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New Freedom Initiative/Mandatory Mental Health Screening of American Children Passes




Infowars.com | November 23, 2004
On Monday morning, Alex talked to Jeff Diest from Congressman Ron Paul's office.
Diest confirmed that Ron Paul's amendment requiring parental consent prior to government psychological testing/mental screening of all school children was not added to the bill.
The New Freedom Initiative passed sans amendment, as it stood.
Congress Funds Mandatory Psychological Tests for Kids

Newsmax | November 23 2004

One of the nation's leading medical groups, the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons (AAPS), decried a move by the U.S. Senate to join with the House in funding a federal program AAPS says will lead to mandatory psychological testing of every child in America – without the consent of parents.

When the Senate considered an omnibus appropriations bill last week that included funding for grants to implement universal mental health screening for almost 60 million children, pregnant women and adults through schools and pre-schools, it approved $20 million of the $44 million sought, Kathryn Serkes, public affairs counsel for AAPS, told NewsMax.

This $20 million matches a like amount already approved by the House, Serkes advised.

While the funding cut of some $24 million was a little good news, suggested Serkes, whose organization has zealously opposed the the measure, she said the organization was most worried about the failure of Congress to include “parental consent” language sought by the AAPS.

Last September, AAPS lifetime member Rep. Ron Paul, M.D., R-Texas, tried to stop the plan in its tracks by offering an amendment to the Labor, HHS, and Education Appropriations Act for FY 2005. The amendment received 95 “yes” votes, but it failed to pass.

According to Serkes, Paul is now mulling offering stand-alone legislation in the next session to once again try and get a provision for parental consent.

The federal bill on its face does not require mandatory mental health testing to be imposed upon states or local schools, explained Serkes.

However, the HHS appropriations bill contains block grant money that will likely be used – as is often the case with block funding – by the various states to implement mandatory psychological testing programs for all students in the school system.


The spending bill has its roots in the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, created by President Bush in 2002 to propose ways of eliminating waste and improve efficiency and effectiveness of the mental health care delivery system.

Although the report does not specifically recommend screening all students, it does suggest that “schools are in a key position to identify the mental health problems early and to provide a link to appropriate services.”

The bottom line, explained Serkes, is that a state receiving money under this appropriation will likely make its mental testing of kids mandatory – and not be out of synch with the federal enactment.

The other telling point, said Serkes, is that although the relatively minimal funding at this point is certainly not enough to fund mandatory mental testing for kids countrywide, it's an ominous start:

“Once it's established and has funding, a program exhibits the nettlesome property of being self-sustaining – it gets a life of its own. More funding follows.”

Officials of the AAPS decry in the measure what they see as “a dangerous scheme that will heap even more coercive pressure on parents to medicate children with potentially dangerous side effects.”

One of the most “dangerous side effects” from antidepressants commonly prescribed to children is suicide, regarding which AAPS added, “Further, even the government's own task force has concluded that mental health screening does little to prevent suicide.”

Meanwhile, Rep. Paul says the mental testing scheme is a looming feature of "Big Brother" that if unchecked will push parental rights out of the picture:

“At issue is the fundamental right of parents to decide what medical treatment is appropriate for their children. The notion of federal bureaucrats ordering potentially millions of youngsters to take psychotropic drugs like Ritalin strikes an emotional chord with American parents, who are sick of relinquishing more and more parental control to government.

“Once created, federal programs are nearly impossible to eliminate. Anyone who understands bureaucracies knows they assume more and more power incrementally. A few scattered state programs over time will be replaced by a federal program implemented in a few select cities. Once the limited federal program is accepted, it will be expanded nationwide. Once in place throughout the country, the screening program will become mandatory.

“Soviet communists attempted to paint all opposition to the state as mental illness. It now seems our own federal government wants to create a therapeutic nanny state, beginning with schoolchildren. It's not hard to imagine a time 20 or 30 years from now when government psychiatrists stigmatize children whose religious, social, or political values do not comport with those of the politically correct, secular state.

“American parents must do everything they can to remain responsible for their children's well-being. If we allow government to become intimately involved with our children's minds and bodies, we will have lost the final vestiges of parental authority. Strong families are the last line of defense against an overreaching bureaucratic state.”

Background:
Bush to screen population for mental illness
Sweeping initiative links diagnoses to treatment with specific drugs

WorldNetDaily.com | June 21, 2004
President Bush plans to unveil next month a sweeping mental health initiative that recommends screening for every citizen and promotes the use of expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs favored by supporters of the administration.

The New Freedom Initiative, according to a progress report , seeks to integrate mentally ill patients fully into the community by providing "services in the community, rather than institutions," the British Medical Journal reported.

Critics say the plan protects the profits of drug companies at the expense of the public.

The initiative began with Bush's launch in April 2002 of the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, which conducted a "comprehensive study of the United States mental health service delivery system."

The panel found that "despite their prevalence, mental disorders often go undiagnosed" and recommended comprehensive mental health screening for "consumers of all ages," including preschool children.

