Get the bonfire ready!

What do you think about the world?
Post Reply
User avatar
Fash
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4147
Joined: July 10, 2002, 2:26 am
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: sylblaydis
Location: A Secure Location

Get the bonfire ready!

Post by Fash »

Top Cardinal Blasts Work of Fiction as Cheap Lies

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/sto ... TR&coview=
ROME (Reuters) - A top Catholic cardinal has blasted "The Da Vinci Code" as a "gross and absurd" distortion of history and said Catholic bookstores should take the bestseller off their shelves because it is full of "cheap lies."

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, in an interview with the Milan newspaper Il Giornale, became the highest ranking Italian Churchman to speak out against the book, an international blockbuster that has sold millions of copies.

"(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations," Bertone, the archbishop of the northern Italian city of Genoa and a close friend of Pope John Paul told the paper in its Monday edition.

"This seems like a throwback to the old anti-clerical pamphlets of the 1800s," he said.

The central claim of the book, written by American Dan Brown, is that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children. The Bible says Jesus never married, was crucified and rose from the dead.

Bertone's comments were significant because until the Pope named him archbishop of Genoa in 2003 he was for years the number two man at the Vatican's most powerful department - the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said. "I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."

HOLY GRAIL

A central storyline of the book is that the Holy Grail is not the cup which Christ is said to have used at the Last Supper but really the bloodline descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Bertone calls this idea "a perversion."

Bertone is so incensed about the novel that he will be the key speaker at a roundtable in Genoa Wednesday night attempting to dismantle the book, which also accuses the Church of covering up the female role in Christianity.

"I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said.

"I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said.

He said it was "sad" that even Catholic bookstores were selling The Da Vinci Code "for purely economic reasons."

One bookstore selling "The Da Vinci Code" is the one in the Gemelli Hospital, a Catholic institution where the Pope spent a total of 28 days in two stints in February and March.

In the interview, Bertone firmly rejected the book's claim that the feminine role in Christianity had been suppressed.

"This is one of the most vulgar of inventions. The feminine element is present in all the Gospels," Bertone said.

Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei, the conservative Church organization that the book depicts as a ruthless, Machiavellian group that resorts even to murder in its attempt to keep the Church's secrets hidden.

The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks.
Fash

--
Naivety is dangerous.
User avatar
Xzion
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2567
Joined: September 22, 2002, 7:36 pm

Post by Xzion »

i love how a catholic priest is talking about "fairy tales"...

whats funny is how these people get so upset when soemone challenges there "faith"...if they truly had "faith", someone expressing an opposing idea wouldnt be able to upset them

and about the feminine oppression, i would have loved to hear his response to "why cant women be priests?"
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
-zeltharath tauren shaman on wildhammer
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Post by Aabidano »

Better version:
ME (Reooters) - A tup Cethuleec cerdeenel hes blested "Zee Da Feenci Cude-a" es a "gruss und ebsoord" deesturshun ooff heestury und seeed Cethuleec buukstures shuoold teke-a zee bestseller ooffff zeeur shelfes becoose-a it is fooll ooff "cheep leees."

Cerdeenel Terceesiu Bertune-a, in un interfeeoo veet zee Meelun noospeper Il Geeurnele-a, beceme-a zee heeghest runkeeng Iteleeun Choorchmun tu speek oooot egeeenst zee buuk, un interneshunel bluckbooster thet hes suld meelliuns ooff cupeees.

"(It) eeems tu deescredit zee Choorch und its heestury thruoogh gruss und ebsoord
muneepooleshuns," Bertune-a, zee erchbeeshup ooff zee nurzeern Iteleeun ceety ooff Genua und a cluse-a freeend ooff Pupe-a Juhn Pool tuld zee peper in its Mundey ideeshun.

"Thees seems leeke-a a throobeck tu zee oold untee-clereecel pemphlets ooff zee 1800s," he-a seeed.

Zee centrel cleeem ooff zee buuk, vreettee by Emereecun Dun Broon, is thet Jesoos
merreeed Mery Megdelene-a und hed cheeldree. Zee Beeble-a seys Jesoos nefer merreeed, ves crooceeffied und ruse-a frum zee deed.

