Derailed on first post! Vague question to follow....

[Nick]

Ok, having watched more than my fair share of Bush speeches, I find it frankly mind boggling how the man can twist every issue to some preplanned shitty rhetoric about the greatness of the US, or freedom or whatever other new catchphrase he has been ordered to vomit out.

Do people actually think that when he is saying this he is being sincere? Really? I just cannot understand how he gets away with it without being smacked in the face by people sick of his smug pious bullshit. Aren't you meant to be a proud country?

Now of course I am European so by some will be ignored due to their intrinsic racism (grats brains) so for those people I give a hearty fuck you in advance

Having read book after book on this fiasco we call the U.S government I can understand how the fundamentalist ultra conservative right has managed to manipulate the masses with their snazzy door to doors and well funded magazines/newspapers/tv shows and well planned indoctrination effect etc but really, Bush just takes the piss with how badly he pulls this off.

I do not think I have ever seen him say anything of substance, just waxing lyrical about freedom/democracy/terror (the old love/fear routine, nice to see most people have the intuition of a gnat).

I can understand you wanting to believe him, but actually believing him? Surely that is (SURELY!?!?!?!!) reserved for the mentally absent.

So I guess I am asking, if you do in fact believe Bush, can you not see this smug demeanour and shallow speech I speak of?

Typical Bush statement: (example)
;This country was founded on honour, freedom, justice and democracy and I sure as hell will fight for that and try and show other countries how to be just like us, fair and free.'

When of course a country cannot be founded on honour, given that that does not make sense. When freedom is (not so) slowly being eroded by an endless march of ultra conservative bible thumping neanderthals not to mention the fear tactics used by your own government to try and control you (such as teh green alert and red alert and all that shit)
Justice is nowhere to be seen for many who aren't middle class whites (not to mention Guantanamo, constant "terror" cells being arrested wrongly then let go quietly when the media go away).

Then, 'gently nudging' countries in the direction of democracy. Which means invading thier country and forcing your attitude on people because where they live is convenient for a lot of reasons. Making its future government another bed buddy like the Isreali's. Not to mention the thousands of INNOCENT people killed in the name of JUSTICE.

USA country of freedom! Takes peoples freedom to live away because they either cannot train their soldiers well enough or their soldiers are inherently stupid.

Of course the US claims it will give Iraq back, but really, who here is under any illusions that Iraq will be REALLY independant from the US when the troops leave? Iraq will still belong to the US, that is why you really went in. They will have power there that will allow it to bully the middle east and keep power in a region of men who rightfully want to end it's existence. (Rightly in their minds, IE as rightly as someone in the US wants to sort out Iraq 'for the better')

So again, Is Bush just trying to placate the extremely moronic in these speeches, or do intelligent people actually fail to see through this sycophantic display of nation masturbation?

If someone replies it is to give people optimism/spirit, what the fuck type of person/inbred has a raised spirit after that?

I guess this is a question for all of you, do you notice it and ignore it, do you notice it and hate it, or do you not even notice it?

Edit: By the way, the reason I posted this is simply because I think he is totally transparant, and also one of the most ugly looking creatures I have had to the misfortune to view with my eyes.

It isn't just OMG AMERICA SUCKS! Hell I am sure America is great craic.

Although American foreign policy pushes the broad elasticity of even the term suck to new and exciting depths!

[Cartalas]

/Kicks the soap box out from underneath the Leprechaun.

[Aruman]

Shorty had too much Guinness again... (spelled it right this time! I think...)

[nobody]

what is too much guinness? is that like too much Hefeweizen? please explain, i am confused

[Sueven]

I will make an attempt at an explanation:

Yes, Bush's speeches are total shit filled with vague generalities and statements of nothing.

However, while I disagree with about 3/4 of the neoconservative agenda, there is actually intelligent thought, discussion, and philosophy that has gone into the creation of this administrations policy. The policy as a whole is relatively coherent and sensible, although there certainly are a plethora of sensible arguments to make against it.

