Another excuse to bash the US

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Brotha
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Another excuse to bash the US

Post by Brotha »

The latest excuse for the world to bash the US is the freed Italian journlaist who was shot and the agent that was killed.

The US's version is that the car was speeding and, after firing warning shots and using various signals, refused to stop. If this is the true version I think the responsibility clearly lies with the driver NOT the US military. This option isn't even being considered by anyone though, it's all the US's fault.

The journalist's version is that the car wasn't speeding, there were no kind of signals to stop, and it was just randomly fired on by the US, she even has some kind of conspiracy theory that "the US didn't want her to return." AKAIK we don't randomly fire on cars for no reason, and I highly doubt our military would want to stop a hostate from returning, especially considering the fiasco that would ensue from killing this particular journalist and the fact that Italy is our ally and has troops in Iraq with us.

At the very least people should wait to see what an investiation turns up to pass judgement. That's not happening, of course.

I read about this on the BBC site and the AP story that I'm gonna post. Tell me if this isn't bias on the BBC's part. Clearly the BBC is trying to minimize the efforts the US military made (or said it made) to stop the car.

BBC:
The US military says that the car was speeding as it approached a checkpoint and that, after warning signals, they fired towards the vehicle.
AP:
The U.S. military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the car to stop.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,149535,00.html
Associated Press

ROME — The Italian journalist who was wounded by American troops at a checkpoint in Baghdad shortly after she was released by her Iraqi captors denied U.S. allegations that the car she was in was speeding. In an article Sunday, she called her ordeal "the most dramatic day of my life."

Giuliana Sgrena (search) described how she was wounded and Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed as she was celebrating her freedom on the way to the airport. The shooting Friday has fueled anti-American sentiment in a country where people are deeply opposed to the war in Iraq.

"I remember only fire," Sgrena wrote in her newspaper, the communist daily Il Manifesto. "At that point a rain of fire and bullets came at us, forever silencing the happy voices from a few minutes earlier."

Sgrena said the driver began shouting that they were Italian, then "Nicola Calipari dove on top of me to protect me and immediately, and I mean immediately, I felt his last breath as he died on me."

Suddenly, she said, she remembered her captors' words, when they warned her "to be careful because the Americans don't want you to return."

The U.S. military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the car to stop. But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said "there was no bright light, no signal."

Italian military officials said two other agents were wounded, but U.S. officials said it was only one. The agent who was killed, Calipari, had led negotiations for the journalist's release.

Sgrena returned to Rome (search) on Saturday morning, looking haggard and with a blanket wrapped around her shoulders. She walked unsteadily and was hooked up to an intravenous drip following surgery to remove shrapnel from her shoulder.

She recounted her ordeal later from a Rome military hospital, where she also met with Calipari's wife, the Italian news agency Apcom said.

In her article, Sgrena wrote that her captors warned her as she was about to be released not to signal her presence to anyone, because "the Americans might intervene."

"It was the happiest and also the most dangerous moment," Sgrena wrote. "If we had run into someone, meaning American troops, there would have been an exchange of fire, and my captors were ready and they would have responded."

Sgrena said her captors then blindfolded her and drove her to a location, where they made her get out of the car.

That's when she first heard Calipari's voice, she said.

"Giuliana, Giuliana, I'm Nicola. Don't worry, I've spoken with (Il Manifesto director) Gabriele Polo. Don't worry, you're free," he told her.

Neither Italian nor U.S. officials gave out any details about how Sgrena managed to gain her freedom after a month in the hands of Iraqi insurgents, but there was speculation over possible ransom.

An Iraqi lawmaker, Youdaam Youssef Kanna, told Belgian state TV Saturday evening that he had "nonofficial" information that a US$1 million (euro760,000) ransom was paid for Sgrena's release, Apcom reported from Brussels.

The shooting came as a new blow to the center-right government of Premier Silvio Berlusconi (search), a strong ally of U.S. President George W. Bush. Tens of thousands of Italians regularly demonstrated against the Iraq war, and the Italian left — including Sgrena's newspaper — vigorously opposed the conflict.

Berlusconi, President Carlo Azeglio Ciampi and Polo were among the people who joined Calipari's family at Rome's Ciampino Airport late Saturday before the agent's body was flown in shortly before midnight.