Bertune's cumments vere-a seegnifficunt becoose-a unteel zee Pupe-a nemed heem
erchbeeshup ooff Genua in 2003 he-a ves fur yeers zee noomber tvu mun et zee
Feteecun's must pooerffool depertment - zee Cungregeshun fur zee Ductreene-a ooff zee Feeet.

"Yuoo cun feend thet buuk iferyvhere-a und zee reesk is thet muny peuple-a vhu reed
it beleeefe-a thet thuse-a feury teles ere-a reel," he-a seeed. "I theenk I hefe-a zee
respunseebility tu cleer theengs up tu unmesk zee cheep leees cunteeened in buuks
leeke-a thet."

HOLY GREIL

A centrel sturyleene-a ooff zee buuk is thet zee Huly Greeel is nut zee coop vheech
Chreest is seeed tu hefe-a used et zee Lest Soopper boot reelly zee bluudleene-adescended frum Jesoos und Mery Megdelene-a. Bertune-a cells thees idea "a perferseeun."

Bertune-a is su incensed ebuoot zee nufel thet he-a veell be-a zee key speeker et a
ruoondteble-a in Genua Vednesdey neeght ettempteeng tu deesmuntle-a zee buuk, vheech elsu eccooses zee Choorch ooff cufereeng up zee femele-a rule-a in Chreestiunity.

"I veell try tu cleer theengs up und help furm cunsceeences," zee cerdeenel seeed.

"I theenk thet vhee feced veet effffurmeshuns thet ere-a su shemeffool und unffuoonded,
reeders vhu hefe-a ifee a meenimoom ooff beseec (Chreestiun) furmeshun shuoold reect," he-a seeed.

He-a seeed it ves "sed" thet ifee Cethuleec buukstures vere-a selleeng Zee Da Feenci
Cude-a "fur poorely icunumeec reesuns."

Oone-a buuksture-a selleeng "Zee Da Feenci Cude-a" is zee oone-a in zee Gemellee Huspeetel, a Cethuleec insteetooshun vhere-a zee Pupe-a spent a tutel ooff 28 deys in tvu steents in Febrooery und Merch.

In zee interfeeoo, Bertune-a furmly rejected zee buuk's cleeem thet zee femeenine-a
rule-a in Chreestiunity hed beee sooppressed.

"Thees is oone-a ooff zee must foolger ooff infenshuns. Zee femeenine-a ilement is present in ell zee Guspels," Bertune-a seeed.

Bertune-a elsu strungly deffended Oopoos Deee, zee cunserfeteefe-a Choorch oorguneezeshun thet zee buuk depeects es a roothless, Mecheeefelliun gruoop thet resurts ifee tu moorder in its ettempt tu keep zee Choorch's secrets heeddee.

Zee nufel is gueeng tu reech un ifee veeder oodeeence-a next yeer veet zee releese-a
ooff a feelm besed oon zee buuk stereeng Tum Hunks.

Bork, bork, bork.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
Homercles
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 628
Joined: July 8, 2002, 3:52 pm

Post by Homercles »

Did anyone tell this Cardinal that The DaVinci Code is a work of fiction?
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Homercles wrote:Did anyone tell this Cardinal that The DaVinci Code is a work of fiction?
and its been out for like 5 years?
User avatar
Animalor
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5902
Joined: July 8, 2002, 12:03 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Anirask
PSN ID: Anirask
Location: Canada

Post by Animalor »

The Cardinal better not read Angels and Demons...
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

or the Divine Comedy
User avatar
Tenuvil
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1841
Joined: July 11, 2002, 6:13 pm

Post by Tenuvil »

Image

Ximinez : Ha! Now, old woman! You are accused of heresy on three counts. Heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action. ...Four counts. Do you confess?

Old Lady : I don't understand what I'm accused of.

Ximinez : Ha! Then we shall MAKE you understand! Biggles! Fetch... ...THE CUSHIONS!The Soft Cushions!!

(JARRING CHORD. Biggles holds out two ordinary modern household cushions)

Biggles : Here we are, lord.

Ximinez : Now, old lady -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the ungodly -- two last chances. And you shall be free -- three last chances. You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.

Old Lady : I don't know what you're talking about.

Ximinez : Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions!

