Teh Climate Change

[Nick]

OK, so in the UK here we had the worst storm for 10 years (or so) last night. A few people died and trees/pylons etc are down all over the North of the British Isles (and Ireland). Not to mention heavy flooding over the Northern end of the Isles that are having a relatively severe effect.

We also have the insanity of California where something like a year and a halfs rain has fallen in two weeks.

Add this to the horrific heatwaves of 2003 in Europe, the massive hurricanes that repeatedly hit the South of the US in 2004, rising sea levels, melting ice caps, increased CO2 emmission since the Industrial revolution, not to mention that the last 10 years have been like the hottest 10 ever recorded (or something equally terrifying).

I am aware of a situation where if we increase carbon emmissions over a certain level, we essentially will put ourselves into a state of irreversible climate change, IE the Earth will heat and heat and heat and heat until we are all ...well....fucked.

(If you can imagine, the world will look like SRO omg!)

Apparantly we are expected to hit this level (although this is an estimate) between the next 10 and 30 years. What we going to do about it?
We have seen the rise of alternative forms of energy production in solar power, wave, wind turbines etc but none of those can essentially cover our energy output on their own, and definately not in this short space of time before we hit irriversible levels........(assuming everyone remains so damned apathetic of course)

So what do we do? Especially considering we have 2 countries with over a billion people in each of them (China and India) on the verge of accelerating into the high polluting elite of the Western World. (Although I think China is already the 2nd largest carbon emmiter already If I am not mistaken)

Solar power, wind power, normal coal or oil or gas, or even Nuclear? Which do you think will be the one to save us.

I watched a pretty interesting show last night where the guy (Marcel Theroux I think his name is) made a pretty strong argument for Nuclear power. Given the short time we have to save us from this irreversible state of change (Which we can already see hitting us massively ALREADY) the benefit of Nuclear power is that it does not emit carbon into the atmosphere, the thing thats fucking us up (along with other aerosols and the like)
I am aware of the various radionucleides (sp?) emmited and the general Chernobyl fear......but frankly, 10 Chernobyls arent even going to dent the havoc that will be wreaked upon us with climate change (assuming our estimations are correct, which they pretty much have been so far, in fact, if anything our estimations have not been severe enough)

Now, we have a situation here folks, and I am interested in finding out as much as I can about it, and what others tend to think.

Do you believe that we face the biggest threat possibly ever to face mankind, or do you believe like the George Bush that the "green hysteria" is just a waste of everyones time?

Please don't be "LOL I WILL DRIVE MY SUV AND FUCK EVERYONE LOL" given that essentially, you may be killing your own children/grandchildren or at the least putting their lives at great risk, not to mention flooding most of the biggest cities on the planet, which does not make you cool.

Disagree, but with a valid point if you can, and not just some childish retarded comment (you know who you are Cartalas)

I am teh genuinely interested so thanks in advance for any info/links you have that may be of service to the discussion.

Edit: Check out your own level of CO2 emmision with this handy mcthingy - http://www.geic.or.jp/co2-cal/

Mine were 7.3176 kgC/day
2670.924 KgC/year

Not massively scientific or anything but interesting nonetheless.

[Animale]

Well, in order to meet the energy demands, we would have to build a nuclear reactor every month for the next ten years. (Saw a talk by Nathan Lewis a chemistry professor at CalTech that had all the number for this- a transcript of this talk is avalailable at http://www.its.caltech.edu/~mmrc/nsl/energy.html ).

While nuclear should probably be part of the solution, Lewis makes the point that the only energy source that has anywhere near enough energy potential to successfully meet our needs is solar. And not just solar panels for electricity, but a form of solar energy similar to what plants do- a way to turn solar energy into usable fuel (such as CO2+H20+solar energy imput -> methanol + oxygen). Such a system has yet to be realized, but we NEED to drastically increase the worldwide research effort in this area in order to solve it. As it is now, only a few groups in each country are working on it, which is quite frankly not anywhere near enough.

