5 yr old arrested

[nobody]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/ ... 0601.shtml

video camera, which was rolling March 14 as part of a teacher's classroom self-improvement exercise, captured images of the girl tearing papers off a bulletin board, climbing on a table and punching an assistant principal before police were called to Fairmount Park Elementary School.

Then it shows the child appearing to calm down before three officers approach, pin her arms behind her back and put on handcuffs as she screamed, "No!"

Largo, Fla., lawyer John Trevena, who provided the tape to the media after obtaining it from police, says the officers went too far.

i feel bad not commenting but i have to get back to calss.

[Aabidano]

Old news. This is just the bottom feeding laywer looking for some dough.

[nobody]

i posted it b/c a bunch of my friends and i who are all conservative (i live in utah) all have different opinions on it. i saw the video and don't blame the principal at all.

[Sabek]

"To get the reform, you have to make them pay, because if you don't make them pay, they're never going to reform themselves. If they don't have to pony up, there never will be any change."

This quote alone shows the lawyer is just trying to make money like a freaking leech.

[Hesten]

I actually got the solution to the US major problem with ridiculous lawsuits.
500000$ fine to the LAWYER if the case get dismissed, or they loose the case.
That should hopefully stop lawyers from ambulance chasing and trying to cash in on everything they can.

[Aabidano]

People hire the lawyers, without customers they can't do a whole lot...

[Voronwë]

he's probably a greaseball lawyer, but that quote is 100% accurate.

unless a business or government agency gets hit "in the pocketbook", they don't care.

That's reality.

[Lohrno]

I guess I don't blame the principal either.

Our teachers have become so powerless to control their students in fear of having lawsuits slapped on them that they have to result to local law enforcement to help. Had the VP restrained her or put her back in her seat and told her to shut up she could have been sued. If they tried to put her in detention that girl would have started fighting, and if they tried to restrain her they could have been sued. She was violent, and if they tried anything they would have been sued. Really I mean they could put her in another room or something but she would have just hit them and run away. And if they dragged her back they would have been sued.

I mean seriously I can't think of anything else they could have done that wouldn't have gotten them sued these days. Our teachers would have dragged us into detention or something.

If a kid is persistently violent, what can they do?

[Wulfran]

I watched the video and listened to what the lawyer had to say and agree that in cases of legitimate reforms, he (and Voro) are correct. I don't see this as a legitimate case by any stretch of the imagination. The lawyer (in the CBS blurb) tried to pass this off as a "personality clash" between the girl, her mother and the vice principal. So wtf? Someone who doesn't know how to raise and refuses to discipline their brat, disagrees with a trained professional and the school board is supposed to change the world for them?

That there is blame be aportioned to the police in this case is also ridiculous: they didn't beat her or anything, they restrained her in about as non-forceful way as I have ever seen in any situation. The whole case is a farce and should be subject ot some type of sanction against a lawyer willing to tie court time with this.

[Aabidano]

As I said the the last thread where we discussed this, I'd bet the school administration did exactly what the county rules called for, as did the police.

[Nick]

5 years old is a fucking baby for christs sake.

No 5 year old however badly fucking behaved (short of burning the school down) should be treated like a criminal.

[Lohrno]

5 years old is a fucking baby for christs sake.

No 5 year old however badly fucking behaved (short of burning the school down) should be treated like a criminal.

I agree. I just don't blame the school for what they did.

I think it's our system that left them without many other options as they would likely be sued for dragging the kid into a room for a 'time out.' (What you think if she's that violent she's gonna just come along nicely?) Just about any conceivable action they could have taken would probably be considered 'abuse.'

I think THAT is the root of this problem. That and perhaps the parents but I think some of that may be genetic, so I'll give them a tiny benefit of the doubt.

[Aabidano]

But what are the alternatives that aren't going to get you fired by the administration and possibly sued by the parents?

You can't let her hurt herself, her classmates, the staff or destroy property just because she isn't getting her way.

[Lohrno]

But what are the alternatives that aren't going to get you fired by the administration and possibly sued by the parents?

You can't let her hurt herself, her classmates, the staff or destroy property just because she isn't getting her way.

That's pretty much my point. Something needs to change about that...We shouldn't be at the point where there are no alternatives to calling the police. Unless she was brandishing a deadly weapon, we shoudn't be at the point where we need to call the police...

