The Free State we are creating

[Pherr the Dorf]

"Any individual with another nationality (except for Israel) may obtain Iraqi nationality after a period of residency inside the borders of Iraq of not less than ten years for an Arab or twenty years for any other nationality.

"An Iraqi may have more than one nationality as long as the nationality is not Israeli."

Facisism much?

"The Iraqi people are one people, unified by belief and the unity of the homeland and culture. Anything that exposes this unity to danger is forbidden."

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuehrer!

"The state shall take responsibility for combating moral and behavioral depravity and encourage people and agencies to spread virtue, providing it help and support. The state shall ensure harmony between the duties of woman toward her family and her work in the society and equality with men in the fields of political, social, and economic life without conflicting with or disturbing the provisions of the Islamic shari'a."

Sounds plausable doesn't it?

"The state shall guarantee the realization of the social guarantee necessary for citizens in case of old age, disease, inability to work, or if they are homeless, orphans, widowed, or unemployed. It shall provide them social insurance services and health care and protect them from the talons of ignorance, fear, and want, providing them with housing, and special programs to train them and care for them. A law shall be issued regarding this."

"Iraqi citizens have the right to enjoy security and free health care. The Iraqi federal government and regional governments must provide it and expand the fields of prevention, treatment, and medication by the construction of various hospitals and health institutions".

Socialism courtesy of American taxpayer Dollars!

"There is no censorship on newspapers, printing, publishing, advertising, or media except by law."

That one is just cute, but get this one...

"Compulsory service (the corvee), slavery, the slave trade, forced labor, or any work that is imposed on the Iraq citizen not in accordance with the provisions of the constitution or the law are forbidden."

Great Democracy!

[Jice Virago]

The irony of the anti Israeli shit in there is that the Neocons are so fundementally pro Israel (they were founded by pro israeli Dems who were pissed at Carter for actually making peace with Arabs) and now they have taken Iraqi society and set it back 50 years on the human rights scale, complete with state inforced anti-semitism.

[Kylere]

The irony of the anti Israeli shit in there is that the Neocons are so fundementally pro Israel (they were founded by pro israeli Dems who were pissed at Carter for actually making peace with Arabs) and now they have taken Iraqi society and set it back 50 years on the human rights scale, complete with state inforced anti-semitism.

Yeah cause Iraq was so free before?

Ye Gods, just asctually THINK befoire you post.

[Tenuvil]

Juden? JUDEN?!

Wo sind Ihre Papiere?

[Kelshara]

The irony of the anti Israeli shit in there is that the Neocons are so fundementally pro Israel (they were founded by pro israeli Dems who were pissed at Carter for actually making peace with Arabs) and now they have taken Iraqi society and set it back 50 years on the human rights scale, complete with state inforced anti-semitism.

Yeah cause Iraq was so free before?

Ye Gods, just asctually THINK befoire you post.

Freest of the Middle East countries.

[Kylere]

The irony of the anti Israeli shit in there is that the Neocons are so fundementally pro Israel (they were founded by pro israeli Dems who were pissed at Carter for actually making peace with Arabs) and now they have taken Iraqi society and set it back 50 years on the human rights scale, complete with state inforced anti-semitism.

Yeah cause Iraq was so free before?

Ye Gods, just asctually THINK befoire you post.

Freest of the Middle East countries.

Kelshara, you really think Iraq prior to 2002 was one of the most free countries in the middle east?

Can you come up with any justification for that statement?

[Hoarmurath]

Kelshara, you really think Iraq prior to 2002 was one of the most free countries in the middle east?

Can you come up with any justification for that statement?

Women could get a driver's license?

[Drasta]

ok question about the slave thing ... are they able to make israelies into slaves ?

[Nick]

Be careful, Israel might just invade your country and oppress you and millions of other innocents for 30 years for a comment like that.

[Drasta]

its just a question =-P it looked like a little loopole if i was reading it correctly in that statement since it looked like their can be slave labor stuff just not for the iraq people ... and israelies can't be iraq citizens ...

[Kylere]

Kelshara, you really think Iraq prior to 2002 was one of the most free countries in the middle east?

Can you come up with any justification for that statement?

Women could get a driver's license?

Prove it, and prove they cannot now

[Kaldaur]

I don't think what Iraq was in the past, Kylere, has any definitive reason to be compared to what we're trying to make Iraq now. I thought we were over there to change things for the better, and to help the people of Iraq form a free country. I guess it's just free for some people.

