Meet the "Entitlement Generation"

[Ransure]

These kids today, they want it all
Twentysomethings being dubbed `Entitlement Generation' for their lofty job expectations

By Martha Irvine
Associated Press

June 27, 2005

Evan Wayne thought he was prepared for anything during a recent interview for a job in radio sales.

Then the interviewer hit the 24-year-old Chicagoan with this: "So, we call you guys the `Entitlement Generation,'" the Baby Boomer executive said, expressing an oft-heard view of today's young workforce. "You think you're entitled to everything."

Such labeling is, perhaps, a rite of passage for every crop of twentysomethings. In their day, Baby Boomers were rabble-rousing hippies, while Gen Xers were apathetic slackers.

Now, deserved or not, this generation is being pegged, too--as one with shockingly high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company.

"We're seeing an epidemic of people who are having a hard time making the transition to work--kids who had too much success early in life and who have become accustomed to instant gratification," says Dr. Mel Levine, a pediatrics professor at the University of North Carolina and author of a book on the topic called "Ready or Not, Here Life Comes."

While Levine also notes that today's twentysomethings are long on idealism and altruism, "many of the individuals we see are heavily committed to something we call `fun.'"

He partly faults coddling parents and colleges for doing little to prepare students for the realities of adulthood.

Meanwhile, employers are frustrated.

"It seems they want and expect everything that the 20- or 30-year veteran has the first week they're there," says Mike Amos, a Salt Lake City-based franchise consultant for Perkins Restaurants.

Just about any twentysomething will tell you they know someone like this, and may even have some of those high expectations themselves.

Wayne had this response for his interviewer at the radio station: "Maybe we WERE spoiled by your generation. But I think the word `entitled' isn't necessarily the word. Do we think we're deserving if [we work hard] for you? Yes."

He ended up getting the job--and, as he starts this month, is vowing to work hard.

Some experts who study young people think having some expectations, and setting limits with bosses, isn't necessarily negative.

"It's true they're not eager to bury themselves in a cubicle and take orders from bosses for the next 40 years, and why should they?" asks Jeffrey Arnett, a University of Maryland psychologist who wrote a book on "emerging adulthood," the period between age 18 and 25.

Anthony DeBetta, a 23-year-old New Yorker, works with other twentysomethings at a small marketing firm--and says the company's size makes him feel like he can make a difference.

"We have a vested interest in the growth of this firm," he says.

Elsewhere, Liz Ryan speculates that a more relaxed work environment at the company she runs--no set hours and "a lot of latitude in how our work gets done"--helps inspire her younger employees.

"Maybe twentysomethings have figured out something that Boomers like me took two decades to piece together: namely, that there's more to life than by-the-book traditional career success," says Ryan, the 45-year-old CEO of a Colorado-based company called WorldWIT, an on and offline networking organization for professional women.

As much as some employers would like to resist the trend, a growing number are searching for ways to retain twentysomething employees--and to figure out what makes them tick.

Amos at Perkins Restaurants says small changes also have helped--loosening standards on piercings or allowing cooks to play music in the kitchen.


Copyright © 2005, Chicago Tribune

Well, this struck home with me... a HS dropout that was making 100k a year at 21... then I made 25k when I was 25.... Now Im getting back to where I was... but damn, what a tough pill to swallow. I have quit the company I work for now 4 times over the past 4 years due to feeling underpaid. But I think they finally realize that its worthwhile to have me around

[Fash]

I've seen this suggestion before.... I do see similarities to myself in it, as I made the most money at age 21, then it dropped, and since then I've left 2 places for more money, and the last place over being underpaid... I used to know exactly what I wanted to do, and the job market has thrown it asunder..

We live on a society based on a very small scale of time, with a disproportionate amount of technology as time goes on. society itself is evolving, but the institutions created upon it are resisting...

There is more to life than working... we are looking to have fun and enjoy life... we are not satisfied being our parents.

[Arborealus]

Fuck money...you can't make more time when you need it...

[Ransure]

Well, I have decided after taking most of last year off of work, and travelling a good bit of Europe... that I like money a-lot(FU word filter).. and Im willing to work for it.

Of course, in my latest new position in my old company, I have 100% flexibility with my time/hours... as long as the results are there. So as soon as I think the money is where I want it to be, then I can make more time for other things. Ive even gotten them to agree to long leaves of absence if I want it

[Pherr the Dorf]

Money doesn'y buy you happiness
but it lets you pick your pain

[Winnow]

There is more to life than working... we are looking to have fun and enjoy life... we are not satisfied being our parents.

Hell yes. Work sucks for 90% of the jobs out there. That's why I surf the net 80% of my work day. I can live with a job that requires about one day a week of real work if I'm going to be employed in the mega corporate world. (working for yourself or something you care about is a different story) You've got to look for the sweet spots. Too hard a job and you get frazzled, stressed and won't really enjoy life as much...too easy and no toys for you! "Hey Winnow, how'd you like to take over managing project "X"? Nope! More money but a lot more work. Is that money worth losing ..lets see...6 hours a day times 240 work days a year - 4 weeks vacation and holidays = the equivalent of 150 days a year of my life I'm free to think about whatever I wish even if at work? Nay! (case by case of course)

There are two types of jobs. Ones that force you to think completely about your job and those that allow your mind to wander. Both jobs may pay the same but a job that requires total concentration...be it white collar or blue collar, is severe wear and tear on your personal quality of life. If you're just starting out...a similar comparison would be a job that has set goals to meet or defined tasks to meet and then you're done, compared to one that requires "busy work" in which no matter how hard you work, there's always more work to keep you busy. Avoid the "busy work" jobs.