The coffin with Calipari's body was carried out of the military plane wrapped in an Italian flag and blessed by a military priest and the agent's brother, a priest who serves on a Vatican advisory body. Calipari's wife, mother and two children also were present.

The coffin was loaded onto a hearse and taken to the coroner's office in Rome. An autopsy began on Sunday, according to news reports.

The body was expected to lie in state at Rome's Vittoriano monument, and a state funeral was planned for Monday.

Ciampi said he would award Calipari with the gold medal of valor for his heroism.

"What happened yesterday in Baghdad was a homicide," Polo told Apcom.

"The Americans must be firmly reminded to respect human and civil rules," the ANSA news agency quoted Mirko Tremaglia, minister for Italians abroad, as saying.

Sgrena was abducted Feb. 4 by gunmen who blocked her car outside Baghdad University.
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Post by Lynks »

Its quite possible that they were too excited to see the hand signals and bright lights.

As for the bias thing, I dont think it is. Do you think it is because they left out "warning shots"?
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Post by Niffoni »

I can see how it would happen. But it's still tragic, and it's a good thing that official apologies were expressed immediately. Obviously there should be a full investigation, but this one looks like it was just an unhappy accident.
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Post by Metanis »

Let us reflect here...

This is a country where suicide car bombings are a daily fact of life...

... thus troops manning checkpoints may be a bit strict...

... and perhaps you might get shot if you are driving a car toward those troops and ignore orders to stop?

NO! Forget that it's too logical. Let's opt for Theory B...

I'm sure it was an evil American conspiracy because we just gotta piss on Italians today! Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's blame America first!

Whew! I feel better all ready!

(No fair observing the Italian's flawless intellect. After all these are the people who sided with Hitler.)
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Post by Niffoni »

As Metanis so cleverly parodied in his post, any anger about this is probably just coming from people whose first reaction is to get angry, and start making dubious references to Hitler to describe an entire nation. I can't imagine that there'd be an signifigant backlash from this one. If there is, it'll be from people who are just looking for something to be pissed about.
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Post by Kelshara »

Problem is, the US doesn't have the best reputation for telling the truth atm. Remember that little session with presenting proof to the UN? That did more damage than you might think. The result is that people have a hard time believing things like this. They will always consider that you are saying whatever you need to say to get it your way.

Oh and Metanis, you are the people who slaughtered indians so of course you are guncrazy warmongers! :roll:
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Post by Winnow »

Kelshara wrote:
Oh and Metanis, you are the people who slaughtered indians so of course you are guncrazy warmongers! :roll:
Why go back so far? How about something more recent like in Europe where you guys couldn't keep peace on your own continent and the U.S. had to come bail you out of the two big ones?

I recall a euro trying to exterminate all of the jews. (and hippies/gypsies (aka liberal pussy types)

I don't care what country you're from in Europe, you would have been sucking Nazi cock within a year or two if not for some outside help. We had to do that while dealing with the more direct thread of Imperial Japan at the same time (stopping the mass slaughter of chinese). We dropped a few atomic bombs but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of chinese put to death by the japanese.

The descendants of indian slaughterers are the ones that saved your ass.
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Post by Kelshara »

You obviously missed the point (surprise there). None of us have a clean and clear past, using something as ridiculous as the Hitler comment is as stupid as my Indian comment.

..and btw if you want to argue it Winnow, you would have been in trouble as well if all of Europe (and then Russia) had fallen.
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Post by Sueven »

Brotha, I don't think that BBC quote is biased at all. Both quotes you posted are perfectly correct, 100 percent factual statements. If you do feel that one of them must be less biased than the other, what journalistic value implores you to approve the AP one?

And yes:
If the Italian car did ignore signals, then the driver is at fault.
If the American military did ambush the vehicle, then we are at fault.

Not having any sort of factual evidence one way or the other I marvel at the fact that people have already formed strong opinions about this.
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Post by Brotha »

Lynks wrote:As for the bias thing, I dont think it is. Do you think it is because they left out "warning shots"?
"Signals" can mean a lot of things. After reading the quotes from BBC and AP, which gave you more of an impression that more was done to help stop the car? Plus that's the only time in the whole article when the US's version of what happened is given, they should have listed the wide range of signals the US claimed to have used.

This story has been the front page story for days on the BBC's site btw, I can't remember a story that was there longer. Well, I take that back, Abu Ghraib was.