Another possibility is fusion, but that still remains just the realm of speculation and research (as does the "new" solar type power). Both areas need more funding, especially solar research, and need a renewed focus if we are to even remain at current levels of CO2 emmissions.

In short, we're majorly fucked if we don't start major research (in the multiple billions of dollar) into such alternative energy sources.

Animale

[Aabidano]

I'd like to see them ramp up nuclear while looking for alternatives. The coal\petrochemical based society we have now isn't the least bit sustainable. Despite overblown fears, nuclear power is quite safe, handled properly. The waste is an issue, but also something that can be somewhat negated by emerging technologies.

A true renewable energy source is the only real long term option, direct solar, wind, tide based or what have you.

I read an article where someone reffered to the current system(s) as "Burning our children's inheritance".

[Nick]

Holy shit Ani, one every month? We are teh screwed

One more thing, assuming a powerful entity like The US or the UN decided to take this seriously, what should be the penalty for countries that do not follow these protocols


.......This is not a Kyoto dig, Kyoto (the agreement not the place) is a steaming pile of shit as it stands anyway. Although personally it seems like the developed world is not taking this at all seriously, is it just me?

I personally think we should come down brutally on people that continue to avoid this issue for their own short term personal financial ends.

Bullet in the head brutally.....assuming they refuse to wise up.

[Cartalas]

Well I see it as we have no choice!! Change has to happen. We have noticed a real increase in freak storms but they do go in cycles. I mean shit how can you talk about Global Warming when its going to be -18 for the High on Friday I welcome Global Warming.

As a Society we do need to find a new way to create power the problem I see is that you cant please everyone. Solar Power and Wind power are both unreliable and the fear of atomic energy will always keep its potential down. With Fossil fuels everyone is happy they have their energy at any given time of the day but we all know this will run out.

The problem is us as individuals, Cities are installing Light Rail as we speak but are YOU or anyone else willing to ride them on a day to day basis? Are YOU willing to give that freedom up?

Automobiles are a status symbol as much as a means of transportation how do WE determine if we need a SUV? I mean one trip to the Hardware store driving a GEO Metro and you need 3 peices of 6'8' sheetrock makes you wonder. How do WE as a country try to tell other countries IE China to cut back on the Carbon emissions if we dont? I do think the United States is making a effort to control emmisions dont get me wrong but how do WE convey that to other countries.

So before you make a post about what WE or I should do think about what YOU are doing!!!

Is your thermostat set to a decent saving level?
Are YOU riding public transportation? Not once a week
Is your house Solar power? Or are you using Fossil fuel?

[Nick]

I am not attempting to degrade any one country Cart, we are ALL guilty of fucking our planet up.

Although to answer your question, I don't drive. Thermostat is used sparingly due to people not being in the house until certain hours. I think your trying to say that I contribute to the carbon emmissions, which of course I do, be it heating my house, watching tv, using this PC, taking a plane or whatever.

I don't remember claiming I didn't, I was attempting to see what can be done about for (OMG) everyones sake.

As far as I am aware the average person contributes about 10kg of carbon directly into the atmosphere per year (using the things I mentioned above). That is the british average.

Apparantly we need to have that down to like 2.5kg per person per year.

At least I think I think it's KiloGrams, I would cry if I was wrong and it was tonnes.

Maybe there is some online test to see where you yourself may sit in terms of average carbon usage. (Not a direct attack Cart! Thats to us all, again)

[Animalor]

The problem is only going to start resolving itself when individuals make changes in their lifestyles.

To this end, I submit to you the One-Ton Challenge.
It's a challenge sponsored by the Cdn. govt. to reduce green house gas emmission aimed primarily at canadians but it's comprised of lifestyle changes that everyone in industrialised countries can adapt. And none of the changes are very hard to do.

http://www.climatechange.gc.ca/onetonne/english/
http://eartheasy.com/article_canada_challenge.htm

[XunilTlatoani]

Personally, I think a shift towards biodiesel and ethanol blends is a good first step for automobiles at least. Many car manufacturers are already making flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) that can use either straight unleaded gas or an 85% ethanol fuel.

