Ward Churchill

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Mak
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Ward Churchill

Post by Mak »

I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up already.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/02/09 ... index.html

Excerpts:
BOULDER, Colorado (AP) -- A University of Colorado professor who likened September 11 victims to Nazis got a standing ovation when he told a campus audience of more than 1,000 people that "I'm not backing up an inch."
In an essay, Churchill wrote that workers in the World Trade Center were the equivalent of "little Eichmanns," a reference to Adolf Eichmann, who ensured the smooth running of the Nazi system. Churchill also spoke of the "gallant sacrifices" of the "combat teams" that struck America.

I think Mr. Churchill is certainly entitled to his opinion. He has a Right to Free Speach, of course. I'm sure many people agree with at least a portion of his stance, and I'm sure some agree with him wholeheartedly.

I think the University of Colorado should fire Mr. Churchill. His Right to Free Speach does not mean that he can put the University at risk of what is turning out to be extremely bad publicity, and possible legal liability.

What say you?
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Post by Zaelath »

I think it's very difficult to see any bad at all in your own country. Even the fact that your forces have been attacked daily in Iraq doesn't shake the faith of some of you that you're 100% right.
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Post by Fash »

<3 at-will employment... this guy would be gone in 2 shakes.
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Post by Animale »

I believe he has tenure, which more or less means he is entitled to have unpopular opinions without fearing for his job. Which is kind of the reason for the tenure system in the first place, to enable freedom of thought without fear of economic reprisal.

That being said, I believe his saying of the WTC victims as "little Eichmanns" has been hugely misunderstood/overblown by the press. The whole point made by Arendt in her discussion of Eichmann was that he was a normal man doing things within a system to the best of his ability. That system was, tragically, the movement of jews from occupied territories to death camps. Eichmann was very good at his job. I would venture a guess that the professors point is not to directly connect WTC victims to nazism (although by using the Eichmann phrase he is obviously opening himself up to that interpretation) but is instead comparing them as workers in what he sees as an unjust and tragic system- american empirism/capitalism/whatever.

The subtitle on Arendt's book was "the banality of evil." If we hold the supposition that american empirism/blahblahblah is evil, then the comparison of WTC workers (who are only doing their jobs, albeit within his supposed "evilness"), the comparison of banality and normalness within a evil establishment holds true. While the supposition is not one I agree with, I can understand the point of using the normal, boring Eichmann as an example.

Of course, his "combat teams" and other stuff is kind of off the deep end... he might be a tad bit caught up in the moment and seemingly unable to return to a place of reasonable discussion.

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Post by Mort »

If he was in the private sector, fine... but he is payed by tax payer dollars and I think he should be fired immediately.


Just MHO, Flame away.....
Last edited by Mort on February 10, 2005, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voronwë »

hehe the guy is nuts.

however that being said, the tenure system exists to protect politically unpopular speech. And while this guy's discourse probably isnt going to be a source of important counter-propaganda, setting a precident to fire him would be bad for the system.

While i was a grad student at UNC-Wilmington, a female professor at NC State was fired (she had not quite earned tenure)...

BECAUSE SHE WAS A WOMAN*

.... she was fired (or at least almost fired...it has been awhile) because she published findings that suggested that Hog Farms in Eastern Norht Carolina were seriously threatening the water quality in Eastern NC which was leading to health problems for the many people who made their living on the rivers (fishermen, guides, etc).

Because hog farming is such a huge contributor to the local politicians, they dont give a fuck if poor country folks are adversely impacted by tons of raw sewage (hog farms produce the same amount of sewage as small cities) leaking into rivers and streams.

so anyway, a woman like that whose job is being threatened is a good example of why the tenure system is something that is in the best interest of the public at large.

Tenure is typically very difficult to earn, and crackpots like this guy are really a very small exception in modern academia. but they generate a lot of bad publicity!


* for Mid ;)
Last edited by Voronwë on February 10, 2005, 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Animalor »

The WTC was a bad example for his analogy.