I'm referring to the corporate world. There are actual jobs out there that are enjoyable. I'm always jealous of scientists, novelists, certain types of researchers and the self employed. (including Day Trading - the best job ever which I'll go back to if I ever have to actually work at my present job) The next best thing is a job that allows you the most "free" time to focus on things that matter to you.

The 40 hour work week is outdated. We need to be working 4 or even 3 days a week for the same pay. People used to have to work every day of their lives...then almost every day...then 80 hours a week...40 hours a week...we're past due for another reduction in work hours per week. It's not laziness, it's a logical progression.

I'm like Milton in Office Space. I think they fired me 3 years ago but there's a glitch in the system that keeps paying me. I go to meetings, mumble about something similar to TPS reports, delegate all my responsibilities and head back to Storage Room B which has nice windows.

If the "Bobs" ever showed up at my workplace I'd be in trouble! "What is it you actually do here?" I'm a people person damn it! I deal with the god damned people so the engineers don't have to! What's the matter with you people!

On a closing note, there is some truth to what the "Bobs" said in Office Space. "We don't think he's being challenged enough". That's completely true of way too many jobs out there in large corporations. We need to reevaluate how jobs are structured. I don't mean giving everyone new titles.

A little more pride in the company you work for similar to Japanese companies wouldn't hurt either. These days, the majority could give a shit who they work for. I remember when I got hired on by Motorola how happy I was because I set that as my goal years before while just starting out in college. The bastards laid me off after five years but initially there was some pride there! I was proud of our products...except I could never understand why we always used Intel CPUs...just not right in a company co-producing PowerPC chips for Macs. And then the whole Iridium fiasco...and then Teledesic bombed...then the military contracts dried up...then the complete collapse of their semiconductor sector...what a fucked up company! Fuck them! Fuck them right in the ass!

[kyoukan]

and then your under skilled lazy ass gets outsourced to some indian for 25 cents an hour and I come back to when I bookmarked this thread and laugh my ass off.

or you could work your ass off putting in long hours for little pay and zero recognition when some clueless business school reject executive who's job you should rightfully have by virtue of the fact you actually know what the fuck you are doing in your industry figures out he can save 12 cents per annum by wiping out your entire department and relocating it to calcutta, and your hard working ass gets outsourced to some indian for 25 cents an hour and I still come back to when I bookmarked this thread and laugh my ass off.

[Canelek]

Let's not harsh on sweatshops.

[Winnow]

and then your under skilled lazy ass gets outsourced to some indian for 25 cents an hour and I come back to when I bookmarked this thread and laugh my ass off.

or you could work your ass off putting in long hours for little pay and zero recognition when some clueless business school reject executive who's job you should rightfully have by virtue of the fact you actually know what the fuck you are doing in your industry figures out he can save 12 cents per annum by wiping out your entire department and relocating it to calcutta, and your hard working ass gets outsourced to some indian for 25 cents an hour and I still come back to when I bookmarked this thread and laugh my ass off.

Don't lose your cock sucking skills! Mooching off your husband is much more respectable!

If Habib takes my job at some point which I doubt, so be it. The opportunity to advance is there to be Habib's boss if that happens. The trade off would be more money but less free time or alternatively load up another nice severance package and take another year off.

[Canelek]

Actually, those Indian 'Help Desks' take away a good number of jobs from beginning to mid-level in the IT/IS industry. Maybe you are above such emplyment intrusions, but there are many many people here in the US that are affected by not only the H1-B visas, but the market pressure of such cheap labor.

Kinda sucks ass to work for 10 years of your life to lose such big salary gains by having your job pawned off to cut-rate shops overseas. Do you think those of us in this industry enjoy what we do for anything other than a decent check?

[Winnow]

Actually, those Indian 'Help Desks' take away a good number of jobs from beginning to mid-level in the IT/IS industry. Maybe you are above such emplyment intrusions, but there are many many people here in the US that are affected by not only the H1-B visas, but the market pressure of such cheap labor.

Kinda sucks ass to work for 10 years of your life to lose such big salary gains by having your job pawned off to cut-rate shops overseas. Do you think those of us in this industry enjoy what we do for anything other than a decent check?

I know it happens and not just for mid-level. I've seen it happen to someone making ~125K.

That has nothing to do with my comments though. Whether I work my ass off or not, Habib would be cheaper than me if my job involved programming or tech support etc. This gets back to my remarks about American companies needing to develop something more like the Japanese have going. A company that is full of employees that take pride in their work and the company they work for is also worth sharing the wealth with its employees and not deem it necessary to suck out every last drop of profit by hiring slave labor from India.

Picture something like Apple and Microsoft during the 80's and early 90's. They had a culture and shared profits through stock options that resulted in very loyal employees that cared about their products and services.

[Aabidano]

Picture something like Apple and Microsoft during the 80's and early 90's. They had a culture and shared profits through stock options that resulted in very loyal employees that cared about their products and services.

They had cultures of (frequently brilliant) no life employees who were perfectly happy to work 80 hour weeks.. It was their life. That they cared about the products a lot usually means they were at places with good leaders, not managers. Of course you've only got so many people around willing to do that, and that have the ability.

