Detroit Indiana Brawl

noel · Post by **noel** » November 20, 2004, 3:23 pm

I believe that Ron Artest/Stephen Jackson are the most at fault in this situation. Had they not gone into the stands, security personnel would have grabbed the person who threw the cup, and he would have been punished.

That said, even though I feel these two players turned what could have been a minor incident into a full blown riot, I can certainly understand their mentality. Fans in general in sports are getting out of control. What happened after the initial fighting, with fans coming onto the court, and raining food, drinks, a chair, and anything else not nailed down on the players was horrible.

Just kind of curious to hear people's thoughts...

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » November 20, 2004, 3:26 pm

Artest should of held a bit more restraint but everyman has a breaking point. Those fans were grade A jerks.

Equal blame for me.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 20, 2004, 3:31 pm

Oh, I want to add that any fan that so much as approached a player who was on the floor deserved anything they got. I was 100% glad to see Artest and O'Neal knock the shit out of the two fans who approached them on the floor.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » November 20, 2004, 3:40 pm

I feel that, for the most part, the actions of the players involved on both teams were actions that are natural in the circumstances presented. If Artest and Jackson had stayed out of the stands, I would have said "wow, good for them," but I don't blame them for going in. Our societal penchant for moral hyperbole inside, I don't think there's a whole lot of people who would have acted differently.

For all the shit that Ron Artest takes and will continue to take, consider this: During a basketball game, he was shoved in the face, unprovoked, by Ben Wallace. Instead of escalating the situation, he stepped back and laid down, choosing to not get involved. It was only after he was attacked again, by someone unrelated to the first situation, that he responded. If Artest had whipped a basketball at Ben Wallace's head while Wallace's back was turned, would you be surprised if the situation got violent? Would you blame Wallace for defending himself?

The mob mentality displayed by the fans was despicable and pathetic. The absolute lowest was the groups of fans sprinting to the exits to get a chance to pour beer on Jermaine O'Neal and the other Pacers as they left the arena. Come the fuck on. These are grown men. The only reason the situation escalated beyond a minor, contained basketball fight is directly because of the actions of the fans. If the fans had done something so simple as not physically assaulting players we would not be discussing this now.

What should happen:

Ben Wallace should be suspended for one or two games for the initial shove.
Ron Artest should be suspended for one or two games for going into the crowd.
Stephen Jackson should be suspended for three games for throwing the first punch in the crowd.
Jermaine O'Neal should not be suspended or punished whatsoever. The fan he punched was on the floor, which is simply unacceptable.
Fans who came onto the floor should be arrested and prosecuted.
Fans who contributed to the carnage from the stands should have their season tickets removed and lose the right to attend NBA games.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 20, 2004, 3:46 pm

Sueven wrote:What should happen:

Ben Wallace should be suspended for one or two games for the initial shove.

Agree, but not really for the initial shove. The shove was flagrant, but him continuing to go after Artest was what he should be suspended for.

Ron Artest should be suspended for one or two games for going into the crowd.

I wouldn't have a problem with a 1-2 game suspension, but I think perhaps Artest and Jackson should get a few more for going into the stands. I totally understand them going into the stands, but no matter what the fans are doing, NOTHING good can come of that.

Stephen Jackson should be suspended for three games for throwing the first punch in the crowd.
Jermaine O'Neal should not be suspended or punished whatsoever. The fan he punched was on the floor, which is simply unacceptable.
Fans who came onto the floor should be arrested and prosecuted.

Totally agree here. No fan on the floor should get any consideration at all.

Fans who contributed to the carnage from the stands should have their season tickets removed and lose the right to attend NBA games.

That would be great, but I think identification might be a problem. My understanding is that some of the fans were running toward the exit tunnels to throw shit at the pacers and their coach as they were leaving.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » November 20, 2004, 4:02 pm

aranoel wrote:That would be great, but I think identification might be a problem. My understanding is that some of the fans were running toward the exit tunnels to throw shit at the pacers and their coach as they were leaving.

Yeah, it's definitely unrealistic to hope that all or most of the fans could be identified. I would just hope that enough video exists to catch a few of them and take their tickets. It would provide some sort of consequence for mob behavior, which would probably help decrease it in the future, because a key feature of mob behavior is that it generally carries no consequences.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 20, 2004, 4:20 pm

Simple: Keep beer away from games. It is interesting to note that both here and in Europe where these things happen alcohol is available, while in places where it isn't (alcohol is not allowed in Norwegian sporting arenas) it never or very very rarely happens.

