Requesting LCD TV Advice

[archeiron]

While I am still reeling from my new job offering and imminent move, I will be looking for a new television in the next few months.

I am looking to buy an LCD (HD) TV. I don't have any desire to have a huge TV so something around 42" should suit my needs. I haven't done the numbers, but I suspect that I will be willing to spend 2-3k when the time comes. As little as I watch TV, this isn't something that I would spend a lot of time appreciating, so it doesn't need to be amazing.

Unfortunately, I feel woefully uninformed as to what to buy and where, as I have not bought a TV in so long. My initial instincts (based upon my knowledge of the LCD monitor market) is to look at Samsung, but I thought it best to ask The Collective(TM) here for advice.

What would you all recommend?

[Ransure]

Ive been selling Samsung LCD's for about 4 years now, and thier televisions up until recently have been less than impressive. Are you thinking of doing a Rear projection LCD or DLP? or a flat panel?... there are market leaders in both categories, but heres how Id rate them.


LCD Flat Panel 30-45"

1) Sharp (thier latest barebones 32" model is $2500 or so right now)(Barebones is HDTV ready, 1366x768 res, with the requsite DVI/HDMI inputs)
2) Samsung (they just put out a new 32" that looks great, not up to snuff IMO with the Sharp, but decent, of course for 3k it should be)

Rear Projection (DLP or LCD)

Right now, Id buy a Mitsubishi DLP rear projection in a second, they use all of the same optics in thier entire line, thier 52" entry level model is $2500 right now as well)

Sony LCD - Great TV's, pretty solid preformance, they were my favorite until Mitsubishi put out thier current models (unless you want to spend 13k on thier new 1080p 70" which is pure sex)

Samsung - they are WAAAAAAYYYYY behind the technology curve for whats available today, no HD tuners in most models (the FCC is fining them pretty heavily for that) and they are using older DLP2 chips that dont have the depth and color IMO that the Mitsubishi's do.

Just my $0.02. But anyone that argues with me is wrong

[Voronwë]

Ransure any thoughts on 34" CRT HDTVs? looking for high quality, but enclosable in furniture i already own, and no need for a home equity loan to fund it

i have thought of the rear projection route. my dad has had a Mitsubishi for awhile and he has been pleased.

[Winnow]

For as little as you watch but are willing to spend 2-3K, you should get a projector...or get two 2405FPW's...either way you can watch the best possible High Definition picture but also be able to use them as a PC display or for Consoles as well.

LCDs in the 40" range seem like such a ripoff. They don't have the resolution of a projector or of the LCD panels made for PCs. The 2405FPW is unique in that it also has component inputs as well as RGB and DVI inputs so you can easily use it as a TV monitor.

If you go just for TV viewing, you'd probably save some money and get a better picture by purchasing a DLP HDTV.

Here's the basics:

Types of HDTVs


There are several kinds of HDTV displays, including direct view, rear-projection, plasma and LCD. But which is right for you?

Direct View CRT

Direct view HDTVs are the least expensive option when considering purchasing a high-definition television. They utilize traditional cathode-ray tube (CRT) technology that powers standard analog TV sets, and as a result, are quite big and bulky -- some units weigh 300 pounds or more. Their relatively low prices make direct view displays popular with consumers, but they will fall out of favor over time as the prices of more sleek plasma and LCD displays continue to decline. It is also worth noting that direct view CRTs generally max out at about 40 inches in screen size.

Pros: Cheapest HDTVs available, excellent brightness and black levels

Cons: Bulky size, somewhat vulnerable to burn-in, not available over 40 inches

Rear-Projection

Rear-projection HDTVs are produced by a variety of technologies, including cathode-ray tube (CRT), digital light processing (DLP), liquid crystal display (LCD) and liquid crystal on silicon (LCoS).

Rear-Projection CRT

Rear-projection CRT displays are available in large sizes (up to 70 inches) and are popular due to their relatively low prices as compared with plasma or LCD. However, they are quite bulky -- with some units being nearly three feet deep -- and can be difficult to view when sitting angled from the TV.

Pros: Relatively inexpensive when compared to plasma or LCD, available in larger screen sizes than direct view CRTs, very good black levels

Cons: Bulky size, picture quality can severely degrade at angles, vulnerable to burn-in, relatively high maintenance compared to other rear-projection technologies

Rear-Projection DLP

Rear-projection DLP (digital light processing) displays are based on microchip technology from Texas Instruments. Light is projected through a color wheel by thousands of tiny tilting mirrors, which reflect the image off the chip onto the screen.