The commission said, "Each year, young children are expelled from preschools and childcare facilities for severely disruptive behaviors and emotional disorders."

Schools, the panel concluded, are in a "key position" to screen the 52 million students and 6 million adults who work at the schools.

The commission recommended that the screening be linked with "treatment and supports," including "state-of-the-art treatments" using "specific medications for specific conditions."

The Texas Medication Algorithm Project, or TMAP, was held up by the panel as a "model" medication treatment plan that "illustrates an evidence-based practice that results in better consumer outcomes."

The TMAP -- started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas -- also was praised by the American Psychiatric Association, which called for increased funding to implement the overall plan.

But the Texas project sparked controversy when a Pennsylvania government employee revealed state officials with influence over the plan had received money and perks from drug companies who stand to gain from it.

Allen Jones, an employee of the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General says in his whistleblower report the "political/pharmaceutical alliance" that developed the Texas project, which promotes the use of newer, more expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs, was behind the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission, which were "poised to consolidate the TMAP effort into a comprehensive national policy to treat mental illness with expensive, patented medications of questionable benefit and deadly side effects, and to force private insurers to pick up more of the tab."

Jones points out, according to the British Medical Journal, companies that helped start the Texas project are major contributors to Bush's election funds. Also, some members of the New Freedom Commission have served on advisory boards for these same companies, while others have direct ties to TMAP.

Eli Lilly, manufacturer of olanzapine, one of the drugs recommended in the plan, has multiple ties to the Bush administration, BMJ says. The elder President Bush was a member of Lilly's board of directors and President Bush appointed Lilly's chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, to the Homeland Security Council.

Of Lilly's $1.6 million in political contributions in 2000, 82 percent went to Bush and the Republican Party.

Another critic, Robert Whitaker, journalist and author of "Mad in America," told the British Medical Journal that while increased screening "may seem defensible," it could also be seen as "fishing for customers."

Exorbitant spending on new drugs "robs from other forms of care such as job training and shelter program," he said.

However, a developer of the Texas project, Dr. Graham Emslie, defends screening.

"There are good data showing that if you identify kids at an earlier age who are aggressive, you can intervene ... and change their trajectory."

Rep. Ron Paul seeks to yank program, decries use of drugs on children

WND |September 9, 2004
By Ron Strom
Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, plans to offer an amendment in the House of Representatives today that would remove from an appropriations bill a new mandatory mental-health screening program for America's children.

"The American tradition of parents deciding what is best for their children is, yet again, under attack," writes Kent Snyder of the Paul-founded Liberty Committee. "The pharmaceutical industry has convinced President Bush to support mandatory mental-health screening for every child in America, including preschool children, and the industry is now working to convince Congress as well."

As WorldNetDaily reported, the New Freedom Initiative recommends screening not only for children but eventually for every American. The initiative came out of the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, which President Bush established in 2002.

Critics of the plan say it is a thinly veiled attempt by drug companies to provide a wider market for high-priced antidepressants and antipsychotic medication, and puts government in areas of Americans' lives where it does not belong.

Writes Snyder: "The real payoff for the drug companies is the forced drugging of children that will result – as we learned tragically with Ritalin – even when parents refuse."

Paul's amendment to the Labor, HHS and Education Appropriations Act for Fiscal Year 2005 would take the new program out of the funding bill.

The congressman, who is known for his strict adherence to the Constitution, wrote in a letter to his colleagues: "As you know, psychotropic drugs are increasingly prescribed for children who show nothing more than children's typical rambunctious behavior. Many children have suffered harmful effects from these drugs. Yet some parents have even been charged with child abuse for refusing to drug their children. The federal government should not promote national mental-health screening programs that will force the use of these psychotropic drugs such as Ritalin."

The New Freedom Commission found that "despite their prevalence, mental disorders often go undiagnosed" and recommended comprehensive mental-health screening for "consumers of all ages," including preschool children.

The commission said, "Each year, young children are expelled from preschools and childcare facilities for severely disruptive behaviors and emotional disorders."

Schools, the panel concluded, are in a "key position" to screen the 52 million students and 6 million adults who work at the schools.

The state of Illinois has already approved its own mental-health screening program, the Children's Mental Health Act of 2003, which will provide screening for "all children ages 0-18" and "ensure appropriate and culturally relevant assessment of your children's social and emotional development with the use of standardized tools."

Members of the Illinois Children's Mental Health Partnership have held several public hearings on the program in recent months, hearing from parents and others who oppose the mandatory screening.

Karen R. Effrem, M.D., is a physician and leading opponent of mandatory screening. She is on the board of directors of EdWatch, an organization that actively opposes federal control of education.

"I am concerned, especially in the schools, that mental health could be used as a wedge for diagnosis based on attitudes, values, beliefs and political stances – things like perceived homophobia," Effrem told WorldNetDaily.

"There are several violence-prevention programs that do say if a person is homophobic, they could be considered potentially violent."

Continued Effrem: "This mental-health program could be used as an enforcement tool to impose a very politically correct, anti-American curriculum."

