Never heard of this before, pretty shitty thing for a military force to do.
In August 2002, a 19-year-old Palestinian student, Nidal Daraghmeh, was killed in such an incident in the West Bank town of Tubas.
At the time, troops called Daraghmeh out of his house and forced him to knock at the door of a neighboring building where a senior Hamas fugitive was hiding out. Gunfire erupted and Daraghmeh was killed.
Where would you look then? Since many of the posters have been so blatantly brainwashed through constant media propoganda into believing even the most ridiculous lies (WMD in Iraq - told you so?) it could be interesting to read something you feel is a little less of a "babble" than logical rational thought.
Nick wrote:Yeah, Israel have shown time and time again over the last 40 off years how much of a benevolent reasonable bunch they are
I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with having to deal with such benevolent and reasonable bunches of people on every one of their borders...
I haven't seen anyone here claiming that the Israelis have "benevolent and reasonable" neighbours (there has been a certain amount of sympathy expressed at times, for the Palestinians who were uprooted when the modern state of Israel was created, which is a different thing). However, the fact that they were resorting to using tactics like "Human Shields" and using civilians in this fashion erodes any moral high ground they want to claim: it should be considered a war crime/crime against humanity, if it is not already
Wulfran Moondancer
Stupid Sidekick of the Lambent Dorf
Petitioner to Club Bok Bok
Founding Member of the Barbarian Nation Movement
Actually there are quite a few here that are completely willing to overlook the atrocities leveled against any Israeli so while specifically not saying their neigherbors are just jolly ol' people, a point is always made to how amoral Israel is.
"Expressed at times" please. A more thorough understanding of the climate the Jews were facing during the times leading up to and after the creation of Israel by quite a few individuals who beep bop around these boards might also be helpful in feeling even a touch of sympathy towards the Jews who were already in those lands during the time a state was finally established.
Human shields are wrong. Blowing up a bus of cilivians or civilians eating in a cafe, or at a nightclub, or at services during a high holy day, or studying at a University, or in a hotel celebrating their child's Bar Mitzvah is also wrong. But none of that is accountable as a war crime I guess.
Israel wasn't created out of thin air. It was created out of the Palestinian Mandate from the remnants of the Ottoman Empire administered by the UK following World War I.
The Balfour Declaration in 1917 declared that a Palestinian state as well as a Jewish state would be established in Palestine.
That being said, giving people somebody else's land because they have a religious claim to it - where the original inhabitants have the same claim - is stupid.
Quite frankly, i'm moderately impressed with how Israel has managed to convince the west that their claim is legitimate. when your fundamental premise is "we are god's chosen people", that seems like a tough place to start coalition building from
They are clearly horrific atrocities, I however can understand fine well why a Palestinian who has been subject to nearly the worst type of oppression that exists in the world today may feel like taking some vengeance.
That doesn't mean the innocent Israeli's who suffer in bus attacks deserve it.
It is however the same with the US/UK and "terrorists". Terrorist attacks are AWFUL things, no one in their right mind would disagree to that fact, however, it is obvious that the UK/Uk/Israeli governments bring these attacks on their citizens by ignoring legitimate grievances from certain groups (in this case Palestinians) and antagonizing them to the point where they snap, or just invading their country for like half a century and destroying the peoples homes, massacring them, not allowing them basic human rights etc (I.E what Israel has been doing).
Voronwë wrote: when your fundamental premise is "we are god's chosen people", that seems like a tough place to start coalition building from
The fundemental premise behind the idea of a Jewish state was created to leave behind the persecution they were apart of throughout much of the late 19th century in Europe. It's a little deeper than your flippant remark.
Terrorist attacks are AWFUL things, no one in their right mind would disagree to that fact, however, it is obvious that the UK/Uk/Israeli governments bring these attacks on their citizens by ignoring legitimate grievances from certain groups (in this case Palestinians) and antagonizing them to the point where they snap, or just invading their country for like half a century and destroying the peoples homes, massacring them, not allowing them basic human rights etc (I.E what Israel has been doing).