Put a no clue MBA in charge, that will turn around any booming business.

Bust your ass, make a lot of money, burn out and go work elsewhere with a killer resume. That was the drill for a long time. Many 20 somethings want the results, but don't feel they need to do step "A".

A lot of the folks I saw come into IT with an MCSE and some HTML knowledge aren't in IT anymore, and quite frequently aren't making $80-100k anymore either. During the boom they made a lot of money, but lack of depth, or sometimes just a roll of the HR dice killed most of them off and they can't get back to where they were in todays market. Most of those that busted their ass and grew\diversified their skills are still around. Schools flooded the market with people with high expectations and no experience.

Kind of like my customers that want 99.9999% availability, but want to pay "IP world" equipment prices.

*Edit - I work with a lot of programmers in India, Poland, China, etc.. Very technically sharp people, with no experience. You can be the best coder in the world, but if you don't understand the technology you're trying to implement your product will quite likely be a PoS. In the enviroment they work in, that's not likely to change anytime soon. China has tech support trade schools in operation and will be running sweat shop tech support orginazations on a large scale fairly soon. Just like India 5 years ago, and Japan 30 years ago once the hook is in prices will rise as the shareholders and workers demand more and more.

[Chidoro]

I had the "benefit" of graduating college around one of the difficult times, in 1992. Graduated as an actuarial analyst and the only job I could get w/ benefits was as a bank teller.

It really sucked seeing grads 5 or 6 years later, once I got into financial reporting, get salaries similar to my own, around 35k, after I had to claw through a starting salary of 19k. People I know of that age seem to expect a whole lot more than they deserve. As a matter of fact, I would say that recent grads w/in the last 3 or 4 years are far more realistic than the ones in the mid to late 90's.

Now I basically to contractual work because my wife provides the benefits for both of us. It's allowed me to see many different types of office environments these last few years. The previous office I worked at seemed relatively laid back when it wasn't during closing. Most everyone left on time. The current position I work at has an entirely different environment. Part of it is because I'm providing sales support and the sales reps are workoholics(extremely well paid ones as you would expect from a person who sells expensive medical devices for a living). But the general atmosphere is anyone can be contacted at any time and shouldn't be surprised when they are.

I can see the lure of the latter as it keeps you engaged and sharp. I can see the lure of the former because most everyone seems to genuinely be pleasant and things other than work actually interest them. It seems to me that unless you go into business for yourself, it's awfully difficult to find work that "toes the line" so to speak.

[Bubba Grizz]

A lot of this changes when you get married and start having kids. You can't be as picky when you know that you need to provide a home and food for your family you tend to look for something that is going to be a bit more stable. Again, it all depends on what you are willing to sacrifice or compromise on.

[Diae Soulmender]

Started at my company as an entry level Techical Support Tech for Internet Services back in 1997.

It is now 2005 and I head up our Network Operations Center.

Beginning pay.. $6.50/hr.
Today $15.25/hr.

No education. No certifications. It is all 100% hard work, ots of learning and effort. Im the guy known to give you a 'no bullshit answer' and get the job done.

CCNA coming soon :) (yay 10% raise)

Every guy working for me now is 20something and Ill tell you right now they are some hard working mother fuckers with loyalty. Generally speaking though I believe the original post. 20somethings today are generally lazy pieces of crap who want the world handed to them on a silver platter.

Pussys. Your Daddy didnt beat your ass hard enough when you were kids. Mommy probably gave you a 'timeout'. "Timeout" -- who was the fucking genious who thought of this? The coddled generation is what I call you. If it aint free, free of hardwork, free of pressure, free of obligation then you wont do it unless it pays 3x's what the effort is worth.

I remember mowing lawns and washing cars in my neighborhood when I was 12 for $5.00 which probably equates to around $15.00 today. Want to know how many kids I see doing this or have knocked on my door? None and the ones I track down to do it want $25-30.00 to mow my lawn (My lawn can be mowed in less then 1 hour easily).

For you 20somethings who have children... beat your kids severely and put the fear of God in to them. Take away there bicycle helmets and let them live the real life. Bumps and bruises are what life offers them. let them experience them, feel the pain and bleed. It will make them a better person. Let them smoke pot, but beat them for doing so. Show your displeasure at a poor report card by beating the shit out of them then grounding them with no TV, Radio, Movies or telephone for 2 weeks.

Stop fucking your kids by coddling them and "harshing on there mellow". Beat them and show them whos the boss. Pain is the only cure.

Edit:
Oh and let me add this also. Dont buy them there car. Dont help them buy there car and force them to get a fucking JOB once they are 16. My first paying job was at Shari's Restaraunt as a Dishwasher 20 hours per week at age 14. Dont know what the laws are today, but I bought my car myself with no help at age 15.5 -- Harsh there Mellow and make them work, beat them and show them that life is good if you work hard.

[Bubba Grizz]

Pussys. Your Daddy didnt beat your ass hard enough when you were kids. Mommy probably gave you a 'timeout'. "Timeout" -- who was the fucking genious who thought of this? The coddled generation is what I call you. If it aint free, free of hardwork, free of pressure, free of obligation then you wont do it unless it pays 3x's what the effort is worth.

I remember mowing lawns and washing cars in my neighborhood when I was 12 for $5.00 which probably equates to around $15.00 today. Want to know how many kids I see doing this or have knocked on my door? None and the ones I track down to do it want $25-30.00 to mow my lawn (My lawn can be mowed in less then 1 hour easily).