Had he used the Pentagon attack, the Oklahoma Govt' building bombing or even the State Department employees, it would've been much more relevant.

I tend to believe that his aim was to be more sensationalistic than anything else and garner media attention to his essay and upcoming book. (Cause nothing sells books like a controversy)
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Post by Winnow »

Animale wrote:I believe he has tenure, which more or less means he is entitled to have unpopular opinions without fearing for his job.
We need this system on VV! I think Atokal missed the tenure cutoff by 2 days.
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Post by Nick »

I totally get his point but I think he expressed himself like a retard.
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Post by nobody »

there was a professor only months away from his tenure at the university of utah recently that got fired for saying the word fuck to a student. the context was..."what the fuck are those other professors teaching you!?" he immediatly recanted and appologized to the student for his choi\ce of words but was still fired. if this ASSHAT gets to keep his job but the prof from utah gets fired for slipping and saying fuck, then... well, i will do nothing i guess :(
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Post by Fash »

if he's teaching his students his crazy anti-american conspiracy theories which he has no evidence for, couldn't this be considered treason? he's spreading false propoganda to young people who respect his position... he must go.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Fash wrote:if he's teaching his students his crazy anti-american conspiracy theories which he has no evidence for, couldn't this be considered treason? he's spreading false propoganda to young people who respect his position... he must go.
Yup. You are dead on, imho.
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Post by Lynks »

I wouldn't say treason, treason would be him giving information to the enemy. But seriously, call down, not everyone who speaks ill about the US is the enemy.

PS, this teacher is a douche
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Lynks wrote:I wouldn't say treason, treason would be him giving information to the enemy. But seriously, call down, not everyone who speaks ill about the US is the enemy.

PS, this teacher is a douche
treason

n 1: a crime that undermines the offender's government [syn: high treason, lese majesty] 2: disloyalty by virtue of subversive behavior [syn: subversiveness, traitorousness] 3: an act of deliberate betrayal [syn: treachery, betrayal, perfidy]
trea·son ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trzn)
n.
Violation of allegiance toward one's country or sovereign, especially the betrayal of one's country by waging war against it or by consciously and purposely acting to aid its enemies.
A betrayal of trust or confidence.
I'm kind of thinking "treason" is a fitting definition of what this piece of shit is doing.
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Post by Voronwë »

yes he is a classified enemy under Department A3.

We must investigate and combat "all tendencies dangerous to the state".

congratulations gentlemen, your local Gestapoleitstellen will be keeping a favorable eye on you, rest assured.

but satire aside, you must be aware of a difference between "dissent" and "treason".
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Post by miir »

How the fuck can you equate a personal opinion to to treason.
Where the fuck are the supposed 'conspiracy theories?
How is it propaganda?



Do you even know what he said and what comparisons he made?


I guess not.



Idiots.
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Post by Lynks »

1. The trade centers are not governments.

2. How did he betray the US to their enemies?


This is just snother thread were you are OVERREACTING.
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Post by Kargyle »

I bet yall didn't even come up come up with the treason claim on your own. That retard Michael Savage was spewing the same garbage on his radio show yesterday afternoon.

*note
I sometimes listen to Michael Savage because he makes me laugh at what a retard he is. Then I listen to his callers and it makes me scared because there are people that actually think he's right.
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Post by Marbus »

Didn't it say he was an American Indian or allude to that point, heh might be the reson he is a little bitter... Don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with him at all and his wording is ridiculas. However in every extremist position there is usually some shred of truth... too bad I nor most people will ever take the time to find it from this guy because choose to go too far in making his point.

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Post by Alfan »

http://mustudent.muohio.edu/article.php ... =front&n=1
Four Republican Ohio senators have introduced an "academic bill of rights for higher education," claiming college minds are being indoctrinated by left-winged faculty.

