Liberal vow to ban handguns if elected...

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » December 8, 2005, 8:44 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canadavotes2006 ... -guns.html

I have a co-worker who owns legitimate and licensed handguns and shoots competitively and he's pissed. Canada doesn't have a gun problem, we have a gang violence problem.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » December 8, 2005, 8:50 pm

Roving gangs of Eskimoes harpooning everything in sight?

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » December 8, 2005, 8:54 pm

Roving gangs of dumbass kids is more like it.

I really would have no problem with this normally is it wasn't for innocent bystanders that get taken out occasionally.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 8, 2005, 9:32 pm

Given the whole fire-arms registry fiasco I'm not convinced that making a promise that will recall that whole mess to the publics mind is actually a clever tactical move...

*Hugs*
Varia

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » December 8, 2005, 10:25 pm

Harper said it best "I would ban handguns too if I thought it would make a difference"

adicus · Post by **adicus** » December 9, 2005, 1:01 am

it wouldnt make a difference. a great deal of gun crimes happen with "illegal or unregistered" guns. laws are like locks, they just keep honest people honest

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » December 9, 2005, 3:06 am

Well just another stupid promise in an election campaign thats full of them on all sides.

Harper promises are more reminiscent of the Mulroney spending sprees than Manning's promises of fiscal conscience (which created enough pressure that even the Liberals finally jumped on board and cut the deficit).

Layton continues to pander to his base with disregard for the impact it will have on others outside it (i.e. lets tax the oil industry since they don't vote NDP as a means of solving the softwood lumber dispute).

Martin, well, he comes up with this, in the pattern of the most idiotic piece of federal legislation in the past 20 years (the registry). Wonder if he's convinced Alan Rockhead to come out of political retirement and run for him in whatever part of Ontario that moron calls home...

Kilrain · Post by **Kilrain** » December 9, 2005, 3:07 am

This is just another demonstration of how out of touch the Liberal party is with the country, its issues and its people.

Ban handguns? Does Martin seriously think that the ones committing assaults, robberies and murders using handguns are all of a sudden going to say, "Oh my God, owning a hand gun is illegal now? I better come up with a different plan to rob that bank!" What a joke.

The only thng this does, besides make any reasonably intelligent person laugh, is punish the gun owners who are NOT a threat to society while doing absolutely nothing towards curtailing crime.

Conservatives on the other hand have taken a much more practical approach. Pressing for more severe punishments on all gun crimes by instituting a minimum sentencing; furthermore, those found guilty of crimes will not get out on bail so easily, so we won't have a repeat of the recent murder in Toronto where a young punk was arrested a month ago for an illegal firearm, was released on bail and murdered a car salesman 3 weeks later. AND, anyone that is in Canada illegally and who is ordered deported WILL actually get deported -- what a novel concept.

Combine that with increased funding to the Provinces and jurisdictions to put frontline police officers on the streets where they are needed and you'll see a change.

Rocket science? To a Liberal, maybe.

The Liberals are as far off on this as they are with their day care platform, and tax reduction plan.

You have to love the day care though: The Liberals are going to funnel 11 billion dollars over 10 years to the Provincial governments to handle the problem - so the Provincial goverments can make sure that it's wasted before ever actually doing anything for anyone. Ok, I digress. So lets say some of it doesn't get wasted... even then you are only helping 22% of the population that actually uses an institutional day care system to take care of their children. What about the other 78% of parents who choose NOT to use that system? (ie. those who work nightshifts, stay home moms, stay home dads, grandparents who look after kids during the day etc) Shouldn't all those families benefit too? Afterall, they're paying their taxes just as much as the next family.

Not a big issue, some may say: I say it is issues like this, so called 'sleeper issues', that change the results come election day. One party gets it, and the other clearly does not.

Separatism. Only a Liberal would dare have the arrogance to think that this is a sure win for them to sway voters. To think that they are actually trying to woo the Quebec voters by claiming they are the only ones to defend Federalism in this country -- they created the bloody problem to begin with. No government in history has caused more division in Quebec, not to mention Alberta, than this Liberal government and its parent government over the past 12 years.

If there is another Quebec referandum the blame will clearly fall on the liberal party for doing absolutely nothing, zilch, zero, nadda since the last one in 95 to try to rectify anything in Quebec... and the sponsorship scandal simply made matters far worse.

But if that wasn't bad enough, they successfully managed to piss off a sizable chunk of the Alberta population to boot. Maybe if Ontario is stupid enough to vote the Liberals back in again we can have a two for one sale on the referandum ballots... get them printed front and back... one for Quebec and one for Alberta.

It's time to kick the lying sacks of shit to the curb.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 9, 2005, 4:55 am

I really dont know why the liberals are so obsessed with gun control. poll after poll has shown that its basically a non-issue with canadians.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 9, 2005, 2:38 pm

Saw an awesome headline....

Handgun Ban Plan Panned

While, I don't think a handgun ban is a bad idea in itself, I think stiffer penalties need to be implemented for the possesion of and the use of a handgun used in the commision of a crime should be priority.

I really dont know why the liberals are so obsessed with gun control. poll after poll has shown that its basically a non-issue with canadians.