These vegetable based fuels would also boost our own agricultural economy and lessen our dependence on the middle east for crude oil (which are both plusses in my mind).

It's not a 100% fix, but it's a relatively small change to our current culture that I think can find great success in a short timeframe.

[Winnow]

Bring back Nuclear power in a big way as part of the solution. There have been other threads discussing the efficiency of the newer designs. New plants would be a big help.

Beyond that, we need to work on switching the corruption from oil to alternative fuel sources. As soon as the there's money to be had and oil becomes less attractive, we'll make some headway with other energy sources. There will always be corruption, we just need to redirect it.

[Nick]

Animalor, in an ideal world I agree with you, although I fear people frankly in the large scale will be and have been shown to be far too pig headed to ACTUALLY change their lifestyles.

Somewhat Machiavellian but I just don't think we can rely on that happening.

Vegetable powered cars is a great idea, I fucking hate cabbage, it may as well do something useful for a goddamn change.

Edit: I agree Winnow, we need to get those corrupt bastards onside, make use of them rather than the other way round, maybe we could bribe them with cake or pie.

[Akaran_D]

More nuke power, more research into other energy sources.
Once those objectives have begun, inflict harsher penalties on polluting industry and enact stiff jail times for non-compliance.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Bah...I already answered this in the other thread. I didn't see you had a seperate thread for this until after I responded.

I did not answer any of those poll questions.

My whole point in my answer on the other thread is, I don't presume to know anything we have done has caused the abnormalities in weather. I really can't presume to know this is an abnormality. This may be a very common occurence every 250 years. Since our knowledge only extends so far back, we wouldn't know. So making rash changes in anything we do would be foolish and inconsequencial.

[Seebs]

I blame The Nino

[Nick]

Midnyte Ragebringe

I don't have any. I find it weird how this winter has gone, but I also will not overreact and get all worried and listen to the doomsdayers. I prefer to leave things like this to the experts. I'm sure a few good Discovery Channels specials will cover this weird winter in the next few months. I also realize the planet we live on isn't a computer....it doesn't follow a code....it is completely volatile(sp?) and we have and will always be at it's mercy. Through our amazing progress every day in science and technology we will continue to learn ways we can sustain our planet and hopefully do everything we can to not be the cause of terrible mother nature events. (just my two cents)

Well there are arguments to suggest it is simply a matter of the Earths rotation, or the fact that sun is constantly heating.....but really at this point you can clearly see that even after all factors such as spin/sun/random variation there is still an increase overall of something 0.6 of a degree in the last 30 years that cannot be explained by these things.

Scientists (The majority) tend to contribute this to the rising Carbon levels, caused by humans.....

Now of course given that I did not live for the last 500000000 years I cannot tell you exactly whether this is just a natural variation but I can tell you that if it reaches a critical temperature increase there is no return.

That is something that is not doomsaying, more like .....um guys.....can we have a peek at this please, its a tad worrying.

I'm not dismissing you at all, this just my 2 cents also.

[Tenuvil]

Nuke plants (fission reactors) are an environmental time bomb. There are decommissioned plants in CT that are sealed off for indefinite time periods. In addition there's some evidence that the plant emitted enough radiation to significantly increase cancer rates in the surrounding area.

My question is, wtf ever happened to the prediction we'd have commercial fusion reactors by the mid 90s?

[Leonaerd]

Nuclear power has the potential to replace any other sources we use to gather energy, whether it be solar, or by use of windmills, etc. People are simply too scared to embrace such a destructive ally. Sure, a plant could malfunction and it would begin drilling itself into the ground, but the chances of that happening are so slim, that it's "never" happened.