The bill would require every state-supported college and university in Ohio to prohibit instructors and faculty members from introducing into the classroom controversial matter and coursework that has no relation to the class’s subject of study. It also calls for universities to hire, fire and promote faculty based on professors’ knowledge of their field and not on their political views.
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Post by miir »

Has anyone who has posted on this thread actually read what he originally wrote IN CONTEXT in an essay he wrote almost three and a half years ago?


What he said makes perfect sense IN CONTEXT, but you stupid fucks would rather cry treason than make an attempt to understand what was written and why he wrote it.
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Post by Fash »

I wasn't being serious... and I haven't read his essay... that is all.
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Post by Brotha »

If he had said a prayer in class his ass would be gone by now...

I support academic freedom, I just think he should be fired for being a retard.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by miir »

Dude, it's really quite obvious that you have no fucking clue what was written in conext.

Keep posting though, it's funny watching you make an idiot out of yourself.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

miir wrote:Dude, it's really quite obvious that you have no fucking clue what was written in conext.

Keep posting though, it's funny watching you make an idiot out of yourself.

Here is the link http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html


I encourage every one to do as Miir says and read it. Then we can laugh at Miir for trying to portray this Michael Moore clone propagandist as something totally reasonable when "read in context" ROFL

Jesus Miir. Did YOU read it?

Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire – the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved – and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" – a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" – counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in – and in many cases excelling at – it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it.
lol

Seriously read that...
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Post by miir »

Taken in context of an individual trying to understand the reasons and the motivation behind the Sept 11 attacks it makes perfect sense. He was, in essence, presenting a possible viewpoint of of the terrorists.


You may feel comfortable only seeing things the way your government tell you how to see them but others like to try to understand things by exploring and investigating different viewpoints.

Does that make me a moron or an idiot?
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Post by masteen »

His logic leads me to conclude that we should kill all the poor people in the world before they kill us.
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Post by miir »

Regardless if you agree or disagree with his opinions, they are certainly food for thought... and definately not grounds for 'treason'.
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Post by Fash »

miir wrote:Does that make me a moron or an idiot?
well if these are my only two options...
:D
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Post by miir »

Fash wrote:
miir wrote:Does that make me a moron or an idiot?
well if these are my only two options...
:D
:snipersmile: :D
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Post by Brotha »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Then we can laugh at Miir for trying to portray this Michael Moore clone propagandist as something totally reasonable when "read in context" ROFL
This guy is so far out there he makes Michael Moore look like a neocon...
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by Rekaar. »

Brotha wrote:If he had said a prayer in class his ass would be gone by now...

I support academic freedom, I just think he should be fired for being a retard.
so true
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Post by Marbus »

Do I think his fell off his rocker? probably so but while his theory is disgusting to most go back to my previous post about some shed of truth.

The paragraph Midnyte posted definitely proves my point if read in context as Miir said. Does anyone really believe that some other people in the world don't suffer because we in America have so much? If you do then you need to get a does of reality. Everything is give and take, someone takes and someone else has to give. Has anyone read some of the declassified information on what we did to numerous countries in the 50s to "stop communism?" It's a nightmare, hell take Iran for instance, we probably wouldn't be worried about Nukes NOR would there have been hostages taken in 1979 if we haddn't put up a AND supported a dictator just as bad, if not worse, than Saddam Hussien. That' NOT my opinion, that is documented FACT. The Shah had death squads that made the KGB look like boy scouts... all done primarily with good ole' American dollars...

Now does that in ANY way give someone the right to kill people? Hell NO, I don't buy in to the eye for an eye crap, that passed relavence about 2000 years ago IMHO. Do I believe that people who are participating in our democracy and capitalism are in some way to blame for trying to feed their families, NO, the exact opposite. Unlike what this guy is trying to put forth they were innocents, the purpitrators are murders and pretty much define the word "terrorist."

However I'm a people watcher and a lover of history and psychology. I want to try to understand WHY people felt like they had to go out of their way to kill thousands of innocent civilians. What could push people to that point? Religion? that's the 2 cent answer, it's more than that. Suffering, wheither real or percieved is what pushs these people to extremist actions. Are some of the actions of this country at least partially to blame for some of those people being in the situation they are in? I'm not fool enough to believe otherwise...

