London Subway Bombing

[Voronwë]

Preliminary estimates 40 dead, upwards of 300 wounded.

Speculation is that it is Islamic Jihadist. Much less likely that it is an IRA splinter cell or G8 protest.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07 ... index.html

[Animalor]

Please see inaptly named 2nd thread in this very forum...

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4659093.stm

BBC reports 2 dead, many wounded and an islamic website claiming Al-Qeda responsibility. The released text quotes 'Denmark and Italy' next.

[miir]

Don't forget Poland!

[masteen]

I wonder if we'll get to see the stiff upper lip the Brits used to be known for, or have they turned into a bunch of pussies like the rest of Europe (I'm looking at you Spain).

[Voronwë]

Spain voted out their govt because they blamed the Al Qaeda bombing - knowingly - on Basque seperatists for political gains.

Their opposition to the war in Iraq (again not the "War on Terror") is secondary.

[Kelshara]

I wonder if we'll get to see the stiff upper lip the Brits used to be known for, or have they turned into a bunch of pussies like the rest of Europe (I'm looking at you Spain).

Be a bit more ignorant will you? Read what Voronwe said, and they did not support Spain's involvement in Iraq in the first place.

[Seebs]

Nice derail.

I could care less on the rationale, but the bombing did sway the election in Spain, gotta admit that don't you?

[Sueven]

The bombing affected the election because the government KNOWINGLY LIED ABOUT WHO DID IT.

It would be like if George Bush told you that moveon.org was the organization responsible for 9/11. Would you still vote for him then?

[Ransure]

Holy shit... they werent responsible?....

I need to rethink some things.... must go be alone....

[Nick]

Actually the party that won was anti-war, something the Spanish decided was the way forward after experiencing an atrocity first hand.

Just because they didn't do an American dad doesn't make them pussies, that's one of the stupidest and most ignorant things I have read here to date.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Where's all the outrage? 10 posts all day long? Where are the posts talking about how the British government knew this was coming and let it happen anyway? Where are the posts about how the UK deserved it. They must been ignorant and insensitive to the Muslim culture. You people make me sick.

My thoughts go out to all those affected and I hope this serves as a global reminder that we must keep fighting terrorism because they will never stop or lose faith as easily as the spoiled free citizens of Democratic countries around the globe.

[Jice Virago]

Well for one thing, while you guys wait for your talking points, the free thinkers tend to wait for actual facts.

[kyoukan]

Where's all the outrage? 10 posts all day long? Where are the posts talking about how the British government knew this was coming and let it happen anyway? Where are the posts about how the UK deserved it. They must been ignorant and insensitive to the Muslim culture. You people make me sick.

You are quite possibly the worst victim ever.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Well for one thing, while you guys wait for your talking points, the free thinkers tend to wait for actual facts.

ROFL

Free thinkers? Wait for actual facts? HAHA On this board? Wow. Now that is some funny shit.

[Voronwë]

Where's all the outrage? 10 posts all day long? Where are the posts talking about how the British government knew this was coming and let it happen anyway? Where are the posts about how the UK deserved it. They must been ignorant and insensitive to the Muslim culture. You people make me sick.

My thoughts go out to all those affected and I hope this serves as a global reminder that we must keep fighting terrorism because they will never stop or lose faith as easily as the spoiled free citizens of Democratic countries around the globe.

its hard really to even know where to begin...

for one, the UK government had no warning. there were rumors that bomb threats were called in. I heard it on Right Wing radio on the way to work myself. That was never confirmed by ITN, BBC, CNNI, or any "boots on the ground" primary source that I watched and listened to through the course of the day. It was specifically denied by members of the UK government.

i agree with you on that i think it does serve as a reminder that Jihadists are indescriminate and barbarous. I'm not sure that matter was ever up for debate outside the imagination of those who need to artificially demonize those who hold contrary political opinions to theirs to further brew the vitriole. this strengthens Blair's position to stand steadfast with Bush on various military operations throughout the Middle East, and his support was truly waning there.

I saw an interesting diagram tonight on Newsnight, from a professor from U of Chicago. And i have no idea of this guy's credentials beyond that he draws a paycheck. Anyway, it illustrated the areas of largest concentration of jihadist/terrorist activity overlapping areas of globalization of economy. Basically, his argument was that in countries with open markets, you don't see this behavior (terrorism) in high concentrations. Israel being the outlier I suppose.