Americans need to purchase fluorescent (sp) lightbulbs. If there were no Edisons hanging from our ceilings, America could safely get rid of one third of its power plants. One THIRD of all power plants in the entire nation. From a simple lightbulb.

[Akaran_D]

Don't LED lights produce a higher and longer lasting source of light than even fluorescent(sp) lightbulbs? To begin with, it'd make it easier for people who can't spell complicated words (two so far! hah!) and I think it'd cut down on eye strain from working in places where those bulbs are the only soruce of light (think: department stores and cubicle farms).

[Winnow]

White LEDs are slowly gaining some ground. LED has been creeping into our lives for quite awhile (notice the stoplights with the multiple LED lights, the auto break lights now LED)

Since LED lights run cool, last 10 X's as long and are 10 Xs as efficienct as older light technology, a cost effective white LED replacement for our home and business lighting needs would be huge. EMKR and CREE are two companies working on this. EMKR is allied with GE. (combo company called GEmcore)

I don't know what's taking so long. I was buying stock of these two companies back in 97 but in 2005, they're still not ready for prime time.

[Nick]

Tenuvil, what you say is true, sadly, that is not even comparable to how dangerous the current set up is.

Like a lesser of two evils thing.

However, if Animale is right, we need to really get cracking on building them. Think of it like a plaster over a cut. Eventually the plaster comes off.

However the plaster in this case has a half life of a quarter of a million years........an obstacle our species will probably not be around long enough to worry about. At the current rate of climate increase anyway.

I do agree that they are dangerous and cause cancer and fuck us up so that our fish have 3 eyes and we have 6 dongs (a bad thing?) but at the same time, a few hundred thousand cases of greenglow would be better for us than droughts/famines/storms/rising sea levels that could cause literally millions upon millions of deaths. :(

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The weather patterns are not caused just by what you are posting about. There has been some strong indications that weather patterns are seriously affected by the crop patterns of certain regions. Formalized agriculture across the world is hurting the environment in major ways. Hey...this is just another reason to eat meat!

[Akaran_D]

Teeny, stop and think for a second what you would do with six dongs.
1: carpal tunnel
2: dehydration
3: Finding pants that fit.
4: the contraption you would have to use to sucessfully pee from all 6 dongs at once into a toilet.
5: 6x the pain from a cathader
6: A decline in women interested in sleeping with you. Sure, it may still be good after the 3rd or 4th run (if your heart can last that long) but by the 6th, she's going to be in pain and won't want to do it on a semi regular basis.
7: An exponential increase in the price of bj's.
8: Kidney stones would be like a russion roulette of penis pain.
9: A severe lack of pants legs to shove the other 4 down when a pretty woman walks by and catches the eye of your tiger.
10: Potentially enough bush would result that would make even the most diehard conservitive republican consider using bikini wax.
11: Writing your name in the snow would take so long...
12: The price of condoms.
13: The price of antibiotic cream to apply when that last really, really hot girl you were with also had a really, really uncomfortable case of herpes.
14: The efforts the coroner would have to take to make sure you don't completely "stiffen up" at the viewing.

And last, but not least,
15: Which one would you grab first when watching porn?

[Nick]

Kilmoll, I see, i'll have a wee check on google for info.

Akaran, omfg.....haha!

[Aabidano]

This may be a very common occurence every 250 years.

That may well be correct, but it's beside the point as well. Oil is becoming harder and harder to find and extract, and will run out. Fossil fuel isn't an answer either. Regardless of possible climate changes, our current infrastructure isn't in the least bit sustainable even in the short term. The massive increase in petroleum use in SW Asia isn't going to help matters any either.

Cheaply exploitable supplies are estimated to run out in 15-20 years, if alternatives aren't available and in common use by that point all the developed and developing nations are in deep doodoo. A real oil embargo would completely cripple the US economy for instance.