(Biggles carries out this rather pathetic torture)

Ximinez : (really into it) Confess! Confess! Confess!

Biggles : It doesn't seem to be hurting her, lord.

Ximinez : Have you got all the stuffing up one end?

Biggles : Yes, lord.

Ximinez : (angrily hurling away the cushions) Hmf. She's made of harder stuff. Cardinal Fang. Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!

(JARRING CHORD - Zoom into Fang's horrified face)

Fang : (terrified) The...Comfy Chair?

Ximinez : Yes.

(Fang and Biggles push in a comfy chair - a really plush one.)

Ximinez : So! You think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her... in the Comfy Chair!

(They roughly push her into the Comfy Chair. She settles in and smiles. It is a very comfy chair.)

Ximinez : (with a cruel leer) Now -- you will stay in the Comfy Chair until lunchtime, with only a cup of coffee at eleven!
*~*stragi*~*
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3876
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: kimj0ngil
Location: Ahwatukee, Arizona
Contact:

Post by *~*stragi*~* »

You're signature is funny Tenuvil, BLS is playing with a bunch of whining fag emoxcore bands at Ozzfest this year :p

Sad times for music indeed :(
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

that is probably the stupidest quote i've ever read. ever.

wish i could play like him though. as lame as that ozzy album was, the fat ass sound he got on stuff like "crazy babies" was nice.
User avatar
Nick
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5711
Joined: July 4, 2002, 3:45 pm

Post by Nick »

Smashing Pumpkins are quality, lyrically anyway, whatever the fuck Zakk Wylde says.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

as much of a douchebag as Billy Corrigan may or may not be, he is a lot better of a guitar player than Zack Wylde too. In fact it isnt even close.


edit. i checked out this guy's band's website. the poll on the main page has 161 votes. that's not too much more than VV polls get :p
User avatar
Drinsic Darkwood
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1279
Joined: March 27, 2003, 10:03 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Murfreesboro, TN

Post by Drinsic Darkwood »

Pumpkins are fucking awesome =/ I like Pearl Jam, too.
Do unto others what has been done to you.
User avatar
Niffoni
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1318
Joined: February 18, 2003, 12:53 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Post by Niffoni »

I strongly support the burning of books, american flags, and SUV owners.
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all. - Douglas Adams
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

Billy Corrigan was the lead guitar for the Pumpkins? News to me...
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Boogahz
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9438
Joined: July 6, 2002, 2:00 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: corin12
PSN ID: boog144
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Post by Boogahz »

Yeah, he was the Lead Guitarist/Singer.


Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
User avatar
Kylere
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3354
Joined: July 3, 2002, 6:26 pm
Location: Flint, Michigan

Post by Kylere »

The book is tripe and only fit for the US Weekly News set to buy up and gobble about, the Catholic Church is responsible for the most death by an organized religion ( and when you top out Kali and the Thugees you are smoking)

One thing that sucks attacks another, sounds like AOL and Microsoft going at it.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
User avatar
Truant
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4440
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:37 am
Location: Trumania
Contact:

Post by Truant »

No. James (jimmy) Iha was the lead guitarist for Smashing Pumpkins. All the way back to the beginning. You might remember him, Japanese fellow.

He has his own project now, I don't know the name however.
*~*stragi*~*
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3876
Joined: July 3, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: kimj0ngil
Location: Ahwatukee, Arizona
Contact:

Post by *~*stragi*~* »

The Jimmy Iha project.
User avatar
Boogahz
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 9438
Joined: July 6, 2002, 2:00 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: corin12
PSN ID: boog144
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Post by Boogahz »

Truant wrote:No. James (jimmy) Iha was the lead guitarist for Smashing Pumpkins. All the way back to the beginning. You might remember him, Japanese fellow.

He has his own project now, I don't know the name however.

From one of the Smashing Pumpkins bios online:
James and Billy share the lead guitar and rhythm guitar duties live, although he hasn't always been so involved in the lead guitar side of the music.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Corrigan played most of the lead and he wrote the stuff. the few times i saw them live, i never saw Iha really solo. I'm sure he was a significant contributor to everything, but the sound and the majority of the guitar work is Corrigan's, in my opinion.

and its not like the Allman Brothers where you can really hear two contrasting guitar sounds/styles. Smashing Pumpkins really sounds like they have one dominant guitar player to me.