Pros: Better picture quality than rear-projection CRT, not as expensive as plasma or LCD flat-panel, essentially immune to burn-in, excellent brightness levels, great picture color

Cons: More expensive than rear-projection CRT or direct-view CRT, average black level quality (although the latest 1080p models are much improved in this respect), can suffer from “rainbow effect”

Rear-Projection LCD

Rear-projection LCD (liquid crystal display) is based on the same LCD technology that powers the more expensive LCD flat-panel models with liquid crystals sandwiched between two plates of glass. However, as a microdisplay it carries the size and cost advantages of rear-projection.

Pros: Better picture quality than rear-projection CRT, not as expensive as plasma or LCD flat-panel, much less bulky than rear-projection CRT, essentially immune to burn-in

Cons: Poor black levels, not as bright as other technologies, more expensive than rear-projection CRT or direct-view CRT

Rear-Projection LCoS

Rear-projection LCoS (liquid crystal on silicon) is a type of LCD that sandwiches liquid crystals between a plate of glass and a silicon microchip rather than between two layers of glass. Hitachi and JVC are two companies that have made serious investments in LCoS -- which is less proven in production than DLP as a microdisplay technology -- and Sony’s outstanding 70-inch Qualia 006 also features a proprietary form of LCoS, although it retails for a hefty $11,000.

Pros: Much higher resolution and picture quality than rear-projection CRT, much less bulky than rear-projection CRT, much larger screen sizes than plasma or LCD flat-panel

Cons: More expensive than rear-projection CRT or direct-view CRT, economic viability of production is currently unclear

Plasma

Plasma displays get their name from the gas that is trapped inside each of the roughly two million pixels that are contained in an HDTV unit. Plasmas are popular due to their elegance and flatness, as they can be as small as three inches thick. However, they are also quite expensive, ranging in price from $2,500 up to $15,000 or more. The largest plasma currently available is an 80-inch monster manufactured by Samsung that retails for about $70,000. Notably, most plasmas that are $3,000 in price or less are EDTV rather than HDTV.

Pros: High-quality picture, sleek flat-panel display, come in larger sizes than LCD flat panel, brighter and much better black levels than LCD flat panel

Cons: Very expensive, susceptible to burn-in, concerns with life expectancy among lower-end models, consume more power than other types of HDTVs

Liquid Crystal Display (LCD) Flat Panel

LCD flat panel displays use the same technology behind many computer monitors in which light is projected through a layer of liquid crystals and then colorized, producing the on-screen image. Until the last few months, LCD TVs were only available in relatively small sizes compared to their plasma and rear-projection brethren, due primarily to manufacturing limitations. However, major LCD manufacturers such as Sharp, Sony and Samsung have recently introduced much larger screen sizes.

Pros: High-quality picture, sleek flat-panel display, essentially immune to burn-in

Cons: Even more expensive than plasma on a per inch basis, larger sizes just now coming to market, not as bright as plasma displays, poor black levels, motion sequences often somewhat blurry when compared to plasma

Note: on LCD flat panels, some of the Cons have been delt with. The 2405 is super bright and has also taken care of the ghosting/blur with a faster refresh. The TV LCDs will still suffer from the ghosting.

[Zaelath]

I am looking to buy an LCD (HD) TV. I don't have any desire to have a huge TV so something around 42" should suit my needs. I haven't done the numbers, but I suspect that I will be willing to spend 2-3k when the time comes. As little as I watch TV, this isn't something that I would spend a lot of time appreciating, so it doesn't need to be amazing.

When something measured in inches is 3 and a half feet, that's a pretty good indication that it's already "huge".

[pyrella]

about 9 months ago I was in the market as well - I ended up getting a 51" RP CRT Sony - kp51ws520

$1600 ish, not a huge foot print (it + media rack takes up less space than my old entertainment center). Supposedly RP CRT's are best value for the dollar, and have the crispest clearest image....and usually if/when the picture degrades, has the highest chance of being fixed through user or professional service. Has all the good inputs in all the right places, crystal clear image (HD cable is *swooooon*) - on top of all that, it's an awesome monitor. When Saerilyah came out earlier this year, we were out of extra monitors...so we hooked her up with a DVI -> HDMI cable and she had a nice, 1920x1080 51"crystal clear monitor - we could read fine text easily, and graphics were unbelievable.

http://www.hometheaterspot.com has great forums and reviews covering known problems and benefits of just about any kind of TV you can think of (projector/RP/lcd/dlp/you name it) at this point.

[Winnow]

http://www.hometheaterspot.com has great forums and reviews covering known problems and benefits of just about any kind of TV you can think of (projector/RP/lcd/dlp/you name it) at this point.