Now their side of the US military's story is even less:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4323361.stm
The US military, who said troops fired on the speeding car after it failed to stop, has opened a full investigation.
More on her conspiracy theory (note she writes for a left-wing paper):
Earlier, in another interview with Sky Italia TV, she said it was possible the soldiers had targeted her because Washington opposed the policy of negotiating with kidnappers.

"Everyone knows that the Americans do not like negotiations to free hostages, and because of this I don't see why I should exclude the possibility of me having been the target," she said.

And writing in her left-wing Il Manifesto newspaper, she said upon her release her kidnappers warned her to be careful 'because there are Americans who don't want you to go back'."
Edit: Sueven I agree they are both factually correct, but just because they're factually correct doesn't mean they're right. I know you posted before I did, but I think the BBC should have given the signals the US military claimed it used. Saying we used "signals" to help stop a car seems so much more less than "hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots."
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Post by Kelshara »

However, there is no evidence (yet) that they did use those. Personally, I'd say using those words you want would be very pro-US. Ignoring the fact completely would be against the US. BBC comes across as neutral in this one imho, which is where a news media should be.
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Post by Winnow »

Kelshara wrote:You obviously missed the point (surprise there). None of us have a clean and clear past, using something as ridiculous as the Hitler comment is as stupid as my Indian comment.

..and btw if you want to argue it Winnow, you would have been in trouble as well if all of Europe (and then Russia) had fallen.
Only if Germany beat us to the atomic bomb!

We're both lucky Hitler was a nut. If he hadn't lost his entire eastern front army fighting Russia in the winter and had instead concentrated on taking England first, the U.S. may not have been able to help in time.

There's no doubt, Germany had all the technology and well trained troops. The United States spent most of that war trying to catch up to the Germans.
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Post by Hesten »

Sueven wrote:Brotha, I don't think that BBC quote is biased at all. Both quotes you posted are perfectly correct, 100 percent factual statements. If you do feel that one of them must be less biased than the other, what journalistic value implores you to approve the AP one?

And yes:
If the Italian car did ignore signals, then the driver is at fault.
If the American military did ambush the vehicle, then we are at fault.

Not having any sort of factual evidence one way or the other I marvel at the fact that people have already formed strong opinions about this.
I must admit that i believe a lot more in the italians at this points. We got a newly released hostage who are already quite shaken, but are now safe.
What are the odds that her driver should choose to speed agains an american checkpoint? Theres nothing to run from, the freedom fighters gave her free, shes not running from anything.
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Post by Brotha »

Kelshara wrote:However, there is no evidence (yet) that they did use those. Personally, I'd say using those words you want would be very pro-US. Ignoring the fact completely would be against the US. BBC comes across as neutral in this one imho, which is where a news media should be.
I know, I've clearly said everytime that's what the US military "said" it did. The most "neutral" thing would have been to say what each side claimed happened, not generalize what one side claimed it did in a way that clearly minimizes its efforts.
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Post by Kelshara »

Well the way I read it was fairly neutral, seemed to tone down both sides quite a bit. But a lot of it will be in the eyes of the beholder.

Winnow,
Interesting you should bring up the part about Hitler and the nuclear bomb. New information seems to indicate that he in fact had nuclear material before the Americans and would have had what would today be called a "dirty bomb" if he wanted it. He underestimated how powerful it could be though so they never finished it. Pretty much the same as how they did not push jet fighters even though they had the technology first.

I wholeheartedly agree on the focus on England part though. We are all lucky he ignored his advisors there.
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Post by Winnow »

Kelshara wrote: Winnow,
Interesting you should bring up the part about Hitler and the nuclear bomb. New information seems to indicate that he in fact had nuclear material before the Americans and would have had what would today be called a "dirty bomb" if he wanted it. He underestimated how powerful it could be though so they never finished it. Pretty much the same as how they did not push jet fighters even though they had the technology first.

I wholeheartedly agree on the focus on England part though. We are all lucky he ignored his advisors there.
We also had German scientists working on the Manhatten project. Some jews too!

I have a lot of respect for German ingenuity. Those bastards kicked some serious ass in WWI and WWII even though they lost. There are many lucky breaks the allies got in WWII or things would be much different today.

The United States won't make the same mistakes Germany did when the time comes! Shit, I've said too much!
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Post by Xorian »

But i can think that the americans soldiers were warned at some point of the coming convoy for the liberation of this reporter. (now if the information didnt pass along...someone is to blame).