For you 20somethings who have children... beat your kids severely and put the fear of God in to them. Take away there bicycle helmets and let them live the real life. Bumps and bruises are what life offers them. let them experience them, feel the pain and bleed. It will make them a better person. Let them smoke pot, but beat them for doing so. Show your displeasure at a poor report card by beating the shit out of them then grounding them with no TV, Radio, Movies or telephone for 2 weeks.

Stop fucking your kids by coddling them and "harshing on there mellow". Beat them and show them whos the boss. Pain is the only cure.

Edit:
Oh and let me add this also. Dont buy them there car. Dont help them buy there car and force them to get a fucking JOB once they are 16. My first paying job was at Shari's Restaraunt as a Dishwasher 20 hours per week at age 14. Dont know what the laws are today, but I bought my car myself with no help at age 15.5 -- Harsh there Mellow and make them work, beat them and show them that life is good if you work hard.

AMEN!

[Sylvos]

Hell yeah diae!

[masteen]

I agree with the sentiment, Diae, but there are so many there/their/they're errors in that post that Mr. Webster is spinning in his grave.

[Chidoro]

probably beaten too hard

[Ashur]

Awsome post, Diae (all spelling/grammar mistakes aside)

My first "real" job (I was a bartender out of college...) was Technical Support at CompuServe back in 1993, back before the Internet boomed with PPP and Windows 95. I busted my ass and was made a Supervisor in '95 and finally broke $30K. Most everyone who worked there had a degree at the time. Mine wasn't finished, but hard work paid off.

I held a number of different Project Management and Product Marketing/Management roles after that working for a variety of telecoms and now I work at a major bank as an IT Project Manager.

The outsourcing trend scares me, as I see more and more work flow to Bangalore, India etc every year. The technology sector is frightening to work in any more due to M&A, sourcing to achieve cost efficiences (slang for giving your job to someone in another country who is oftimes just as qualified, but can work for a fraction of the cost), the ever-present fear of layoffs (laid off twice myself; thanks to WorldCom - both times! Die and burn in hell Bernie Ebbers!).

If younger people want my opinion, get into the healthcare field. The Baby Boomers are getting up there in age and there's little chance that they will go to India or China to visit the doctor. Every time I look at the Classifieds the healthcare openings represent 30%+ of the openings.

[Sheryl]

my brother is 10 years younger, and he is experiencing a whole other method of parenting than i did. after just 10 years my parents have turned into total pussies.

at 16 my parents cut off my allowance and made me get a job. i paid for my own gas, bought my car, got a credit card to start building my credit score, handled all my own crap. my brother just got a brand new car paid for by my parents, he's never paid a dime for insurance or gas and has never had a job. for prom, my mom handed him her discover card. he's 17 years old.

i don't think that he's had any kind of discipline since elementary school, spanking or otherwise. he mouths off to my parents constantly with no fear of being punished. when i messed up, i knew i was going to be in some shit. my parents only had to physically discipline me like two or three times, but it was the fear of it that kept me in line.

i have no idea why the change in parenting style, but i can already see he's crippled by it. he has never had to learn how to be responsible with money. he doesn't have any kind of credit built, no respect for hard work, no respect for adults, no experience paying bills. i really worry about him getting blind-sided by "real life" when he gets out on his own after college.

[noel]

I have a different theory about Ransure and I. I'm fairly certain he's the same age as me.

When I started working, the telecom industry was booming. I went from making 18k (20) a year to 33k (22) a year to 36k (22) a year to 96k (23) a year. The main reason for this was that in the mid-90s, there was a huge demand for IT people, and a lot of kids grew up with computers/modems/etc. and knew what was going on. The smart ones rolled their knowledge into a job, and learned in what was surely a baptism by fire. The really smart ones realized that they were overpaid, and needed to round out their knowledge, and spent their free time learning, getting certified, reading RFCs, or like me, taking a much lower paying job (at 25) to go to an environment where they could vastly increase their knowledge.

Unfortunately, the dot com bust happened, and there wasn't as much need. You had companies doing whatever they could to save costs (including outsourcing to India -- hell, outsourcing EVERYTHING in some cases), massive reductions in force, no raises for YEARS, etc. I managed to survive all that, and it looks like soon I'll have the opportunity to exceed what I was making when I was 23... Seems bass ackward from what my expectations were when I entered the business world, but I have maintained a good work ethic, and kept my eyes and ears open for new opportunities to increase my knowledge and salary.

[Chidoro]

You weren't salaried at 96k were you? I'm assuming you worked a ton of hours (which wasn't unusual for the 80 hour weeks I remember our IT guys were putting in in the late 90's). It's just that I was doing budget work during that time frame so I had the benefit of knowing everyone's salary and the six figure or near six figure mark wasn't even given to director level individuals. Our IT guys (I was working at the now defunct RCN at the time) were salaried and rarely got more than 45k. Maybe the market was a lot different in NJ at that time and certainly the economy of scale in your neck of the woods is a lot higher than where I was at that time.

I was reading an article the other day about the real shortage of IT majors entering college these days. Even with the outsourcing issues, they are forseeing it as a real problem. But really, can you blame them? Now I work in a company that's a medium sized complany owned by a HUGE company. If I need something solved or installed, I don't need the guy to come to my pc to do it, he just takes over my mouse after I give him permission and away we go. Wasn't like that even five years ago. All I can see IT guys doing around here is set up the workstations.

