual trial)

Still, I figured it was worth a shot.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 31, 2006, 10:16 pm

Man I feel for you, he saw you, thought you were speeding, and did not radar gun you in time. He then pulled you over to smack you anyways.

Happened to Wayseeker and I one day going to work. He had done nothing wrong other than a bit over and the cop was a dick with nothing bettter to do.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » January 31, 2006, 10:27 pm

Neziroth wrote:I forgot to mention the officer suggested I take it to court

Had you said anything when this came up? That sounds really odd.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » January 31, 2006, 10:40 pm

Had you said anything when this came up? That sounds really odd.

The way he put it was something like this:

Officer: "I didn't run your liscence. Have you had tickets before?"
Me: "No."
Officer: "If your liscence is clean, go to court. I suggest you go to court. They'll take care of you."

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » January 31, 2006, 11:10 pm

Maybe he did mean taking it to court rather than a plea. It is strange though. It is almost like he did not intend to show up, even though some areas have designated people to attend court on the city or county's behalf.

I would look into legal counsel if you decide to go though. If you are able to take defensive driving to erase an item, they may be able to take information from you and the friend that was following in order to determine which would be better. I am guessing that it could cost you some money just for that much consultation though.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 31, 2006, 11:14 pm

Neziroth wrote:
Had you said anything when this came up? That sounds really odd.
The way he put it was something like this:

Officer: "I didn't run your liscence. Have you had tickets before?"
Me: "No."
Officer: "If your liscence is clean, go to court. I suggest you go to court. They'll take care of you."

You could also try writing the police commissoner or what have you.

With a clean record and a reasonably well-spoken explanation of how you saw things to have occured, he might be able to quash the ticket before court? At least that can happen here, not sure what their powers are in the US/your state.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » January 31, 2006, 11:27 pm

Doesn't work the same in the US. The police commish doesn't have that broad of power in most places.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 1, 2006, 12:10 am

First of all, if the cop doesn't show up to court it will get thrown out. What are the odds he will bother to shop up for a rinky dink passing violation that was sketchy anyway?

Second, he has zero proof that the car even touched its brakes unless he mounted a giant mirror behind it. Of course he would also need a time machine to go back and plant it.

The only thing you will need to bring up is that not only did you make a comfortable and safe pass within the speed limit.....and that is how it should be stated....but another car also passed behind you. There is no possible way a cop can say that a car braked without being behind it to see it happen, have the other car's driver subpoenaed to testify, or by getting evidence of skid marks left by it. Lets also not forget that you passed the slow moving vehicle without breaking the speed limit.

Lynnsie · Post by **Lynnsie** » February 1, 2006, 12:33 am

I'm going to have to agree with Kilmoll on this one, I work in Family Law, so it's not like we get a lot of people talking about speeding tickets and traffic violations. The only thing that even seems like it would not be in your favor, is the fact that your co-worker plead guilty on pretty much the same thing you did not. The only difference in your argument and his, was that you passed first, leaving much more room for you to pass than him, but unless it's caught on tape you all could have passed at the same time and come within inches of hitting the oncoming car and it wouldn't be any different in the judges eyes.

You are however, going to get your ass reamed in Attorney Fee's. It woulda been cheaper to go ahead and pay your fines and suck it up, hopefully you'll be able to find a decent lawyer in whatever area you live in that will not get you up the ass without lube first. You also have the choice to be in propria persona which means representing yourself at the trial. Most likely, since it's such a small deal, if you show up and don't run your mouth, the judge will probably just dismiss it anyways. Most likely it will be city court, depending on where you live and you'll be on the docket to go in around 9ish in the morning in March, you can call the Clerk of the Court in your county to find out more closer to the date. If the cop shows up (which is highly unlikely) he'll give his word, and you'll give yours, and that's it, Judges decision will be final and he'll ask you how you again plead. If the cop doesn't show up it'll get thrown out and you may get snagged with court fees. If you really feel like you need legal representation, you can yellow page for different attorney's in your area, and call them to discuss your situation. Most attorney's that I know anyway, offer atleast a free 45 minute consultation before they give you the run down of what your costs are going to be to retain them. But definately stick with what Kilmoll said regardless of what you do..You were going the speed limit, even while passing the car, and in your opinion, backed up by your perfect driving record, there was more than an ample amount of time to switch lanes, pass the car and be safely back in your correct lane before the oncoming car even came anywhere near you. Hopefully everything works out, like you said, one defensive driving course should have it taken off your record anyway.

