I do not get it

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » September 27, 2005, 8:09 pm

A friend killed himself today. He left his wife and kids with a new house to pay for. He killed himself because he was laid off. I do not get how this incredible act of selfishness helps his family.

Sorry I am just stunned and sad...

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » September 27, 2005, 9:13 pm

Sorry to hear that.

I have no idea why someone would kill themself over a job, much less leaving his family with the sadness and lack of income.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 27, 2005, 10:40 pm

Sorry Tyek. The only thing I can offer, and in no way does it justify the act, is that perhaps your friend was hurting or had problems more than you knew.

valryte · Post by **valryte** » September 28, 2005, 12:08 am

Yeah, maybe being laid off just pushed him over the edge. There could have been a number of other issues. There usually are. Sorry.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » September 28, 2005, 12:18 am

Also, I am sorry that you are going through this. It is terrible to lose a friend. You seem like a nice person and it is no fun to have to go through something like this.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » September 28, 2005, 12:33 am

Thanks to all, the ones I truly feel sorry for are his wife and kids.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 28, 2005, 12:51 am

life insurance doesnt pay you if you off yourself does it?

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » September 28, 2005, 1:28 am

Nope, so she is screwed, now she has to pay for a funeral on top of everything else.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 28, 2005, 1:31 am

I doubt it was the job termination itself Tyek.

Years back, I met my future ex-wife during christmas break. The previous month, on Thanksgiving Day, her father jumped off the roof of their seven story condo. After getting some background, I couldn't find a reason for it at first. He was a nuclear physicist working on the atom smasher (particle accelerator) at Los Alamos New Mexico. He loved his kids and enjoyed his work. He bought lots of stock in Western Digital and Seagate before they exploded so was financially set as well.

He wrote a poem before ending his life. It was a beautiful poem written to his daughter (not his wife). Eventually I found out, through first hand experience, that his wife was a total bitch. It sounds like she made his life pretty miserable. Barring any other deep secrets, I chalk it up to his nagging wife if there was any reason at all beyond a chemical imbalance of some sort.

How well do you know your friend's family life Tyek?

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » September 28, 2005, 1:59 am

The sudden loss of something taken for granted is always tough to deal with, and when put into perspective, one of the worst instances is losing a friend / family member. Be strong when dealing with and becoming accustomed to life without your friend.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » September 28, 2005, 3:25 am

I understand people have underlying issues, emotional issues and such, but killing yourself is such a cowards way to go about it. He left his problems for someone else.

I do not know much about their family life, except they were always happy when I saw them and he was one of those "life of the party" type people. I mean no one knows what is going on behind closed doors. They may have had a bad marriage when everyone was gone, but it did not show when we were around them.

It has just been a weird day.

Legenae · Post by **Legenae** » September 28, 2005, 4:36 am

Unfortunately I don't think anyone ever "gets it."

Back in my first year in college, I had a friend who took his own life. This is someone I had known (and went to school with) since kindergarten. It will be 11 years since that happened, this November. The reality didn't hit me until a few days later when I walked through the doors of the funeral home. At that moment I just started crying and didn't stop until hours later. I still don't know the reason "why" - to my knowledge he never left a note.

I really don't know why a person would take their own life. Is their life seriously THAT BAD that it's worth putting family and friends through hell? No I don't get it.

I understand what you are going through and I am very sorry for your loss.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 28, 2005, 5:23 am

Yeah it obviously was Legenae.

Sorry for your loss Tyek, horrible when someone close to you dies, about the worst thing in the world.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 28, 2005, 10:58 am

Tyek,

I wish I had some words that would explain everything, regretably I don't. However I offer my condolences to you and the family.

One of my old managers killed himself back last December. Before he became my boss we were quite good friends. I turned down the management postion he took because I refused to work for the director they put us under. Some saw it as career suicide but I saw it as a way to bid my time until I could get out. As time went on the director set myself and this guy up time and again... eventually we got it worked out and a few months later I came to the company for which I presently work. The few member of my team that stayed (15 out of 18 left before/with/soon after I did) relayed how bad it got. Eventually this guy wouldn't lie for the Director and he was moved from a mgt position to a standard wireline tech (I'm sure with a pay reduction). A few months after that he was fired. I had heard it took him over a year to find a job as he was overpaid for his skillset. Eventually though he found a job, finally seemed like he was getting his life together, helped produce his Chuch's Christmas play then killed himself a couple of days later...