I'm not some super fanboi or anything, but i loved them in college, and i've probably listened to Gish and Siamese Dream about a billion times. Hell i even learned to play most of Siamese Dream. that being said, i coudl be wrong about Iha. But i doubt it.

One of the weaknesses of Smashing Pumpkins was actually how dominant of a roll Corrigan played in composition. Kind of like how Roger Waters overkill bloats stuff like "The Wall" and makes "The Final Cut" pretty tough to stomach, and ultimately destroys Pink Floyd. Yes all Pink floyd albums after 1975 suck.
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Post by Siji »

Voronwë wrote:or the Divine Comedy
Or Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
"(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations,"
Because we all know how factual the bible is. :roll:


Ed: Musically you may like Corrigan and his music better, but technically speaking, I'd have to give it to Wylde as being the "better" guitar player.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

Christ, I don't even like Smashing Pumpkins or Billy Corgan but at least I spell his fucking name correctly.


Yes all Pink floyd albums after 1975 suck
I would disagree. Animals does not suck.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Siji wrote: Because we all know how factual the bible is. :roll:
Compare it to any contemporary work and you'll find it leaps and bounds more consistent.

Compare it to modern archeology, and you'll find it on target.

Compare it to third party historical accounts and you'll find it on target.


As far as the Da Vinci Code,

As long as people know it's a fictional story I don't see what the big deal is.
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Post by Siji »

Adex_Xeda wrote:
Siji wrote: Because we all know how factual the bible is. :roll:
Compare it to any contemporary work and you'll find it leaps and bounds more consistent.
Compare it to modern archeology, and you'll find it on target.
Compare it to third party historical accounts and you'll find it on target.
When you've got proof that what happened in the bible is factual and not theory, get back with us. Until then it's fiction written by the hand of humans with as much fact as any other religion's version of their bible.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Animals does not suck. i stand corrected. i meant 1977. <3 dogs
User avatar
Truant
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4440
Joined: July 4, 2002, 12:37 am
Location: Trumania
Contact:

Post by Truant »

Oh shit, I learned something.

I stand corrected as well. Thanks.
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Support your claim Siji, and I'll respond in kind.
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Post by Siji »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Support your claim Siji, and I'll respond in kind.
Support my claim? My claim is that there is no factual proof that the bible is not theory or fiction. Until such proof is made available, my claim is supported.
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Your request is a bit vague.

Shall we begin with archeology and the bible's reference to ancient cities in comparison to their known location today?

Shall we compare stories in the bible against third party references?

Shall we compare the bible to other ancient works in terms of reproduction accuracy?

You can go a thousand ways with this and time and time again the bible is confirmed.

Scholars and sceptics have been digging at the bible for ages and yet the bible remains a centerpiece of philosophy, law, and morality.

What bullet hole have you found that thousands before you have missed?

Show me your hangup issue and we'll go exploring together.
User avatar
Aabidano
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4861
Joined: July 19, 2002, 2:23 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Florida

Post by Aabidano »

Drinsic Darkwood wrote:Pumpkins are fucking awesome =/ I like Pearl Jam, too.
Neither are\were all that original or impressive IMO, decent but not in the least amazing.

I can't think of any Pink Floyd albums I don't like, though some are better than others...

You might not agree with the rationale behind what happens in the bible but nearly all the factual information in there has been verified to greater or lesser extent, and I don't recall any of it being specificcally disproven by other works or evidence. Every attempt to shoot holes in it by non-biased researchers has failed.
"Life is what happens while you're making plans for later."
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

Hey Adex, the Davinci Code is historically and geograpically accurate (for the most part).... but it's still fiction.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

yeah the bible is extremely fact-based.

like that time that Abraham lived to be like 200 years old.

and that time that Saul became king one way, and then like 40 pages later, Saul became king an entirely different way. ANd also that time that God created the world in 7 days and created some animals some days, and then the people. And then another time God created the world and made a garden and created people then created some animals, and those people had 2 sons, and all of a sudden they met some other people who apparently already existed, allowing them to procreate, etc.

oh yeah and then there is that time that the universe is 5,800 years old.

so joking aside, the fact that the Bible is not literally true does not prove the absence of God. It is important though to recognize that Christianity has myths just like every other religion that are part of its foundation, and some of those myths are even the products of previous religions (ie predating Judaism).