I don't agree with him nor do I really even see his point... but I can at least see, I think, what he might have been trying to say. The problem is, even if he was trying to say that in order to help Americans better understand why some people hate us so much, he did a damn piss poor job at it which IMHO is disgusting for a department char of a college. He should be able to put his thoughts together better than we can on a freakin' message board... if he should be fired, that's probably a valid reason right there.

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Post by Sueven »

After checking out his webpage and that essay, I realized that I've actually read one of his books before (Agents of Repression).

In Agents of Repression, he attempts to prove the basic thesis that the FBI is not a crimefighting unit but an agency designed to stifle and repress political dissent, and has been working toward these aims since it's inception. It's a very difficult thesis to prove, but he does an admirable job defending it.

In this case, his arguments are being blown way out of proportion. I'd never read the essay before now, but the media references to this guy as "the professor who compared WTC victims to nazi's" is certainly misleading. He chose to reference 'combat teams' in order to highlight a worldview that we generally aren't exposed to.

Churchill does say some things that are undeniably accurate. For instance...
Nor were they "fanatics" devoted to "Islamic fundamentalism."

One might rightly describe their actions as "desperate." Feelings of desperation, however, are a perfectly reasonable – one is tempted to say "normal" – emotional response among persons confronted by the mass murder of their children, particularly when it appears that nobody else really gives a damn (ask a Jewish survivor about this one, or, even more poignantly, for all the attention paid them, a Gypsy).

That desperate circumstances generate desperate responses is no mysterious or irrational principle, of the sort motivating fanatics. Less is it one peculiar to Islam. Indeed, even the FBI's investigative reports on the combat teams' activities during the months leading up to September 11 make it clear that the members were not fundamentalist Muslims. Rather, it's pretty obvious at this point that they were secular activists – soldiers, really – who, while undoubtedly enjoying cordial relations with the clerics of their countries, were motivated far more by the grisly realities of the U.S. war against them than by a set of religious beliefs.
This is basically true. When we blame the attacks on "Islamic fundamentalism" and laugh about the sheer absurdity of dying in the hopes of 72 virgins we do ourselves a disservice by reducing the conflict to something much more simple than it is. In reality, violent Islamic movements have arisen because of a complex variety of economic, social, and political factors. While we may disagree with Churchill's characterization of "the U.S. war against them," we can certainly say that an Islamic terrorist is more likely to think of himself as a soldier fighting back against the oppression of Western imperialism than he is to think of himself as a religious nutcase bound for martyrdom.

In predicting and explaining the character of these conflicts-- the primary job of a political scientist-- it is important to understand the mentality of the participants. Conflicts often arise partially because of issues of group image and group identity. Participants have a set of expectations and beliefs about themselves and their enemies that may not necessarily accord with reality. The fact that these images are not wholly accurate does not undermine their importance in creating, sustaining, or eliminating violent behavior. As such, studying them is extremely important in order to reduce violence now and prevent it in the future.

This man has clearly gone beyond academic objectivity and begun to present events from the perspective of the middle east. He is, however, providing a semiaccurate account of the actual motivations of one of the actors in this conflict (a generalized account of the motivations of assorted militant Islamists). Furthermore, he is closer to being objective than many pro-American academics are-- it just so happens that he's on the other side. He has no obligation to consent to the actions of his government, and should have none, whether the taxpayers are paying him or not.

It is easy to overreact to him because of his crude and insulting language regarding the United States. He makes the mistake of taking the problems created by the modern international system and attributing them directly and personally to politicians in the United States. The important thing to keep in mind is that many commentators make the same generalizations and use similar language regarding the Middle East, and these commentators do not describe the Middle East any more accurately than Churchill describes the United States. Furthermore, the world view he presents is a world view that a great many people share, and these people are taking actions that have greatly affected our country. To refuse to recognize the fact that this world view exists has reached beyond stupidity and near suicide.
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Post by Mak »

I don't think he's committed treason. (You might be able to make a case for sedition :) , but certainly treason is going overboard.)