Logically if he was going to do it would have been a lot sooner than he did, he did it when things, at least from the outside, were looking up... Suicide just doesn't make sense and is always a tradegy for everyone involved.

Marb

Dalmoth_IO · Post by **Dalmoth_IO** » September 28, 2005, 12:55 pm

Until you've reached that bottom I don't think its possible to understand suicide at all. It is not a rational mind that contemplates it, thus a rational mind can't get a grip on it.

Best you can do is just be there for the family. After a bit, ignore them when they say their ok, they aren't. Be a friend even if you weren't before, they need to move on and they need help doing that from people that know the one that is gone.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » September 28, 2005, 1:15 pm

Depression is a bad bad thing...

Fyndina · Post by **Fyndina** » September 28, 2005, 2:27 pm

Been there. My wife killed herself 6 years ago tomorrow. For some people, it truly is the only way out (in their view).

btw suicide does not automatically invalidate life insurance. I believe there is a one year clause after it is obtained (might vary by state) that it will not pay for suicide, but after that it should pay. Have the wife look into it, won't bring him back, but will lessen the financial burden. I was stuck with 60K in medical bills and about 40K in credit card bills, with no life insurance on her. Not fun on top of the emotional loss.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » September 28, 2005, 4:01 pm

My dad took his own life in 2003.

He had been on his 2nd depression and this one drove him under. He talked with a doctor but didn't heed her advice or take the medication prescribed(or so I've been told).

I used to have a very intolerant view on suicide, calling it a coward's way out and such. Now I realise that even very strong individuals, and my dad was a very strong willed person, can have moments of weakness that overpower them.

His most recent life policy had a clause in it that invalidated the policy if the suicide happened within 2 years of the policy being set up, which is what happened.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 28, 2005, 5:11 pm

I think that some people try to make a family hoping that the genetic urge to mate/procreate is what's causing that emptiness inside. Obviously, that's not always the case. I also think that shrinks are very quick to put people on strong psychoactive drugs that don't to a thing to fix the root cause of their unhappiness, but only treat symptoms, and sometimes have side effects that make it worse.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 28, 2005, 5:31 pm

As a person who was heading to medical school to be a shrink but backed out after working with numerous people like Mast describes, I agree 100%

Marb

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 28, 2005, 6:30 pm

Anti Depressants are fucking dire things, I don't think anyone should use them, ever.

Sorry to hear of some of these tragic tales and the people involved

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 28, 2005, 7:14 pm

Nick wrote:Anti Depressants are fucking dire things, I don't think anyone should use them, ever.

I've seen first hand how people turn into shells of themselves when using antidepressants. Calling them zombies is dramatizing it but the spark is definately gone.

The majority of people on them shoudn't be and the small percentage that may need them should be started on a program to get them off the drugs as soon as possible.

Many times, it's the surrounding cast around a person that is the problem and not the person themself.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 28, 2005, 7:27 pm

Truly well said Winnow *gasp*

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 28, 2005, 8:10 pm

Errrrm as someone with an MS in Psychology who also happens to have Unipolar Depression Chronic with Acute exacerbations, I can tell you that the only reason I am alive is modern antidepressants.

Chronic Depression is not amenable to therapy period. It is a genetic chemical imbalance. The "emptiness" starts creeping in in early puberty and never goes away.

The root cause is currently entirely untreatable. Though stem cell reasearch offers some long term hope (50 years down the line or so.)

The best possible treatment would be very early diagnosis, antidepressant therapy combined with cognitive behavioral therapy aimed at early identification and amelioration of maladaptive behavioral patterns stemming from the disease (of course the cognitive behavioral therapy at an early age will result in other maladaptive behavioral patterns probably.)

Depression is not unhappiness, unhappiness is just one symptom. There is a profound disconnect in Depression. I can effectively (as most who have met me will attest) mimic normal behavior, for example I can seem jocular and the life of the party, but that is entirely unrelated to what I feel and internalize. No amount of telling me I'm great and wonderful can ever allow me to feel great and wonderful...I am emotionally blind to the positive regard of others. Cognitively, I understand that people can and do like me...but on a visceral level I cannot feel that. Cognitively I know my worth, emotionally I feel worthless.

