Political analysts advise libs to stay in the closet to win

[Adex_Xeda]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051006/D8D2JOFO8.html

WASHINGTON (AP) - To regain political power Democrats must abandon favorite election myths, adopt a strong position on national defense and pick candidates who connect with average voters, two political analysts from the party said Thursday.

Political scientists Elaine Kamarck and William Galston, both Democrats, warned that the most important first step is to abandon beliefs they describe as "election myths."

The report, done for the moderate Democratic strategy group Third Way, compared the current situation to 1989, when they wrote a report that mapped a centrist strategy for Democrats.

The said the current "myths" are:

_The belief Democrats can win if they just do a great job of mobilizing their base. Republicans have improved at mobilizing their own base, so Democrats need to do more than that.

_The theory demographic changes over time will make Democrats a majority, a questionable concept with the Hispanic vote increasingly up for grabs.

_The belief Democrats can succeed politically if they simply learn to talk more effectively about their positions.

_The strategy of avoiding cultural issues, playing down national security and changing the subject to domestic issues. National security is too dominant a concern now.

The report noted Republican gains among married people, Catholics, Hispanics and women during the last presidential election.

Democrats must choose to appeal to a broader majority that includes many moderates, said Galston, a political scientist at the University of Maryland.

The Democrats also must develop a coherent foreign policy because "we just don't have one," said Kamarck, a political scientist at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.

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Liberals have to pretend to be conservatives to win. I can't help but laugh.

If you look at history, our country cycles between being very conservative and being very liberal every 20 years or so. I guess at this point the pendulum has swung quite a bit into the conservative realm.



But in all seriousness, I would LOVE to see the democratic party revive itself, perhaps even take on some ideals that might give me two choices instead of one. Hell I'd even like to see a viable 3rd party.

[Zaelath]

If Bush can pretend to be a conservative to win, why can't the Democratic candidate?

It's not really about that anyway, it's about working out what stances will get you the most votes. Not all classical conservative "ideals" are that popular in the broader community, it's just that if a conservative candidate gets into office the far right thinks they have a mandate for a return to the 50's. Certainly, Bush doesn't seem to give a rat's ass that conservatives aren't supposed to spend money like it's someone else's problem.

[Adex_Xeda]

I agree with you.

Republicans were very fiscally conservative..... right up until they got the majority power. Now they slop the pork around like a pack of old time democrats.


We have only ourselves to blame. We re-elect people who give our districts pork, even if it negatively effects people outside our localities.

Even here, you can trace the wrongdoing back to our personal selfish choices.

[kyoukan]

Liberals have to pretend to be conservatives to win.

Someone needs to act conservative. Lord knows the fucking republicans aren't.

[Adex_Xeda]

tax cuts and crazy spending, or tax hikes and crazy spending.

What a lowsy choice either way.

[Marbus]

Crazy spending? GWB is the poster child for crazy spending! When was the last time a Democrat did "crazy spending"? Clinton sure as hell didn't... that's the myths and lies the GOP is telling you... look up the facts you will see a different story.

But if they DID have crazy spending, give me tax hikes with crazy spending ANY day of the week rather than getting trillions of dollars in debt to the ONLY other nation in the world that is a serious threat... You can't have "crazy" spending and balance the budget... and especially not have a freakin' surplus so that the stupid republicans can screw our children over AND line their own pockets while duping the average "value voter" in to thinking that they actually give a shit.

All those anti-abortion bone heads that voted for Bush while their kids are now suffering in schools that can't function because of "no child left behind", the friends are off fighting and dying in a sensless war and they are close to loosing their job because the economy sucks worse now than it did last year... all those morons need to wake up! Bush isn't on your side, he is a lying greedy cheat that used your dumb ass to get he and his cronies 4 more years. People can profess ALL kinds of values and beliefs but if their actions don't show it, the change isn't there.

I'm against abortion but this is a secular government with FREEDOM of Religion. However even if I did want it outlawed I read, and I look at the facts... the writing was on the wall then that Bush was a lying cheat... now he is doing the same to his man consitiuant group... serves'em right.

I'm sad for my brothers but maybe this will make some of them wake up and realize that the basis of the Republican party is Anti YES, Anti Christian... you can profess values but if you don't believe in the basics of helping your fellow man and Christian, what are you worth?

Marb

[kyoukan]

no "liberal" (and I define liberal by your standards - everyone on the planet that doesnt hate queers and thinks jesus whispers to him at night) has even remotely come anywhere near to the amount of spending reagan and GWB has. Not even near.

Do you actually pay less taxes now than you did 10 years ago? the answer is no, you don't.