However, I don't think tenure should necessarily be a carte-blanche ticket to say or do whatever you choose to do without fear of recrimination. He has placed the University in a very bad position. He's not publishing scientific findings on the verifiable effects of pig shit on the environment- he's publishing what could be considered propaganda based on his personal opinion and the University has every right to protect itself from that extreme opinion.

Does Chidoro deserve to die? He's a part of the vast US financial machine- he's one of the little Eichmann's that Ward talking about. Taking it further- Voro, you're a part of the "Jew-owned" US media that spews "US propoganda" to the entire world. Do you deserve to die because of it? If a terrorist blew up CNN Center (or whatever building you work in) would that be ok? Would your wife accept that you were no different than one of the most despicable Nazis ever and thus deserved to suffer whatever some Islamic fundamentalist decided to do to you?

Who here thinks it's ok to be killed because of where you happen to go to work or who you work for? (If you work for the Army or the CIA, fine- but other than that?)

Churchill may have a foundation of acceptable theory in regards to why other people in the world might hate the US and it's financial base. That's fine. But to take it one step further and to say that anyone that works for that finincial base is somehow deserving death is patently absurd. Midnyte is blasted for holding all Muslims accountable for the actions of some- Ward is doing the very same thing and he's being praised?
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Post by miir »

Midnyte is blasted for holding all Muslims accountable for the actions of some- Ward is doing the very same thing and he's being praised?
Because trying to understand the motives for doing something like attacking the US is far more thought provoking than saying 'fuck muslims'.
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Post by Chmee »

The treason thing is silly, he has the right to say what he wants. I also have the right to disagree strongly with his statement (which I do).
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Post by Boogahz »

How the hell is his work thought provoking? I thought I was reading something from a 15 year old with a decent vocabulary. I think some of what's been said about him has been overblown, but there is no way I would support him in anything. He can talk all he wants, and the only thing that brought any of this up was his upcoming visit to Hamilton College where family members of the "little Eichmanns" he was talking about. His story came out originally a couple years ago, but it wasn't that big at the time. That could at least partially be due to the difference in audiences.
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Post by Sueven »

That particular essay wasn't. I imagine that the book might be arranged in a more sensible fashion. A bunch of his other work is certainly thought provoking.
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Post by Animalor »

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=2739

I though Ward's Jan 31st reply to his whole controvery was facinating
The link above also contains the whole essay.

Did you know that Ward Churchill was a veteran? The man probably has more life experience than all of us here combined. This essay are his views on the subject of the 9/11 attack and I think people should lay the fuck off.

He should write a dumbed down version of his essay. When the average 12-yo will understand it, then it'll be ready to read by the general masses.
* This is not to say that I advocate violence; as a U.S. soldier in Vietnam I witnessed and participated in more violence than I ever wish to see. What I am saying is that if we want an end to violence, especially that perpetrated against civilians, we must take the responsibility for halting the slaughter perpetrated by the United States around the world. My feelings are reflected in Dr. King's April 1967 Riverside speech, where, when asked about the wave of urban rebellions in U.S. cities, he said, "I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed . . . without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today — my own government."
I would really like to see people here thanking him for his service.
* Finally, I have never characterized all the September 11 victims as "Nazis." What I said was that the "technocrats of empire" working in the World Trade Center were the equivalent of "little Eichmanns." Adolf Eichmann was not charged with direct killing but with ensuring the smooth running of the infrastructure that enabled the Nazi genocide. Similarly, German industrialists were legitimately targeted by the Allies.
There are two side to every story. I find it funny that even the conservatives on this board that decry the "liberal media" swallowed this up like sheep and were ready to crucify the "traitor indjun".
* It is not disputed that the Pentagon was a military target, or that a CIA office was situated in the World Trade Center. Following the logic by which U.S. Defense Department spokespersons have consistently sought to justify target selection in places like Baghdad, this placement of an element of the American "command and control infrastructure" in an ostensibly civilian facility converted the Trade Center itself into a "legitimate" target. Again following U.S. military doctrine, as announced in briefing after briefing, those who did not work for the CIA but were nonetheless killed in the attack amounted to no more than "collateral damage." If the U.S. public is prepared to accept these "standards" when the are routinely applied to other people, they should be not be surprised when the same standards are applied to them.
I'll leave it up to this for now...
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Post by Voronwë »