[Kylere]

Ye gods, if we force our entire worldview down their throats people, that is not freedom. We have to let their moral/social issues be addressed, then the people can freely vote. I highly doubt they are introducing western style slavery, and as for the not letting Israelis become citizens, since when are immigration and naturalization laws a matter of freedom? They do not apply to the citizens of the country, blocking Israelis from becoming citizens is a little petty IMHO, but it is not wrong nor criminal.

You all seem to think we should hand them the US legal code, the US Moral Code, and a copy of the Christian bible and instruct them follow them precisely. This is why western civilization fucks ups contact with the Arabic cultures, your ethnocentrism will not allow you to step into their shoes and realize that they find many of our liberal ideals to be entirely insane.

[Hoarmurath]

Women could get a driver's license?

Prove it, and prove they cannot now

You want me to prove that women could get driver's licenses in Iraq while Saddaam Hussein was President? I'm not going to do that. To me, it's part of what I've learned over the years from any number of sources. If you don't believe me, look it up yourself, or just claim that I'm full of crap. This is teh intarweb, after all.

As for the second part of you comment, of course they can still get them now, that wasn't my point. My point was that there are a number of countries in the region *cough*Saudi Arabia*cough* where women have significantly fewer freedoms than Iraqi women had under Saddam Hussein. Don't get me wrong (which I know you will anyway, but hey, that's cool), Saddam was a dick and I'm glad he's out of power, but Iraqi society was quite secular and progessive compared to most other countries in the region, making it inherently "freer". Of course, comparing freedoms in Iraq under Saddam to freedoms in most of the rest of the Western world doesn't make Iraq look very free at all, but when compared to other Middle Eastern countries, Iraqi citizens, in general, certainly had more freedom. Not more freedom than they have now, I'm saying they have more freedoms than citizens of other coutries in the region, which may have been the point that Kelshara was trying to make.

Now here is where you follow teh intarweb stereotype and call me an idiot liberal or something. (Although I'm quite the Republican*)

*Real Republican, not what passes for a Republican these days.

[Nick]

Illegal wars to retain global hegemony at the expense of tens of thousands of innocent lives whilst conditioning the ignorant public of the west to agree with your bullshit lies FTW!

[Sionistic]

Actually wasnt Iraq the most liberal middle eastern country back then?

[Zaelath]

There is plenty of evidence if you care to look that women are being put back in their place post Saddam. Certainly, the theocracy you're sponsoring in Iraq won't let women drive, be doctors, etc. Oh, yeah, you're calling it a democracy, lets go with that, say; a democracy, just like Vatican City.

You're confusing this crackpot right wing propoganda with reality. This old fellah is even nice enough to biograph himself, so you get to see in detail, that while he was in WWII and Korea, he doesn't have any first hand knowledge of what "the majority of Iraqis are constantly asking". Unfortunately he just missed out on Vietnam by a few weeks, so he didn't get to experience first hand the locals wanting him the fuck out of their country.

Then, look at something written by a Middle East specialist (that isn't against ousting Saddam, just writing about the complexity of trying to push a democratic government on Iraqi tribes) http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fe ... 030708.htm

Look how long that article is by comparison! OMG, I can't read all that! It's much easier to read a couple of paragraphs of misinformed ranting and pretend my opinion is formed by reading widely on a topic.. Now, where did I leave my baseless character assassination of the day calander.

[Kelshara]

Actually wasnt Iraq the most liberal middle eastern country back then?

Yes, it was. Of course, Afghanistan isn't doing so hot when it comes to these things either.. Are we seeing a trend here?

[Kylere]

I am glad you all think we would be right in imposing our belief structure on them, amazing how much you liberals sound like conservatives when you do not get what you want.

[Kelshara]

It's not our fault the most liberal state got bombed back into the stone age and then take a step towards the worse. Guess we are not allowed to comment on that huh?

[Kylere]

Wow in your alternate reality, who landed on the Moon first, Russia or China? Because thinking Iraq was a garden state in 1990 reveals you to be high.

[Kelshara]

I am not surprised your trailer park didn't teach you to read but nobody have said it was a garden state. However, it was better than it currently is (and than what the constitution is looking like atm).