Regardless of whatever "legitimate grievances" the Palestinians may have, you consistently remove any accountability they and their neighbors may have had since just before the six day war. A co-existing statehood was never Palestinian leadership's goal, it was the eradication of Israel. The situation is far more out of control these days as a result.
This coming from a guy who lives in a country that is about a hairsbreadth from being a police state.
Don't tell others how to clean their house until you get yours straight. Fucking Euros.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
I understand that the European Jews experienced persecution and anti-Semitism was a big thing (and still is) in Europe for a long time. I really have no idea why.
And yes as a response to that, the Zionist movement gained momentum towards establishing the state of Israel. It wasn't the benevolence of Europe though I don't think. I think it was sheer political will and determination of members of the European jewish community - but maybe i'm wrong.
Regardless, i think we agree on all of those things. Perhaps I should have emphasized that I think the UK created a fair amount of the problem with the manner in which they executed their mandate.
i don't really know why the neighboring Arab states had such vitriolic hatred for Israel, but I would imagine it had something to do with they viewed it as Europeans basically colonizing the Holy Lands. Pretty understandable interpretation of events as well.
The UK government is way further down the path to Oceania than the US is. Constant video surveillance? Check. Banned weaponry from the masses? Check. Looks like the stage is set, and what could you fags do about it? Yeah, ask the Chinese how effective protest is against tanks.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
masteen wrote:The UK government is way further down the path to Oceania than the US is. Constant video surveillance? Check. Banned weaponry from the masses? Check. Looks like the stage is set, and what could you fags do about it? Yeah, ask the Chinese how effective protest is against tanks.
About as effective as Floridas offense against Alabama's Defense!
OH BURN!
ROLL TIDE!
HAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHA
This shit goes so far back shit had the time to turn into oil pumped up by Saudies!
Historically there was a Jewsih kingdom. Ruled bu Saul, David unt Salomon! Then the Romans came in neat formations around year 60-66 before christ and produced perilous peril and destroyed it. Judeen - Rome, 0-1! The ultimate end for Judeen came when the Romans, again in very neat formations, chrushed Bar Kohkbas rebellion in 135. Judeen-Rome 0-2! Allthough the Jews count their embezzlement from around year 70.
They left their "country" ( since nation was a vague term of geographically possesion during this stage of human civilization imho).
Now a quick jump to the 19th century. During this time nationalism was the new thing to cheer for. Thus old dreams about an Jewish state was reborn and Sionism created. A significant writing was Theodor Herz's "Der Judenstaat", that made things moving. The year after this writing went into printing Herzl managed to summon the first Sionistic world congress. Here they founded "The World Zionist Foundation", and they declared in the Baselprogramme that "through official right guarantee a home in Palestine".
During the first world war Herzl got replaced by Weizmann and he went through with the Balfourdeclaration. Voronwe explained this in his post and forward.
So for example Sweden should repopulate Preussen because it was Swedish? The examples can be endless...
Your government is about one subway bombing from enacting legislation that makes the Patriot Act look like the bill of rights. 90 days detention OF CITIZENS without ANY explanation needed? Check.
But keep trying Teeny.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Yes, I can imagine that having much relevance in Northern Ireland. Where actual guilty terrorists are allowed to walk the streets anyway.
It's as close to anarchy as you will get in the UK, and if you avoid the shitty estates (IE ghettoes or whatever you call it) it's fairly peaceful, unless there is some ridiculous blow up like what happened about a month ago.
The Jews whooped some ass and took what they wanted. Their neighbors said "Fuk that shit" and banded together to kick some ass, but got thouroughly trounced. A few years later they try again. Trounced.
Kudos to Isreal. And when they go slap Iran for playin with nukes I'll be rootin for Isreal as the good guys!
Sometimes when the enemy plays dirty, you have to play dirty too. Its not nice but you have to to get the job done.