[Zaelath]

I'm sad for my brothers but maybe this will make some of them wake up and realize that the basis of the Republican party is Anti YES, Anti Christian... you can profess values but if you don't believe in the basics of helping your fellow man and Christian, what are you worth?

Catholic?

[Adex_Xeda]

I wish we were neighbors Kyo. We could have a BBQ and diffuse incorrect assumptions.

[Adex_Xeda]

Marbus, I've learned long ago that helping your fellow man is best done outside of the government. I say keep the government small and the private charities and churches big.

Look at the hurricanes, who was on the ground first with low overhead helping people the day after? Private charities and churches.

The liberal philosophy says government should do it.
The conservative philosophy says that the individual and private organisations should do it.

When you look at recent events, they show that private orgs do a better job. You have to look outside of the government to find a conservative's commitment to social welfare.

[Adex_Xeda]

Consider this Marb,

If you give money to a charity and later find out that they were wasteful with your money, you have the freedom to move your money to a better charity.

If you are taxed by the government and that tax money goes to something wasteful, you have no freedom to shift the money taxed from you to a better alternative.

This principle is compounded all over the place in government.

This is why government isn't good at social welfare. Low performance incentives and low flexiblity for better methods.

[nobody]

It's not really about that anyway, it's about working out what stances will get you the most votes.

it SHOULDN'T be about that though. for either party. if more politicians ran on what they REALLY believed instead of what they felt would keep them in power then we would have more choices.

[Marbus]

Nah I'm Presbyterian. We believe that all Christian Churches are part of the Body of Christ, hence the use of the word brothers.

We also believe that the main purpose of the Church is to take care of the "Body of Christ" who in turns primary goal should be to Love God and Love thy Neighbor. To "love" God is to seek to do His will, His will is for us to Love and take care of one another... to me that is the whole point of the New Testament (and many OT stories as well). Strangly enough... many people seem to have missed that point and are more concerned with laws, rules and telling people what to do.

If you actually read the Gosples it's apparent that many people, even his own desciples for most of his life, didn't get it (especially in the Book of Mark). So maybe it's not too much of a streatch realize that many of those who call themselves Christians don't get it either. Jesus did away with the "Law" per se from the Old Testament. Man's relationship with God, or the ability to even have one was forever changed and allowed.

That is the key and the most powerful and wonderful thing Christanity could ever teach. Through Christ's death and resurrection, any man was finally able to have a direct relationship with God if they would only seek it(Grace through faith). Once you have that, truly have that you don't need to worry about the "rules" because your heart is changed. Dosen't mean you don't screw up, don't do things from time to time that may hurt yourself and others because we are human and will make mistakes, however that shouldn't be the main desire and won't be... but it's not just a simple run down the isle, say a quick prayer, do a little jig, get dunked and wham you are done forever. A truly life changing experience will make you want to learn more, do more and do his will (the taking care of others part).

As stated perviously, to me, fromt the above statements and understanding the core Republican values that man/business in general will do the right thing if left alone are diametricly opposed to the core Christian beliefs. If man/business will do the right thing when left alone, why would you need God? You can dupe people into believing that because you come out against one or two moral issues that you somehow believe the same... and obviously some people, ok MANY people have actually fallen for it. However upon truly examining both belief systems you will find that they are incompatible. What I don't understand is that even without truly examining the core values you would think the average person could understand that Big Business, Greed and War aren't Christian values... oh well.

Marb

[Marbus]

Adex, I can see what you are saying but I would say that both have failed and both have come through.

The problem with only having Churches or small groups do things is that they don't have the power of the Federal Governmnet. That being said I'm not opposed to giving the States more money and power and letting them do it instead.

The other problems with having Religious organizations be the primary is because not all Religions believe the same and this is a country founded on Religious freedom.

I once believed exactly like you do, as I have said before I was moving up fast in the Republican party, then I saw the light. I believed the Government couldn't do it correctly. One of the things I found was it's very easy to keep that view when 1. everyone around you buys into it as well 2. you are told all other views are somehow "bad" 3. you don't study other systems of government throughout the world.

MANY ofther countries do take care of their people, do provide for them and do a wonderful job at it. The Republicans will tell you these people don't truly have freedom and pay too much tax. Yet upon examination you will find that we pay almost the same amount of tax yet get nothing for it and have the same "freedoms" to start their own business and experience the dream of bettering themselves.

As a fiscial liberal I do want to make sure you guys understand I don't necessarly believe we have to have a big governemnt. I think we should have a government that is as small as possible, cut out all the red tape and as many layers as BS as possible. "Big Government" doesn't necessarly have to literally be "BIG" it just has to work in the best interest of the people.

Marb

[nobody]

what it comes down to for me is choice. the freedom to choose for myself how to spend my money. that is why i side with republicans on economics. and the freedom to choose how to live my life moraly. that is why i side with democrats on moral issues.