[Voronwë]

not knowing much about what county this took place in or their social services, I imagine there are various civil agencies that this falls under their jurisdiction, that could handle this a bit more appropriately than 3 police officers with guns.

this kid is also not going to fear the police when she is older if you instantly are going to the most stern response possible at age 5.

[Lohrno]

An attorney says he plans legal action against St. Petersburg (Fla.) police officers who handcuffed an unruly 5-year-old girl after she acted up in her kindergarten class.

So it was Russia.

[Aabidano]

this kid is also not going to fear the police when she is older if you instantly are going to the most stern response possible at age 5.

Given the apparent parenting skills involved and that a lawsuit exists, I'd guess mommy will stick up for her no matter what she does.

Largo is just across the bay, fairly large suburban\commercial area. I don't know who else they'd have called. Maybe animal control with a "grab stick" or whatever that pole with a loop at the end is called.

[noel]

Follow-up:
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/25/North ... er_i.shtml

[Bubba Grizz]

I'd have knocked the kid across the room. Damn lil upstart. I think I could take her. It'd be close.

[Marbus]

As I said the first time this was posted...

SHE IS FUCKING FIVE... FIVE YEARS OLD.

The principle needs the shit kicked out of him for being not only and asshole but an idiot who obviously dosen't know his ass from a hole in the ground when in comes to Child development.

Was the little girl freaking out? misbehaving? being violent? it sure sounds like it but lets go back to my main point... SHE WAS FUCKING FIVE!

You can restrain/hold a child, even who is violent or has a weapon VERY easily until they calm down or until their parents get there. I worked in a child psych unit for years and a 5 year old, no matter HOW out of control - and I have seen probably the worst cases imaginable, should have the freakin' police called on them... criminal. Hell I almost want to fly to FL and beat the shit out of this guy... and the teacher.

You guys know me, I usually don't swear too much and I'm genearlly non-violent but when it come to dipshits fuckin' up a childs life because they are stupid? They diserve a good ass kickin' and loss of job...

Let me repeat one more time... SHE WAS FUCKING FIVE YEARS OLD! Should she has her ass lit up? you betcha (unless violence at home was where she learned it) but not taken away in a cop car.

Disgusted...

Marb

[Lynks]

You can restrain/hold a child, even who is violent or has a weapon VERY easily until they calm down or until their parents get there.

Yes, if you want to get sued. Teachers have ZERO rights when it comes to students. A teacher my GF works with got suspended for a week for physically bringing the student out of the classroom (by the arm) because he was pretty much doing what this 5 year old was doing.

Since you are the expert, what should they have done, let her go rampant until she tires herself out?

[noel]

Marb, I don't think you are being very empathetic to the position of the educators. First of all, a lawsuit from a parent can destroy their career. Second, they were (apparently) doing the behavioral tactics they were taught to do. Clearly, these are tactics that do not work in all cases.

I agree there's no real issue to restrain a 5 year old. That said, I'm not sure it would be worth it to me to do so if, god forbid there were an errant mark on the child, and their parents sued me and/or the school district.

In this case, especially given the follow up information, it's clear that the mother does not have a very good character in that she's more concerned with money and being on TV than correcting what I can only assume was a perceived faulty educational environment.

The lawsuit has been dropped. Guess the school and/or police were right? Or maybe mom just got paid and doesn't care about her daughter anymore.

[*~*stragi*~*]

As I said the first time this was posted...

SHE IS FUCKING FIVE... FIVE YEARS OLD.

The principle needs the shit kicked out of him for being not only and asshole but an idiot who obviously dosen't know his ass from a hole in the ground when in comes to Child development.

Was the little girl freaking out? misbehaving? being violent? it sure sounds like it but lets go back to my main point... SHE WAS FUCKING FIVE!

You can restrain/hold a child, even who is violent or has a weapon VERY easily until they calm down or until their parents get there. I worked in a child psych unit for years and a 5 year old, no matter HOW out of control - and I have seen probably the worst cases imaginable, should have the freakin' police called on them... criminal. Hell I almost want to fly to FL and beat the shit out of this guy... and the teacher.

You guys know me, I usually don't swear too much and I'm genearlly non-violent but when it come to dipshits fuckin' up a childs life because they are stupid? They diserve a good ass kickin' and loss of job...

Let me repeat one more time... SHE WAS FUCKING FIVE YEARS OLD! Should she has her ass lit up? you betcha (unless violence at home was where she learned it) but not taken away in a cop car.

Disgusted...

Marb

and then they get sued on the spot.