When Bush gives a speech, he does not discuss his policy. He discusses, as you noted, generalities and ideological concepts. This keeps the actual specifics of his policy out of the public eye, and ensures that a great deal of public scrutiny will be focused elsewhere. His speeches serve to promote the philosophical goals of his policy, not to provide any sort of detailed policy outline.

One of the biggest reasons why liberals have so little success arguing against this administration is because they are constantly arguing about and against what Bush says instead of arguing about and against what the administration does and what it's goals are.

Almost everything Bush says is a distraction. It's a secretive administration. They prefer to discuss their policy in private and provide straw men for the public and the media to debate. It is because the public and the media has so consistently chosen to take these straw men and run with them that they have been so successful.

Even you Teeny, criticizing the administration this way, are playing into their hands. Instead of criticizing how they rose to power and the vague throwaway speeches that Bush gives, you would be better served criticizing the concrete actions and policies of the Bush administration. Furthermore, saying "the Iraq war is illegal and repressive!" doesn't help. Saying "The Iraq was is unsuccessful and undermines the security of the United States and the world community as a whole" is a reasonable argument, because it actually deals with the issue at hand.

I often support the Bush administration philosophically in their aims. I think that they've quite incompetent when it comes to applying and enforcing their policies, and that this is where true criticism of Bush should be directed, not at his poor speaking ability or any other similarly worthless critiques.

[Sionistic]

why not just call teeny a tool and get it over with

[Sueven]

Because that's pointless and retarded.

[Nick]

Sionistic,
Glad you could remove your head from your ass long enough to post that massively useful and totally non retarded statement.

Glad to see you have the mental ability to do anything than wank off your own INTERWEB EGO!

Irrelevant fuckwit that you are.

On topic, hehe Sueven I understand what your saying totally, I was actually wondering whether people actually believed what he said, given how badly and cheesily he delivers it.

I am fully aware that the administration is not just a bunch of farmers from Kansas with vague ideas like WAR IS GOOD or ABORTION IS BAD.
I just wonder how they managed to get away with having the most inept looking and sounding figurehead possibly in the history of the planet.

I am talking about the rhetoric specifically, does anyone actually buy this? I am fully aware there are behind the scenes decisions and plans and all the rest (many more people involved than just Bush in deciding the country's development) , but I am not talking about that, I am asking if you buy his feelgood bullshit. His smarmy 'USA!' rants.

Do they fly? Or do you see how retarded they look?

Now I know for some of you peabrained imbeciles (cart etc) I am essentially committing blasphemy here by insulting your current deity but of course if you had the intellectual ability to READ the post you would understand it is more of an actual question than just a rant, perhaps you could reply without wasting my time with your UNFUNNY retorts.

Or at least fucking try and be funny, then you won't look as retarded as Sionistic.

[Moonwynd]

Teeny wrote:

I can understand how the fundamentalist ultra conservative right has managed to manipulate the masses with their snazzy door to doors and well funded magazines/newspapers/tv shows

I am fairly certain that the progressive left has the market on well funded media outlets. Even I, who am a conservative, do not listen to people like Rush Limbaugh...he is as much a tool as any of the biased media.

Teeny also wrote:

Now of course I am European so by some will be ignored due to their intrinsic racism (grats brains) so for those people I give a hearty fuck you in advance

Followed a wee bit later by:

I am fully aware that the administration is not just a bunch of farmers from Kansas with vague ideas like WAR IS GOOD or ABORTION IS BAD

First of all, you are guilty of prejudice and stereotyping. Most people in the state of Kansas are concentrated in the urban population centers, Wichita, Topeka, Kansas City and the like. The portion of the state that is used for farming (which is a large portion of the landmass of the state) is done so by large co-ops which make up a minute percentage of the population.

Not to mention that there is a healthy progressive movement (much to my chagrin) in the urban centers. Yes, there are urban centers in Kansas. I was born and raised in Scotland....but have been living in Kansas for nearly 8 years. I live in a city without farmers...we have gangs...homeless people...large corporate industry (Boeing, Raytheon, LearJet, Cessna)...not all things to be proud of..of course.