[Kylere]

Okay so you are basing your entire decision on a draft document that has not yet faced the electorate?

And you think my point is invalid?

LOL

[kyoukan]

Prove it, and prove they cannot now

You have 24 hours to prove to me that women can get drivers liscenses in the USA.

[Kelshara]

Okay so you are basing your entire decision on a draft document that has not yet faced the electorate?

And you think my point is invalid?

LOL

Part of it definitely. The rest is simply reading what is going on there. You know, reading.. I think you can handle that if you get some help.

[Zaelath]

Okay so you are basing your entire decision on a draft document that has not yet faced the electorate?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Fine, how about you get back to us when this has passed as written then.

There's a fine line between being an optimist and being a smiling idiot.

[Cartalas]

Prove it, and prove they cannot now

You have 24 hours to prove to me that women can get drivers liscenses in the USA.

Section 286-111 Application for license or instruction permit; fees.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(a) Every application for an instruction permit or for a driver's license shall be made upon a form furnished by the examiner of drivers and shall be verified by the applicant before a person authorized to administer oaths.
The examiner of drivers and officers serving under the examiner are hereby authorized to administer such oaths without charge.

Each application for an instruction permit for a category (1), (2), (3), or (4) license shall be accompanied by a fee to be determined by the council of each county and each application for a driver's license shall be accompanied by the fee, unless the applicant has already paid the fee upon application for an instruction permit in the same county, in which event no fee shall be chargeable.

An additional fee to be determined by the council of each county shall be charged and collected upon the issuance of a driver's license.

All the foregoing fees shall become county realizations.

(b) The director of transportation shall establish a fee schedule for all commercial driver's licensing examinations.

The fees collected for a commercial driver's license shall become state realizations and deposited in the state highway fund.

The State shall reimburse the counties all costs for administering the commercial driver's licensing program.

The amount of reimbursement shall be determined by the director of transportation.

(c) Every application shall state the full name, date of birth, SEX, occupation, the residence address and business address, if any, of the applicant, and shall briefly describe the applicant, and shall state whether the applicant has theretofore been licensed as a driver, and, if so, when and in what state or country, and whether any such license has ever been suspended or revoked, or whether an application has ever been refused, and if so, the date of and reason for the suspension, revocation, or refusal.

[L 1937, c 234, Sect 7; am L Sp 1941, c 6, Sect 1; RL 1945, Sect 7308; RL 1955, Sect 160-38: HRS Sect 286-111; am L 1968, c 48, Sect 5; am L 1970, c 164, Sect 3; am imp L 1984, c 90, Sect 1; am L 1990, c 342, Sect 20]

[Zaelath]

Yeah, ummm.. that in no way says that women (or men) for that matter, will be allowed a licence. Perhaps the SEX part is just so they can expidite the denial of licences to those that admit they're female.

Implication != proof. Unless of course you're talking about a reason to invade. =)

[miir]

Nothing in there that plainly states a woman can get a drivers license.

[Cartalas]

Nothing in there that plainly states a woman can get a drivers license.

Maybe the Box on a license that says Sex M or F But you guys are right this is a hard one to prove. ut I think this will.


Veils not allowed in Michigan driver's license photos


By Associated Press

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LANSING -- Muslim women aren't allowed to wear veils in their driver's license photos in Michigan, but the secretary of state's office makes special accommodations to make women comfortable without their veil, a spokeswoman said Friday.

Muslim women can make appointments to have their picture taken at their local secretary of state's office outside of normal business hours to guarantee no men are present when they are without their veil, said Kelly Chesney, department spokeswoman.

Muslim women also can request to be shielded when their picture is taken during regular business hours, Chesney said.

"Extra efforts are taken to make them comfortable," she said. "We try hard to accommodate women that are impacted."

One of the of the nation's largest concentrations of people with roots in the Middle East lives in Detroit and Dearborn. An estimated 300,000 Arab-Americans live in southeastern Michigan.

A Florida judge ruled Friday that a Muslim woman cannot wear a veil in her driver's license photo. The ruling agrees with state authorities that said the practice could help terrorists conceal their identities.

Michigan's procedures for handling cases of Muslim women wearing veils is listed in manuals at branch offices, Chesney said.

[Cartalas]

Now to tear down Kylere's statement.