Sports bring emotions to the boiling point, and alcohol tips it over for some people.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 20, 2004, 4:25 pm

Sueven wrote:
What should happen:

Ben Wallace should be suspended for one or two games for the initial shove.
Ron Artest should be suspended for one or two games for going into the crowd.
Stephen Jackson should be suspended for three games for throwing the first punch in the crowd.
Jermaine O'Neal should not be suspended or punished whatsoever. The fan he punched was on the floor, which is simply unacceptable.
Fans who came onto the floor should be arrested and prosecuted.
Fans who contributed to the carnage from the stands should have their season tickets removed and lose the right to attend NBA games.

That sounds about right but it won't be that simple. There will be plenty of lawsuits to drag things out.

Hopefully the person that thew the full beer at Artest is identified.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » November 20, 2004, 4:32 pm

Moreover, hopefully the person that threw the chair will be identified. I was truly glad to see the players defend themselves, as they should've.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 20, 2004, 5:13 pm

Artest is a punk.

isnt he the clown who said he needed to take 2 months off cause he was tired from producing a rap album? i hope he takes 2 months off in jail.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 20, 2004, 5:14 pm

Once again, NBA players showing what they are made of.... OMG it was Artest, what a shocker!!!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 20, 2004, 5:15 pm

Voronwë wrote:Artest is a punk.

isnt he the clown who said he needed to take 2 months off cause he was tired from producing a rap album? i hope he takes 2 months off in jail.

One in the same...

Badabidi · Post by **Badabidi** » November 20, 2004, 5:32 pm

Artest's cheap shot is what caused all of this shit in the first place, but everyone's to blame for it escalating. Just because he goes and sits on the scoreboard like a baby after the teams start fighting each other for something he started doesn't make him innocent on any accounts

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » November 20, 2004, 5:38 pm

Voronwë wrote:Artest is a punk.

isnt he the clown who said he needed to take 2 months off cause he was tired from producing a rap album? i hope he takes 2 months off in jail.

It was an R&B album. Artest was not to blame, or did you watch what happened at all?

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » November 20, 2004, 6:30 pm

I was at the game. I took my family and my daughter was frightened by the melee that ensued. We were behind the Pacer's bench on the baseline. I was no more than 50 feet from were Artest clocked the fan (he sat 2 rows infront of us) on the floor who got in his face. The guy deserved it but his buddy who gothis world rocked by Jermaine O'Neal did not. Jermaine came flyingfrom midcourt and decked they guy who wasbeing wrestled down by the security. All I could do was cover my daughter's eyes. Thankfully my son is too young to remember this but my daughter is constantly nagging me why this happened.

I have to place the spilling over into the stands on Artes. He attacked the wrong guy andI pretty sure of that cause the guy in the blue jersey on the tape that is seen sucker punching Artest was jumping around pumping his hands after Artest was struck. Both Artest and Jackson will be sued as they attacked innocent bystanders.

They funniest thing in my opinion about the entire incident is that Artest claims self defense about being hit by a cup of beer. What the fuck about Ben Wallace who pushed him in the chest. Artest wanted no piece of Ben Wallace. In fact he retreated rather quickly but Artest was more than willing to attack a 5'8" 160 pound fan who still had his beer in his hand.

On another note, I find it ludicrous thatall the ESPN experts blame this on the fans. The crowd and energy was at amazing levels after the Wallace-Artest altercation. All Artest had to do was leave it alone and go to the dressing room because the security gaurds would have sorted out who the beer chucker just like they do at every other sport venue I have been to. Chucking stuff onto they field of play is not limited to this game, I've been to Bengals, Reds, Red Wings, and Lions games and the same stuff happens when emotions get heated.