Mak, i dont agree with what he says. So i'm not sure why you think that I think that persons employed by my company being killed by Islamists (and they have been) would be somethign I would endorse.

At any rate, one thing that I thought was interesting in an interview I heard with a member of the Univ of Colorado Board of Regeants last night.

Basically, as many people have stated here on this thread, the man is within his first amendment rights.

THe Board of Regeants believes that to be the case, and they believe the Supreme Court would also find that to be the case. The Gov. of Colorado is threatening their funding (the Univ) if they don't fire them. The Boardmember is basically like this:

how much sense does it make for Univ of Colorado to fire this guy, then pay the court costs of him sueing us. Then pay the lost income to him after he wins his case, and other damages. Moreover, members of the board of regeants would be personally liable and this guy could sue them directly.

So the guy was like, "if we fire this guy, he could be living in my house once the dust settles".


He also said he thought the Gov was blustering about it so much because since 99% of the people think the professor is an asshole, it is a great time to get some political publicity for himself (the governor).
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Post by Brotha »

Animalor wrote:I would really like to see people here thanking him for his service.
After seeing him lie about his American-Indian roots, call me crazy if I doubt that he ever saw combat in Vietnam...

However you want to look at it, his ideas are way out there. I have a hard time even taking them seriously.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by Brotha »

Just looked this up, quite funny.

http://americandigest.org/mt-archives/005070.php
Ward Churchill's 1980 Resume in which he asserts he is "Creek/Cherokee (unenrolled)."
We also learn he claims to hold a 'Master of Arts degree in Cross-Cultural Communication from Sagamon State.

He notes he is married to "Dora-Lee Larson, 30 year old Santee"

The resume states Chruchill served in Vietnam in 1968 as a "Public Information Specialist" writing battalion reports and press releases among other things.

But an interesting passage in this ICC document cites a 1991 resume in which Churchill "indicates he is Airborne/Recondo trained with multiple decorations" during the same tour of duty.
Also:

http://www.aics.org/AIMGGC/press110399.html
Churchill’s book, Agents of Repression, page 438, item 49 that reads:


Churchill further states that he served in Vietnam as an Information Specialist.
Yeah, I'm sure he "witnessed and participated in more violence" than he ever wished to see writing those reports...what a fucking joke, just like his essays.

And before you accuse me of anything, I do think he should be saluted for his service in Vietnam, but he clearly mischaracterized it...
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by miir »

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Telling a few white lies does not forefeit your first amendment rights.
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Post by Fash »

it just forfeits your credibility.
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Post by miir »

What the fuck does credibility have to do with freedom of speech?
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Post by Brotha »

Where did I say he shouldn't have freedom of speech because he's a liar?

In honor of Ward Churchill I've adopted a new sig...
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Post by miir »

Brotha wrote:Where did I say he shouldn't have freedom of speech because he's a liar?
*boggle*

That was the whole point of the thread.
His credibility and honesty have as much bearing on the issue as his shoe size or sexual preference.
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Post by Fash »

miir wrote:What the fuck does credibility have to do with freedom of speech?
nothing at all...
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Post by Brotha »

miir wrote:That was the whole point of the thread.
I wasn't the one who brought up his military service...

And if we're nitpicking, whether his ideas make any sense or not has nothing to do with free speech.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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