Thinking now about college majors, if I had to do it all over again, I would have kicked my advisor in the nuts for directing me to be an actuary. I would have had my mba by '93 on my track. So maybe kids are constantly being misadvised.

[noel]

You weren't salaried at 96k were you? I'm assuming you worked a ton of hours (which wasn't unusual for the 80 hour weeks I remember our IT guys were putting in in the late 90's).

I was an independent consultant working for the LA City Fire Department making $46 per hour at that time. I was working 45-60 hours per week most weeks.

[Chidoro]

That kicks ass. I never saw the sun while working at that shithole known as RCN, but it was "expected of us".

Jesus, just thinking back, I used to get so pissed having to hang around later than needed because a couple of douches couldn't use a vending machine at 8 pm and waste 30+ minutes of everyone's time staring at a fucking pizza or chinese menu. Not to mention the 30+ minutes while the same douches took to chat and eat. Umm, excuse me bitches but Inny is up tonight, buy some Rold Gold's and shut your pie holes!

[masteen]

I will say that listening to a college advisor is prolly the WORST idea any incoming freshman can make. The agenda those people have is NOT to figure out what is in your best interest, but to direct you down paths to buff the school's 4 year graduation rate, even if you're in a 5 year engineering program.

Yes, taking Calc 1, Chem 1 (+lab), Honors Microeconomics, Gen. Psych, Marching Band, and the mandatory Honors Seminar was a fucking GREAT idea for a kid who squeeked into a scholarship because I test well.

[Deward]

During my Master's work we studied the differences in the different generations work ethics and expectations. Baby Boomers were much more loyal to their companies and tended to stick in one spot for a long time. Today's generation is definitely looking out for themselves first. During our discussions we deduced that this wasn't jsut a problem with employee loyalty, it was a big problem because companies were no longer loyal to their workers. Today's generation has seen the outsourcing and cutting of jobs that were considered by baby boomers to be safe. This has shown them that there is no reason to be loyal to a company because it probably will not be loyal to them.

As for the comment about giving everything to kids, I sort of disagree. I had my first job at 13 and pretty much had to work my butt off my whole childhood. I never received an allowance, car, etc. Because of that I never had time for any sports or other extra-curricular activities. I regret that very badly now. For my kids, I want them to experience the sports and EC activities that I didn't get too. I also will insist that they only work in the summers and maybe one day a week during the school year. A good work ethic is important but if you get kids too used to earning money at an early age then they may not want to quit what they think is a high paying job to go to college. My brother is a pretty smart guy who should have gone to college but he thought he was making it big with his $12/hour job and got stuck in that rut. I want my kids to focus on education first. They have plenty of time for a real life later.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Everything is cylclical. I would fully expect a lot of outsourced IT jobs to come back to the US as customers start to demand better service. We are already seeing it internally as the copany I provide service for outsourced their IT to Costa Rica. What you find is that everyone hates dealing with them as the language barriers are impossible to deal with for long. Not to mention that they generally make things worse than the original problem was.

At some point, companies are going to do what we saw here and offer "premium services" which the customers will demand once they have had a trial on it. What that really means is that for double the price they had been paying, they get the service that we were already providing before they outsourced the call centers. The only benefit they gain is that they don't have to call the off-shore dolts.


One other thing I really love about the agents from the other countries....they all change their name to generic American names like they are going ot fool someone. "Herlo my nom ess Bill how can I herlp you?"

[Vailex Darkfury]

I work for a software consulting firm in DC. We actually helped pioneer the outsourcing to India. We still have a lot of commercial and government contracts that provide help desk support and new development.

This trend is nothing new in the global market. It happened to the textile industry, then the automotive manufacturing industry, farming and now many things IT related. The government will try its best to stop it with taxes and sanctions but theres really no stopping it, only slowing it. There are going to be plenty of IT jobs here in the US for various reasons such as jobs that require clearances ( like mine) and some sensitive commercial sectors (healthcare) which our company has been focusing on.

One thing many of you current IT programmers may consider is gearing yourself towards project managment. The U.S. may be shipping a lot of gruntwork overseas but there is still a large demand for local english speaking project managers. Of course that too will become saturated eventually.

I have complete faith in the US's ability to overcome problems like outsourcing. We tend to be adaptive and imaginitive. There may be some rough days ahead for us programmers but you just need to be flexible.

After all, how can an average programmer in the US making 50k compete with someone just as good if not better (CMM level 5) making 18k a year.

As for the generation label there might be some truth to it but being 26 I was labeled a genx now im a different generation? Maybe im somewhere in between. Either way I mowed lawns, got slapped by my old man, did farm work etc... You ultimately have the ability to change your life. Silly newspapers labeling entire generations of humans can't dictate what you are capable of doing.

[archeiron]

I work for a software consulting firm in DC. We actually helped pioneer the outsourcing to India. We still have a lot of commercial and government contracts that provide help desk support and new development.

This trend is nothing new in the global market. It happened to the textile industry, then the automotive manufacturing industry, farming and now many things IT related. The government will try its best to stop it with taxes and sanctions but theres really no stopping it, only slowing it. There are going to be plenty of IT jobs here in the US for various reasons such as jobs that require clearances ( like mine) and some sensitive commercial sectors (healthcare) which our company has been focusing on.