Beside the car was driven by someone who prolly know about the usuall signals the US army use to stop vehicle and it is doubtfull he would speed on the check point.

But you must remember that the governement in Italia sent soldiers in Iraq with a very little public approbation and that there has been huge anti-war protest there. So it has a big impact in Europa and especially in Italia.

Im not putting aside the fact that all of that could be a silly accident, a very silly and stupid one :( Can't blame the soldiers to be stressed in a place where on a daily basis, people use cars full of explosive as weapons.
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Post by Ashur »

I think if the troops wanted her dead, she'd be dead.

Tragic event IMO, similar to the fratricide of the ex-football player.
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Post by Brotha »

Looks like we might not have been kept in the loop concerning her release and might not have known they would be passing through then:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20050307 ... -5769r.htm

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being somewhere in middle of what both sides are saying (i.e. they were speeding but not very bad, the military used hand and arm signals but didn't fire warning shots into the air, etc). From what I've read it was a dangerous stretch of road that they were passing through, we should definently give the soldiers the benefit of the doubt here.

I just see this as a macabre, tragic twist of fate, and it really bothers me that people are using this as another excuse to bash the US. Some people are actually taking her conspiracy theory about the US not wanting her to return seriously.
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Post by *~*stragi*~* »

Sueven wrote:Brotha, I don't think that BBC quote is biased at all. Both quotes you posted are perfectly correct, 100 percent factual statements. If you do feel that one of them must be less biased than the other, what journalistic value implores you to approve the AP one?

And yes:
If the Italian car did ignore signals, then the driver is at fault.
If the American military did ambush the vehicle, then we are at fault.

Not having any sort of factual evidence one way or the other I marvel at the fact that people have already formed strong opinions about this.
I kinda get the feeling that if the US wanted the vehicle ambushed, this bitch wouldn't be alive spewing feces out of her mouth. Seriously, if we didn't want her alive, why is she still alive? Are people that stupid?
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Post by Hoarmurath »

Brotha wrote:Some people are actually taking her conspiracy theory about the US not wanting her to return seriously.
I heard on the radio today that the Italian government is actually condemning this statement. ("condemning" may not be the right word, but they are making it clear that her opinion is not that of the Italian government*.)

*At least, not the opinion they want to show publicly.
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Post by Sueven »

and of course keep in mind that her newspaper is called "il manifesto."
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Post by Brotha »

Hoarmurath wrote:
Brotha wrote:Some people are actually taking her conspiracy theory about the US not wanting her to return seriously.
I heard on the radio today that the Italian government is actually condemning this statement. ("condemning" may not be the right word, but they are making it clear that her opinion is not that of the Italian government*.)

*At least, not the opinion they want to show publicly.
Yeah I think I read where the Italian intelligence agency called her claim "ridiculous."
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I am thinking we should ship this commie bitch back to the terrorists.
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Post by Lynks »

Maybe the italians gunned her down using american weapons!
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Post by Crav »

Here's an article on a more level headed Italian response.

Link

I do hope that we conduct a thorough investigation. From the sound of it the agent we killed was very good at his job and saved the ex-hostage at the cost of his own life. I think his family deserves to know what happened.

While I don't believe that our soldiers would intentionally target civilians I don't think they are above shooting first and asking questions later, is that wrong? I guess that's a matter of opinion. From the article it sounds like the agent had set up an escape route and the regular check points had been notified since they had already passed through those. The one where they were shot at was a temporary check point so they might not have been notified to expect them and were on high alert since they were responsible for an American diplomat's safety.
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Post by Brotha »

An article in today's Washington Times had some interesting info in it (I'm referring to the info regarding the investigation more than the internal Pentagon memo):

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050 ... -1847r.htm
Italian security forces failed to make arrangements for safe passage out of Iraq for a freed Italian reporter, whose car was fired on by U.S. troops, killing intelligence agent Nicola Calipari who brokered the reporter's release, according to an internal Pentagon memo.

The memo says checkpoint soldiers are trained to deal with erratic speeding vehicles whose drivers ignored warnings -- a profile that matches the Army's version of events in Friday night's shooting.

The memo says more than 500 American troops have been killed on the streets and at checkpoints in Iraq. Mistaken shootings of civilians resulted in "few deadly incidents" since the U.S. started checkpoints in March 2003, according to the memo.