Effrem emphasized the new program has no guarantees of parental rights, noting some children have died because parents were coerced to put their kids on psychiatric medications.

Snyder says the following groups have come out in opposition to the screening program: Eagle Forum, Gun Owners of America, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, Concerned Women of America, Freedom 21, the Alliance for Human Research Protection, and the International Center for the Study of Psychiatry and Psychology.

A screening program in Paul's home state began nearly ten years ago. The Texas Medication Algorithm Project, or TMAP, was held up by the New Freedom Commission as a "model" medication treatment plan that "illustrates an evidence-based practice that results in better consumer outcomes."

The TMAP – started in 1995 as an alliance of individuals from the pharmaceutical industry, the University of Texas and the mental health and corrections systems of Texas – also was praised by the American Psychiatric Association, which called for increased funding to implement the overall plan.

But the Texas project sparked controversy when a Pennsylvania government employee revealed state officials with influence over the plan had received money and perks from drug companies who stand to gain from it.

Allen Jones, an employee of the Pennsylvania Office of the Inspector General says in his whistleblower report the "political/pharmaceutical alliance" that developed the Texas project, which promotes the use of newer, more expensive antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs, was behind the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission, which were "poised to consolidate the TMAP effort into a comprehensive national policy to treat mental illness with expensive, patented medications of questionable benefit and deadly side effects, and to force private insurers to pick up more of the tab."

Jones points out, according to a British Medical Journal report, companies that helped start the Texas project are major contributors to Bush's re-election. Also, some members of the New Freedom Commission have served on advisory boards for these same companies, while others have direct ties to TMAP.





Mental Health and World Citizenship

Dr. Dennis Cuddy | August 11 2004

In a recent article, I related that the Bush administration's Secretary of Education Rod Paige last October 3 declared that the U.S. is pleased to rejoin UNESCO where we could develop common strategies to prepare our children to become "citizens of the world."

Then on June 21 WorldNetDaily published "Life With Big Brother: Bush to screen population for mental illness" describing President Bush's "New Freedom Initiative" that would have every citizen receive a mental health screening. What one needs to guard against is the use of mental health to pursue world government.

The theme of the administration of President Woodrow Wilson was "The New Freedom" and it pursued the ideals of PHILIP DRU: ADMINISTRATOR, written in 1912 by President Wilson's chief adviser, Col. Edward M. House, who wrote of "socialism as dreamed of by Karl Marx." Education would be a primary vehicle for achieving the objective, and John Dewey, the father of progressive education, promoted socialism. He said the society or group is most important, and that independent individualists have a form of "insanity."

By the late 1940s, Dewey's progressive education was becoming dominant in American public schools. And in 1948 an International Congress on Mental Health was held in London with publication of a document "Mental Health and World Citizenship," declaring that "world citizenship can be widely extended among all peoples through the application of the principles of mental health." The Congress promoted the U.N. as the vehicle for promoting this objective, and UNESCO's director-general Sir Julian Huxley the same year wrote in UNESCO: ITS PURPOSE AND ITS PHILOSOPHY that "political unification in some sort of world government will be required."

The 1950s and 1960s saw the growing strength of Dewey's progressive educational philosophy and mental health advocacy, and in 1965 the Joint Commission on Mental Health of Children was established. In 1969, the Commission released its report, which stated: "As the home and church decline in influence...schools must begin to provide adequately for the emotional and moral development of children....The school...must assume a direct responsibility for the attitudes and values of child development. The child advocate, psychologist, social technician, and medical technician should all reach aggressively into the community, send workers out to children's homes, recreation facilities, and schools. They should assume full responsibility for all education, including pre-primary education."

In the 1970s, a representative of HEW (U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare) approached North Carolina Governor James B. Hunt, Jr. about developing a model for child health care around the nation. The N.C. Plan was called "Child Health Plan for Raising a New Generation," and included establishing a "health care home" for every child, stating "responsibilities belonging to child and family are required." The plan was released in 1979, the same year the N.C. State Health Plan was adopted, linking in two places religion with mental illness and mental retardation.

In the same year (1979), Bill Clinton (supported by Hillary Clinton) began Arkansas' Governor's School for the Gifted and Talented, modeled after the first Governor's School in the nation which was established in 1963 in N.C., was funded in part by the Carnegie Corporation, and was attended by the writer of this article. We were given various psychological tests which, I believe, looked at us as guinea pigs to be remoulded for the Brave New World of the future.

When Hillary Clinton became First Lady of the U.S. in 1993, she was in charge of a health care task force, about half the members of whom were connected with the Robert Wood Johnson (RWJ) Foundation. On the NBC "Today Show" (January 23, 1990), Dr. Michael Lewis of the New Jersey Robert Wood Johnson Medical School had claimed: "Lying is an important part of social life, and children who are unable to do it are children who may have developmental problems."