Soreali · Post by **Soreali** » February 1, 2006, 12:34 am

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: The only thing you will need to bring up is that not only did you make a comfortable and safe pass within the speed limit.....and that is how it should be stated....but another car also passed behind you. There is no possible way a cop can say that a car braked without being behind it to see it happen, have the other car's driver subpoenaed to testify, or by getting evidence of skid marks left by it. Lets also not forget that you passed the slow moving vehicle without breaking the speed limit.

He went over the limit by approx. 15mph.. thats a 4pt ticket right there.

What I would do is find out of the cops in your town have mounted cameras in their car and see if he can prove that the car slammed its brakes hard.. Also, did you use your signal? Because if you did you did nothing wrong because the other driver should have saw it and known you were changing lanes. They could have just as easily been on their cellphone or putting on makeup and not saw you and when they looked up hit the brakes out of reaction.

Another thing I would do is go to the DA and see if you can make a plea of unsafe operation. I've been told by friends that you can use this once every three years or something to that effect.. It's a no point offense with like a 250 dollar fine.. I'd jump all over that.. Or see if they'd give you a careless driving.. Also a no point offense with a 250 or so fine.

I'm majoring in criminal justice and i know a few cops/professors.. I'll see if I can pick their brains and if they'll give me any info..

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 1, 2006, 12:43 am

Soreali wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: The only thing you will need to bring up is that not only did you make a comfortable and safe pass within the speed limit.....and that is how it should be stated....but another car also passed behind you. There is no possible way a cop can say that a car braked without being behind it to see it happen, have the other car's driver subpoenaed to testify, or by getting evidence of skid marks left by it. Lets also not forget that you passed the slow moving vehicle without breaking the speed limit.

He went over the limit by approx. 15mph.. thats a 4pt ticket right there.

What I would do is find out of the cops in your town have mounted cameras in their car and see if he can prove that the car slammed its brakes hard.. Also, did you use your signal? Because if you did you did nothing wrong because the other driver should have saw it and known you were changing lanes. They could have just as easily been on their cellphone or putting on makeup and not saw you and when they looked up hit the brakes out of reaction.

Another thing I would do is go to the DA and see if you can make a plea of unsafe operation. I've been told by friends that you can use this once every three years or something to that effect.. It's a no point offense with like a 250 dollar fine.. I'd jump all over that.. Or see if they'd give you a careless driving.. Also a no point offense with a 250 or so fine.

I'm majoring in criminal justice and i know a few cops/professors.. I'll see if I can pick their brains and if they'll give me any info..

Some of the advice you are giving is good.....IF you are in the same state. State laws will vary quite a bit on what you can do. Also, the "4 points" is state decided as well. Careless driving can be considered the same as Reckless driving in some states. This can be even worse in the long run. It is one that some states might acknowledge as less severe, but it is a bigger risk in the insurance world.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 1, 2006, 12:50 am

I went to court maybe 4 times on traffic related issues. The cop only didn't show up once. So in my personal experience I'd say there's more a chance of him showing up than others here would have you believe. Some places schedule court time specifically around an officers schedule and it's not like he doesn't get paid for showing up or anything...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » February 1, 2006, 1:42 am

the terrible secret of traffic court is you always lose no matter what unless the cop doesnt show up. and they schedule all cop's trials at once now and pay him to go testify for a day (and get in trouble if they don't show up because the county loses revenue) so 99% of the time they show up.

there isn't a judge on the planet that will not take the word of a police officer over the word of someone else plus 20 witnesses.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 1, 2006, 2:03 am

kyoukan wrote:there isn't a judge on the planet that will not take the word of a police officer over the word of someone else plus 20 witnesses.