Meanwhile, the White House dismissed as "absurd" the stated suspicion of the reporter, Giuliana Sgrena, who said the United States tried to kill her because it opposes negotiations with terrorists to free hostages. Miss Sgrena, a reporter for the Italian communist newspaper Il Manifesto, provided no evidence.

"It's absurd to make any such suggestion that our men and women in uniform would deliberately target innocent civilians," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan adding: "We regret this incident. We are going to fully investigate what exactly occurred."

Maj. Gen. William G. Webster Jr., who heads the Army's 3rd Infantry Division, yesterday completed the "commander's preliminary inquiry." He has decided to conduct a more extensive inquiry, called a 15-6 for the regulation that authorizes it. Gen. Webster will name one officer to head the probe.

A U.S. official said that of all the cars that passed through the checkpoint that night, the reporter's vehicle was the only one fired upon.

"Something that car did caused the soldiers to fire," said the official, who asked not to be named.

The shooting occurred at night at a checkpoint on a notoriously dangerous road that links Baghdad to the international airport.

The incident has put a spotlight on "friendly fire" episodes that occur with some regularity in Iraq when motorists fail to heed warnings to stop at roadside checkpoints and are fired on by American troops who fear that the vehicle might be a weapon. Cars and trucks are a common weapon in suicide bombings and drive-by shootings.

The soldiers did not know that Miss Sgrena and Italian agents were headed in their direction on the way to the airport for a flight back to Italy.

An internal Pentagon information memo states, "This is war. About 500 American service members have been killed by hostile fire while operating on Iraqi streets and highways. The journalist was driving in pitch-dark and at a high speed and failed, according to the first reports, to respond to numerous warnings. Besides, there is no indication that the Italian security forces made prior arrangements to facilitate the transition to the airport."

The left-leaning Italian newspaper La Repubblica reported yesterday that Mr. Calipari decided not to use available escort protection from the elite commandos who protect Italy's Baghdad embassy.

Instead, he rented an inconspicuous pickup trick to recover Miss Sgrena, wrote La Repubblica's top investigative reporter, Giuseppe D'Avanzo.

"In Iraq, the United States makes the rules and the Italian ally also must respect them. If it wants to break them, it must do so with a double game and some crafty tricks," Mr. D'Avanzo wrote.

Italian magistrates have opened an inquiry into the killing and are arranging for the truck to be flown to Italy for examination by ballistic experts, judicial sources said. The magistrates also have obtained from the U.S. military the cellular phone that Mr. Calipari was carrying when he was shot.

Analysis of calls logged on the cellular phone might allow investigators to determine the speed at which the vehicle was traveling when U.S. troops opened fire on it, the sources say.

Mel Sembler, U.S. ambassador to Italy, reiterated Washington's position in a 45-minute meeting with Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi last night, diplomatic sources said.

Robert Maginnis, a retired Army officer and military analyst, said Rome should have done a better job coordinating Miss Sgrena's exit once the Italians negotiated her release.

"It seems to me that the Italian secret service considers this a James Bond movie in Baghdad," Mr. Maginnis said. "They're driving around at night picking up a journalist who has been kidnapped and pretending they can get through a phalanx of checkpoints along the deadliest road in all of Iraq without being detected, much less shot up."

The Army's 3rd Infantry Division, which last week resumed command of Baghdad operations after participating in the 2003 invasion, said the soldiers had warned the approaching car repeatedly before opening fire.

According to the division, the patrol attempted to warn the driver to stop by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car."
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Post by Metanis »

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 0429162837
WASHINGTON (AFP) - A US satellite reportedly recorded a checkpoint shooting in Iraq last month, enabling investigators to reconstruct how fast a car carrying a top Italian intelligence official and a freed hostage was traveling when US troops opened fire. The report, which aired Thursday on CBS News, said US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour.
This event was sad.

The Italian agents look really stupid.

First they neglect to coordinate with US forces in any fashion. Then they speed toward a checkpoint in the dark. Then they lie about it and try to blame the soldiers manning the checkpoint.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Metanis wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... 0429162837
WASHINGTON (AFP) - A US satellite reportedly recorded a checkpoint shooting in Iraq last month, enabling investigators to reconstruct how fast a car carrying a top Italian intelligence official and a freed hostage was traveling when US troops opened fire. The report, which aired Thursday on CBS News, said US investigators concluded from the recording that the car was traveling at a speed of more than 60 miles (96 km) per hour.
This event was sad.