"Green" power suplies aren't just something we need from an eviromental perspective. We've got no other realistic choice.

Just follow the money, as in all political issues that will show you the people responsible.

[Pherr the Dorf]

The weather patterns are not caused just by what you are posting about. There has been some strong indications that weather patterns are seriously affected by the crop patterns of certain regions. Formalized agriculture across the world is hurting the environment in major ways. Hey...this is just another reason to eat meat!

You realize that 80% of the grain grown goes to feeding animals for slaughter right?

[Animalor]

Just a clarification on the science here but when talking about fusion, is this the same thing as anti-matter/matter reactions?

CERN is already able to make anti-matter in very small quantities for scientific study so this type of commercial energy might be available, if not in our lifetime, then our children's lifetime or grand-children's lifetimes for sure.

[Nick]

Angels and Demons may actually happen

How could anti matter produce energy? That is a pretty excellent concept, would be amazing how this may become reality, without blowing up the entire planet

[Tenuvil]

Just a clarification on the science here but when talking about fusion, is this the same thing as anti-matter/matter reactions?

Nope. Fusion is the nuclear reaction that powers stars; when temperatures reach a critical point, two hydrogen atoms fuse to form a helium atom and energy. It does not require radioactive elements as fission does, but it does require an assload of energy to create the initial temperature to initiate the reaction. It also requires some means of containing the reaction.

Antimatter as far as I knew was theoretical. If they are producing it it's at the single subatomic particle level.

Teeny, the deal with antimatter is it's composed of the opposite subatomic particles as matter is. When matter and antimatter collide all particles are destroyed, and due to the law of conservation of mass-energy* an almost limitless amount of energy would be produced.

Where is Tarmor when I need him?

*There is a scientific law called the Law of Conservation of Mass, discovered by Antoine Lavoisier in 1785. In its most compact form, it states:

matter is neither created nor destroyed.

In 1842, Julius Robert Mayer discovered the Law of Conservation of Energy. In its most compact form, it it now called the First Law of Thermodynamics:

energy is neither created nor destroyed.

In 1907 (I think), Albert Einstein announced his discovery of the equation E = mc2 and, as a consequence, the two laws above were merged into the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy:

the total amount of mass and energy in the universe is constant.

Generally, textbooks would add, as I am doing, that mass and energy can interconvert.

[Animalor]

Angels and Demons may actually happen

How could anti matter produce energy? That is a pretty excellent concept, would be amazing how this may become reality, without blowing up the entire planet

I'm currently reading Angels and Demons. I just put it on hold for the moment to read Chainfire.

[Homercles]

Nope. Fusion is the nuclear reaction that powers stars; when temperatures reach a critical point, two hydrogen atoms fuse to form a helium atom and energy. It does not require radioactive elements as fission does, but it does require an assload of energy to create the initial temperature to initiate the reaction. It also requires some means of containing the reaction.

Didnt Dr Octo try this?

[Arborealus]

good stellar fusion primer...

http://www.glyphweb.com/esky/default.ht ... stars.html

and a explanation of the reaction sequences http://zebu.uoregon.edu/textbook/energygen.html

but it does require an assload of energy to create the initial temperature to initiate the reaction. It also requires some means of containing the reaction.

and an assload of fuel handy...its easy when the fuel produces sufficient gravity to contain the reaction...and of course the compression of the fuel by gravity results in sufficient energy to initiate the reaction...

[Atokal]

Some things must change long before there will be a solution.

Education: People have been hearing about global warming, and environmental apocolyses for decades now and have become de sensitized.

I fear that only catastrophes of a biblical / global nature will wake people up to the point that they actually take some kind of action on a grand scale.

http://www.gallup-international.com/Con ... nium11.asp

You will notice that the majority of people feel the efforts being made to clean up the environment is unsatisfactory. However those that feel a satisfactory amount is being done are very very close in percentage.