Can't we all just get along?

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 1, 2006, 3:33 am

Traffic court is not the grand jury. There's a judge, some other court peoples, there will be some cops there for other cases, and prolly about 20 other suckers like yourself there. It's not very formal.

If the cop doesn't show, you're set. Be polite to the judge and don't run your fucking mouth. Given that this guy was in a van and not a stealth ticketmobile, you may just get lucky.

Know your locations and distances, and you need to memorize your local traffic code detailing a safe pass. BTW, you just might have not fully followed what the law actually says. If you can't make the facts fit, be a fucking man and go back to the clerk and beg to pay the 2 point fine.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » February 1, 2006, 5:15 am

watch a lot of matlock reruns!

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » February 1, 2006, 6:35 am

Don't mess with the cops Nez!

These things can happen!

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 1, 2006, 10:44 am

If you want to contest a ticket in MN it's nothing like this at all, weird how things can vary so much from state to state.

You used to just be able to walk into any of the dmv's in the county you got the ticket in, now you have to make an appointment (changed in the last 8-10 months). You go into a small room with one guy and argue your situation and he decides what to do with it. I have gone to do this for every ticket I have got and probably got 80% of my tickets thrown out.

The bad thing I found out the hard way, is if you miss your appointment. Once you have done this you have to go walk-in at the downtown dmv (usually a 3-5 hour wait) and talk to one of the people there. And they have a sterling reputation for not throwing tickets out at all.

miir · Post by **miir** » February 1, 2006, 11:55 am

You know what you should have done?

Gone over to the cop car, open the car door, pull him out, spit in his face, and scream at him for about 5 minutes.

Spitting on said cop would be to instigate him to hit you, then putting you in the right to "defend yourself".

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » February 1, 2006, 12:20 pm

Better hope the cop didn't have street cred, though. Seriously.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » February 1, 2006, 12:38 pm

Never forget to remind the police officer that your taxes pay his salary. That always puts them in thier place and not only will he let you go, sometimes they even clean your windshield for you too.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » February 1, 2006, 12:42 pm

It's a 1 point difference, a defensive driving course will clear my record no matter which charge I'm found guilty of.

I'm sure it varies from state to state, but my personal opinion is to save these classes for accidents and things that are the worst on insurance. You've usually got a limited number of times you can take these classes in a lifetime (5 in FL right now).

Deward · Post by **Deward** » February 1, 2006, 1:39 pm

I can tell you from personal experience that Judges will likely take a cops word over yours. If the cop doesn't show up then you win because evidence can not be brought to the trial through hearsay. Chances are good that the cop will show up though. In this case you will need to really be prepared to present your case. You are also likely not going to trial yet. I am guessing this is a pre-trial evidence hearing to determine whether it should go to trial or not. The judge will attempt to finish things here. If he refuses to dismiss the case after evidence is heard then I would request a jury trial. You might have a better chance convincing a unbiased jury than you would a single judge who is likely to side with the cop.

At your next hearing, I would create a display board showing distances between the different cars involved. Also make sure to note the weather on that day (should say on the ticket) for visibility purposes. Include where the Police car was located when he saw you and when you started and ended your pass. A diagram may make it obvious that the officer could not have seen anything, especially if you were driving a bigger vehicle.

If you can get your friend to testify, ask him/her the following questions:
1. When I made my pass did you notice a hard braking from the car I was passing?
2. How much distance would you estimate the oncoming car was from me when I completed my pass?
3. How long would you estimate it took me to complete my pass?