[Mr Bacon]

FFS, unless this kid was on acid and has a thing for self mutilation, any grown man or woman could put her in a room (with no objects) to chill out.

[noel]

But then they'd get sued... for neglect (i.e. not supervising the child :O)

[Lynks]

And how do you put them in a room without touching them.

"Timmy, we need to lock you into this room, could you please step in?"


Edit: And what Noel said too.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

As I said the first time this was posted...

SHE IS FUCKING FIVE... FIVE YEARS OLD.

The principle needs the shit kicked out of him for being not only and asshole but an idiot who obviously dosen't know his ass from a hole in the ground when in comes to Child development.

Was the little girl freaking out? misbehaving? being violent? it sure sounds like it but lets go back to my main point... SHE WAS FUCKING FIVE!

You can restrain/hold a child, even who is violent or has a weapon VERY easily until they calm down or until their parents get there. I worked in a child psych unit for years and a 5 year old, no matter HOW out of control - and I have seen probably the worst cases imaginable, should have the freakin' police called on them... criminal. Hell I almost want to fly to FL and beat the shit out of this guy... and the teacher.

You guys know me, I usually don't swear too much and I'm genearlly non-violent but when it come to dipshits fuckin' up a childs life because they are stupid? They diserve a good ass kickin' and loss of job...

Let me repeat one more time... SHE WAS FUCKING FIVE YEARS OLD! Should she has her ass lit up? you betcha (unless violence at home was where she learned it) but not taken away in a cop car.

Disgusted...

Marb

and then they get sued on the spot.

Exactly. Save your frustration for the ACLU and the lawyers and the media who allow this to come to fruition. A principle or teacher should be allowed to restrain this little bitch, b ut then they would lose their reputation and their job and be scorned on national TV and print.

A man sees a car accident and rushes over to try and help...not any more. He isn't going to risk losing everything he has worked because he might get sued for trying to help someone.

Marb. I keep harping and going apeshit on these kinds of things because when you sit back and look at the bigger picture of what happens when these things are allowed to happen, you would see how aggrivating it is when people look at things so selfishly and short sighted. Get made and outraged at these little things...the political correctness, the lawsuits, etc. Then you won't see little 5 year olds getting arrested.

[Voronwë]

well the big picture is one case may be an indication of a larger problem, or it may be an indication that on one occassion in one particular strange circumstance, the county chose to handle the case in a way that shocked some people.

supposedly, this girl's mother/parents had provided the school with WRITTEN instruction not to physically restrain her child in any way as well (my source is word of mouth on that). So I think that gives you broader perspective perhaps on the reason the school made its decision to go this route.

on the one hand, i can see an educator being like "i'm not losing my job over this demon child". but the flipside is, you are an educator of little children. teaching them to govern their behavior is part of your job.

regardless, my thoughts are that there has to be some intermediate level of response available to the school. If there isn't then this illustrates that the county needs more infrastructure in that area.

[Kargyle]

A man sees a car accident and rushes over to try and help...not any more. He isn't going to risk losing everything he has worked because he might get sued for trying to help someone.

Actaully we have these things called Good Samaritan Laws which specifically protect people rendering assistance in emergency situations from law suit.

[Lohrno]

Exactly. Save your frustration for the ACLU and the lawyers and the media who allow this to come to fruition. A principle or teacher should be allowed to restrain this little bitch, b ut then they would lose their reputation and their job and be scorned on national TV and print.

You know I kind of agree. Scary as that is.

I'm not by any means anti-ACLU but in cases like these they aren't usually objective. They champion many great causes but in cases like this they are usually on the wrong side. It's also the lawyers and the people who are suit happy.

But if there are extremes to be gone to I guess it would be better to err on this side than the other. (IE: Teachers beating the bejeezus out of kids because they don't listen.) With the small budgets in schools, I would imagine that they aren't getting top of the line motvated teachers, and this could be a problem if left unchecked...

We need a balance, and I'm sorry but I have no real suggestion of a way to fix it. I have the feeling that American society is headed for a collapse. Not just because of this, but many many other things that are without remedy but still major problems.

[noel]

but the flipside is, you are an educator of little children. teaching them to govern their behavior is part of your job.

Is it really? Have things changed so much since when I was five? When I was five, you were expected to behave in school, and to know how to behave in school, not to be taught that there. You were expected to follow a set of rules, and GOD FORBID a teacher call your parents to say anything other than, 'Noel is doing a great job with his fingerpainting!' (or whatever).