I dont know if you guys are attempting to argue that the Bible is literally the word of God, but if you are, I would like you to start the argument by declaring which English translation is "the Word", because even the mainstream translations out there are substantially different.
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Post by Siji »

Voronwë wrote:so joking aside, the fact that the Bible is not literally true does not prove the absence of God.
I wasn't questioning the existence or absence of God in any way. I was stating the the bible is no more factual than the Da Vinci Code.. several of the examples you provided do well enough to prove that point. Religion is about faith in whatever diety you worship or believe in. Having faith in a book written by man is something completely different, but too often believed to be a requirement of faith in said diety.

The Bible != God
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

you and i agree =)
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Voronwë wrote: I dont know if you guys are attempting to argue that the Bible is literally the word of God, but if you are, I would like you to start the argument by declaring which English translation is "the Word", because even the mainstream translations out there are substantially different.
I'm not arguing that the bible has perfect wording in every translation. Heck no large translated work can claim this. What is uncommon about the bible is that the message survives in an consistent manner despite thousands of translations of it. If you read across many translations, and earlier and later versions, the prime message of a particular passage survives and reaches you. How such a message remained consistent over milliena hints toward divine maintenence. It has a consistentcy that out performs any other comparable work.

As far as historical accuracy I can provide you a laundry list of supporting evidence that confirms its accuracy. It's dry reading but it's available. Here's a summary page to whet your appetite. I can provide much more. Authors have made their careers catalogging this kind of stuff.

Would you mind pointing out the two troubling passages about Saul Voronwe? It would save me a lot of time hunting them down.

As far as the seven day creation, and a young earth idea. It's God man, if he wanted to create things in an instant he could. I personally don't know if Genesis' reference to a "day" of creation was literal day, or an analogy to something much harder to put into words. What is communicated to me is the concept that all of my existence was created by God.

The bible is a remarkable work. If you follow its guidelines, you enable yourself to closely interact with God.

To casually call it a haugepauge of innaccuracies and misguided fairy tales, requires the accuser to assume a worse case interpretation of everything they see or hear about the bible.

If the bible was a normal book, the whole jew/christian thing would have died thousands of years ago. There is something special about it.
Zamtuk
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4781
Joined: September 21, 2002, 12:21 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Zamtuk »

I love the part in the bible that condemns the acceptance of false idols when over 66 percent of the world is not christian.

oh and btw adex, all of the translations in the history of the bible are not true to the ones before it. ie. the hebrew version is a lot different in many ways (still same ideas mind you) than the new international edition.

and another thing, how does anyone know for sure that it took god 7 days to build earth (farm calender, celestial or otherwise) when no one was around to see it, not to mention that writing wouldnt be invented until thousand of years later. also cant forget about the great flood with noah, i must have skipped over the part where he brought all scriptures on board with him to preserve the word of god. because if he didn't then we would have to start over from scratch, yes?
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Adex_Xeda wrote: Would you mind pointing out the two troubling passages about Saul Voronwe? It would save me a lot of time hunting them down.
I will try to look. something like I Kings or I Samuel. the part of the Old Testament that obviously deals with the era of the Temple being intact in Jeruselem, etc. but yeah, fair of you to ask me for proof ;)
Adex wrote:As far as the seven day creation, and a young earth idea. It's God man, if he wanted to create things in an instant he could. I personally don't know if Genesis' reference to a "day" of creation was literal day, or an analogy to something much harder to put into words. What is communicated to me is the concept that all of my existence was created by God.
i guess we all have to get on the same page as to what we are discussing :). right now i think each person is just giving some of their opinions on some of the subjects etc =). anyway, but to this point yes the Biblically defined God can do whatever he wants if in fact he is real. That is no more proof that he exists though than me declaring myself to be God.
If the bible was a normal book, the whole jew/christian thing would have died thousands of years ago. There is something special about it.
The Bible is special to you, therefor you attribute aspects of it that are not unique to the Bible as signifying that uniqueness.