COLLEGE PARK, MD. – Iraqi women will certainly be better off without Saddam Hussein, but will they be better off in postwar Iraq?
For the past 100 years, Iraqi women have struggled for equal rights, with some success. Women had held 20 percent of Iraq's parliamentary seats in recent history- more than the 14 percent held by women in the US Congress, and far greater than the 3.5 percent average among Arab states. Iraqi women historically had the right to vote, drive, work, be educated, and dress as they please. They once pursued the same professions and salaries as Iraqi men. And they received five years of maternity leave from their employers, a benefit American women can only dream of.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0515/p11s02-coop.html

[miir]

Good find, Cart.

[Kylere]

Actually the best consideration of womens rights in Iraq from a liberal perspective is covered at http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/EN ... of=ENG-IRQ

educate yourself

[Zaelath]

Actually the best consideration of womens rights in Iraq from a liberal perspective is covered at http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/EN ... of=ENG-IRQ

educate yourself

Heh, great opening sentence to support your argument:

1. Introduction
Women and girls in Iraq live in fear of violence as the conflict intensifies and insecurity spirals.

Second paragraph explains that the headline is general suffering rather than women:

In recent decades, the people of Iraq have suffered brutal repression under the government of Saddam Hussain, and the terrible consequences of war and sanctions.

It then goes on to talk about the Iraqi eqivalent of the suffragettes, which puts Iraq on the bleeding edge of women's rights in the Middle East; do you think the Saudi women are quiet about their second class status because they like it, or because they're too scared to complain about it?

Since the 2003 war, women’s rights activists and political leaders have been threatened by armed groups and a number have been killed. Women have been subjected to sexual threats by members of the US-led forces(1), and some women detained by US forces have been sexually abused, possibly raped.

Big Win for the US there, I'm sure the sexual abuse was warranted under the circumstances though (Hi Kyou!)

Women’s rights NGOs in Iraq have called for measures to be taken in order to stop violence against women and to end discrimination against women.

OMFG, there's MULTIPLE Women's rights organisations, I'm not sure how they let that one get through to the keeper.

Please, seriously, point out anything in that fucking article that supports your argument other than the misleading headline.

[kyoukan]

am I still waiting on whether or not women can get a driver's liscense in the US?

[Kylere]

am I still waiting on whether or not women can get a driver's liscense in the US?

Driver's licenses are a state not a federal issue, remember we fought for our independance.

[Kylere]

Zaelath, maybe you should go to amnesty's site and read their rating of the other middle eastern countries, I would really like to carry this debate a level higher.

[Zaelath]

Zaelath, maybe you should go to amnesty's site and read their rating of the other middle eastern countries, I would really like to carry this debate a level higher.

I suggest you consult google and prove my point for me. HTF?!

Just answer the god damn question, what in that article supports your argument?

I'm not sure that Iraq was "the most free" state in the Middle East, but I am pretty certain the majority are worse off now than they were. Given 50% are female, and they're likely all worse off in terms of freedoms that opportunities like driving and education bring them, that just about covers your majority.

Perhaps you're confused that if Saddam was a brutal dictator how can you be free? Well, gee.. by being free to do everything but oppose the rule of law passed down by your government (that's different to the US only in that one guy makes the law).

There's a few aberations, certainly, for instance in democratic countries we don't attack an entire town because an assassin came from there. OTOH I didn't think we executed people on the street for running from the cops either.

Certainly, the new government's highest office is held by a Shiite, which would apparently be a paradox. vis:

http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/S/Shiites.asp

The evolution into a religious formulation is believed to have been initiated with the martyrdom of Husayn in 680 at Karbala (today in Iraq), a traumatic event still observed with fervor in today's Shiite world on the 10th of the month of Muharram of the Muslim lunar year. The Shiite focus on the person of the Imam made the community susceptible to division on the issue of succession. The early Shiites, a recognized, if often persecuted, opposition to the central government, soon divided into several factions. The majority of the Shiites today are Twelve-Imam Shiites (notably in Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, India, and Pakistan). Others are Zaydis (in Yemen), and the Ismailis (in India, Pakistan, Syria, and Yemen). The central belief of Twelve-Imam Shiites is the occultation (or disappearance from view) of the 12th Imam. The 12th Imam is considered to be the only legitimate and just ruler, and therefore no political action taken in his absence can be fruitful.

Which would seem to firmly entrench a theocracy, which in turn tends to mean less freedom for a lot of people.