One thing many of you current IT programmers may consider is gearing yourself towards project managment. The U.S. may be shipping a lot of gruntwork overseas but there is still a large demand for local english speaking project managers. Of course that too will become saturated eventually.

I have complete faith in the US's ability to overcome problems like outsourcing. We tend to be adaptive and imaginitive. There may be some rough days ahead for us programmers but you just need to be flexible.

After all, how can an average programmer in the US making 50k compete with someone just as good if not better (CMM level 5) making 18k a year.

As for the generation label there might be some truth to it but being 26 I was labeled a genx now im a different generation? Maybe im somewhere in between. Either way I mowed lawns, got slapped by my old man, did farm work etc... You ultimately have the ability to change your life. Silly newspapers labeling entire generations of humans can't dictate what you are capable of doing.

I would agree with this recommendation. I started off as a developer in 1999, and was frankly dumbfounded at how much companies were willing to pay to hire someone just out of university. Moving out of development and into project management was one of the best random decisions that I have made. It is much more difficult to find development jobs now in the US than it was when I started, and I am rather thankful that I am not looking for that sort of work anymore

Project management is still maturing so people don't necessarily need to have a PMI certification to get a decent job as one; a good grasp of the basics plus an academic understanding of RUP, MSF, etc should be enough to get a confident, intelligent person going. Some employers didn't require technical backgrounds from their PMs and some of those are having it come back to bite them in the arse today, so a confident candidate with technical experience can end up winning out over a person with a non-technical background and a certification.

On the other hand, if you are a fantastic developer/designer with all of the right experience, then you would do well to go to the big software houses (Microsoft, Oracle, etc) or the big consulting organizations (IBM, Accenture, etc) and get yourself a position there where it is less likely that outsourcing will overrun the business.

[Adelrune Argenti]

I kind of fell into IT work. Starting in the early 90's, I was maintaining AS/400 systems and learned to network them over the then lovely X.25 and Frame Relay. I absorbed everything I could at the time from the other engineers I worked with. I primarily was a WAN engineer with a huge knowledge base involving modems, CSU/DSU's, routers, and the AS/400's.

Eventually, I left to work for an AS/400 reseller and a pay increase. It wasn't much but it got me the hell out of what I saw as a stagnant position and I was exposed to more technologies like Windows Servers, exchange, Novell, etc. That knowledge led to a new position with a rival company with a 50 percent salary increase. Not too bad and the money now was getting nice.

I left that 5 years ago and have been in the similar but vastly different industry of computer game development on the operational side of things. The money is still nice but definately not what I could be making in another IT area with over 13 years of real world experience in all types of networks. One decision I made about 7 years ago was to focus more on the management side more instead of the wrench turning side. It opens up more opportunities and gives a bit more variety.

The problem I run into is IT is not my passion. It was something I did to pay the bills and because I was better at it than almost anyone at the time. However, it certainly doesn't float my boat or interest me much in the after work hours. I want to transition into something else that is more creative and interests me and have been doing that but its difficult to throw away all the experience I have.

[masteen]

I kind of fell into IT work. Starting in the early 90's, I was maintaining AS/400 systems and learned to network them over the then lovely X.25 and Frame Relay. I absorbed everything I could at the time from the other engineers I worked with. I primarily was a WAN engineer with a huge knowledge base involving modems, CSU/DSU's, routers, and the AS/400's.

Eventually, I left to work for an AS/400 reseller and a pay increase. It wasn't much but it got me the hell out of what I saw as a stagnant position and I was exposed to more technologies like Windows Servers, exchange, Novell, etc. That knowledge led to a new position with a rival company with a 50 percent salary increase. Not too bad and the money now was getting nice.

I left that 5 years ago and have been in the similar but vastly different industry of computer game development on the operational side of things. The money is still nice but definately not what I could be making in another IT area with over 13 years of real world experience in all types of networks. One decision I made about 7 years ago was to focus more on the management side more instead of the wrench turning side. It opens up more opportunities and gives a bit more variety.

The problem I run into is IT is not my passion. It was something I did to pay the bills and because I was better at it than almost anyone at the time. However, it certainly doesn't float my boat or interest me much in the after work hours. I want to transition into something else that is more creative and interests me and have been doing that but its difficult to throw away all the experience I have.

It's funny, but I got out of the industry for the exact opposite reason. I love computers, networking, hacking, ect., but doing it as a job sucked the enjoyment out of my hobby. I'd go home, and not even want to look at my PCs.

[Neziroth]

I must be the opposite of most 20 somethings now days because I've actually worked for what I have now.

From some of your posts though, I don't think retail is the way to go, but oh well.

I had my first job in a grocery store at 16 (5.15/hr), and I bought my own car. My hard work there got me a job as assistant store manager at 18, and more importantly a good recommendation when I left because I was making 7.00 an hour and thought I deserved more.

My job oppurtunity ended up falling through - I wound up being a furniture delivery guy working 60 (6-7 days a week) hours a week for 6.50 an hour (I didn't want to go back to the store because it was kind of a dead end job)

I did that for one summer, got hired by coca-cola and started making 25k at 19 years old. Not too shabby in my opinion.

At 20 now, because of hard work and good recommendations from my customers I'm up for a promotion that's going to put me around 33.5k per year.

Yeah, I'm making a lot of money for my age, but the work I do isn't easy - I go from store to store along a route, order coke for them, sell in displays, and move the product from the back room to the shelf (by the hundreds and sometimes thousands of cases per store with 5+ stores per day)

Sure, I have high expectations for myself and yeah I want to make a lot of money - but I expect to have to work for it. And I have been.