"What good are antidepressants then," You might logically ask? Well it is hard to explain honestly. They remove the obsessional aspects of depression and the feelings of unhappiness. Depression has 2 distinct symptom sets positive and negative. The positive symptoms are those that are increases in a behaviour (not positive in the good sense of the word) like Unhappiness, Obsessive thinking The negative symptoms are behavioral defecits resulting from the disease process (lethargy, feelings of worthlessness and emptiness etc). Antidepressants (especially modern SSRIs) are very effective at treating the positive symptoms but less effective at treating the negative symptoms.

There is a sudden "vogue" in blaming antidepressant medications for suicidality. In point of fact every psychologist/psychiatrist out there will tell you that we are well aware of the "suicide paradox" we have known about it for 50 years. Lethargy and Apathy are usually the first symptoms to remit in antidepressant therapy. So you end up with a very unhappy person with thoughts of suicide and feelings of worthlessness who suddenly has the energy and will to do something about it, which comes as a suprise to the layperson or to physicians not trained to expect it. This side-effect has seemed to increase of late simply because, with the relative safety of modern antidepressants many physicians who would never have prescribed antidepressants previously are prescribing them (GPs, Internists, Family Practitioners).

It's nice to think we could talk people out of depression but it simply doesn't work that way. Contemporary antidepressants are light years ahead of what we had just 20 years ago. The side-effects are very limited and well known.

You can try 'til the cows come home to think what depression feels like. But unless you are one of us you just won't get it...

.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 28, 2005, 9:14 pm

Arb,

This chemical imbalance. Are there physical tests that can identify them or is it diagnosed through observance only?

Obviously there are severe cases. I'm referring to the increase in diagnoses of depression and the handing out of antidepressants like candy to borderline depressed individuals who haven't shown a history of it.

There is a difference here between the person depressed because, for example, their mother continuously calls them fat and someone who may have an outstanding cast of supporting characters yet remains depressed anyway.

One of my concerns has always been the power of a psychologist/psychiastrist to determine the mental state of a patient and be able to send them off to the loonybin.

Stress is diagnosed incorrectly as depression. While antidepressants have a helpful effect on severe cases of depression disorders, the kid that's a little down because she can't get a boyfriend, or any other of a million reasons, isn't someone who should be fed antidepressants. The easily observable negative effect on their character under the influence of these drugs demands much more scrutiny before a prescription is handed out. The same goes for Ritalin for hyper kids, etc.

It scares me that I could walk into an office, tell them I'm bothered by the performance of my stock portfolio or something else on a similar level and be pumped full of drugs. That's not the answer for these situations. For a severe condition like yours, it makes plenty of sense to take them.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 28, 2005, 10:40 pm

Winnow wrote:Arb,

This chemical imbalance. Are there physical tests that can identify them or is it diagnosed through observance only?

Obviously there are severe cases. I'm referring to the increase in diagnoses of depression and the handing out of antidepressants like candy to borderline depressed individuals who haven't shown a history of it.

There is a difference here between the person depressed because, for example, their mother continuously calls them fat and someone who may have an outstanding cast of supporting characters yet remains depressed anyway.

One of my concerns has always been the power of a psychologist/psychiastrist to determine the mental state of a patient and be able to send them off to the loonybin.

Stress is diagnosed incorrectly as depression. While antidepressants have a helpful effect on severe cases of depression disorders, the kid that's a little down because she can't get a boyfriend, or any other of a million reasons, isn't someone who should be fed antidepressants. The easily observable negative effect on their character under the influence of these drugs demands much more scrutiny before a prescription is handed out. The same goes for Ritalin for hyper kids, etc.

It scares me that I could walk into an office, tell them I'm bothered by the performance of my stock portfolio or something else on a similar level and be pumped full of drugs. That's not the answer for these situations. For a severe condition like yours, it makes plenty of sense to take them.

Dx is by symptom only plus history and family history...The imbalance is not readily detectable...the chemical in question is common throughout the body and the quantities involved in neurotransmission are insignificant.

Dx of major depression requires persistent/recurrent symptoms of a certain severity, not soley in reaction to a known stressor(s). A severe stressor can cause depression significant enough to merit use of antidepressants but very rarely and that would be used only in conjunction with counseling and relatively short term. It can be very useful to level the person emotionally so they can begin to process the precipitating event. But this sort of use would involve at a minimum monthly visits to a Psychologist/Psychiatrist and reassessment.

The only time a psychologist/psychiatrist will commit involuntarily is if you represent a clear danger to yourself or others and that commitment is brief and subject to judicial review (duration varies state to state).