Waran · Post by **Waran** » November 20, 2004, 6:35 pm

This just in, the NBA suspends all players indefinately

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylc=X ... &type=lgns

NBA suspends Artest, O'Neal, Jackson, Wallace

By CHRIS SHERIDAN, AP Basketball Writer
November 20, 2004

AP - Nov 20, 3:44 pm EST
More Photos

NEW YORK (AP) -- Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson of Indiana and Ben Wallace of Detroit were suspended indefinitely by the NBA on Saturday for taking part in one of the ugliest brawls in U.S. sports history, a fight with fans that commissioner David Stern called ``shocking, repulsive and inexcusable

Waran · Post by **Waran** » November 20, 2004, 7:06 pm

xZiBiT wrote: On another note, I find it ludicrous that all the ESPN experts blame this on the fans. The crowd and energy was at amazing levels after the Wallace-Artest altercation. All Artest had to do was leave it alone and go to the dressing room because the security guards would have sorted out who the beer chucker just like they do at every other sport venue I have been to. Chucking stuff onto they field of play is not limited to this game, I've been to Bengals, Reds, Red Wings, and Lions games and the same stuff happens when emotions get heated.

Look at it from the other side though, the fans aren't entirely innocent in this one. If Detroit fans, including the one in the Piston's jersey from the video, would have stayed off the floor and in the stands, it might not have created or added to the riotous frenzy that ensued and not created the outlet for the Pacer to deck the living hell out of him for approaching him to instigate a fight on the court. The fans might not have felt the need to defend their players, or their fans that were attacked if they had stayed away from the other team.

There's the same attitude in wrestling. Its fake I know, but there have been instances where drunk fans have entered the ring or jumped the barracade to approach the wrestlers "where they work." The wrestlers then proceeded to kick the living crap out of the idiot. There's a line that has to be respected. Once a fan or athlete crosses that line, all bets are off. If you were a player and approached by a fan of another team during that, wouldn't you feel a bit threatened and immediately lookout for yourself?

I know some people are passionate about their team and seeing one of your own flagrantly fouled would suck and make people livid, but hell, when someone makes a cheapshot against a baseball, football or hockey player, you don't see the hometown fans run on to the field to confront the offending player. Granted, basketball fans are much much more close to the action than the other 3 sports mentioned, but wow. Isn't there some sort of law in basketball venues that is similar to baseball that it is against the law to enter the playing field?

Regardless, both the fans and the players are at fault here. I hope the players involved serve their non-paid suspensions for a very long time for this. They should have stayed out of the stands like you said and just walked out. I also hope the fans involved are identified and dealt with accordingly. Both sides should pay the consequences of their actions.

Coatlicue [KoE] · Post by **Coatlicue [KoE]** » November 20, 2004, 7:16 pm

*edit....posted by xunil...coatie needs to log out

*
Any time that a fan becomes part of the game by going onto the court or throwing something on the court, I find it hard to defend them against anything a player does to them. At the same time, I find it hard to defend a player that retaliates in the stands.

I guess that's why I voted for placing the blame on both sides, although I tend to think that the escalationof this incident is more the fault of the fans in this case (read: you don't throw shit at pissed off athletes twice your size idiot).

You're dreaming if they are only getting 1-2 games a piece. I would not be surprised to see some of these players being suspended for 10+ games. Hell, Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis got 2 games each for a preseason fight that only involved players on the court. This story is getting national attention, and the NBA will not let the players off that easy.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 20, 2004, 7:24 pm

I do agree that any fan that took cheap shots and/or threw chairs, etc should be liable for their actions. Fans that struck players in self defense obviously, should not have action taken against them.

Fans can be assholes. Take the Texas/Oakland player/fan incident last season in baseball or even go back to the Dodgers/Cubs incident where players swarmed into the stands.... essentially the same thing on a broad level.

That said a player should NEVER attack a fan in the stands. They are told this time and time again, yet it happens in all sports. Hey, even 'superstars' are human and words or actions can spark the same emotions as anyone else.

Yeah, yeah, fuck them. Hey, it sucks that fans can treat you bad, but that is part of the biz, tough shit. I have been unfair in the past in my character judgement towards NBA players. However, when it comes to this kind of shit, I treat it as any other sport. Sure, not all pro sports players are assholes... it only takes a few (in this case more than a few) jerkoffs to make quality players look bad...

What is next though? This season has been pretty impressive so far:

Drug busts
Dog fighting
Rap albums made to talk shit about other players
Melee with fans...