That should be all you need from your friend. One witness answering those questions in your favor would help immensely. The prosecution is also not likely to bother cross examining. They are too busy and just want to get the case done. If the prosecutor does question him and asks any questions related to his driving then object and say that the witnesses driving habits are not in the scope of this trial. Of course say it all very respectfully.

Under no circumstances say you were going 70 when passing. Most states I know of state that while passing is legal, you cannot exceed the speed limit when doing so.

One other thing to think about is: What exactly did you say to the cop when he came to your window? Try to write down verbatim (i.e. exactly) what the conversation was. The last time I was pulled over, the officer had an exact copy of what I said to him written on his report (I stupidly said I was late for an appointment). I hadn't expected this and it hurt my case. In the future I know to never say anything.

The above may seem a bit complicated but you will never get an attorney to bother with this case. There is almost no money in it for them. When you show up for court dress nice and be very respectful.

One other thign to note is that you will likely be held liable for all court costs the longer this continues. I have no idea what these kind of costs may be. I usually tried to settle early by talking directly with the DA.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 1, 2006, 1:50 pm

Aslanna wrote: And yeah it's legal to pull over more than one car. Fairly sure, anyway. Happened to me before.

I didn't read this entire thread but this is definately true. I was on my way from Las Vegas to Phoenix and had cruise control set at 65. It turns out the speed limit was 55 and a state trooper pulled up on me... at this point, since I still hadn't seen a speed limit sign, I figured the best thing to do was play stupid and maintain 65mph...worked! After about 5 loooong minutes, the cop pulled up beside me and flashed five, five using his hand indicating 55mph...so I slow down...about 5 mintues later I get pulled over along with five other vehicles. The cop gave the first four cars tickets, the last two in the string, of which I was one, got off ticketless. Woo!

PS, always be cooperative and nice to cops that pull you over. There's no chance of anything good happening if you're an asshole but taking the opposite approach pays off sometimes.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » February 1, 2006, 3:12 pm

You dork, you pulled yourself over. HAH!~

Pay the fine, your insurance will not increase.... you will loose more money in time in court than you will by paying the $100 fine... geesh.

It is 100% conjecture, your only way out is to find the person you passed and have them say "Nope, he was far away when he passed, I didnt need to slow for him."

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 1, 2006, 3:42 pm

Noysyrump wrote:Pay the fine, your insurance will not increase.... you will loose more money in time in court than you will by paying the $100 fine... geesh.

I call bullshit on this one. Paying the fine is admitting guilt. Admitting guilt puts the violation on your driving record. The violation on your driving record can, and most likely will, increase your insurance. What violation gets put on there affects how much of an increase will be seen.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » February 1, 2006, 7:25 pm

Hey guys thanks for all the great advice so far.

I am guessing this is a pre-trial evidence hearing to determine whether it should go to trial or not. The judge will attempt to finish things here. If he refuses to dismiss the case after evidence is heard then I would request a jury trial. You might have a better chance convincing a unbiased jury than you would a single judge who is likely to side with the cop.

The assistant DA explained the event to me, according to her (omfg she was like 25 and hot too but that's another subject entirely) she officer will be present. I'll have a chance to question him, then she'll question him. I may present witnesses - I'm not sure at what point - and then the judge will make a decision.

As I said before, the questions that I've come up with so far are:

1.) Did you intent to pull me over all along?
if yes: Why didn't you pull me over immediately after my pass then instead of waiting for my coworker to pass as well?

2.) What would have happened had I chosen to not stop so willingly? (Trying to find better wording for this one)

3.) How did you see the oncoming car hit it's brakes from behind me? (The officer was probably ~800 feet behind me. Far enough so it only looked like a white van, I couldn't see the lights on top from my car)

4.) What exactly constitutes an unsafe pass?

5.) Your suggestions here!

If the prosecutor does question him and asks any questions related to his driving then object and say that the witnesses driving habits are not in the scope of this trial. Of course say it all very respectfully.