It's actually a very 'front-and-center' issue in Ontario. Toronto has seen an alarming increase in gun violence in the past year.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » December 9, 2005, 4:27 pm

miir wrote:It's actually a very 'front-and-center' issue in Ontario. Toronto has seen an alarming increase in gun violence in the past year.

I think most of us are aware of this and its alarming to see the increase but the fact remains we already HAVE strict control over firearms. We have stricter control over handguns. Its not like anybody can just go buy one at Walmart. There are firearms safety courses, prohibited weapons certifications needed (including more intensive background checks than are required for FACs), etc already required. We might eliminate some more target shooters but most of them don't keep the things at home to begin with: the keep them at a gunclub/range because of the existing laws for storage and transportation. This idea is a wish, like the reigstry and will be about as effective.

And one other thing that bothers me about the public reactions is why do people key on gun crimes rather than violent crime? If a gang banger stabs or bludgeons some other kid to death he's still dead. Why do people demand harsher penalties for gun-related incidents? A violent crime is a violent crime and an object used to commit one is a weapon.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 9, 2005, 4:41 pm

And one other thing that bothers me about the public reactions is why do people key on gun crimes rather than violent crime? If a gang banger stabs or bludgeons some other kid to death he's still dead. Why do people demand harsher penalties for gun-related incidents? A violent crime is a violent crime and an object used to commit one is a weapon.

Bludgeoning someone to death with a bat/pipe/fists or stabbing someone is a lot more hazardous for the attacker because the victim has the potential to fight back or run away.

Guns are a lot more impersonal.
You don't have to get up-close, you don't have to get your hands 'dirty'.

A criminal who uses a gun to commit a murder is a lot less likely to show remorse than one who uses a melee weapon. It's easier for them to disconnect themselves from the reality of the situation if there is no physcal contact between themselves and the victim. There's been loads of studies on this.

A gun is much more likely to turn a petty criminal into a murderer than a bat or a knife.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » December 9, 2005, 5:00 pm

Thats largely irrelevant: when someone is dead, does it matter that the killer shows remorse? They still took a life. Someone's son/daughter/sister/brother/husband/wife/father/mother won't be coming home again. Do it make a difference to the person who's life was stolen that it was a gun vs knife or anything else?

As inaccurate as most handguns are without a lot of practice or training you have to be close range for them to kill too. I can buy the impersonal thing more with rifles/shotguns than pistols.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 9, 2005, 5:15 pm

Thats largely irrelevant: when someone is dead, does it matter that the killer shows remorse?

Well, yeah. It does.

If some punk kid murders someone with a gun and has no remorse, they are much more likely to kill again. It has about as much psychological effect as shooting another player in BF2 or Counterstrike.
There is no physical connection between your action and the consequences. Point and shoot, they fall down, you run away.

The psychological effect of killing someone with your bare hands or with a melee weapon can be devastating. Unless the killer has serious mental problems, repeated offences are a lot less likely. The psychological trauma of beating someone to death with your bare hands has gotta be pretty fucking powerful.

As inaccurate as most handguns are without a lot of practice or training you have to be close range for them to kill too. I can buy the impersonal thing more with rifles/shotguns than pistols.

A handgun requires little training to be accurate when used from a range of 10 feet or less. Even that range is enough to disconnect yourself from the repercussions of your actions.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 9, 2005, 7:36 pm

So the laws should be based on distance from target? We've rehashed guns many times here, and that's not one I had heard before. I should make sure not to throw knives anymore since the punishment could be more extreme!

miir · Post by **miir** » December 9, 2005, 7:46 pm

Boogahz wrote:So the laws should be based on distance from target? We've rehashed guns many times here, and that's not one I had heard before. I should make sure not to throw knives anymore since the punishment could be more extreme!

My point was the following:

A person who uses a firearm in the commision of a crime, specifically murder, is more likely to be a repeat offender than one who uses a melee weapon because the psychological impact is far less acute. (That's basically the reason criminals favor guns over bats and knives)

Therefore the punishment for the use of a firearm (specifically handguns) in the commision of a crime (specifically a violent crime) should be greater.
It's debatable if harsher penalties are an effective deterant, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 9, 2005, 9:59 pm

miir wrote:It's actually a very 'front-and-center' issue in Ontario. Toronto has seen an alarming increase in gun violence in the past year.

an extreme majority of those crimes are commited with illegal handguns imported from other countries.

there are tons of gun crimes in vancouver too, especially between chinese and korean gangs and sometimes the hell's angels, and sometimes even by just thugs and retarded wiggers, but hardly any of those guns are legal either. a gun registry or handgun ban isn't going to curb these crimes.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 10, 2005, 12:52 am

kyoukan wrote:
miir wrote:It's actually a very 'front-and-center' issue in Ontario. Toronto has seen an alarming increase in gun violence in the past year.
an extreme majority of those crimes are commited with illegal handguns imported from other countries.

there are tons of gun crimes in vancouver too, especially between chinese and korean gangs and sometimes the hell's angels, and sometimes even by just thugs and retarded wiggers, but hardly any of those guns are legal either. a gun registry or handgun ban isn't going to curb these crimes.

Which is why I said:

While, I don't think a handgun ban is a bad idea in itself, I think stiffer penalties need to be implemented for the possesion of and the use of a handgun used in the commision of a crime should be priority.