What Hillary Clinton's task force was proposing was basically socialized medicine. Hillary's friend, former N.C. Gov. Hunt, became director of RWJ's Mental Health Services for Youth program. And regarding a January 4-5, 1996 symposium in Frankfurt, KY, attended by attorney Kent Masterson Brown, the attorney said: "He (former Gov. Hunt) came to Governor Wallace Wilkinson in Kentucky and told him that RWJ would like Kentucky to become part of this mental health program for youth, and said we'll give you $100,000 to plan a program....That's what they do. I mean, you think that's just buying legislation. Well, it is."

The next year, early in 1997, former Gov. Hunt was chairman of the National Education Goals Panel (NEGP) and promoted the Early Childhood Public Engagement Campaign that actor Rob Reiner and others were starting, with the Carnegie Corporation once again playing a critical role (the Carnegie Institution in 1904 had financed the establishment of a biological experiment station related to eugenics at Cold Spring Harbor, NY). The NEGP indicated a desire for the creation of a nationalized system of child care from age zero based upon the principles of brain research (mental health). Roy Roemer, Governor of Colorado at the time, stated: "The ideal system would be...in every community or county you have an organizational structure that is responsible for the zero to 6, zero to 3 age level for the child....And then finally put in a hooker and say, 'Hey, you don't get any payments from state on their highways until you do this job.'"

It may be this same type of coercive tactic that is used to facilitate the current New Freedom Initiative. Mental health screenings may be attached to the current vaccines most children are required to receive to attend public schools. And for older people, they may be asked by insurance companies to "voluntarily" accept the screenings if they don't want their premiums to increase.

In 2001, President George W. Bush worked with U.S. Senator Ted Kennedy to pass the federal "No Child Left Behind" legislation, which includes provisions for expanding school-based mental health programs. This fits with the report of The New Freedom in Mental Health Commission, which stressed that "schools must be partners in the mental health care of our children."

Where is all this leading? In the third volume of Arthur Calhoun's A SOCIAL HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN FAMILY, published in 1919 and widely used as a social service textbook, one reads: "The new view is that the higher and more obligatory relation is to society rather than to the family; the family goes back to the age of savagery while the state belongs to the age of civilization. The modern individual is a world citizen, served by the world, and home interests can no longer be supreme....As soon as the new family, consisting of only the parents and the children, stood forth, society saw how many were unfit for parenthood and began to realize the need of community care....As familism weakens, society has to assume a larger parenthood. The school begins to assume responsibility for the functions thrust upon it....The kindergarten grows downward toward the cradle and there arises talk of neighborhood nurseries....Social centers replace the old time home chimney....The chlld passes more and more into the custody of community experts....In the new social order, extreme emphasis is sure to be placed upon eugenic procreation....It seems clear that at least in its early stages, socialism will mean an increased amount of social control....We may expect in the socialist commonwealth a system of public educational agencies that will begin with the nursery and follow the individual through life....Those persons that experience alarm at the thought of intrinsic changes in family institutions should remember that in the light of social evolution, nothing is right or valuable in itself."

Relevant to this, Clinton administration official Mary Jo Bane said almost 30 years ago that "in order to raise children with equality, we must take them away from families and communally raise them." (TULSA SUNDAY WORLD, August 21, 1977) And about that same time, HEW Executive Assistant Eddie Bernice Johnson (who would later become a Congresswoman from Texas) advocated the licensing of parents before they would be permitted to have children. Licensing of parents has also been proposed by Prof. Gene Stephens (THE FUTURIST, April 1981) and Dr. Jack Westman (LICENSING PARENTS, 1994).

Under the American socialism planned for our future, government will increasingly control our lives via mental health screening and education, among other means. Only if the American people resist these efforts as soon as possible will we be successful in thwarting the plans of the power elite.


Also See:
Over 5200 Concerned Adults Refuse to Comply with New Freedom Initiative for Mental Health Screening in the Schools

I can't believe this was added into our budget especially without parental consent.

[Winnow]

First post! The quote is too long to read but it sounds bad.

/comfort

[Lohrno]

The stated goal is noble, but the lack of parental consent part coupled with the Bush administration is waving some red flags in my mind.

-=Lohrno

[Seebs]

I believe schools enforce Vaccinations for the students in order t oenroll ... this will probably get lumped with that line of thinking.

Not sure how I feel about this yet. Call me crazy.

[Lohrno]

Not sure how I feel about this yet. Call me crazy.

No, that's definitely fair enough. I was apparently diagnosed with ADHD a while ago. They wanted me to take ritallin. My mom told the school that she'd homeschool me before she did that as I was not fucking ADHD. I can see this as leading to a lot of cases like that though.

-=Lohrno

[Thess]

Yep, basically they will begin enforcing it as needed once diagnosed. Let's drug up the children yay!

[Lohrno]

Yep, basically they will begin enforcing it as needed once diagnosed. Let's drug up the children yay!

Yes. Schools are generally lazy, and will take the most easy/cheap way out because they are not funded well enough.

"You're not listening to the teacher huh? Well some prozak oughta change your tune young man!"

There's this on the one hand, on the other, there is the actual potential to find suicidal/neurotic, and children who have been abused.