I'm not sure what you mean by the jew/christian thing, but all major religions have significant texts that have endured for hundreds - in some cases thousands - of years.

all the translations may convey the same information. Gateway product manuals convey the same information that Dell product manuals do (powering on computer, etc) though the words and manner in which they do so are probably pretty different.

i'm not trying to broad-stroke paint all religious people in any light. my comment was about biblical literalism, and to justify various points like multiple translations as well as the hundreds of years of oral tradition that predated the aforementioned period of the Kingdom of Israel (Temple period, whatever the proper term is), takes some equivocation in my view.
Zamtuk
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4781
Joined: September 21, 2002, 12:21 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Zamtuk »

It should also be known that the Jewish people use the Torah as their bible which is the old testament of the christian bible. In case you are unfamiliar with the subject, the Roman Empire finally laid waste to the temple of Jerusalem all in the name of Christianity (catholicism to be more exact).

No that last part wasn't relevant, however it is funny to see one kingdom slaughtering another kingdom over different views on the same documents.
User avatar
Marbus
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2378
Joined: July 4, 2002, 2:21 am
Contact:

Post by Marbus »

Here is a couple of points that make sense to me... not saying they do to most people who voted for Bush in the last election but oh well...

If you believe that God is all powerful or the Omni-everything being then it logically follows that God is also beyond our understanding of "time."

If God can and does function out side of what we consider a linear progression of time then creating God being limited to 7 rotations of the Earth around the Sun (or 7 24 hours periods) wouldn't follow.

What would follow though, IMHO, is that it took billions of years for the Universe to form and millions of years here on Earth. To a being outside of time it wouldn't matter right? There wouldn't really be a "before" or "after" there would just be "thought"... kind of like the Worm-Hole aliens in Deep Space 9.

I also agree that Christinity builds on what came before it and often doesn't really understand those building blocks... more examples.

Christ came at Isreals Messiah at a time when "messiahs" were showing up quite often. In the 300 years before his birth I think the community had "thought" that 7-10 people were the ones coming to fulfill the prophecy. It's VERY important to note that almost all of these individuals were warriors. The understanding of the time was that God's Messiah would come and "free" the Jews... the "freedom" they were looking for was a political freedom from the Romans. When Jesus came he came with a very different message. His message of acceptance, love, compassion, taking care of one another, and seeking the Truth overrode all. That isn't what people wanted to hear, they wanted someone to kick the Romans out. His message, which also included movement away from the hundreds of rules the Jewish people followed everyday was just too much... and he was put to death for it (and I believe that God brought him back 3 days later to fulfill his promise of salvation and bring forth the possibility of a new ability to fellowship with God).

Now most Christians don't realize that, they think that Jesus showed up, everyone knew he was the Messiah but that some of the leaders didn't like him so they had him killed etc... etc... etc... Personally I think it's very important to not the political culture of the time. These are the same people though that are VERY concerned about rules in today's society. They are the people that got upset when there was 5 seconds of a boob on TV but don't mind people's cuts hanging out on CSI. These are the people that protest others having a choice in what they watch, read or listen too, these are the people that think they, their particular sect, are the only people that can know the Truth... Sounds a LOT like the Jewish community of 2000 years ago uh?

Here's something else that we actually spoke about on this board a while back regarding the 10 Commandments... Most of the Christians on this board wanted to argue with me that it says "Thou shalt not kill" which is NOT in the 10 commandments. That is a misquote/translation error going back to the King James Version. The Hebrew version it came from, Torah as previously noted, specifically states "You shouldn't MURDER" That is a big difference. If you don't believe me go into any Jewish Temple and look it up. Some people always want to agrue how Isreal could kill all these people in War yet God told them not to kill... it's because that wasn't what it said.

So... IMHO the Bible is to be understood in 2 ways. Primarily as the Word of God and secondly as a 2000-5000 year old document. What I believe is that through reading it, the stories, the overall message, God will reveal his Truth to you. That is the Truth with a capital T, not every single word which may or may not have been mistranslated by some monk 1200 years ago.