I think the better choice for you Teeny would have been to substitute "Nebraska" instead. Let's take a look see...

I am fully aware that the administration is not just a bunch of farmers from Nebraska with vague ideas like WAR IS GOOD or ABORTION IS BAD

See, doesn't that sound better? It really drives the point home when you use the correct group of people to illustrate your point!

As for the crux of your post...

I think President Bush is a lousy public speaker. I do not think he is a stupid man...I just think that he should be doing a Milli Vanilli and lip syncing pre-recorded speeches....because every time he speaks I cry like a tiny bunny caught in a trap...it's that painful some days.

I think Bush's greatest downfall is that he runs the presidency like a locked down top secret corporation. The truth is rarely shared with the people. Now keep in mind...that is not a bad thing in and of itself. The truth scares people...most people do not want to know the truth. Just like a parent doesn't tell their child everything...I do not think the president (any president) needs to tell the people everything. The problem with Bush is that he was never able to hide the truth completely from the people...and now he looks like he is covering up something....be it true or not.

I truly believe that Bush feels that nation building and the spreading of Democracy is his calling and his legacy. I know Iraq is a mess at the moment. So was Germany post WW2...for many years. But this is not Germany..this is not the 1940's and 50's. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree on the reasons for this war...if you are on the side that says Bush did it for his father/oil/business/etc....or if you say he had flawed intelligence/information about WMDs. The US and friends are at war in Iraq....that is reality. Pulling out now would leave such a vacuum of power to be exploited by someone far worse that Saddam Hussein or even Osama Bin Laden...it could have the potential to make the problems we see in the Suni Triangle today look like a walk in the park.

So Teeny, I hate to say this...but I agree with you that Bush's speeches suck and lack substance. There is a lot of rhetoric and a lot of the same "freedom...democracy...yada yada" talk going on. I do not think that the majority of the people here in America are backwoods dumbfucks that just feed on the pap of those speeches. But I do think that people have their core beliefs and just accept the man (Bush) and his speaking style for what it is...simple and to the point...not much substance.

I wish that Bush could speak better...perhaps it would do wonders to improve our image here and abroad. I wish he did not sound like a simpleton...for he is not. But wishing does nothing.....if wishes and buts were candy and nuts..we'd all have a Merry Christmas.

[Nick]

I agree with you Moon, if Bush was a better orator us outside the US would feel less annoyed at his inane lies.

I think you maybe misread or something, if you actually do a background check on Kansas you will notice yourself there has been a huge ultra conservative movement gaining momentum for years now.
Mainly since you know Boeing and the meat factories decided to fuck all their employees, leaving a stagnant state and much anger within the common people.

There are parts of Kansas not like this, some moderate republican areas and some democratic, but also a disturbing rise in fascist levels of conservativism.
Check out "Whats wrong with the the US - Thomas Frank"

So I think I will stick with Kansas, since it is as good a place as any, and fits the bills accurately.

I also cannot agree with this "liberal" media nonsense. It's just a convenient bandwagon. US news shows that I see daily are FAR from liberal, they are filled with pro government lies and spin that would make even the most conservative European weep.

[Adex_Xeda]

There was a time when I was so disgusted with Clinton, that even when he pushed for a good idea, I didn't hear it.

Likewise with you guys, if you really want to understand, you have to come to the situation of listening, unblinded by previous bias.

The conservative viewpoint is reasonable and not some big boogy man that parts of our media claim.

The reason that people think the Bush administration is secretive is because Bush hired people that are loyal to him and don't go running to the press to leak every inside story like we've seen in past presidental administrations. People had grown used to leaky administrations. When Bush and the gang got in, the leaks stopped due to good hiring choices. Now you can interpret that Bush is schemeing behind the scenes trying to get away with something illegal, or you can step back and consider he's got himself a loyal crew.

Perspective is everything. There are lots of facts in this world, and we all take those facts and interpret them according to our own lenses and biases.

If you look at the world through too tight a lense or bias, you become blind to how the very same facts you're looking at might be better interpreted as something else.

Teeny I wager, that this is why you just can't figure out why people support bush. And hey, I've been guilty of not stepping out of my personal bias as well at times. It's human nature.