The change must be at a grass roots level world wide. It must be presented to the public in a way that shows you CAN make a difference. I know personally I have tried to make changes to help the environment but I still see neighbours who leave cars idling in the cold months for 20 minutes, people who refuse to recycle etc. Makes me wonder if someone is just negating my efforts.

I also feel that educating the public is on a par with alternative fuel sources in terms of importance. You cannot expect the public to boycott gasoline and other unrenewable resources while embracing new potentially more expensive energy unless there is an understood real and present danger.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

That Avatar rules Toker.

[Akaran_D]

'Rules' is not a snynonym for 'leathally stupid'.

[Fash]

'snynonym' and 'leathally' are not even words.

[Akaran_D]

I seriously hate the keyboards at my college. They stick so bad.. I honestly wonder what the guys in charge of the comp lab do when the students aren't around.


/has seen some of the geeks
/knows what he would do.

[Rekaar.]

Fuck you leprechaun boy I love destroying the planet, why dont you go box some potatoes...

man, how could I not pick that one =p

[Zaelath]

Some things must change long before there will be a solution.

Education: People have been hearing about global warming, and environmental apocolyses for decades now and have become de sensitized.

I fear that only catastrophes of a biblical / global nature will wake people up to the point that they actually take some kind of action on a grand scale.

http://www.gallup-international.com/Con ... nium11.asp

You will notice that the majority of people feel the efforts being made to clean up the environment is unsatisfactory. However those that feel a satisfactory amount is being done are very very close in percentage.

The change must be at a grass roots level world wide. It must be presented to the public in a way that shows you CAN make a difference. I know personally I have tried to make changes to help the environment but I still see neighbours who leave cars idling in the cold months for 20 minutes, people who refuse to recycle etc. Makes me wonder if someone is just negating my efforts.

I also feel that educating the public is on a par with alternative fuel sources in terms of importance. You cannot expect the public to boycott gasoline and other unrenewable resources while embracing new potentially more expensive energy unless there is an understood real and present danger.

That's what government is supposed to be for. They're supposed to force you and your retarded neighbours to accept difficult change for the good of the larger community.

Waiting for a biblical disaster to spring into action is like putting on a condom when you get your AIDS test back. If we don't do something soon, and significant, your kids or your grandkids are screwed.

Look on the bright side, when your children are cursing your memory for being short-sighted and selfish, you can rest comfortably knowing they'd have done the same thing.

[Chmee]

What should be done regarding global climate change?

Currently, nothing.

It is certainly worthwhile to continue to do research on the climate, although that will continue whether or not it is done specifically to address global warming. Likewise research into energy creation is likely to be beneficial, but also almost certain to continue anyway. It would be nice if the regulatory status regarding nuclear power generation were lightened such that building nuclear plants in the U.S was more feasible (although I don't hold much hope of that happening anytime soon).

But I don't think there is currently justification for pursuing any of them to a greater degree because of global warming at least with what we know now.

There are a number of elements to the global warming debater.

First, is warming occurring? It is fairly well accepted that there has been at least some warming during the last century. How much is a little harder to pin down. The ground station record shows the greatest amount of warming, but is also potentially the most susceptible to having error introduced through the urban heat island effect among other factors. The satellite record shows less warming. The satellite temperatures largely agree with measurements from weather balloons, but still there has been some back and forth debate about their numbers and at least one correction I can remember. Which is more correct, the ground record or the satellites? Its possible they both are, since they are measuring different things, the ground temp versus the temperature in the upper atmosphere. However most of the forecast models for global warming predict more, not less warming in the upper atmosphere.

Secondly, why is it warming? This is trickier. Although most would probably concede that human action may very likely be causing some warming, the premise that human action is causing most or even a significant amount of the warming is a matter of more debate. There are a lot of things that can affect climate and proxy records seem to indicate that the earth’s temperature has varied a fair amount in the past. Trying to establish how much the various potential factors are actually influencing the climate is tough.