Cheers!
Marb

PS - I will agree that Waters is a buttmunch but I still think Wish You were Here is a great disc. Given I like Animals better but I still think WYWH is one of there best. Personally though I like all of them to some degree. Gilmore is one of the greatest guitarist of this century and also one of the most underated. His work on the Momentary Lapse of Reason make those and some of the newer material awesome as well.
Image
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

But what if you're travelling in god's channel?
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Zamtuk wrote:It should also be known that the Jewish people use the Torah as their bible which is the old testament of the christian bible. In case you are unfamiliar with the subject, the Roman Empire finally laid waste to the temple of Jerusalem all in the name of Christianity (catholicism to be more exact).

No that last part wasn't relevant, however it is funny to see one kingdom slaughtering another kingdom over different views on the same documents.
Are you sure? I thought Romans burned out the last temple and scattered the inhabitants all over the empire as a result of a jewish uprising. I don't recall catholicism being established at that time yet.



Voronwe, I'm sure you bumped into something about Saul, I'm not doubting that. It's just I couldn't find the references when I spent 30 min or so looking.

You known I'm in to this kind of thing, because it is my faith, and because I like for things to make sense. What I have learned, is whenever I bump into an apparent contradiction in the bible, a little digging and checking of the context and root words reveals that it isn't a contradiction. It is a very confirming action for me.

Siji's original claim was that the bible was just as much a fairy tail as the Da Vinci code book, that neither could be verified as 100% true.

Nothing is 100% if touched by human hands. The bible however has solid historical confirmation through archeology, and through confirming third party works.

The bible has an amazing endurance over thousands of years. Historical records confirm its accounts, and archeology supports the bible's statements about ancient cities.

The Da vinci code book doesn't have this kind of supporting evidence. It was created to entertain the reader.

Calling the those two the same is silly.
User avatar
Lohrno
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2416
Joined: July 6, 2002, 4:58 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Post by Lohrno »

There is a lot of true things about Da Vinci code too. Like Paris is a real city, I'd say archaeology confirms that this is true. There actually is a L'Ouve museum of art.

It must all be true!
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

Yea yea,

I get Siji's point, he just chose a outleagued comparison.
Zamtuk
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4781
Joined: September 21, 2002, 12:21 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Zamtuk »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Are you sure? I thought Romans burned out the last temple and scattered the inhabitants all over the empire as a result of a jewish uprising. I don't recall catholicism being established at that time yet.
Absolutely sure. They persecuted the jews because of their faith and that they did not, of course, follow their own faith, which is now better known as Roman Catholicism. And the temple they did destroy was the Temple of Jerusalem, which was the main temple. After the destruction of the temple and after they got back their land, they created special places of worship, now known as synagogues.
User avatar
Adex_Xeda
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2278
Joined: July 3, 2002, 7:35 pm
Location: The Mighty State of Texas

Post by Adex_Xeda »

This is news to me, where did you read this?


The temple was sacked in 70AD by Titus, the guy who succeeded Nero who was as you recall quite anti-christian.
Here's a great summary: http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

The first big time christian supporting caesar was Constantine. He didn't come into play until 285AD.
http://www.request.org.uk/main/history/ ... antine.htm

Here's one more tidbit about the early Catholic beginnings
During the first two hundred years of this era the church was under persecution from various Roman emperors. It was heightened and at its worse with Diocletian (30 A.D.) who even persecuted his own wife and daughter for being Christians. Christianity became legalized as a religion in the era of Constantine (321 A.D.)
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Historical ... Period.htm

Do you recall what you read that told you that catholic romans sacked Jerusalem? I'm curious what dates they quote.
Zamtuk
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4781
Joined: September 21, 2002, 12:21 am
Location: Columbus, OH

Post by Zamtuk »

OK, upon further research i have came into a shitload of grey areas, all of which could start massive debates. I have found about 4 differing opinions many from here, in just a minor search.

One belief is that while they didn't officially beleive in it, they did preach it, it just did not become official until around the dates you already stated.

Another would be to call the Romans Pagans which starts the Da Vinci Code debate.

Another would come from here which claims that while they did not at the time directly support christianity they did take ideas from it as well as other superstitions and what not.

So I guess I was wrong in saying that it was done in the name of Chritianity, however, I could see how it could be confused.

On a side note of religion, during my research I found it sacreligous to take birth control. Just a heads up for all your religous women!
Post Reply