-=Lohrno

[Aaeamdar]

My initial thoughts are negative. The model, of course, is the MMR requirements. But there the dangers are clear and the solution simple. Mental health is far from clearand simple. I guess if they were screaning for genetic/biological disfunctions - schitzophernia for example, it would make the danger and diagnosis clear - but would be so rare as to be overkill. If they are screaning for the quasi-mental illnesses/behavioural "disorders" such as ADHD or "violent" tendencies or looking for "signs" of potential behavioural problems, then I can see widespread application, but very troublesome potential results and/or means. The potential corruption is worrisome as well. Pharma is already trying to get people hooked on long term drug use through advertising. I'd hate to see a system installed nationwide where they were able to eventually install some sort of mandatory drug program. This would not necessarily have to involve such a program, but given that Pharma is supporting it, I think that is a possible and reasonable end.

[Chmee]

I just wanted to say that I have a lot of respect in general for Ron Paul, who from what I have heard is one of the few consistent supporters of limited government and adhering strictly to the constitution. Bonus fact, he was the libertarian candidate for President in the 1988 race.

[Aaeamdar]

I suppose I should add that if public education was done away with entirely, this (and many other related problems) would be a non-issue.

[Tyek]

Can you imagine the trauma some poor child is going to have to go through if he is misdignosed. School is hard enough for kids without putting any additional stigmas on them.

[Thess]

As well as the fact that some anti depressants cause some kids who are not suicidal to be suicidal. Most drugs have not been tested on children, and who knows what the long term effects are.

Also - How are people going to pay for this? I know I spend over $300 a month on medication.. most people can't afford to do that.

[Kelshara]

It never ceases to amaze me why this country believes medication/drugs is the solution for everything. You use WAY more of it here than back home.

[Aslanna]

"You're not listening to the teacher huh? Well some prozak oughta change your tune young man!"

Prozac is used to treat depression. Not ADD/ADHD.

Just injecting actual facts into this thread!

[Lohrno]

Prozac is used to treat depression. Not ADD/ADHD.

Just injecting actual facts into this thread!

Well I didn't know that but it doesn't matter much. My joke still stands. =D They could easily prescribe any variety of mind altering drugs to kids who are disruptive. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

And the actual facts line is disrespectful the original article that was posted here...Was that your intent?

-=Lohrno

[Winnow]

Drugs can't substitute for neglectful parents.

Give me a one hour session with Thess a week to correct all of damage Karae does to proper mental health/development and she wouldn't need any drugs!

Dr D'Pooh
Resident Deprogrammer


Seriously though. The majority of us agree that drugs aren't the answer for kids having issues at school. I still haven't read the article but it may be attempting to address the fact that many parents suck at parenting and can't be counted on to give a shit about their children's mental state and health. Psych evaluations may not be a bad idea for schools to perform but the solution needs to be something other than pumping drugs into them.

[Akaran_D]

I'm going to hold out until this is reported on or confirmed by a major news org instead of just a blog. When this surfaced on Fark a few days ago, it was quickly discredited by most of the posters there based on the source.

[Rekaar.]

I suppose I should add that if public education was done away with entirely, this (and many other related problems) would be a non-issue.

I second that. Privatize the school system. Nothing like a little competition in teh check book to make things run better.

[Akaran_D]

Dar and I agree on this.
Privitize the school systems.
Impliment HARD tests that the teachers and principles have to take yearly. If they get below a B, they are fired.

Can think of dozens of other things that need to be done to it too.

[Aslanna]

Prozac is used to treat depression. Not ADD/ADHD.

Just injecting actual facts into this thread!

Well I didn't know that but it doesn't matter much. My joke still stands. =D They could easily prescribe any variety of mind altering drugs to kids who are disruptive. That doesn't seem like a good thing.

And the actual facts line is disrespectful the original article that was posted here...Was that your intent?

-=Lohrno

Unlike Midnyte I don't feel like clarifying every little nitpick. It was a simple statement in which you are free to interpret it however you choose. Disrespectful? Give me a break.

If you want to know I didn't read the first post. My attention span is pretty short these days. Maybe I need some prozac. Although skimming it it didn't seem a whole lot different than a similar topic discussed here a couple months ago.

[Thess]

Akaran, it was placed in the budget - while they voted on it and it lost in September, they put it in the budget and it passed both the house and the senate.

[Lohrno]

Dar and I agree on this.
Privitize the school systems.
Impliment HARD tests that the teachers and principles have to take yearly. If they get below a B, they are fired.

So instead of one school taking the money you have several schools which are free of government scrutiny taking the same money allocated to the one, and possibly extremely poorly managed (I'm not claiming the current ones are, but their low budgets don't help this much.) ?

Healthcare is a necessary thing that's privatized, look at the costs! Privatization of the schools would literally kill the country in 50 years when all our students are uneducated.

-=Lohrno

[Lohrno]

Unlike Midnyte I don't feel like clarifying every little nitpick. It was a simple statement in which you are free to interpret it however you choose. Disrespectful? Give me a break.

Well that's fine if you are saying the article is bunk and have some reason for saying so. But at least back up such a claim. You said this thread was devoid of facts.