Can I / Should I object to any questions asked to the officer about my speed during the pass? Or should I let them go?

Example: "Objection, your Honor, I'm not being charged for speeding."

One other thing to think about is: What exactly did you say to the cop when he came to your window?

Since I was late and in a hurry I told him something along the lines of "I don't think it was an unsafe pass maybe I misjudged it?"

I've been told time and time again arguing with an officer only prolongs the stop and I decided not to go that route. Probably an error on my part but I'll use the same explanation in court if this point comes up.

You dork, you pulled yourself over. HAH!~

That's pretty much it

Keep it coming if I get the charge dropped I owe it to you guys and I'll donate some sweet $'s to VV!

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » February 1, 2006, 7:54 pm

I don't have time to read everything but I did read most of the first few posts.

If the cop told you to go to court then go and if you are asked about it state what Kimoll said above.

However he may have been asking you about your record to see if you were elegible for probation. I actually did that once when I was in my 20s... in Arkansas here is how it works.

If you have no tickets on your record and get pulled over for minor speeding (less than 15 over), walking a stop sign, running a red light etc... you can go to court and ask for probation. 99.9% of the time, the judge pulls up your records, see that you have no tickets, lectures you for about 5 minutes then approves, you pay court costs and walk away with nothing on your record.

Here is the catch though. If you get another ticket withing 1 year or 18 months, can't remember which... both go on your record and oyu have to pay both fines. It's just a chance to let people who made a small mistake keep it off their insurance. It worked for me... well sorta... here's why.

The bottom line was that I didn't want to play the ticket which was $75 and I thought was BS. So I went to court did the stuff, they took the ticket and I had to pay $150 court cost (double the freakin' ticket!) Then I'm talking to my insurance guy a month or so later and he says (I think I was like 27) oh 1 ticket? That's no big deal everyone makes mistakes, we only get notifed if you get over 6 pts or have an accident... you should have save $75 and just paid the ticket, it's off your record in 3 years anways, now if you make anything mistake in the next 18 months your double screwed! At which point I merrily flipped him the bird, handed him his check and told him I would see him in a couple of month but thanks for making me feel like an idiot!

Just something to consider...

Marb

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » February 1, 2006, 7:58 pm

What Marb said is something to look into as well. I know that you can also do that in MN.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » February 1, 2006, 8:09 pm

Neziroth wrote:As I said before, the questions that I've come up with so far are:

1.) Did you intent to pull me over all along?
if yes: Why didn't you pull me over immediately after my pass then instead of waiting for my coworker to pass as well?

This question is stupid. The cop would never say "no I did not intend to pull you over" because then there would be no reason to be in court and he would look like an ass.

Neziroth wrote:2.) What would have happened had I chosen to not stop so willingly? (Trying to find better wording for this one)

Um, you'd get arrested for evading a police officer or something similar. Why be antagonostic?

Neziroth wrote:3.) How did you see the oncoming car hit it's brakes from behind me? (The officer was probably ~800 feet behind me. Far enough so it only looked like a white van, I couldn't see the lights on top from my car)

I'd ask more like... can you prove it was necessary for the oncoming car to hit its brakes -- and see below regarding looking up the LAW on the citation you were given...

Neziroth wrote:4.) What exactly constitutes an unsafe pass?

You would have been wise to research this and know exactly what it means before you even considered going to trial... Don't ask the cop, look it up on your own. Then base your questions around the statute.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » February 1, 2006, 8:14 pm

As you can see just about every state does something different. Perhaps mentioning what state you're in would net more specific helpful tips.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » February 1, 2006, 11:00 pm

Neziroth wrote:
2.) What would have happened had I chosen to not stop so willingly? (Trying to find better wording for this one)
Um, you'd get arrested for evading a police officer or something similar. Why be antagonostic?

I'm not sure if you read the part where I described the situation or not. If you didn't, read it.