Voronwë, I believe you have children. Do you believe it's the responsibility of your child's teachers to A) teach them good behavior, or to B) reinforce the good behavior/values you've already taught your children?

I'm guessing that at some point, as a parent, you'll have to sign a contract of good behavior that allows for your child to be 'handled' should they become disruptive, and holds you responsible for your childs actions in the public school environment. Assuming you could ever pass something like that. God forbid people in 2005 be responsible for anything.

[Voronwë]

quick answer, it is the parent's responsibility to set the overall disciplinary direction. However, school is a very different environment than home. There is more competition for toys, there are kids who may provoke your kid. So yeah, part of an educators job is to help teach kids to act properly. They are in their presence often longer on weekdays than the parent is.

yes there are many things a 5 year old should know, like not to hit. But sometimes they do it anyway, because kids do that kind of stuff.

so, no Noel i'm not saying it falls on the educators shoulders, but it is part of it. I'm sure you can think of many examples from your own experience of when a teacher repremanded a classmate of yours for talking in class, for goofing off in the hall - whatever, and that was as old as high school.

little kids still have a lot of learning to do about how to act. But my gut feeling is this little girl's parent(s) sucks.

[Sionistic]

Any parent hoping that a teacher will teach their children correct behavior is a parent begging for trouble. Who knows what the teacher will tell them, or how the kid understands it?

[noel]

so, no Noel i'm not saying it falls on the educators shoulders, but it is part of it. I'm sure you can think of many examples from your own experience of when a teacher repremanded a classmate of yours for talking in class, for goofing off in the hall - whatever, and that was as old as high school.

little kids still have a lot of learning to do about how to act. But my gut feeling is this little girl's parent(s) sucks.

Sorry, I didn't mean to really single you out, I was mostly asking a question.

To respond to your point, I think the difference might be (since I'm not in public school today to make the comparison) when I was in at least grade school and Jr. High, if a teacher asked someone not to talk in class or pass notes or whatever, there was a genuine fear or what would happen. Hell, hitting anyone has been an automatic trip to the vice principal's office and a trip home for at least a day of suspension for as long as I can remember.

I agree that the parent(s) appear to suck.

[Voronwë]

i have no problem with being singled out (or not!), hehe.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

A man sees a car accident and rushes over to try and help...not any more. He isn't going to risk losing everything he has worked because he might get sued for trying to help someone.

Actaully we have these things called Good Samaritan Laws which specifically protect people rendering assistance in emergency situations from law suit.

Actually only a handful of states have it and if you really read them, they often only cover public officials.

http://www.aia.org/print_template.cfm?p ... ster_GSleg

(That link wants to print, just drag down the print window and read)

Good Samaritan Legislation


"Good Samaritan" legislation protects architects who voluntarily assist with disaster response from liability. Please check the specific inclusions and exclusions to determine how you will be protected.

The states with Good Samaritan laws as of August 2002 are: California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia, and Washington.

[noel]

i have no problem with being singled out (or not!), hehe.

[Lynks]

I found this one and its part of 36 states.

http://www.wsffa.org/goodsam.htm

Quick summary: It says anybody, not just public officials, are safe. Another site said all states have some kind of Good Samaritan act.

[Lohrno]

Any parent hoping that a teacher will teach their children correct behavior is a parent begging for trouble. Who knows what the teacher will tell them, or how the kid understands it?

True.

But the way I see it is this: If the parents can't or won't for whatever reason teach the kid to be a civilized member of society, the school has to, or the kid will not be. I'm not trying to take responsibility off of the parents here, but it's better if the child in question is taught by the school than not at all.

[Skogen]

Any parent hoping that a teacher will teach their children correct behavior is a parent begging for trouble. Who knows what the teacher will tell them, or how the kid understands it?

True.

But the way I see it is this: If the parents can't or won't for whatever reason teach the kid to be a civilized member of society, the school has to, or the kid will not be. I'm not trying to take responsibility off of the parents here, but it's better if the child in question is taught by the school than not at all.

RARHID!!!

[Lynks]

Thats all good if its just one kid, but teachers need to look after 10-30 kids in a day. Kinda hard to teach them how to behave on top of the curriculum. Only thing they can do is enforce it and that gets harder when idiots like this sue the school.

[noel]

Any parent hoping that a teacher will teach their children correct behavior is a parent begging for trouble. Who knows what the teacher will tell them, or how the kid understands it?