[Nick]

Adex I can understand why people support Bush, I just think they are misinformed and misguided

That is based on facts such as Guantanamo Bay, Iraqgate and the lessening of freedoms in your country due to the imaginatively titled 'Patriot Act' which has wrongly imprisoned many faceless people for no good reason.

I see what Bush is aiming for, I do not think it is a realistic target in it's current attitudes and its disregard of the opinion of the very people you are trying to change.

[Sionistic]

Odd, you didnt call me a republican or conservative or anything. I guess you just skipped past the labels and went straight to name calling.

[Zaelath]

why not just call teeny a tool and get it over with

Odd, you didnt call me a republican or conservative or anything. I guess you just skipped past the labels and went straight to name calling.

Gratz the perfect example of why the whining bitch faction should just shut the hell up about "name calling" and "haters".

[Brotha]

That is based on facts such as Guantanamo Bay, Iraqgate and the lessening of freedoms in your country due to the imaginatively titled 'Patriot Act' which has wrongly imprisoned many faceless people for no good reason.

Personally I haven't had a single freedom "lessened" and I'm willing to bet there isn't a single person on this board who can say they have had their rights infringed upon. This idea that the US is some kind of fucking police state now is absolutely ridiculous and is yet another example of the hysterics of many on the left. I agree that the Patriot Act needs to be refined in some areas, but it has done a lot good and is definently needed.

The fact that you view using certain unconvential methods of interrogation (i.e. having a scantily clad woman do the questioning in order to unnerve the suspect) on hardcore jihadists who refuse to talk as some kind of damning indictment against the US says a lot more about your fucked up priorities than it does about ours.

[nobody]

ya i had to do a double take on that one, lol.

[Kelshara]

Personally I haven't had a single freedom "lessened" and I'm willing to bet there isn't a single person on this board who can say they have had their rights infringed upon.

Actually I have, as have a lot of other international students heh.

The fact that you view using certain unconvential methods of interrogation (i.e. having a scantily clad woman do the questioning in order to unnerve the suspect) on hardcore jihadists who refuse to talk as some kind of damning indictment against the US says a lot more about your fucked up priorities than it does about ours.

Disagree. The fact that a tough-talking kid like yourself (who bragged all about signing up then wussed out most likely.. or got rejected perhaps? Would fit in perfectly) defends it so strongly says a lot. You are as brainwashed as the muslims who sign up as suicide bombers. Different way, but just as brainwashed.

[Rekaar.]

Teeny you have such passion. If only you could focus it into something useful.

[Brotha]

Actually I have, as have a lot of other international students heh.

What freedom have you had lessened due to the Patriot Act?

Disagree. The fact that a tough-talking kid like yourself (who bragged all about signing up then wussed out most likely.. or got rejected perhaps? Would fit in perfectly) defends it so strongly says a lot. You are as brainwashed as the muslims who sign up as suicide bombers. Different way, but just as brainwashed.

So because I say certain unconventional methods should be used, such as using women in thongs and short skirts to question certain detainees where other methods have failed, I'm as brainwashed as a Muslim suicide bomber? Are you fucking insane? I know I've said this a million times, but it's not exactly a wonder why liberals aren't trusted with our security or even taken seriously for that matter. And keep fishing about my personal life, really strong way to make an argument.

[nobody]

Personally I haven't had a single freedom "lessened" and I'm willing to bet there isn't a single person on this board who can say they have had their rights infringed upon.

Actually I have, as have a lot of other international students heh.

um, there's a difference between rights and privileges. the US didn't take that privilege away from you, the terrorists who took advantage of the system did.

[Sionistic]

why not just call teeny a tool and get it over with

Odd, you didnt call me a republican or conservative or anything. I guess you just skipped past the labels and went straight to name calling.

Gratz the perfect example of why the whining bitch faction should just shut the hell up about "name calling" and "haters".

I never said i was above name calling

[Cartalas]

why not just call teeny a tool and get it over with

Teeny's Real name is " Stanley Craftsman"