I pulled over when the officer was behind the person behind me. What was to keep me from thinking "Oh, he got him he didn't want me I can go."?

That's the point I was going for. Obviously it needs to be reworded.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » February 1, 2006, 11:02 pm

By the way I'm in New York State

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » February 1, 2006, 11:52 pm

Use the "Wasn't me" defense.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » February 1, 2006, 11:53 pm

Neziroth wrote:
Neziroth wrote:
2.) What would have happened had I chosen to not stop so willingly? (Trying to find better wording for this one)
Um, you'd get arrested for evading a police officer or something similar. Why be antagonostic?
I'm not sure if you read the part where I described the situation or not. If you didn't, read it.

I pulled over when the officer was behind the person behind me. What was to keep me from thinking "Oh, he got him he didn't want me I can go."?

That's the point I was going for. Obviously it needs to be reworded.

No, I read it. If he hadn't intended you to pull over, he would have told you to move along. Or not given you a ticket. Or something else logical. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a fucking retard that responds to posts without reading them. And I have been the victim of a double-whammy pull-over incident before (where cop got 2 of us).

But your question would be antagonistic. And why piss of cop, and likely the judge, by asking questions like that?

I get your point that there is a chance he would have just let you go and tag your friend instead. But the fact that he didn't, and gave you a ticket as well, means the "what if" question is pretty irrelevant.

But what do I know... I'm just a law student.

Neziroth · Post by **Neziroth** » February 2, 2006, 12:34 am

Sirensa wrote:
Neziroth wrote:
Neziroth wrote:
2.) What would have happened had I chosen to not stop so willingly? (Trying to find better wording for this one)

Um, you'd get arrested for evading a police officer or something similar. Why be antagonostic?

I'm not sure if you read the part where I described the situation or not. If you didn't, read it.
I pulled over when the officer was behind the person behind me. What was to keep me from thinking "Oh, he got him he didn't want me I can go."?

That's the point I was going for. Obviously it needs to be reworded.

No, I read it. If he hadn't intended you to pull over, he would have told you to move along. Or not given you a ticket. Or something else logical. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a fucking retard that responds to posts without reading them. And I have been the victim of a double-whammy pull-over incident before (where cop got 2 of us).

But your question would be antagonistic. And why piss of cop, and likely the judge, by asking questions like that?

I get your point that there is a chance he would have just let you go and tag your friend instead. But the fact that he didn't, and gave you a ticket as well, means the "what if" question is pretty irrelevant.

But what do I know... I'm just a law student.

I'm not trying to insult you. I know who's a retard around here and who isn't.

From reading your response it seemed possible that you missed the fact that he pulled two of us over is all. No offense meant toward you.

But I can just sit here and picture that officer sitting in his sweet ass police van (he had to get in and out through the passenger door) after he saw me pull over too.

"Well got-dayum I got two of 'em! Sweet!"

You see where I'm coming from? Obviously it's a court and obviously lying is a major crime in court. I still don't feel that the question is a bad one, in fact it's pretty much my entire defense.

I did nothing wrong, my pass was NOT unsafe.

Should I reword it into something like "If my coworker hadn't passed at that time would you still have pulled me over?"

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » February 2, 2006, 12:44 am

I have never had an insurance company ever, once, call me up and say, "Hey we noticed you got this ticket last october, so you know, we are gonna raise your rates or somethin" My rates have gone DOWN every single time i renew my insurance, and 3 years ago, I got a dui. Did not change the trend at all. $50 a month is tits if u ask me.

Hey, is it tits thoug? anyone here pay less? if so, what state? cause soCal is like the most expensive place in teh werld joo know.

edit: VVs=666 joo gonna die if joo read dis!~

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » February 2, 2006, 12:55 am

"Wasn't me, your Honor."