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » November 20, 2004, 7:55 pm

At the point in time were Artest was struck, that was the only drink that I saw lobbed at the court and at that point there were no fans on the court. When Artest lost it and I mean lost it is when all hell broke loose in the stands. You get to see limited replay on T.V. you were not there and IMO of being in the stands at the Palace with my family, if Artest had not went into the stands, it wouldn't have escalated into the bruhaha it was. When Artest went into the stands, many people fled the area as their were many children in the arena for the children's Chauncey Billups jersey giveaway on a Piston's family night. I thought he was going to get the idiot that threw the drink but he walked right past the guy and attacked a innocent one.

Fans get rowdy and throw beer and trash at many sporting events. And in this case it is my belief that it would not have escalted if Artest had let the authorities handle it. If he would have the guy would have been pointed out and arrested but now Artest's actions have harmed his team's chances of winning by bringing Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson with him.

Ben Wallace may have over-reacted to a hard foul by Artest, but I will not forget that Artest is the same guy who hip-tossed Ben Wallace in a regular season game last year while his back was turned going up for a rebound(he got a flagrant foul forthat) and also threw a cheap shot elbow into Rip Hamilton's face last year in the Conference Finals(also a flagrant). Artest was lucky no one has come after him up to this point in his career with all the cheap shots he has dished out so far. This time he does it and someone stands up to him and he runs away until he finds someone more his size (i.e. some a foot shorter and 100 pounds less than him)

Thess · Post by **Thess** » November 20, 2004, 8:07 pm

I'm sorry but they should get more then a 1-2 game suspension. In 1997, the Knicks got in a fight with the heat. The Knicks were stung especially hard because the NBA has a rule calling for an automatic one-game suspension for any player leaving the bench during an altercation.

Ward got hit, and he even got suspended for it. Most of the players were trying to break the fight up - and they got suspended for it. I'd be surprised if most of the players didn't get suspended for atleast 1 game.

As to the pacers who went into the stands, yeah - I understand how Artest could get mad and it could evolve into what it did, still - as a professional basketball player, you know better then to lose your cool, you know the rules.

I'd be surprised if Artest and the other pacers who were in the stands got less then a 5 game suspension.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » November 20, 2004, 8:16 pm

Waran wrote:
If Detroit fans, including the one in the Piston's jersey from the video, would have stayed off the floor and in the stands, it might not have created or added to the riotous frenzy that ensued and not created the outlet for the Pacer to deck the living hell out of him for approaching him to instigate a fight on the court.

No one was on the floor until Artest went into the crowd, I was no more than fifty feet away from the Pacer's bench and about 10 security were holding down the baseline. Only after Artest and Jackson went into the crowd which drew the remaining security from our area to the melee did fans get onto the court. I only saw five or six people who were fans on the court. The rest were Palace employees at least according to their dress attire. Then Artest came back to the floor by his bench and clocked the fan who got in his face. Then the Pacer's coach jumped on the guy and started wailing on him after Artest leveled him. Then security got involved with the fans as Jackson and Artest were escorted out. Then as security was wrestling with them here comes Jermaine O'Neal flying in with a sucker punch. And then therewasa surge to get near the Pacer's tunnel where they showered them and threw stuff at them. I'm not saying that the fans were blameless in this one i'm saying that the reason it escalated into a riot was that Artest went into the stands to attack people. Sometimes fans throw shitat players its not an uncommon occurance especially at football games. Cleveland fans always used to throw snowballs at opposing players. And so have Eagle fans for that matter. Alcohol and emotions at sporting events just don't mix and its always up to the athlete to turn the other cheek. Going into the stands and attacking fans should never be an option and most athletes are taught that from the beginning.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » November 20, 2004, 8:22 pm

One of problems was, usually when you are at a basketball game and your team is getting killed, people leave creating open seats for other fans to come down and sit in. I'd be pretty surprised if they didn't start inforcing that you keep your seat the entire game.

Waran · Post by **Waran** » November 20, 2004, 8:23 pm

Like I said earlier, I am in no way defending what the players did. Going up in the stands was a stupid choice and one that should have never happened.

Both sides contributed to what happened.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 20, 2004, 8:44 pm

IMO of being in the stands at the Palace with my family, if Artest had not went into the stands, it wouldn't have escalated into the bruhaha it was.