I'd also recommend the AVS Forums as your one stop shop for all things high end video related:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/

You'll get excellent info from the 20K+ Systems down to the 1-2K stuff in all areas from Projectors, Rear Screens to CRTs. Scroll down to the Display Devices forums.

[Ransure]

For as little as you watch but are willing to spend 2-3K, you should get a projector...or get two 2405FPW's...either way you can watch the best possible High Definition picture but also be able to use them as a PC display or for Consoles as well.

LCDs in the 40" range seem like such a ripoff. They don't have the resolution of a projector or of the LCD panels made for PCs. The 2405FPW is unique in that it also has component inputs as well as RGB and DVI inputs so you can easily use it as a TV monitor.

If you go just for TV viewing, you'd probably save some money and get a better picture by purchasing a DLP HDTV.

Note: on LCD flat panels, some of the Cons have been delt with. The 2405 is super bright and has also taken care of the ghosting/blur with a faster refresh. The TV LCDs will still suffer from the ghosting.

A couple of problems with your idea Winnow, while the 2405FP is a kickass monitor, and it probobly does great on television with external video processing (none internal) I would never recommend it as a primary display (Im looking at getting a 2005FP and 2405FP to augment my 20" Sharp LCD TV for my bedroom system).

The 30-40" flat panel TV's that are out there are not a ripoff, they have circuits designed to do very different things than monitors... computer resolution is done in dots (1920x1200, 1400x1050 WS, 1600x1200 4:3) Television resolution is recorded and displayed in lines of resolution, your computer video card compensates for the conversion from lines to dots on a computer monitor when watching TV, but on HDTV, analog video, ect... the PC display will not outperform a real TV. Also, super bright does not equate to a properly tuned image, it just equates to really bright colors that dont look quite right.

For a Family Room/entertainment area display, I really think the aestetic goes a long way into how good the perceived image is. Meaning, if the room looks kickass with things turned off, then it will look even better with things turned on.

Heres whats on the wall of my Family Room, arguably the most color accurate video display ever.



While Im a huge fan of Front Projectors(biggest part of my income!), Im not a huge fan in the wrong room. Heres a pic of the dedicated theater I put in my Dad's basement





Notice the colors of the room and the ceiling, dark, non reflective colors, the front wall is a flat burgundy (black would be better) to increase perceived contrast and depth. There is 100% lighting control in the room, and it cost us about 12k to put the whole thing together (with 7k in chairs).

Now heres a friend of mines condo that I helped him put a front projector into, at night, hey, its great. The install looks really clean, but you cant show it off with the lights on anywhere in the Family Room.





Looks pretty good in the dark, like ass in the light.

Voro, in CRT TV's Sony is the undisputed king... the KV34HS510 is just a few steps below thier 34XBR960 (best CRT ever built). It runs about $1600 bucks though, if you dont have an extremely bright room. Look into a 42 or 46" slim rear projection (DLP/LCD) it will be more bang for the buck, and weigh less than 300lbs

[Trias]

voro, check this out...it's an awesome 34 inch crt/tube set

i haven't seen any 34 incher that beats it

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSH ... to36%22TVs#

[Trias]

i'll be buying that set for my bedroom with stand sometime in august

[Winnow]

oh my fucking god. I just lost a huge post. god damn it. jesus fucking christ. HUGE post. I'm not typing all that again. God damn it.

fuck fuck fuck

Here's a weak Summary:

The 2405 will perform every but as good as the LCD TVs out there. It all depends on the source it's being fed. People are going to be getting that source from cableboxes, satellite receivers, DVD players, PC, consoles, etc.

I have no clue what you're talking about with lines vs dots. LCD TVs have dots as well that make up the lines they just have fewer lines of dots than the 2405's 1200 horizontal rows. After that it comes down to processing. My projector doesn't process anything (it can scale if needed), it displays the source it's given. A LCD TV with a tuner built in is going to get you a handful of OTA HD stations that your cable or satellite (direcTV at least) will provide you anyway without the need for a big OTA UHF antenna.

If you want to see how well the 2405 or any other display can really perform you need to setup something like Zoomplayer, get some decent codecs like nvDVD and then use FDDShow for your post processing:

http://htpcnews.com/main.php?id=ffdshowdvd_1

People don't realize how much of a difference the processing they use matters even on the same display.

----
As for your pictures of your dad's home theater room and your friends brightly lit room, I don't think you're giving an accurate picture of all the possibilities. Your dad's dedicated room rocks but I'm not the type that can just sit and watch a movie and then have to move to go use my computer, etc. I have everything in one location so I don't have to move more than 2 feet to access anything. I can control the lighting in my living room which is all that's required. When you start getting into the color of walls and sound absorbing materials, etc, then you're talking about a high end complete audio/video solution. If Arch isn't going to have the sound system to back up the picture then it will only be half the experience anyway.