He also went on to make an interseting point about all 73 of the suicide bombers in the name of Al Qaeda in the last 10+ years. None were from Iran. They were all from countries that have had US troops stationed within their borders - most notably of course Saudi Arabia. I don't know if this guy is full of shit or not, but an interesting point. No direct correlation with fundamentalism per se, but direct correlation with Sunni muslim nations who had experience US boots on the ground.

Regardless, stepping back, the West needs to find a manner in which to seriously incentivize the societies of the Middle East to have a zero tolerance policy towards Jihadism.

Basically, their blood needs to be put on the line. Like specifically the blood of the Saudi Royal Family. Until the West says, "hey you fucking die if you don't clean up your sandbox", people like you and me are going to be potential collateral damage.

[Sirton]

"hey you fucking die if you don't clean up your sandbox"

Agree! 100%! Saudi, Iran, NK, Paki's, Syria. ect. ect. ect. I Maybe your friend for the day but dont be sure in 5-10-20 years...screw the UN make the UFN (United free Nations) and kick some dictator and monarchy ass. This 100+ year project of the UFN will have unreal benifits in the long run... (Just think otherwise like any other technology).....once any crazy Dictator, hill-billy or Native can get there hands on mass destructive weapons.


How many modern democracys have been at war with each other? Law with Democracy and freedom are the key to peace in the long run...

[kyoukan]

Another great Sirton post.

[Dregor Thule]

Wouldn't really call that a post.. more of a crazy mish-mash of words, punctuation, and oddly placed capitals. I'll be damned if I could divine a point from it all.

[Zaelath]

Where's all the outrage? 10 posts all day long? Where are the posts talking about how the British government knew this was coming and let it happen anyway? Where are the posts about how the UK deserved it. They must been ignorant and insensitive to the Muslim culture. You people make me sick.

My thoughts go out to all those affected and I hope this serves as a global reminder that we must keep fighting terrorism because they will never stop or lose faith as easily as the spoiled free citizens of Democratic countries around the globe.

And I bet the Brits don't declare war in an unrelated country within 2 weeks of the event either, pussies.

[Winnow]

I'm wondering if Teeny feels a part of the terrorism yet. Is the collective United Kingdom close enough to home or does it have to be in N. Ireland before it counts?

[Kelshara]

How many modern democracys have been at war with each other? Law with Democracy and freedom are the key to peace in the long run...

Uh let's see.. Germany WWII.. the US in the Gulf Wars I and II, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea (and who knows how many behind the scenes).. England Falkland isles war..

[Atokal]

How many modern democracys have been at war with each other? Law with Democracy and freedom are the key to peace in the long run...

Uh let's see.. Germany WWII.. the US in the Gulf Wars I and II, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Korea (and who knows how many behind the scenes).. England Falkland isles war..

methinks you missed the point if I deciphered it correctly.

When is the last time you saw two democratic countries at war with each other?

Although Hitler was elected sort of, I highly doubt Nazi Germany was going to hold elections again until Hitler lost the war.

Afghanistan = Taliban (not democratic)
Vietnam = not sure of
Korea = not sure
Argentina = Military Junta

Although half of these wars were fought by democratic countries namely USA and Britain.

Afghanistan's other war was against the USSR also not a democratic nation at the time of the conflict.

[Lynks]

Found a neat link

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm

Its a list of wars involving 2 democracies.

[Nick]

What a fucking stupid waste of time this thread has degenerated into.

Winnow, to answer your question, it definately hits home that these brutal terrorists care little whether I or you even care about the situation/are pro or anti war etc.

However it's still obvious that the current execution of the "war on terror" does nothing but provoke this sort of thing whilst at the same time killing more people than the terrorists do.

Of course some people are intent on getting their vengeance, even if it stores up more trouble for the future.

Btw Winnow, before it got more peaceful here I think it's a safe bet I saw more terrorist related things like bombscares, bombs, shootings etc than any of you ever will^^.
Nothing new.

[Voronwë]

England has probably had 10-20 times as many terrorist bombings in the last 15 years than the entire US combined

[Sylvos]

and almost none of them are probably muslim related (cough IRA)

[Voronwë]

actually i think they have had quite a few Islamist terrorist attacks. if i get a chance later i'll try to track down the info i read.

[Kelshara]

Although Hitler was elected sort of,

Less sort of than Bush for sure.

[Sylvos]

Although Hitler was elected sort of,

Less sort of than Bush for sure.

Hitler was elected, he was brilliant in the political arena.
Just a psychopath and unscrupulous when it came to getting rid of his political rivals.


er edit: wtf getting rid of his politics! ENGRISH GUD

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Where's all the outrage? 10 posts all day long? Where are the posts talking about how the British government knew this was coming and let it happen anyway? Where are the posts about how the UK deserved it. They must been ignorant and insensitive to the Muslim culture. You people make me sick.