Of course if the idiotic drunk "fan" hadn't thrown the beer he wouldn't have gone up into the stands and none of it would have happened. With the adrenaline pumping like these guys have I am not surprised it happened.

And yes I said "fan" because no real sports fan would do this. Fucking moron should be banned from all sporting events.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 20, 2004, 9:05 pm

There is nothing that justifies a player going into the stands(maybe to thwart a kidnapping or take out a crazed sniper fan). 1-2 game suspension? Fuck no. 10 games? Nope. The entire season? HELL YES. Make an example out of these fucking miscreants. Let Artest make his retarded CD and let the others take up a hobby. Dog fighting anyone?

Leagues have been too easy on professional athletes for far too long. Time to put the hammer down and make the others think twice before flipping out.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 20, 2004, 9:50 pm

I'd be pretty pissed as well if a fan threw a full beer on me.

Fans have no right to do anything to the players. If the NBA players want to brawl, it's part of the entertainment...watch or leave. Just like the WWF.

I blame the fans. I also blame Ben Wallace as no matter how bad a foul is, you don't see Shaq getting all immature and pushing people in the face. Artest doesn't deserve the bulk of the blame in this one, just part of it.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » November 20, 2004, 9:59 pm

Kelshara wrote:
IMO of being in the stands at the Palace with my family, if Artest had not went into the stands, it wouldn't have escalated into the bruhaha it was.
Of course if the idiotic drunk "fan" hadn't thrown the beer he wouldn't have gone up into the stands and none of it would have happened. With the adrenaline pumping like these guys have I am not surprised it happened.

And yes I said "fan" because no real sports fan would do this. Fucking moron should be banned from all sporting events.

All I'm saying is that Artest should have had the restaint to let security handle it. Drunken fans are always throwing debris at sporting events onto the field yet rarely do the players react by going into the stands and attacking people. A player should never go into the stands. A plastic cup filled with beer is not as life threatening as say the entire student body rushing the field after a upset in college football or basketball. And then students rushing the field at a football game and heckling opposing players does not give those players the right to cold-cock someone.

Waran · Post by **Waran** » November 20, 2004, 10:56 pm

So if you were the player, and a rival fan from the other team comes onto your court where you make your living, with a look in his eye of anger and intent to attack you, do you hope that security gets to him before he hits you? Hope to dodge out of the way before he gets near you? Hope that he doesn't have a weapon stashed somewhere?

I'd drop the guy as hard and fast as I could to protect myself.

It goes both ways, players should NOT go to the stands and the fans shouldn't go on the court.

Post by **Sylvus** » November 20, 2004, 11:21 pm

Artest went into the stands before any fans came onto the court.

Wallace shouldn't have pushed Artest, and might deserve a suspension for a game or two, but Artest went way across the line.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 21, 2004, 12:54 am

A player should never go into the stands. A plastic cup filled with beer is not as life threatening as say the entire student body rushing the field after a upset in college football or basketball.

Of course, they are considering banning the storming of the field etc. And a plastic cup can easily damage your eye, which will end your career. And I bet your story would be different if the team roles were reversed here.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 21, 2004, 12:58 am

to the answer the poll.

the players. more specifically Wallace. the shove to Artest started everything. Artest didn't want anything to do with it and i don't blame him. Wallace is a big dude!

however, Artest could have been more professioal after walking away. he is a "professional" athlete afterall. they all are actually.

Wallace suspended for 5 games and a hefty fine. atleast 6 figures.

Artest and Jackson need suspended for the remainder of the season with a fine equal to 1 year salary.

anyone leaving the bench, 1 game suspension and any fans who were out of line banned from the palace for the remainder of teh season. mostly the dude on the floor and the people throwing chairs and beer at the players.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 21, 2004, 1:09 am

Yeah actually, after further reflection and listening to analysis on the radio/reading the posts here, I seriously think Artest and Jackson need to be suspended for the rest of the season.

The bottom, bottom line is... If Artest and Jackson don't go into the stands, the rest of the shit never happens.

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » November 21, 2004, 2:22 am

I wanna see that punk in the Detroit jersey go against Holyfield! Hell that guy took a few from Artest and that other fool... knockout punches... but he got up!

How much you think he will sue for and win,... even though he is a jackass fan who spilled out on the court?