[Sylvos]

no "liberal" (and I define liberal by your standards - everyone on the planet that doesnt hate queers and thinks jesus whispers to him at night) has even remotely come anywhere near to the amount of spending reagan and GWB has. Not even near.

Do you actually pay less taxes now than you did 10 years ago? the answer is no, you don't.

3/4ths of the VV crowd 10 years ago were 8-12 so I doubt they were paying taxes at all.

[Voronwë]

I'm not an expert but i know the Democratic Party needs to totally revamp their message, their organization, their platforms, the manner in which they target voters, the manner in which they interact with interest groups, the manner in which they raise money, and so on.

They are so weak, they can't seize on debacle after debacle by the Bush administration. This president is completely hamfisted in every regard, shy of hooking up his financial backers with massive amounts of taxpayer assets. And the democrats barely do shit about it.

The Senate Majority Leader, Bill Frist, is under investigation, can't control his ranks and is politically, somewhat clumsy. Tom Delay is a legitimate criminal and the man runs half of Washington.

And the Democrats can't even scratch an extra seat here or there. The party is a joke of an organization. If it wasn't for Clinton, they wouldn't have done a damn thing in the last 30 years.

[Marbus]

Damn Voronwe, you're right but you didn't have clue in all the Republicans reading this board!

Marb

[masteen]

God is less important than the least of the GOP lobbyists. Corporations are free to do whatever the fuck they want, from fraudulent accounting practices to environmental damage on a global scale, but as long as Sen. Hatch and company get their annual campaign contributions it's all good in Jesusland. Cause Dubya talks to God, dontcha know.

[Animale]

The main problem with relying upon charities/business and the like is that they, in general, lack the necessary tools for truly long term investment.

Since its an area I'm familiar with, lets use scientific research spending as an example. In industry, if you don't have a project that can realistically become a product within 5 years, it is dropped by the wayside and not funded. Charities, such as the American Cancer Society, have such a narrow focus that they cannot see the bigger longterm picture outside of their area of interest. Thus, government (non-military) is the only group in the US currently that is able/willing to look at the BIG picture, with a view toward return on investment 20-30 or even more years down the road. This years Nobel prizes in both Physics and Chemistry were awarded for basic research done from the 1960's to early 1990's, which were funded largely by governmental grants. This basic research was not done with a product in mind, but only to expand our understanding of the processes that they were examining. It so happened that this understanding (of certain optical effect for the physics prize and certain chemical reactivities for the chemistry prize) has led to improvements in laser optics and drug/polymer synthesis - but that was NOT the focus of the research at the time.

The shift in government funding of the past 5-10 years has been to move AWAY from this longterm view of research, and make it more like "business modeled" research. Thus, longterm investment is harder and harder to come by, with the focus moving to "5 years to product" type research. Not that this isn't bad, but the corporate world already is fulfilling that niche. We NEED to return to the science funding model of the cold war, because if we don't it will be the countries that ARE focusing on long term basic research (Japan, China, India, most of Europe) that will be on the leading edge of technology in 10-20 years. The world will have left us by the wayside.

Animale

[Voronwë]

God is less important than the least of the GOP lobbyists. Corporations are free to do whatever the fuck they want, from fraudulent accounting practices to environmental damage on a global scale, but as long as Sen. Hatch and company get their annual campaign contributions it's all good in Jesusland. Cause Dubya talks to God, dontcha know.

The Republican Party has done an amazing job of convincing rural, middle-American, White Christians to vote for the economic interests of an entirely different, dissenterested class of people - affluent, ultra-rich, urban, corporate types.

"good man, good heart"

that's all they have to know. And they amble on throughout their lives completely oblivious to the fact that they are selling out their interest in health care, devalueing their labor, and so forth.

It is more important to this administration to have pharmaceutical companies make MORE than the market value for their products than it is for the Medicare/Medicaid (ie almost all seniors) to be able to pool together and use the economic leverage represented by their numbers to get a price that is good for them, and still allows the Pharm companies to make money.

You can go on, and on and on.

How much anti-abortion legislation has the Republican party even put up for a vote in the last 10 years?

none.

with a majority in both houses, and the "political capital" from the White House.

he doesn't even nominate an anti-Roe activist in Roberts. Roberts is going to view Roe v. Wade as established law, even if he doesn't believe there is a constituional basis for the rite to privacy.

[Voronwë]

anybody who thinks industry would ever duplicate the medical and technological infrastructure that has arisen thanks to the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health i think is sadly mistaken.

We have the largest government investment in the biological sciences in the world, and that is why the best biologists from all over the planet come to work in the United States and develope technologies that are the foundation of the largest growth industry of this century.