My thoughts go out to all those affected and I hope this serves as a global reminder that we must keep fighting terrorism because they will never stop or lose faith as easily as the spoiled free citizens of Democratic countries around the globe.

And I bet the Brits don't declare war in an unrelated country within 2 weeks of the event either, pussies.

Welcome to 3 years ago. They were there with us when we invaded Iraq.

[Winnow]

If you want to see a movie that show's Hitler's life between WW1 up to around 1930, check out "Max"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0290210/

It's different. Hitler's psycho side still shows but you get an idea of what the rest of his life was like while he was building his political career. John Cusack does an ok job of playing the art dealer (jew) in the movie that gives Hitler the opportunity to show his drawings...and eventually the futuristic city Hitler envisions.

[Zaelath]

And I bet the Brits don't declare war in an unrelated country within 2 weeks of the event either, pussies.

Welcome to 3 years ago. They were there with us when we invaded Iraq.

You're just too fucking stupid to live really, aren't you. It's like the bumblebee's flight, you know it shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

And I bet the Brits don't declare war in an unrelated country within 2 weeks of the event either, pussies.

Welcome to 3 years ago. They were there with us when we invaded Iraq.

You're just too fucking stupid to live really, aren't you. It's like the bumblebee's flight, you know it shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

Gosh. Well said. I never thought of it that way. When you converse in such an intelligent communicative manner such as this, it really makes a difference. Excellent point. You must be a debate squad member.

[Kaldaur]

I was personally in London staying at the Royal National Hotel, about 30 meters away from the bus explosion and the Russell Square underground station. It was a harrowing past two days, trying to get out of London and back to the States, but the Londoners got back to business as usual right away, with bus lines running by 4pm their time and trains and planes unaffected by a large majority. The Brits get made fun of quite often for bad teeth and other stereotypes, but let me tell you what I saw this weekend. These people are made of steel when it comes down to it. I saw people coming out of Russell with blood everywhere, but for every victim that came out of the station, 4 Londoners were throwing down their suitcases and rushing over to help. These are the same people, if two generations down, who lived day and night under the threat of a German invasion, and yet managed to hold on. I'm not going to get into the politics of the matter, or who was responsible for what, because that is quite possibly a dead issue. All I know is the city of London did an excellent job at handling what could have been a far worse scenario.

[Winnow]

Thanks for relating what you saw and experienced Kaldaur. I've never doubted the English in their ability to handle hardships delt them. They are the United States' number one ally. This was readily apparent during the aftermath of 911. I'd be crushed if Americans didn't return that support in kind during these difficult days.

[Dregor Thule]

I was personally in London staying at the Royal National Hotel, about 30 meters away from the bus explosion and the Russell Square underground station. It was a harrowing past two days, trying to get out of London and back to the States, but the Londoners got back to business as usual right away, with bus lines running by 4pm their time and trains and planes unaffected by a large majority. The Brits get made fun of quite often for bad teeth and other stereotypes, but let me tell you what I saw this weekend. These people are made of steel when it comes down to it. I saw people coming out of Russell with blood everywhere, but for every victim that came out of the station, 4 Londoners were throwing down their suitcases and rushing over to help. These are the same people, if two generations down, who lived day and night under the threat of a German invasion, and yet managed to hold on. I'm not going to get into the politics of the matter, or who was responsible for what, because that is quite possibly a dead issue. All I know is the city of London did an excellent job at handling what could have been a far worse scenario.

Very well said.

[Zaelath]

You're just too fucking stupid to live really, aren't you. It's like the bumblebee's flight, you know it shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

Gosh. Well said. I never thought of it that way. When you converse in such an intelligent communicative manner such as this, it really makes a difference. Excellent point. You must be a debate squad member.

The moment you say anything debatable, you'll get a reasoned response.

[Zaelath]

I was personally in London staying at the Royal National Hotel, about 30 meters away from the bus explosion and the Russell Square underground station. It was a harrowing past two days, trying to get out of London and back to the States, but the Londoners got back to business as usual right away, with bus lines running by 4pm their time and trains and planes unaffected by a large majority. The Brits get made fun of quite often for bad teeth and other stereotypes, but let me tell you what I saw this weekend. These people are made of steel when it comes down to it. I saw people coming out of Russell with blood everywhere, but for every victim that came out of the station, 4 Londoners were throwing down their suitcases and rushing over to help. These are the same people, if two generations down, who lived day and night under the threat of a German invasion, and yet managed to hold on. I'm not going to get into the politics of the matter, or who was responsible for what, because that is quite possibly a dead issue. All I know is the city of London did an excellent job at handling what could have been a far worse scenario.