[kyoukan]

Driver's licenses are a state not a federal issue, remember we fought for our independance.

yeah and? you seem to be awfully willing to demand people to show you proof of everything, but you can't even prove to me an obvious fact? are you going to answer it or admit that it's totally worthless to prove a truism or are you going to keep trying to deflect your arguments?

[Kylere]

For those over 18 http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-12 ... --,00.html

For those under 18
http://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,1607,7-12 ... --,00.html

No mention of sex, and this is still irrelevant, I asked for examples citing Iraq as a garden state for feminism prior to 1991. If it was noticibly superior I want to hear about it, I am amazed that while he participated in the most violent and deadly war in the middle east ever killing millions in Iraq and Iran and killed off thousands of Kurdish men, women and children, not to mention disappearing people regularly he was such an enlightened supporter of womens rights, it is bullshit, plain and simple until someone can convince me otherwise.

[Aslanna]

I for one am for a U.S. drivers license. It could still be run by the states, and you pay your money to whatever state it's issued/renewed in, but it would make things like moving a lot nicer. Basically if you move to another state these days you can chalk up a day at the MVA/DMV/whoever.

Sorta offtopic though. Carry on!

[Kylere]

I for one am for a U.S. drivers license. It could still be run by the states, and you pay your money to whatever state it's issued/renewed in, but it would make things like moving a lot nicer. Basically if you move to another state these days you can chalk up a day at the MVA/DMV/whoever.

Sorta offtopic though. Carry on!

There is a good deal of possibly nutcasey but semi valid reasons not to, most of which is that the ACLU, EFF, everyone would jump on national id cards of any kind. The SSN card only survives by being paper.

[Pherr the Dorf]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8714527/

A part of Iraq’s draft constitution obtained by The Associated Press gives Islam a major role in Iraqi civil law, raising concerns that women could lose rights in marriage, divorce and inheritance.

The proposal also appears to rule out non-governmental militias, an area addressed Monday by U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad. Urging Iraqis to build national institutions, he said there is no place for factional forces that “build the infrastructure for a future civil war.”

The civil law section, one of six to make up Iraq's new charter, covers the rights and duties of citizens and public and private freedoms. The language is not final, but members of the drafting committee said there was agreement on most of its wording.

[Kylere]

Members of the constitutional committee said the draft was among several and none would be final until parliament approves the charter by Aug. 15

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... iraq_x.htm

I trust USAToday a lot more than MSN.

[Pherr the Dorf]

Members of the constitutional committee said the draft was among several and none would be final until parliament approves the charter by Aug. 15

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... iraq_x.htm

I trust USAToday a lot more than MSN.

The civil law section, one of six to make up Iraq's new charter, covers the rights and duties of citizens and public and private freedoms. The language is not final, but members of the drafting committee said there was agreement on most of its wording.

And yes I beleive newspapers that print in 723 colors too ... USA today is trash

[Hoarmurath]

he was such an enlightened supporter of womens rights

I don't think anyone is claiming this at all. I believe the only point that was being made was that women in Iraq had more civil liberites than women in just about every other Middle Eastern or Muslim nation, excludin perhaps Lebanon. Nobody is saying that life was a bed of roses for women in Iraq, just that it was better than for women in other countries in the region.

That being said, it appears, at first glance, that the new constitution being drafted (at least the version mentioned in the original post) will be a step backwards for women's rights in general.

[Adex_Xeda]

Sane minded folk have gotten to the point were they laud the merits of Saddam's dictatorship?

It's one thing to disagree with US policy, but this is something else.

This is what happens when personal feelings cloud common sense.

[Kelshara]

hah should have known, since we comment that something was better under him then we are obviously supporters of Saddam!

With us or against us! Let's roll!

[Zaelath]

Sane minded folk have gotten to the point were they laud the merits of Saddam's dictatorship?

It's one thing to disagree with US policy, but this is something else.

This is what happens when personal feelings cloud common sense.

No, what we're saying is that despite how fucking atrocious Saddam was, your rule is worse for a lot people.

[kyoukan]

so you're saying you don't support the troops? what the fuck man. I'm not even going to talk to you if you don't support the troops. is that what you are saying? I will punch you right in the face if you don't support the troops. I won't even say anything just come right up and punch you square in the face. if you don't support the troops then I'm even going to waste my time arguing with you.