Next, how warm will it get? There is probably even more debate about this. The models that predict the warming have been questioned, with some saying they don’t match up well when applied to historical data. If I remember correctly the predictions have been getting smaller with successive IPCC reports. And as mentioned before, the upper air masses don’t seem to be warming more as predicted in many of the models. As an aside, I haven’t seen any prediction as dire as the one in the first post of this thread, that within 10-30 years the warming is irreversible and will trigger a constant upward spiral.

Lastly, how bad will it get? There is also substantial debate on this. Some claim that it will be hugely detrimental to the ecology of the planet. Others say that it may not be negative at all. If the proxy records are correct, then the planet has been warmer in the past than it currently is without the cataclysmic effects predicted as possible in the future due to global warming. Some claim that we can't take the chance, but since many of the proposed fixes (particularly kyoto like suggestions) would likely have significant negative effects on overall human well being themselves, there is risk involved in adopting them as well.

I think question is currently far too open still to warrant any large-scale action to be taken at this time.

[Kelshara]

It really doesn't take that much for the average person to cut way down on his/her consumptions. New light bulbs (which save you money as well!), mass transportation, bothering to turn off some lights and maybe lower the temperature a degree or three. Minor things really will help out in the long run.

Oh, and recycle!

[Lynks]

or turning the heat off while sleeping. You only notice it in the morning but that just gives you motivation to do your shit fast before you go to work.

[Animale]

The main issue, in my mind (and that of Prof. Lewis), that most people gloss over in this conversation is that energy does not just equal electricity. In fact, most of the energy consumed on the planet is never in the form of electricity. This includes everything from heating your home to driving your car to operating an ammonia production plant. At best, electricity is horribly inefficient at doing these things, at worst it fails to do them at alll. The inefficiency of electricty and its associated high cost make it an unappealing fix to this problem (read: solar cells that make electricity are not the way to go overall). This means that any solution to our energy problem (that results in less CO2 being released into the atmosphere) must create a low cost fuel from CO2 that is transportable to meet the needs of transportation and other uses where electricity is an unfeasable or too expensive of an option. Don't get me wrong, electricity is great, but it isn't exactly the best option when turning a 2 ton turbine.

Also lost in this is the high probability that fossil fuels are NOT going to run out or become prohibitively expensive in the near future. Maybe 100-200 years down the line we begin to feel heavy market forces that drive the production of alternative fuel sources based upon cost of fossil fuels, but if current trends in CO2 emissions continue, that will be far too late to do anything. Thus, those who say that direct market forces, particularly due to scarcity of fossil fuels, will somehow drive innovation in this area are sadly mistaken. (see link I posted above for the evidence on fossil fuel availability in the near term)

Hopefully we get our booties moving to fix this problem soon.
Animale

[Kelshara]

or turning the heat off while sleeping. You only notice it in the morning but that just gives you motivation to do your shit fast before you go to work.

I love sleeping in a cold room.. unfortunately my better half hates it having grown up in Arizona Damnit! heh

[Jice Virago]

The world's weather is irreperably fucked. We did it ourselves. Only an obstanent person determined to deflect blame and/or maintain the status quo would say otherwise.

But honestly, living in Cali these last couple years and seeing these rich morons pump tons of cash to turn a fucking desert into a horrifically overplanned landscaping project, I embrace our inevitable extinction.

[nobody]

you'd be amazed at how much energy you can save by simply unplugging your tv while you're not home.

That said, i think we're all fucked. God hates us all and is pissed . (my view of God is probably different than yours so don't try to smear Christians for my comment b/c i really believe it) He's not so much fucking with us as he is allowing us to fuck ourselves over (eniviornment, war, etc). i don't think people can get away from immediate self gratification, as a whole, long enough to fix the problems we are causing for ourselves. we are so glutonous(sp) that we try to lose weight by eating MORE (ie atkins). our lifestyles are getting bigger and gaudier. the number of people that drive huge gas-guzzling trucks and suv's to either compensate for their small penis or fit an image is disgusting. i unfortunatley know people that drive 18mpg behemoth's on 40 mile commutes. construction workers are fine and stuff but joe shmoe who will never put his truck in 4 wheel drive or use its bed doesn't need to waste that much gas.

i was amazed that by carpooling everyday i go from 32.6139kgC/day to to 8.6139/kgC/day not including the emissions saved by the other two of us who participate.