Stiff upper-lip, and all that, wot? But yes, Britains are very different people to Americans, for all that they're largely your progenitors.

[vn_Tanc]

I've been following the post-bomb developments closely and I notice today the suspected chemist who supplied the bomb-making know-how has been arrested in Cairo. Fuckin' smart.

I've been feeling pretty proud about the general reaction, especially on the day. Luckily nobody I know was hurt or worse though a couple had close escapes (one saw the bus explode, one arrived on Kings Cross tube platform as the train pulled away. . .and then expoded in the tunnel). The police and emergency services rocked and I'd imagine we're going to see some pretty hard-nosed, single-minded pursuit of the perpetrators.

To the rest of us it is something of a case of "same bombs, different nutters". Everyone my age has grown up with periodic bombings, scares, etc, though not on this scale. That's not to say we aren't sad for those who suffer, or belittle the process at all, but we do have practice at getting over it and getting on with things. We've also been aware in the backs of our minds we're probably the 2nd rank "prestige target" for islamic terror. Since 2001 there have been a steady stream of operations and mass arrests of terrorist suspects. Many are still awaiting trial. But there was a certain inevitability about it.

The biggest surprise for me has been that it's esentially domestic terrorists. We have large asian and muslim populations in most of our large cities. The fact that some could be so disaffected as to fall into the arms of Al-Qaeda is certainly an eye opener. The police were all over the actual suspects houses in hours due to them essentially being turned in by their family and neighbours. The parents of the younger bombers are seemingly shocked and knew nothing. Which is also kind of worrying. No surprise that the bombers themselves were 19-22 years old whose natural passions were exploited by older men who are being hunted as we speak.

Interesting times.

[archeiron]

It's like the bumblebee's flight, you know it shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

An interested tidbit from fluid mechanics 101.

Conventional wisdom and aerodynamics modeling calculated that a bumblebee would need all the energy found in a Snicker's bar to fly for a few seconds. When distilled down to viable organic energy sources, it would translate to several times its body weight per minute.

However, the assumptions were incorrect. At such a small size (insects), air has properties that more closely resemble a liquid as far as flight mechanics go. As a result, insects do not need aerofoils to generate lift and instead can essentially "swim" through the air. When these observations are taken into account, it makes the bumblebee's flight viable and well understood by physics.

Relying upon poor assumptions of aerodynamics is the same fallacy that lead Victorians to claim that "heavier than air" flight was physically impossible.


Tune in next week when we prove that droplets of water cannot form in the sky, then show the "trick" that nature uses to overcome the physics, and finally describe how this lead many early 20th century scientists to believe in cloud "seeding" as a viable means of controling the weather!

[archeiron]

Midnyte,

I do not recall having posted about 9/11 in crass vulgarities at the time or at any date later.

As it happens, I have been on the phone to friends and family in London to make sure that they were all ok, rather than posting bitter flames on this messageboard. All of my friends are fine, thank you for asking.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Midnyte,

I do not recall having posted about 9/11 in crass vulgarities at the time or at any date later.

As it happens, I have been on the phone to friends and family in London to make sure that they were all ok, rather than posting bitter flames on this messageboard. All of my friends are fine, thank you for asking.

LOL WTF??

I haven't even posted on this thread since last week.

And why the fuck would I ask you anything? How the fuck would I know you have friends in London? Jesus christ man, get a fuckign grip.

[masteen]

It's like the bumblebee's flight, you know it shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

An interested tidbit from fluid mechanics 101.

Conventional wisdom and aerodynamics modeling calculated that a bumblebee would need all the energy found in a Snicker's bar to fly for a few seconds. When distilled down to viable organic energy sources, it would translate to several times its body weight per minute.

However, the assumptions were incorrect. At such a small size (insects), air has properties that more closely resemble a liquid as far as flight mechanics go. As a result, insects do not need aerofoils to generate lift and instead can essentially "swim" through the air. When these observations are taken into account, it makes the bumblebee's flight viable and well understood by physics.

Relying upon poor assumptions of aerodynamics is the same fallacy that lead Victorians to claim that "heavier than air" flight was physically impossible.


Tune in next week when we prove that droplets of water cannot form in the sky, then show the "trick" that nature uses to overcome the physics, and finally describe how this lead many early 20th century scientists to believe in cloud "seeding" as a viable means of controling the weather!