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » February 2, 2006, 1:01 am

Neziroth wrote:You see where I'm coming from? Obviously it's a court and obviously lying is a major crime in court. I still don't feel that the question is a bad one, in fact it's pretty much my entire defense.

I did nothing wrong, my pass was NOT unsafe.

Should I reword it into something like "If my coworker hadn't passed at that time would you still have pulled me over?"

If you did nothing wrong, that is your defense. I'd argue that, and not piss off the cop by questioning whether he would have let you go, because that is IRRELEVANT. The fact is - he didn't.

Hypothetically -- A cop could let you drive right on past him doing 90 MPH. The fact that he did not pull you over does NOT mean that you are innocent.

Arguing that you are innocent because he might not have pulled you over if you hadn't stopped on your own proves does not prove you actually are innocent.

Look up the statute, argue your facts do not fall within its provisions.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » February 2, 2006, 2:19 am

Sirensa wrote:
Neziroth wrote:You see where I'm coming from? Obviously it's a court and obviously lying is a major crime in court. I still don't feel that the question is a bad one, in fact it's pretty much my entire defense.

I did nothing wrong, my pass was NOT unsafe.

Should I reword it into something like "If my coworker hadn't passed at that time would you still have pulled me over?"
If you did nothing wrong, that is your defense. I'd argue that, and not piss off the cop by questioning whether he would have let you go, because that is IRRELEVANT. The fact is - he didn't.

Hypothetically -- A cop could let you drive right on past him doing 90 MPH. The fact that he did not pull you over does NOT mean that you are innocent.

Arguing that you are innocent because he might not have pulled you over if you hadn't stopped on your own proves does not prove you actually are innocent.

Look up the statute, argue your facts do not fall within its provisions.

This is good advice.

Additionally, show up on time, be clean, be polite, state your case earnestly and concisely and without rancor.

The only question even remotely worthwhile is asking the police officer if he was in a good position to judge the speed and distances involved. You aren't trying to call him a liar just allowing the judge an element of latitude to rule in your favor.

Finally, hope for an element of luck. Sometimes the officer cannot make the court date and the ticket will be thrown out if he doesn't show

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » February 2, 2006, 10:57 am

Noysyrump wrote:I have never had an insurance company ever, once, call me up and say, "Hey we noticed you got this ticket last october, so you know, we are gonna raise your rates or somethin" My rates have gone DOWN every single time i renew my insurance, and 3 years ago, I got a dui. Did not change the trend at all. $50 a month is tits if u ask me.

Then it sounds like your company just doesn't pull an MVR every renewal. Many companies don't like to see the DUI on there. Some will non-renew your policy, others may double it. Also, in California, once they "know" about your DUI, you would lose any Good Driver discount. That can cause your rates to easilly double based on many other factors as well.

*edit* Oh, and the State of California has said that the DUI can affect your eligibility for the discount for 10 years if it happened on or after 01/01/1999

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 2, 2006, 5:39 pm

Cops get away with anything. No speed limits for them!

LONDON (Reuters) - A British traffic officer caught driving at 159 mph but cleared by a court of speeding and dangerous driving faces a legal move at the High Court in London Wednesday to convict him.

The Attorney General will appeal against the acquittal of constable Mark Milton and seek a High Court order that the advanced police driver should be convicted over his high speed blast in the early hours of December 5, 2003.

Milton, a qualified advanced driver, was recorded by an onboard camera in his upgraded unmarked Vauxhall Vectra police car traveling at 91 mph in a 30 mph zone and hitting 159 mph on the M54 motorway. The legal limit in Britain is 70 mph.

Milton's defense, accepted by the local judge in May 2005, was that he had taken the car on a test run around Telford, Shropshire, where he was based.

The judge said the prosecution had failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he had driven dangerously and that the car was being "used for police purposes" when the incident occurred.

The ruling prompted outrage in the media and condemnation from motoring groups.

Wednesday, lawyers for the Attorney General will argue the district judge erred in law when he made his judgment.