[Kelshara]

I truly wish I could get to work by mass transportation.. did it all through school but can't now. Sucks.

[Zaelath]

I think question is currently far too open still to warrant any large-scale action to be taken at this time.

The reason logic is, as always, flawless in what it addresses.. The problem is once you have irrefutable evidence that there is warming and we're the cause, it will be unstoppable.

[Zamtuk]

I still see neighbours who leave cars idling in the cold months for 20 minutes, people who refuse to recycle etc. Makes me wonder if someone is just negating my efforts.

I am one of those people for 2 reasons. 1) Fuck driving anywhere sitting still in a below zero cabin and 2) it is exponentially better for your car to run after its been warmed up then to do so while the engine is still outside temperature.

[Zaelath]

I still see neighbours who leave cars idling in the cold months for 20 minutes, people who refuse to recycle etc. Makes me wonder if someone is just negating my efforts.

I am one of those people for 2 reasons. 1) Fuck driving anywhere sitting still in a below zero cabin and 2) it is exponentially better for your car to run after its been warmed up then to do so while the engine is still outside temperature.

That was true about 20 years ago, takes seconds now for your engine to be properly lubricated.

That said, 20 mins idling warms up the car about the same as 3 mins driving.. and I bet the fuel consumption is similar too.

[Atokal]

Some things must change long before there will be a solution.

Education: People have been hearing about global warming, and environmental apocolyses for decades now and have become de sensitized.

I fear that only catastrophes of a biblical / global nature will wake people up to the point that they actually take some kind of action on a grand scale.

http://www.gallup-international.com/Con ... nium11.asp

You will notice that the majority of people feel the efforts being made to clean up the environment is unsatisfactory. However those that feel a satisfactory amount is being done are very very close in percentage.

The change must be at a grass roots level world wide. It must be presented to the public in a way that shows you CAN make a difference. I know personally I have tried to make changes to help the environment but I still see neighbours who leave cars idling in the cold months for 20 minutes, people who refuse to recycle etc. Makes me wonder if someone is just negating my efforts.

I also feel that educating the public is on a par with alternative fuel sources in terms of importance. You cannot expect the public to boycott gasoline and other unrenewable resources while embracing new potentially more expensive energy unless there is an understood real and present danger.

That's what government is supposed to be for. They're supposed to force you and your retarded neighbours to accept difficult change for the good of the larger community.

Waiting for a biblical disaster to spring into action is like putting on a condom when you get your AIDS test back. If we don't do something soon, and significant, your kids or your grandkids are screwed.

Look on the bright side, when your children are cursing your memory for being short-sighted and selfish, you can rest comfortably knowing they'd have done the same thing.

Exactly, government is supposed to educate, put fines in place for polluters etc. My government signed the Kyoto accord and still has no plan in place to acheive the goals set out by the agreement.

Unfortunately cataclysms on a biblical scale are all most people understand. I cannot imagine a world that is ruled by the makers of automobiles, refiners of oil etc giving a shit about their grandkids when there is money to be made.

[Chmee]

I think question is currently far too open still to warrant any large-scale action to be taken at this time.

The reason logic is, as always, flawless in what it addresses.. The problem is once you have irrefutable evidence that there is warming and we're the cause, it will be unstoppable.

So I am just supposed to ignore the data and the debate on the matter and just accept your assertion that there is warming, we are the cause, and that it will be unstoppable if we wait? What do propose should be done about it if this is the case?