Damn, I have to go scalp some Wizards tickets now... when does the Heat come to town? I'm gonna go taunt Shaq and see if that fucker has a few million he can part with.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 21, 2004, 2:44 am

I would suggest a smaller, but still wealthy player trollie!

If you do decide on the Shaq, I would suggest a helmet!

I am thinking sprewell or iverson, they are not so large and are much more volatile, and likely to fall for the ol' beer on the head trick.

Then again, beer is so expensive...I would suggest a nice warm cup of pee.

That'll piss em off real good!

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » November 21, 2004, 2:55 am

Waran wrote:So if you were the player, and a rival fan from the other team comes onto your court where you make your living, with a look in his eye of anger and intent to attack you, do you hope that security gets to him before he hits you? Hope to dodge out of the way before he gets near you? Hope that he doesn't have a weapon stashed somewhere?

I'd drop the guy as hard and fast as I could to protect myself.

It goes both ways, players should NOT go to the stands and the fans shouldn't go on the court.

Artest and Jackson were in the stands long before any fans got onto the court. The reason fans were able to get on the court is because the security by the Pacers bench went into the stands to get Artest and Jackson. Then Artest came back to the court and those security personnel were stuck trying to help the other Pacer's out of the stands. Then all hell broke loose between Artest and 4 or 5 fans on the court. That was it 4 or 5 people on the court that were not Palace employees. Its not like the 20,000 fans that storm the field after a college football game.

Sure the guy deserved to get decked for going out there but he never threw a punch or fought back against Artest. Artest got him, Jermaine O'Neal got him, and a Pacer's coach got him. At the end of the day, that guy will have quite a chunk of change if and when he sues.

On the security aspect, it took twenty minutes to get into the Palace through security and we were one of the first ones in line. They were thoroughly checking for weapons and contraband at the door. No one can blame the security for this incident as no one could have predicted or staffed for a riot in the stands. If I could have predicted it, I would have just stayed home because the display was dispicable for the city of Detroit and the Piston's franchise.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 21, 2004, 3:04 am

If the guy who got hit sues and wins it will personify everything that is wrong and pathetic with this country and lawsuits.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » November 21, 2004, 3:07 am

Kelshara wrote:And a plastic cup can easily damage your eye, which will end your career. And I bet your story would be different if the team roles were reversed here.

No, its not because I'm a homer, if your a professional athlete, you should act professional and show proper restraint and let the appropriate people handle the situation.

If Ben Wallace and Richard Hamilton beat up on pacer's fans I would want to see them punished severly as well and it would be their own damned fault.

Frivilous lawsuits happen all the time. Artest holds more responsibilty for his actions than McDonald's making you eat fast food and get fat.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 21, 2004, 3:48 am

Ben Wallace should be suspended for the season. Everyone else is ok. He's the one that lost his cool after being fouled. He needs to take some lessons from other big men about how to not lose your grip after someone fouls you.

We have some Artest haters here. There's an excellent chance some of us would have gone into the stands as well after getting nailed with a full beer. That fan must have thought he was pretty cool for about 2 seconds until he saw Artest coming at him full steam. He got what he deserved.

Again, fans need to keep out of the game. It doesn't matter if there's an all out brawl on the court. They can't be throwing shit at the players. Ben Wallace, for overreacting to a foul by pushing Artest in the face, and the Detroit Fans are the ones to blame here.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 21, 2004, 3:59 am

xZiBiT wrote:Sure the guy deserved to get decked for going out there but he never threw a punch or fought back against Artest. Artest got him, Jermaine O'Neal got him, and a Pacer's coach got him. At the end of the day, that guy will have quite a chunk of change if and when he sues.

That guy won't get shit. Look at the back of your ticket. Most NBA tickets say that if you go on the floor, you're trespassing. Additionally, why do you think he went down to the floor? To smoke a peace pipe? Not hardly. That guy absolutely got what he deserved. Artest and Jackson's actions were inexcusable, but their actions are in no way an excuse for the actions of the Detroit fans who's mob mentality made a bad situation worse.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » November 21, 2004, 5:12 am

Kelshara wrote:If the guy who got hit sues and wins it will personify everything that is wrong and pathetic with this country and lawsuits.