Of course you can't view a front projector in daylight or a brightly lit room but there are compromises. I have my computer (bright 2405) and a deskplamp on in my living room while watching my 120" screen and the picture is awesome. It may be 90% of a perfect image in a 100% dark room but far from unwatchable and blows away any puny 40" screen for watching movies, HD, DVDs (post processed), or any other high quality source. It's a tru awe inspiring "movie" experience and a whole other world when watching sports like football, basketball and baseball in HD compared to a tiny TV.

The reason I mentioned the 2405 is because Arch didn't seem like an avid TV watcher so he may as well get something that can perform much better than DLPs, Plasmas, 30"+ LCDs in other areas. With the 2405 he'll be able to play PS3 games in 1080P (thats progressive, not 1080i interlaced). That's something that no other LCD TV, DLP, Projector or otherwise can do under 20K in the home theater market.

If Arch is looking for something to impress the neighbors while it's turned off, then I'd suggest a DLP screen in the 40-50 inch category for price performance along with the pretty box wrapped around the screen.

[Winnow]

Here's a quick example of what I'm talking about in post processing:

First image is the standard 480P image from a DVD:



Second image is exact same source post processed with FDDShow and upscaled to take advantage of a high res monitor (like the 2405 or a projector! (anything with more than 480 lines)



There's lots of examples on the link I provided above. You're missing out people!

[Ransure]

Mitsubishi will have a HD3 DLP rear projection 52" TV that does 1080p by September (so they say) for $3700.

Sharp has a 45" LCD thats 1920x1080p (true HD resolution) $7k

Sony's 70" Qualia 006 is $13k

The 2405 is an awesome display, dont get me wrong... but unless your tweaking out your video card, using FDDshow, and maybe building an HTPC (which would still preform better on a television).

Video processing is what FDDshow and other codecs do to convert the line resolution to pixel resolution. It takes a good deal of tweaking a PC to do as well as a TV will do right out of the box, can it be done? sure, with the right know how...

The lines vs dots thing... TV/DVD all video is recorded and remasterd in lines of resolution, the reason CRT's do such a good job with a variety of sources, is that they display lines of resolution. The hardest job any digital display (plasma, DLP, LCD, L-COS, ect) has to do is take in the lines of resolution, and convert them to dots for the digital tv to display.

The 1200 lines in the 2405 are still being interpolated to upconvert an image (depending on how your processing it, you still have more horizontal lines than you have resolution). About 80% of what people watch today is 480i or 480p, I think the comparable is 720x480 pixel resolution. Video processors can upconvert that and preserve and increase video quality. A display designed to do that will just about always outperform a display built to just do what its told.

Of course, I havent done much mediaPC stuff except on my current 19" CRT, the 2005FP should be ordered next payday and Ill be picking up whatever PVR card that has a QAM tuner that I can get. I might change my tune after tweaking for a while. But my clients will never hear that from me!

As someone who designs A/V systems for a living, television to most people is a mindless activity.... if you have to put too much thought into it, you start taking the enjoyment out.

[Ransure]

Heh, Ive used that same scene pretty extensively to show quality differences between displays... the average non tech consumer will pay 4-8k for a video scaler to do what those codecs are doing.....

If I could find cards to take all of my HD, Analog, HDMI/DVI content and switch it through a PC... that would make any display look great... but then I add the cost of the computer to my TV price

[Winnow]

Heh, Ive used that same scene pretty extensively to show quality differences between displays... the average non tech consumer will pay 4-8k for a video scaler to do what those codecs are doing.....

If I could find cards to take all of my HD, Analog, HDMI/DVI content and switch it through a PC... that would make any display look great... but then I add the cost of the computer to my TV price

Pay 4-8K for a scaler? Those codecs, FDDshow etc are basically free. You then have 4-8K to spend on one ungodly powerful PC that will perform better than the 4K scaler with the horsepower it can crunch at.

I still don't know why you keep saying it will perform better on a TV than 2405. My projector is an LCD...it just projects the micro LCD panels instead of display them directly like the 2405. I can plug my DirecTV HD Satellite receiver directly into my Projector or directly into my 2405FPW and get a great picture without the aid of FDDshow...FDDshow is used because DVDs are a crappy 480 lines and suck when you have 720 to 1200 lines to work with on a quality display...HD source comes in at 720P or 1080i so that's not an issue.

[Winnow]

Mitsubishi will have a HD3 DLP rear projection 52" TV that does 1080p by September (so they say) for $3700.