I thought it had more to do with micro-vortexes their wings create than the scale at which they interact with the air molecules...

[archeiron]

Where's all the outrage? 10 posts all day long? Where are the posts talking about how the British government knew this was coming and let it happen anyway? Where are the posts about how the UK deserved it. They must been ignorant and insensitive to the Muslim culture. You people make me sick.

My thoughts go out to all those affected and I hope this serves as a global reminder that we must keep fighting terrorism because they will never stop or lose faith as easily as the spoiled free citizens of Democratic countries around the globe.

The question was addressed to everyone (and, admittedly, no one).

Midnyte,

I do not recall having posted about 9/11 in crass vulgarities at the time or at any date later.

As it happens, I have been on the phone to friends and family in London to make sure that they were all ok, rather than posting bitter flames on this messageboard. All of my friends are fine, thank you for asking.

LOL WTF??

I haven't even posted on this thread since last week.

And why the fuck would I ask you anything? How the fuck would I know you have friends in London? Jesus christ man, get a fuckign grip.

As a moderate/liberal, active member of this forum, I answered the question when I found the time to.

You would know that I have friends in London because I speak about in guildchat and have done so for the last 5 years that we have been tagged together.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Sorry Arch. I don't remember every conversation we have had. You cannot expect me to either.

Call me out all you want. I could give a fuck less. I have stopped frequenting this forum. It's a waste of my time and energy. I can get the same feel from conversing with my 4 year old.

[archeiron]

It's like the bumblebee's flight, you know it shouldn't be possible, but there it is.

An interested tidbit from fluid mechanics 101.

Conventional wisdom and aerodynamics modeling calculated that a bumblebee would need all the energy found in a Snicker's bar to fly for a few seconds. When distilled down to viable organic energy sources, it would translate to several times its body weight per minute.

However, the assumptions were incorrect. At such a small size (insects), air has properties that more closely resemble a liquid as far as flight mechanics go. As a result, insects do not need aerofoils to generate lift and instead can essentially "swim" through the air. When these observations are taken into account, it makes the bumblebee's flight viable and well understood by physics.

Relying upon poor assumptions of aerodynamics is the same fallacy that lead Victorians to claim that "heavier than air" flight was physically impossible.


Tune in next week when we prove that droplets of water cannot form in the sky, then show the "trick" that nature uses to overcome the physics, and finally describe how this lead many early 20th century scientists to believe in cloud "seeding" as a viable means of controling the weather!

I thought it had more to do with micro-vortexes their wings create than the scale at which they interact with the air molecules...

You are correct without disputing the layman's answer that I provided. The shape and scale of a bumblebee's wings are not governed by the conventional application of the Navier-Stokes equations as used by "conventional" aerodynamics. The turbulent vortices common, and distruptive, to fixed wing aircraft is actually beneficial to insect flight.

The modeling of a fluid (air) used in aeronautics does not apply to the insect wings, and turbulent flow behaviors conventionally used to study the flow of liquids (and used in meterology) contribute solving the insect flight equations.

Additionally, insect wings vibrate, which is not common in mammalian and avian wings, which makes them more efficient than would otherwise be assumed. Thus, enabling them to oscillilate at a much higher frequency than the nerve firing times for an insect would otherwise indicate.

It is sad, but we actually spent an entire lecture on this topic back in a fluid dynamics class at university.

[Hesten]

Call me out all you want. I could give a fuck less. I have stopped frequenting this forum. It's a waste of my time and energy. I can get the same feel from conversing with my 4 year old.

Does that mean you gonna stop posting here now? And is it a guarantee we can refer to next time you start posting again?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Call me out all you want. I could give a fuck less. I have stopped frequenting this forum. It's a waste of my time and energy. I can get the same feel from conversing with my 4 year old.

Does that mean you gonna stop posting here now? And is it a guarantee we can refer to next time you start posting again?

One of the many things I try to get across on these boards is, there is no such thing as a guarantee. There is no 100%. My intention is not to never post here. I just don't plan on engaging many of the morons here as frequently as I was. You don't want to grow. You want to prove your point and make others who disagree with you look like assholes. I don't live my life that way and since I quit smoking I have realized I am capable of so many things. One of them being not engaging in conversations with people who are incapable of comprehending common sense and logic.

I'm done posting on this particular thread, so don't waste your time.

[kyoukan]

jesus I can hardly stand the irony of you calling other people morons. other than possibly cartalas, there isn't a single person in this forum, and maybe even on the internet, that you can reliably get away with calling them a moron.