-=Lohrno

[Hesten]

This is one bad idea. Whoever thought the solution for any problems are to drug everyone should be shot.

That being said, if this are go be mandatory in schools, it should also be mandatory for any person seeking public office. Could be fun to give Bush a mental test

[Aaeamdar]

Healthcare is a necessary thing that's privatized

Healthcare, like education, is not "necessary." If anything, prolonged life is the source of the greatest costs of our healthcare. People, generally, should die much sooner than they do. The use of medical care to extend lives well beyond their constructiveness should be a luxury afforded to the rich (should they choose that route).

Likewise, not everyone needs to be educated. There are very reasonable arguments that people in America are over educated (and under learned). As Judge Smayles (sp?) said (though condescendingly, which is the wrong attitude, but hey, it was a comedy)- "well, the world needs ditch diggers too." Unfortunately, in America, College is now regarded as the minimum level of education to be "successful." If, as a Nation, your population is over educated you are bound to become a "Service Provider" Nation. That is, if people are too educated to merit low paying manufacturing jobs, those jobs are sent elsewhere to places with a plethora of workers willing to work for a low wage.

The United States needs to recognize that someone who is a factory worker that did not go to college is not a failure. He or she is just someone who made different choices based on their own circumstances.

From a social planning perspective, you want the smartest kids to track into areas of education that best cater to their intelligence and you want to not stigmatize the less intelligent as somehow less of a person. You also want to track the less intelligent into successful careers that do not require as much education. This is the great failing of the idea that a college education is a "right" and that completing college is very important for everyone. America arrogantly pushes many people beyond their capabilities and then labels them as failures when they do not perform to expectations. We are thus left with a large population of over-educated, unqualified individuals that would have all been better off tracking into a career after high-school.

Leave that sort of stupidity to the rich. If some wealthy people want to send their child to schools in an attempt to push him or her beyond their capabilities because they are too embarrassed to have a child working after high-school, then let them waste their money. The important thing is to make sure that lower income intelligent people have the opportunity to progress in school to a point where they are best suited. That is certainly a challenge in a capitalist society, but the solution is not to shove education on everyone.

The limited use of government funds targeted at capable lower income children to assist them in reaching the level of education most appropriate to their talents is a good thing. Forcing "education" on everyone, regardless of capability is not.

[Chmee]

Dar and I agree on this.
Privitize the school systems.
Impliment HARD tests that the teachers and principles have to take yearly. If they get below a B, they are fired.

So instead of one school taking the money you have several schools which are free of government scrutiny taking the same money allocated to the one, and possibly extremely poorly managed (I'm not claiming the current ones are, but their low budgets don't help this much.) ?

Free of government scrutiny perhaps, but they would then come under consumer scrutiny. Which is far more effective.

[Rivera Bladestrike]

What I want to know is, why is freedom or patriot in the title of every oppressing bill being introduced.

[Zaelath]

What I want to know is, why is freedom or patriot in the title of every oppressing bill being introduced.

<insert Nazi propaganda quotes here>

[Deward]

Children are no longer required to be vaccinated to start public school. My son will not be vaccinated for most of the stuff unless it looks like it is making a comeback. The only thing I see that he needs is the Whooping Cough vaccine because that is pretty common in WI.

I also would not allow the school to do one of these psych tests on my child. If I want to have my child evaluated, I will take him to a private doctor. Not have him questioned by some government stooge with no medical degree.

[Neost]

In case anyone didn't know, your children are already being assessed by teachers and school administrators.

It has been several years but when my son was in elementary school I was notified that they had determined he probably had ADD/ADHD and they were notifying me that they were going to do further evaluations.

I stormed the school ready for a fight. Seems that his teacher decided that he was ADD/ADHD because she couldn't "control" him. Pretty much he was a kid who HATED sitting in class and would rather be outside running and playing. Imagine that.

After I told the school counselor and principal that I didn't feel they were qualifed to be making a medical diagnosis things got ugly. They insisted on placing him in a "counseling program" and taking away his classroom time to visit with the school counselor. He saw it as a way to get out of class. I took him to our family physician for testing. They referred me to a shrink who determined that my son was a normal boy and probably just needed a stern teacher.

After that we went a few rounds with me telling the school to butt out and them telling me they could do whatever the wanted and would continue to do so. It actually took the threat of an attorney and a lawsuit against the school/school board/education department to back them off.

This appears to me to be a formalization of a process that began long ago.

[Pherr the Dorf]

Once more.... no parental consent of a mental health test for your child...
that is fucking fascist and Orwellian beyond words, thankfully the charter school my kids go to is exempt, despite being a technically public school system. GoGo charter schools

[Akaran_D]

So instead of one school taking the money you have several schools which are free of government scrutiny taking the same money allocated to the one, and possibly extremely poorly managed (I'm not claiming the current ones are, but their low budgets don't help this much.) ?

Lhorno, wtf are you talking about?
Whoever said that they would be free of government scrutiny? I'm all for federally regulating them, imposing federal mandates, et al. I'm not even sure your statement makes sense.. having multiple schools take the same money as allocated for one.. you've lost me.