Publically traded companies don't tend to invest in long term, infrastructure like research. They do love to pick up on decades of government funded research and run with it, once it has reached an exciting point.

what do Pharmaceutical companies spend their money marketing and researching? Lots of stuff.

but what are the commercials you see the most?

erectile dysfunction. because it makes money fools!!! loads of it. And the less peckers work, the probably better off we all are. there are enough people as it is

[masteen]

... rite to privacy.

Is that similar to the Rites of Spring? And how long have you been into witchcraft?

[Voronwë]

hehe

i will say it is a bad idea to have people who don't believe in dinosaurs having any say in disbursing dollars to critical medical research...


THEY DO NOT BELIEVE DINOSAURS ARE REAL!!

We think countries like Iran are backwards, yet we have fundamentalist delusional persons running the ship here. HELLO!!!

[Marbus]

My son is going to a Catholic pre-school right now, he is a little young but advanced for his age so they let him in early. Anyway he is learning a lot of educational skills and some stuff about God as well... exactly what I wanted. It's humourous that people always joke about "Catholic" school but the ones here are very laid back compared to 20 years ago. Yes, once you get into elementary school you go to mass once a month, use to be once a week or daily. They have music and art education as well which is left out of many public schools, a short religion class etc... however in HS they actually teach scientific theory, the scientific method etc... and Evolution. Maybe it's like I always say and one of the Roman Cardinals said a few weeks ago "There is nothing in the theory of evolution that necessarily conflicts with the Biblical creation story." While I will probably keep Joseph there through Kindergarten, I may send him there through HS, no idea yet.

However the thought prompted me to find out a little more about some of the other private schools here in town. I have some friends that I work with who are sending their kids to Conway Christian. A place I wouldn't sent my kids just because I have an aquantence who worked there for a while but was fired because he "mentioned" evolution, they are only taught creationism... I'm sure they will do well in College. However the site I was looking at had ALL the schools so when I got to this one I thought I would read up a little more on them. To my astonishment, and perhaps it shouldn't have been, I saw that they have all these connections and teach from some books published through Bob Jones University...

Vor is talking about some of these people not believing in Dinos... well yea that's pretty ignorant but at Bob Jones University there are ACTUALLY..., heh... whew, heh, there are ACTUALLY people there who are actually professors in... something... that are soooo fundamentalist in regards to the Old Testament that they teach, hahah, they teach that the WORLD IS FLAT! NO NO NO... I'm not joking. There are actually people who still believe the world is FLAT!

I can actually fathom that someone could say... well they are just bones, could have been something else... so I don't believe in Dinos... sure I would think they were wacked but I might could understand it... but how, how could ANYONE believe that the world is flat?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Do these people not know anyone who has flown around the world? heh, or maybe they knew someone who was suppose to but, lol, fell off? <sigh>

Problem is, and I'm sure Voronwe will agree, is that once someone reaches that stage of ignorance you can't argue with them, you can't win... even if you are right, they are too dumb to understand. And yet, I have people, whom I know are fairly intelligent, that are PAYING to send their kids somewhere they just might be told by someone in "authority" the world is flat... what a sad day.


Cheers!
Marb

[Apostate]

It's humourous that people always joke about "Catholic" school but the ones here are very laid back compared to 20 years ago. Yes, once you get into elementary school you go to mass once a month, use to be once a week or daily. They have music and art education as well which is left out of many public schools, a short religion class etc... however in HS they actually teach scientific theory, the scientific method etc... and Evolution. Maybe it's like I always say and one of the Roman Cardinals said a few weeks ago "There is nothing in the theory of evolution that necessarily conflicts with the Biblical creation story."

Catholic dogma rejects a literal interpretation of the Bible, and has been metaphorical/interpretive in nature since at least Vatican II. This conflicts strongly with fundamentalist/literal interpretations, which is one of the largest sore points between strong fundamentalist christian denominations like Baptists and Roman Catholics. A catholic that adopts literal creationism and rejects evolotion would do so against their own religious dogma.

[Fash]

Evolution is at opposition with creationism. The bible tells us that we were created in someones image and that we alone are important. Evolution reveals that we are not important at all, we are just the most adaptable advanced species around and have spread across the rock we live on. To me, it debunks religion entirely.

[nobody]

I think God works by natural means. just b/c we could have come about through evolution doesn't make us less important. the bible says the earth was created in 6 days but it also says that God isn't concerned with time. there's a lot out there that we don't know so to assume something can't work a certain way b/c we don't understand it is counterproductive.

[Kylere]

So if the only way you can win is to be X, doesn't that mean that is the majority, and that means a democracy?