Most people will not report depression to a physician until it is clinically significant, actually most won't report it even then.

Antidepressants are not happy pills and they do not numb the pain of emotional loss. They basically have no effect on normally functioning brains. They just increase synaptic availability of serotonin in certain well documented areas of the brain if you have adequate serotonin already then all the post synaptic receptors are already activated more does basically nothing in terms of the brain.

If a doctor involuntarily committed you for being stressed about your portfolio and pumped you full of drugs...well that's clear malpractice...

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 29, 2005, 3:14 am

See, that's exactly it, Arb. They give these pills to people who are not CLINICALLY depressed, just not happy with their lives for whatever reason. So they do nothing, and you continue to feel the same; you've been to see the doctor, and the magic pill isn't working.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 29, 2005, 3:52 am

are you insinuating that doctors are somehow overusing their prescription pads instead of acting ethically? hah, next you'll accuse the pharmaceutical companies of encouraging such a thing!

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 29, 2005, 11:08 am

Arb, I hope you didn't think I meant that no one was clinically depressed. Yes some are and it sounds like, regretably, you are one of those people but on the bright side, are dealing with it appropriately and well.

The problem, as Kyou joked about, is that too many physicians are scribble happy. On top of that too many Psychiatrist have a Psychologist working with them in their practice, when the Psychologist thinks someone needs medication, they write it out for their patient based not upon the judgement of someone who when to Medical School but someone who probably never even had Organic Chemistry.

I need 2 classes to have a Masters in Clinical Psych, was an affiliate of the APA from my Sophomore year in HS until I quit my masters program and told them I wasn't coming to Med School the next year and scored in the 99.9th percentile when I took the Psych GRE... none of that is to brag but it is to say that for many years Psychology was my life. I was very lucky to get the chance to do therapy on a regular basis even before my program was complete...

However I was also lucky enough, or unlucky enough if you spoke with some former clients who were quite upset when I left, to eventually see the overall direction very negatively. The close friends I had made over the years who were Shrinks smoked more dope than the hardest partiers in College. Not that I think there is anything wrong with a little toke now and then but when it's a constant thing, there is a problem. The staff I worked with were all as medicated as the patients/clients. In fact everyone I worked with except for 1 nurse and myself were medicated. Behaviorism was too prevelant and the apathy for threapy was ridiculas, not from the clients who made progress but from the other Psychiatrist and Psychologist who just wanted to give them a pill and send them on their merry way rather than try to tackle the underlying cause... Yes sometimes it's chemical but VERY often people truly just need an outside voice to help guide them to figuring things out on their own... add to that the fact that you HAVE to diagnose, EVEN if they don't meet all the criteria in order to get reimbursed from most insurance companies and it just lost it's luster...

I don't hate the whole thing, it's still very dear to my heart and I use my knowledge and experiences to help whenever I can (I think that is actually what I spend most of my EQ1 career doing) but I'm VERY leary of the process.

I've very pleased to hear things are going well for you. It sounds like you have found some excellent people to help, don't let them get away.

Marb

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » September 30, 2005, 6:10 am

Sorry to hear that tyek..

Like everyone has said, the reason is probably deeper than possibly anyone knows.

It's going on 5 years now since my cousin (who was also one of my best friends) killed himself.

He was 18 years old. He shot himself in the face with a shotgun while his sister was upstairs sleeping.

Him, his brother and sister, and mom and dad moved to alaska because of teaching jobs his parents were taking. He absolutely did not want to move, he had emotional issues as it was, and also had a hard time making new friends. He was severely bi polar, would go from a great mood to furious in a matter of seconds, and he hated alaska. I think him being away from the rest of his family was a big part of it, but who knows what else it was.

The best advice I can give is basically what most have said, just be there for them in any way possible. That is going to effect them for the rest of their lives, and will never totally get better. They will be taking it day by day for a long time.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 30, 2005, 11:15 am

kyoukan wrote:life insurance doesnt pay you if you off yourself does it?

Every policy I've seen doesn't pay on suicide in the first 12 months, and if there's a history of it in the family, they won't insure you w/o a provision for it.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » September 30, 2005, 8:41 pm

Funeral is Monday and apparently he must have been thinking about this for a while since there is a open casket viewing. They said he knew what he was doing so it was easy to clean him up. I wonder if he checked up on how to shoot himself, or just got lucky. I guess that makes it easier on his wife and kids.