True.

But the way I see it is this: If the parents can't or won't for whatever reason teach the kid to be a civilized member of society, the school has to, or the kid will not be. I'm not trying to take responsibility off of the parents here, but it's better if the child in question is taught by the school than not at all.

You're absolutely right. BUT, it is NOT the responsibility of a public school to do that. They're not designed to do that. There are other institutions that can do that, but not a regular public school.

[Lohrno]

You're absolutely right. BUT, it is NOT the responsibility of a public school to do that. They're not designed to do that. There are other institutions that can do that, but not a regular public school.

I think it depends to what degree you're talking about. In the case of this kid, yes probably other institutions, or actions are needed. In the case of mild behavioral adjustment, I think the schools have to do that to simply function. If you have kids getting in a couple fights, that's hardly reason to have to send them off to reform school. Disciplinary action can be taken to correct this, and if it gets much worse, then maybe some other actions are needed. This in and of itself is teaching proper behavior if it works.

[noel]

You're absolutely right. BUT, it is NOT the responsibility of a public school to do that. They're not designed to do that. There are other institutions that can do that, but not a regular public school.

I think it depends to what degree you're talking about. In the case of this kid, yes probably other institutions, or actions are needed. In the case of mild behavioral adjustment, I think the schools have to do that to simply function. If you have kids getting in a couple fights, that's hardly reason to have to send them off to reform school. Disciplinary action can be taken to correct this, and if it gets much worse, then maybe some other actions are needed. This in and of itself is teaching proper behavior if it works.

You're right, but lets be clear. All of the examples you mentioned don't make the news at all, ever. This case made the news because it was A) a 5-year old B) videotaped C) she was handcuffed.

I thought it was pretty clear that we were talking about the kids who didn't respond to normal educational/behavioral stimuli.

[Sabek]

From watching the video it seemed that there were other issues with the girl. She was playing with the thermostat, then ripping things off the wall and then getting violent when touched. Almost looked like the pictures/videos I have seen of autistic(sp?) kids.

[Lohrno]

I thought it was pretty clear that we were talking about the kids who didn't respond to normal educational/behavioral stimuli.

Okay. You were talking quite generally so I was a little confused as to this. Yes, normal schools do not have the resources to deal with these problems (hell they don't even have the resources for basic function in a decent and clean way in most cases).

I'm also betting that they have a financial stake in keeping her there. Maybe they get some money for special needs kids...

[noel]

Generally they only get money for special needs kids if they have facilities and staff for special needs. When I was in grade-school... about 25 years ago ><, special needs meant physically or mentally impaired.

[masteen]

The fastest growing program down here is one for "SED" or Severe Emotional Disability kids. The common element all these kids share is borderline criminally negligent parents.

The more I see of our schools, the more I am convinced that reproductive freedom is the worst fucking thing in the world.

[Marbus]

You're right Noel, I'm not giving a lot of sympathy to the teachers because I have seen tooooo many of them really not give a crap or try. As both my parents were educators and pretty much all their friends, I watched from a first hand view how our educational system and it's teachers changed over the years...

I also know that it's possible, because I did it numerous time, to restrain a child without leaving a mark. If you DO leave a mark, you did something wrong. The goal is to give the child a calm physical restraint to help them calm down when they can't do it themselves, it's NOT a punishment.

However the fact, if true, that the parent sent a note saying no restraining when she knew her child had sever behavior problems brings a lot into questions. Even so I would NEVER condone calling the cops on a 5 year old unless there was a problem with a weapon (knife, gun etc...) and then only if the parents were called as well. That mother, no matter how piss poor of a mother she may be, should have been there when the cops arrived IMHO.

Also, once again, agree with Vor about the discipline stuff. For example, Joesph behaves VERY well at home but recently has started hitting again. Something I got him out of when he went through that stage. However 2 of the boys at his daycare hit and aren't being disciplined so now he thinks it's ok... well he thought that it was ok. In only a few days we almost have it stopped again with only 1 spanking when he actually hit his little brother with a lightsaber. I believe spanking only as a last resort but necessary when my child or others could be in jeapoardy because of his actions. The point being that he isn't really doing it at home but from what his teach said, they are all still doing it at daycare without out much recourse...

Marb

[miir]

and then only if the parents were called as well. That mother, no matter how piss poor of a mother she may be, should have been there when the cops arrived IMHO.

The mother was called in this case.
She was too busy to come to the school.