Sharp has a 45" LCD thats 1920x1080p (true HD resolution) $7k

Sony's 70" Qualia 006 is $13k

Now those aren't too shabby but still a bit more expensive than Arch's price range.

BTW, I don't mean to be promoting the 2405 as a primary TV for a serious watcher, but it packs a huge punch for 900.00 for someone that may end up using it as the best PC LCD monitor around.

The Misubishi for $3700 that hasn't come out yet looks like a nice choice for the next generation of TVs over what's available today.

You can even buy DVD Home Theater players now that do their own upscaling to 1080i for relatively cheap.

[Ransure]

I have owned a few of the 1080i upsampling DVD players... and for the most part, they suck ass... heh, I even sold a client a $6k 1080i upsampling DVD player with a Snell and Wilcox (high end pro video company) scaler built in... unfortunately I was even embaressed to admit that it didnt outperform a $1k Sony reference DVD player...

Pixel count, lines of resolution, contrast ratio, lumens, response time... while that stuff makes a difference, its not the last word in video. I have an ISF tech that occasionally tweaks out my high end projectors on jobsites and he explains it a whole hell of a lot better than I do... then again, thats what he's paid to do. Ive seen him make an EDTV LCD projector look better than a $12k DLP2+ projector.

Arch, if your looking for a sweet Family/Living room in your new place... get a bigger flat panel.

If your looking for a more utilitarian approach, I agree with a few of Winnow's points.... a $900 flat panel, $1500 projector, and a good HDMI distribution switch $500 might give you a pretty kickass room.

[archeiron]

A really thin DLP (12" or less) might do, but I am strongly leaning towards LCD Flat Panel for the look. Having said that, I want something that I can hook up a PS3, XBO 360, or HD cable channels and enjoy the picture on. To complicate matters, we are moving so I don't know what my next room layout will be, but it will certainly be in rented property for six months or so. While a 52" TV might be nice at some point, I just don't like television enough to want something that big in the room I chill out in. This is definately something that I want to be inobtrusive in a lounge/family room/den/whatever environment, and I don't want a behemoth TV or TV and cabinet cramping my style.

So what I am hearing is that Sharp is a good choice for the LCD Flat Panel and Mitsubishi has a great DLP: is that about accurate?


p.s. Winnow, your advice is appreciated. I will probably be purchasing the 2405FPW later this year to replace my dated monitor.

[Ransure]

Yea Arch, thats it... Sharp makes about 4 models in every size range... but honestly.. they all use the same panel/video processor... there are just some differences with the HD tuners and such... buy the cheapest of the current generation and you should love it (LC32GA5U).

Right now Mitsubishi is top dog... when you start looking for a bigger screen, ask again, in RPTV theres a different king of the hill every 6 months or so.

[Fash]

this is off topic essentially... but the budget consumer can have a satisfactory 50-100" 1024x768 projection screen for about $500. By ebaying an OHP and an LCD Panel.

A few years back on ebay, I got a 640x480 projection panel that you could see the screendoor effect on... but it was still enjoyable because of the size. The 1024x768 I have now is a lot better...

I wish they made higher resolution panels for OHP use... the real engineering fellow could hack his own panel from a regular monitor.. but the size of the OHP stage makes that less beneficial.

[Ransure]

You can get an entry level 1366x768 front projector for about $1k-1.5k these days.... The advantage is the optics and light loss are far less than youd get from an OHP...

Really though, I dont think good picture quality comes into play until you hit the 3-4k projector mark.

[Winnow]

this is off topic essentially... but the budget consumer can have a satisfactory 50-100" 1024x768 projection screen for about $500. By ebaying an OHP and an LCD Panel.

A few years back on ebay, I got a 640x480 projection panel that you could see the screendoor effect on... but it was still enjoyable because of the size. The 1024x768 I have now is a lot better...

I wish they made higher resolution panels for OHP use... the real engineering fellow could hack his own panel from a regular monitor.. but the size of the OHP stage makes that less beneficial.

That would be nice as something to play around with but I wouldn't settle for anything less than 1280X720 in a projector for quality viewing of an HD source. You could probably throw up a DVD on the home made thing without post processing and enjoy the show though. If you really want a projector that bad, X1s and Z1s which are 1024X768 run around 799.00 now with no hassles of tinkering.

Just remember in the cheaper projectors:

DLP = Rainbow effect
LCD = Vertical Banding

To go along with the lower resolution.

[Ransure]

The screenshots of my friends place is a Z1 FYI... a decent bit of bang for the buck.

Low end DLP's give me headaches... as I can see colorwheels on a good amount of projectors, even on a few RP DLP's.