I have family that deals with the local BoE in my area on a daily basis. I'm a byproduct of the education system's mismanagement and I hold nothing but utter resentment to them for it (if you want to know what I mean by this, go ahead and ask); the current system we have set up is a piece of flaming shit.

If privitization will do better for our children than being under direct local government controll, then I'm all for it. I'm all for any change that will improve the quality of our educators.

[Lalanae]

You know what pisses me off is that there is scientific evidence that poor nutrition is often to blame for behavioral problems and disorders like ADHD. This evidence is being disregarded so the pharmaceutical companies can make more money. EFA supplements have shown to help ADHD in many cases.

A better solution would be nutritional counseling for dumbass parents who think chicken nuggets and french fries are a reasonable meal for their children and better meals in schools.

Rekaar, you want more evidence that the average American is an idiot? Look at what they/you feed their children. Look at how much they/you know about nutrition.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'm in favor of the testing, but not without parental consent. I also don't like the recent trend to throw drugs at every problem. I guess this is where technology takes us though. TV's in every room, computers in every household, cell phones, microwaves, drugs to fix everything. /shrug
It's every science-fiction movie coming true. This is progress. Very disheartening how fast it has and is all happening.

[Thess]

I guess my biggest problem with this is simply - it's another bill that couldn't get passed on it's own, so it was placed into the budget bill (along with a ton of other stuff). If senators/representatives don't vote yes for the budget - then when they are up for re-election, they will get - he/she doesn't fund the troops, or whatever other crap they could throw at them.

This was a bill that was put on their desks in the morning, it's over 4000 pages, and they voted on it that afternoon. I'm sorry but not being able to read the legislation you are voting on, is just wrong.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I guess my biggest problem with this is simply - it's another bill that couldn't get passed on it's own, so it was placed into the budget bill (along with a ton of other stuff). If senators/representatives don't vote yes for the budget - then when they are up for re-election, they will get - he/she doesn't fund the troops, or whatever other crap they could throw at them.

This was a bill that was put on their desks in the morning, it's over 4000 pages, and they voted on it that afternoon. I'm sorry but not being able to read the legislation you are voting on, is just wrong.

I agree. I have always felt each bill should be voted on seperately.

[masteen]

America arrogantly pushes many people beyond their capabilities and then labels them as failures when they do not perform to expectations. We are thus left with a large population of over-educated, unqualified individuals that would have all been better off tracking into a career after high-school.

Sounds like the Peter Principle in action!

[Lohrno]

Lhorno, wtf are you talking about?

I realize I made a difficult username 10 years ago, but was it that hard to put the h after the o?

Whoever said that they would be free of government scrutiny?

If our medical system is under the same government scrutiny, we'd definitely be in trouble.

I'm all for federally regulating them, imposing federal mandates, et al. I'm not even sure your statement makes sense.. having multiple schools
take the same money as allocated for one.. you've lost me.

Okay, one of the things that republicans want in general is privatization. They say that there would be multiple little schools competing for their money. Our current system has one school run by the gov't. The vouchers, etc. Unless you want to make it totally private which would burden families of students with something akin to the money spent on college for Highschool and Jr. High. Again, not good.

I have family that deals with the local BoE in my area on a daily basis. I'm a byproduct of the education system's mismanagement and I hold nothing but utter resentment to them for it (if you want to know what I mean by this, go ahead and ask); the current system we have set up is a piece of flaming shit.

Ahhhhh so now we've hit the nail on the head. Yes the education system sucks and is mismanaged. I don't think you need to elaborate I completely understand. You can if you like, I wouldn't mind hearing these horror stories, but I'm in total understanding of these problems already. I'm all for reform, but not privatization.

If privitization will do better for our children than being under direct local government controll, then I'm all for it. I'm all for any change that will improve the quality of our educators.

Me too but I don't think privatization is the answer here. Our schools are shitty enough, and putting them in the hands of businessmen does not sound like a great idea to me. Businesses need to make profit, schools don't. This profit would come from where when the current money being put in is the same?

-=Lohrno

[Tenuvil]

America arrogantly pushes many people beyond their capabilities and then labels them as failures when they do not perform to expectations. We are thus left with a large population of over-educated, unqualified individuals that would have all been better off tracking into a career after high-school...

Hence the large number of management consultants and professional services people we see in business these days.

Excellent post Dar.

[Rekaar.]

Rekaar, you want more evidence that the average American is an idiot? Look at what they/you feed their children. Look at how much they/you know about nutrition.

Ignorance is not stupidity. Trying to have a discussion about ignorance without knowing its meaning is something else! =p

[Zaelath]

Rekaar, you want more evidence that the average American is an idiot? Look at what they/you feed their children. Look at how much they/you know about nutrition.

Ignorance is not stupidity. Trying to have a discussion about ignorance without knowing its meaning is something else! =p

Ignorance is indeed wilfull stupidity. The problem is schools are supposed to teach you *how* to think, where as most seem to want to teach *what* to think. So to an extent you can track "average" stupidity levels back to your sylabus.