There's your point of view from an up and coming 20 something (with no college, btw)

[Winnow]

Yeah, I'm making a lot of money for my age, but the work I do isn't easy - I go from store to store along a route, order coke for them, sell in displays, and move the product from the back room to the shelf (by the hundreds and sometimes thousands of cases per store with 5+ stores per day)

With all that travelling, you better have a nice portable MP3 player.

[Ransure]

I kind of fell into IT work. Starting in the early 90's, I was maintaining AS/400 systems and learned to network them over the then lovely X.25 and Frame Relay. I absorbed everything I could at the time from the other engineers I worked with. I primarily was a WAN engineer with a huge knowledge base involving modems, CSU/DSU's, routers, and the AS/400's.

Eventually, I left to work for an AS/400 reseller and a pay increase. It wasn't much but it got me the hell out of what I saw as a stagnant position and I was exposed to more technologies like Windows Servers, exchange, Novell, etc. That knowledge led to a new position with a rival company with a 50 percent salary increase. Not too bad and the money now was getting nice.

I left that 5 years ago and have been in the similar but vastly different industry of computer game development on the operational side of things. The money is still nice but definately not what I could be making in another IT area with over 13 years of real world experience in all types of networks. One decision I made about 7 years ago was to focus more on the management side more instead of the wrench turning side. It opens up more opportunities and gives a bit more variety.

The problem I run into is IT is not my passion. It was something I did to pay the bills and because I was better at it than almost anyone at the time. However, it certainly doesn't float my boat or interest me much in the after work hours. I want to transition into something else that is more creative and interests me and have been doing that but its difficult to throw away all the experience I have.

It's funny, but I got out of the industry for the exact opposite reason. I love computers, networking, hacking, ect., but doing it as a job sucked the enjoyment out of my hobby. I'd go home, and not even want to look at my PCs.

Im kinda in the same boat as Masteen, I knew IT and stuff from an early age because I always had a computer... it was a natural progression for me to get into an IT related job.

At 19 I was doing network infrastructure, design and server configuration sales for a national company to the federal gov't. No school, no training, just pick it up as I go. I got laid off from that job 2 times (yea, twice...). After that, I went through about 3 8a small businesses and 2 startups from 99-2002. It was never the same, 8a's were too slow for my taste, and the startups all bombed.

I left the IT industry then and decided to try doing something fun. I got into Home Theater design back in late 2001, thinking maybe it wasnt about the money, but about the fun in the job. Sure, in 2k2 I made like 30k down from 90k... I realized it is about having fun, but I cant live off of that.

I went to a startup company that hunted me down, and promised me $250k... and promptly went out of business 90 days later... back to Home Theater. This time around in 2k3 I made 70k for the same company, pretty good, but I wanted more, and they were relectant to offer it to me. Then a client of mine offered me a job working for a national home builder doing new home sales, I jumped ship once again for opportunity. Oh my, that is the highest paying most boaring job Ive ever done.... and when the local gov't cut back on home production because of infrastructure issues, 16 or the 18 people they hired were laid off (me included). So this is round 3 in the Home Theater industry, while I absolutely love what I do, and I think the company has finally realized that I need to get paid to stick around. I think Ill be here for a while.

I know Ill always be in some sort of highly technical job, but going from federal contracts as my first "real" job, to Home Theater as my current career has been a learning process. Now all I do is sell expensive toys

[Avestan]

I work for a software consulting firm in DC. We actually helped pioneer the outsourcing to India. We still have a lot of commercial and government contracts that provide help desk support and new development.

This trend is nothing new in the global market. It happened to the textile industry, then the automotive manufacturing industry, farming and now many things IT related. The government will try its best to stop it with taxes and sanctions but theres really no stopping it, only slowing it. There are going to be plenty of IT jobs here in the US for various reasons such as jobs that require clearances ( like mine) and some sensitive commercial sectors (healthcare) which our company has been focusing on.

One thing many of you current IT programmers may consider is gearing yourself towards project managment. The U.S. may be shipping a lot of gruntwork overseas but there is still a large demand for local english speaking project managers. Of course that too will become saturated eventually.

I have complete faith in the US's ability to overcome problems like outsourcing. We tend to be adaptive and imaginitive. There may be some rough days ahead for us programmers but you just need to be flexible.

After all, how can an average programmer in the US making 50k compete with someone just as good if not better (CMM level 5) making 18k a year.

As for the generation label there might be some truth to it but being 26 I was labeled a genx now im a different generation? Maybe im somewhere in between. Either way I mowed lawns, got slapped by my old man, did farm work etc... You ultimately have the ability to change your life. Silly newspapers labeling entire generations of humans can't dictate what you are capable of doing.

Good post. For those who want some great reading on this subject, I highly recommend "The World is Flat" by Thomas Friedman.

Outsoursing is not as bad for our economy as most people believe it is, but it will force us to be innovators and not followers. That is what we should want to be anyway.

[Bubba Grizz]

Some of you guys are tossing around numbers that I could only dream of attaining. I can't imagine making that kind of money. Then I realize that it all has to do with the location in which you are working as well. Folks in the larger cities like NY or LA would consider a job making 35k near poverty level where as in the midwest that is a nice comfortable wage. It's all in the perspective I guess.