The Italian agents look really stupid.

First they neglect to coordinate with US forces in any fashion. Then they speed toward a checkpoint in the dark. Then they lie about it and try to blame the soldiers manning the checkpoint.
Bashing the US and making the public at large hate us is the in thing to do. Thankfully for those people there are anough short-sighted, shallow minded people who fall for all their non-sense every time.
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Post by Kelshara »

Don't need an excuse to bash the US, it comes naturally. Just like it comes naturally for the US to bash France. No difference.
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Post by nobody »

Kelshara wrote:Don't need an excuse to bash the US, it comes naturally. Just like it comes naturally for the US to bash France. No difference.
hah, touche :wink:
My goal is to live forever. So far so good.
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin

خودتان را بگای
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

Wow, bitter and resentful much Mid?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:Wow, bitter and resentful much Mid?
Nope. I realize that is the way the world works. Just telling it as it is.
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Post by Nick »

Yeah, "like it is".

You just keep repeating that.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:Yeah, "like it is".

You just keep repeating that.
*pets the poor ignorant retard*
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Post by Nick »

Stop punching yourself in the head fucko, what you know about anything can be summed up in the turd you ate for breakfast. I want you to grow a fucking soul, listen to your Tool and realise you're a fucking ignoramus who doesn't understand Aenima one bit.

Then either sort it out or kill yourself. Education is in fact a good thing, not something you should be jealous of. You uncivilized neanderthals are the fucks ruining all things good. As such, your opinion (which is based on stupid doublethink and learned behaviours) continues to mean jack and shit to anyone with half a brain.

You're an insult to evolution and you know it.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Nick wrote:Stop punching yourself in the head fucko, what you know about anything can be summed up in the turd you ate for breakfast. I want you to grow a fucking soul, listen to your Tool and realise you're a fucking ignoramus who doesn't understand Aenima one bit.

Then either sort it out or kill yourself. Education is in fact a good thing, not something you should be jealous of. You uncivilized neanderthals are the fucks ruining all things good. As such, your opinion (which is based on stupid doublethink and learned behaviours) continues to mean jack and shit to anyone with half a brain.

You're an insult to evolution and you know it.
uh-huh

Yes. You must be right. How foolish to think any differently than you on any topic. To have a differing opinion should not be allowed. I apologize Hitler.



Also...please stop using Tool to make points. Its a fucking band dude. They make music. Music in which I love, however, I don't recommend making such grand philosophical statements based on the lyrics in a bands songs. Grow the fuck up.
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Post by Metanis »

Nick wrote:Stop punching yourself in the head fucko, what you know about anything can be summed up in the turd you ate for breakfast. I want you to grow a fucking soul, listen to your Tool and realise you're a fucking ignoramus who doesn't understand Aenima one bit.

Then either sort it out or kill yourself. Education is in fact a good thing, not something you should be jealous of. You uncivilized neanderthals are the fucks ruining all things good. As such, your opinion (which is based on stupid doublethink and learned behaviours) continues to mean jack and shit to anyone with half a brain.

You're an insult to evolution and you know it.
Wow, you must be having a bad night. I especially like the quote I bolded above. Do they have primers for this kind of flame posting at Moveon.org?
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Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I don't recommend making such grand philosophical statements based on the lyrics in a bands songs. Grow the fuck up.
Why not? What is better or more qualified to be the basis of philosophy? What is the difference between, say, an author who gets his beliefs or opinions published and is then labeled a philosopher and a band that releases albums with their beliefs or opinions? The medium through which they are expressing themselves? It appears you might be missing the "big picture". :roll:
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Post by Nick »

Hahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

The fucking redneck brigade of the new world calling a left winger Hitler is fucking hilarious. WTG on the old knowledge and logic application fucknut.

Word's cannot describe how much of a fucking clueless spastic you are.

If you haven't got the message from Tool, then you haven't been paying attention. YOU CANNOT MISS IT UNLESS YOU APPLY DOUBLETHINK. Congratulations! The government must be very proud of you.

I pity you, you're a desperately sad old dick.

And, if I remember correctly, it's meant to be:

FUK U HITLER!
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