[Knibble]

Really upsets me.
Let me tell you my story and yes there will be run on sentences etc.*I don't care at this point*

I have a daughter who just turned 17.She was always athletic,always had friends,and was an average to above average in her grades.She was always happy and outgoing.
She started seeing this kid in school*he is a senior this year*and at first it was one of those aww puppy love things you know teens have.Then one day after school she came running into the house screaming and throwing things around*I have never seen her act this way*.
I asked her what the hell was going on etc.Apparently her boyfriend had run away and was a some hotel and was going to kill himself.Short story of it is he blamed my daughter why he was gonna do it,his mother found him and they put him away for a week in a place here called The Meadows.
It's been almost a year now she has been seeing him and still sees him even though I don't approve.
My reasons I don't want her with him....
1. He threw her books in the middle of busy avenue and made her cry and left her there alone,a city cop stopped and helped her get her books and asked her if she was ok.

You know I can't even type all this it's too upsetting.So the short version is this....
I have been taking her to a counsler at mental health for 3 months now and she is even worse.Just a few weeks ago she was arguing with him on the phone and totally wiped out her bedroom,I am talking tv,mirrors,bed,jewlery boxes,cd players,I mean everything you name it it was smashed.
Then turns to me and screams I hate everyone here I am never coming back.I havent seen my daughter in 2 weeks not a phone call to say sorry nothing.
It was like the devil took over my child I mean she had NO pupils.I was shocked.

Now this is just a few things here.
But here is the best part.I taker her to her counsler every 2 weeks and they put her on meds and say she is depressed.Then change her meds again.*mind you I have to pay for all this*.BUT I am not aloud to talk to her counsler and they don't tell me shit and I am not aloud to know why she is on meds and all I wanna know is if my daughter is going to be ok.
And I am NOT aloud to know none of this.

I see it as she is under 18 and apparently not capable of controling herself so therefore why as a parent can't I know even if my daughter is gonna be ok?

The answer I got was she is over the age of 14 and we don't have to tell you anything.

I blame this kid because she never was like this till he came along.And his former girlfriend who was a friend of hers had to go to counsling and be out on meds cause of him.
Now she blames me ,hates me,tells me it's all my fault.
And all I asked was that when she was at my house not to talk to him on the phone.*guess it was too much to ask*because when she talks to him on the phone thats when it all happens.

I got a judge to sign a paper for me to go in next week and find out about everything because they wanna send her away now to The Meadows.

Sorry for rambling ,half this probably don't make sense because I just got off work and i'm tired.

[Aabidano]

You might want to get a drug test done after\during one of these episodes. My daughter used to go off the wall after coming back from her (former) boyfriends' trailer trash sisters house. Screaming, throwing stuff, etc.. Turns out they were drinking, smoking and who knows what else over there. We ended up having to Baker act her after one of the episodes.

*Edit - We were told "something" was in her system, but not what.

[Knibble]

Ans how would I get a test done after that? Drag her there?She would fight me tooth and nail.And she is taller than me!

[Aabidano]

After a nightmarish amount of crap, we called the cops. Given due cause the court can order tests as part of a mental diagnosis. It sounds terrible but I don't see that we had any choice. It doesn't fix the problem, but it does let you know where it lies.

People\kids don't (generally) just change in a course of a week like that, there's usually a cause. When it's accompanied by meeting and\or hanging out with new people drugs are a prime suspect. It's a fairly common pattern from what I've been told. Drastic behavior shifts when a minor\young adult hangs out wih new people frequently are an indicator of drug and\or alchohol use.

[Lohrno]

[quote="Knibble"]
...
[quote]

That is definitely one of the most fucked up things I've ever heard. I'm sorry, I really feel for you. I hope to never have to be put in that position myself.

I don't understand why the government feels the need to be kids' parents...

-=Lohrno

[Aabidano]

Because parents are incompetent, irresponsible and abusive by default in the eyes of the people who are pushing this legislation? And chemicals can fix any ill, including immaturity. This has already happened in numerous areas, there was a school in SC that was diagnosing and drugging students at school without prior parental consent.

Not going to get into details, but during one of my daughters "episodes" she went to the school counselor to complain how unfairly we treated her. The counselor promptly called the county, you're guilty by default when dealing with that ignorant batch of baboons. It took 5 more times before they realized that the problem didn't lie with me.

[masteen]

Also to be cosidered: high school boys are very likely to pressure their girlfriends to do drugs as a means to lower her willpower and get into her pants. That kind of shit has a double whammy on a young girl, because she is now on drugs, which could totally fuck up her already whacked out hormonal balance AND sexually active which can fuck up her emotional balance. Not a good combo at all.

[Fairweather Pure]

high school boys are very likely to pressure their girlfriends to do drugs as a means to lower her willpower and get into her pants.

Damn dude, where did you go to school? I never associated with anyone that would do such a thing or even heard of such things being done other than on 60 Minutes or Dateline.

[Aabidano]

Was pretty common when I was a teenager....