[Psyloche]

Some of you guys are tossing around numbers that I could only dream of attaining. I can't imagine making that kind of money. Then I realize that it all has to do with the location in which you are working as well. Folks in the larger cities like NY or LA would consider a job making 35k near poverty level where as in the midwest that is a nice comfortable wage. It's all in the perspective I guess.

Making about 39k and I don't think its near enough here in DC. Fucking rent or buying property takes like an entire paycheck (paid every 2 weeks). When I finally find a place that I want I'll probably be eating mayonaise sandwiches.

[Drasta]

yea a bottle of water costs like 2 bucks in DC ... its crazy ... that why i avoid going to DC =-) that and the traffic sucks!

[Vaemas]

I have to agree with Sheryl...my siblings are being raised totally different that I was. I didn't earn 100% of everything I have...but damn near close.

Got my first job working for Coca-Cola in '95 at the age of 17...started in the mail room making 17k. Busted my ass in there for 2.5 years, made it up to 23k. Worked to the top of the non-management positions and realized hey, there's no way anyone's going to put a 20 year old kid without a college degree into a management position.

So I knew some people, applied for an open position in the staffing group doing logistics work. Busted more ass for another year and a half working there made it to 30kish. Left in 1999 to go to work for the company I work for now. Did a few college courses in between.

So I'm 21 at the time, making 40k a year doing software training. Travelling all over the U.S. and spending a lot of time in Chicago. Dotcom boom happens, company moves me to Chicago in 2000 and I'm making 61k a year with a company-paid 5k a year "technology expense account." Had a bad manager over me who ended up jumping ship after we spent 50k on some overseas training for him...he was supposed to be my mentor in the Chicago office.

So dot com bust happens, I'm left holding the bag and I get transferred back to Atlanta making 40k a year. Granted, I was thankful for that since I was still in my early 20s.

Went back to school full-time last year while still working almost full time (yeah, 35 hours a week...) and I'm making about 35k a year now. I'm 27. I'm 3 years from my BBA in Accounting and my CPA. I'm getting married. I'm closing on a house in 2 weeks. My car is a 1993 Honda Accord with 236,000 miles on it, but it's paid for. I'm in good health and I have an IRA with some money in it.

Yeah, I want more. But I'm also reminded daily that I've been pretty blessed. I've busted my ass to get where I am today and I've had a lot of good fortune to be in the right place at the right time and not overextend myself financially. I may not have walked away with a lot of material things from my parents, but they damn sure taught me a lot.

What parents are not teaching kids these days is responsiblity. Everything is always someone else's fault. The world owes them just because they were born. Guess what junior. Life's a cold, hard bitch. And if mommy and daddy don't teach 'em how to be responsible in their little things growing up, it's going to come back and kick 'em swift in the ass when they get to be adults. Parent's can't bail the kids out forever.

I think one of the most valuable lessons my parents taught me was responsibility. I'm not perfect at it. God knows no one ever is. But they let me fall flat on my face when I was 16 and I've never forgotten the lesson. It only stung a little. But let me tell you, if they'd bailed me out and waited until I was 27, I'd probably be in a whole world of hurt.

[Diae Soulmender]

Sorry about my grammar and spelling, but I did say I had no education :)

[Marbus]

Diae, that post kicks some serious ass

What is funny is that I told my old Director and VP this EXACT same thing back in 99" when we were hiring a lot of brilliant kids barley out of HS. I told them that even those that went to college were going to be this way and we better get ready for it, they took that advice and are still doing well. The person I got put under and I fought all the time about shit just like this and my people. At the time I was on the fast track to Executive Mgt and I turned down a mid-upper level position just because I wouldn't work for this piece of shit... within a year all my staff was gone and so was I. The guy that took the Mgt position eventually got fired for not lying for the Director and hung himself... after 4 years the Director was finally demoted but the guy they brought in isn't much better. The department has one of the highest turnover rates I have ever seen and they probably pay the best in the entire state.

I've been at my present company for 5 years now and still haven't gotten a Leadership position but truly it's not the most important thing anymore. I've got 2 great kids, my wife and I are happy, I make an excellent salary for my location and even though I usually work about 60 hours a week... it's just not that bad because I have a boss that is willing to do the same. Hopefully in the next few years, if I can play my cards right, I'll get a group of technical people to manage again, being a Psych major and spending years as a counselor I truly miss that but... again it's not that important.

The key to the story is that yes there are a lot of people that expect something for nothing but it's not just limited to 20 somethings, it can be anyone. When you find one, nothing IMHO is worth working for them, even if it puts your career on hold for a few years, you will be much happier

Marb

[Siji]

Perhaps employees would have more loyalty if companies had more loyalty. It's a two way street. I've been fortunate enough to miss layoffs in the last 10 years where I work, but I've seen people 6 months from retirement get laid off. And then their job renamed and some fuckwad get hired or transferred into it. I've also seen over the last 10 years that it's simply not realistic to think you're going to ever retire from a single company. And even if you did, your retirement benefits will get sucked dry over the years to where you'll likely have to go back to work anyway. It used to be that working for one of the 'big companies' meant you had a job for life. Now I've seen my 'big company' split into 3 different companies. In 10 years. I've seen our stock price go from $150 a share and splitting, to $1.25 a share.

Companies don't give a fuck about their employees anymore. Why would said employees give a fuck about the company? Answer? They don't.

[Noysyrump]

im reading this at work....