I think having short-fused retards on a multi-million dollar payroll is what is wrong here. Blaming the country won't vindicate the most troubled 'professional' sport on the continent.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 21, 2004, 7:07 am

Kelshara wrote:If the guy who got hit sues and wins it will personify everything that is wrong and pathetic with this country and lawsuits.

if Kerry had been elected none of this would have happened!!1

Crav · Post by **Crav** » November 21, 2004, 7:07 am

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to how long the suspensions are going to be? Most articles I've read are talking 10-20 games for Jackson and O'Neal and season long for Artest.

I don't know if Stern has the balls to pull the trigger on a season long suspension, but if it's ever going to happen it's going to be in this situation.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » November 21, 2004, 12:22 pm

Artest needs to be banned for life, he has proven time and time again that he is a scumbag. How many incidents does it take before the NBA realizes that those kids sitting in the stands are the victims, regardless of ignorant players and fans, it was those kids sitting there crying that means he needs to be lifetime banned.

Between him acting like an animal and the fans recipricating, it was an ugly mess, but he was decidedly the main problem, I guess that 2 inch penis of his means that even though he is making millions he has to run into the stands to confront some loser making 12k who talks smack.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » November 21, 2004, 12:41 pm

In this order:

1. The NBA
2. The Players
3. The fans/security

The NBA - There is no physical boundry seperating the players from the fans, besides a row or two of kindergarten chairs and tables. The time for this is over. It should be much more difficult for the two sides to come into contact with one another, no matter the situation. This shit still happens in hockey, too (although not to the same extent, usually).

Players - A lot of NBA players not only have the mentality of children, but they really *are* children. With drafting ages being lowered so that some are going from High School, it's not surprising that they have no self-restraint. If there was a physical barrier in place and players still went into the stands, slap a 95% salary fine on them for 82 games, and donate the $ to a charity that deals with abuse.

If a fan comes on the court, I agree with you Noel - they deserve to get their clock cleaned. I'm not a fan of violence, but after the Monica Seles incident, there is no way for a player to know if a fan might be carrying a shiv, or something equivalent.

Security, wtf. - I swear one of the guys who was getting thrashed was a 60 year-old beer guy. Sure he's an idiot, but where was security? Christ. You can't really use pepper spray in an open air auditorium like that, but taser those fuckers. Fans should be given a disclaimer when they come to games that if this shit happens they will be prosocuted to the fullest extent of the law. This isn't the internet and they aren't anonomyous.

Badabidi · Post by **Badabidi** » November 21, 2004, 2:40 pm

Winnow wrote:Ben Wallace should be suspended for the season. Everyone else is ok. He's the one that lost his cool after being fouled. He needs to take some lessons from other big men about how to not lose your grip after someone fouls you.

We have some Artest haters here. There's an excellent chance some of us would have gone into the stands as well after getting nailed with a full beer. That fan must have thought he was pretty cool for about 2 seconds until he saw Artest coming at him full steam. He got what he deserved.

Did you even watch the game or the replays for that matter? Artest went after a different fan then the one who pelted him with the drink. But obviously he got what he deserved

Wallace deserving a suspension for shoving Artest back after a cheap foul makes it appropriate to warrant him a season suspension? Players in sports shove each other all the time, Artest was just being a pussy about it and taking his rage out on someone who couldn't have kicked his face in. You need to lay off the crack, or better yet Artest's jock.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » November 21, 2004, 2:49 pm

You don't really see if a fan threw somethimg at Artest or not when he went into the crowd. Until they have another video showing what happened at that moment, people should lay off the "suspend him for a season" thing even if he is an ass.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 21, 2004, 2:58 pm

i am not an Artest hater, but any NBA player that runs into the stands and starts beating on fans needs, aleast, a season long suspension.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » November 21, 2004, 5:34 pm

Look at this from the NBA's perspective. The league office's constituency is not the players, it's the owners and by extension the fans who foot the bill. Clearly, the NBA is going to come down hard on the Pacers to appease fans apalled by the growing thug culture among NBA players.

Hence: Artest is gone for the season, O'Neal and Jackson are gone for 10-20 games, and in an effort to appear even-handed they will give Wallace a 5-10 game suspension which he probably would never have gotten if Artest never went in the stands.

As for the Pistons organization and fans, the favorite suggestion I've heard yet is forcing next spring's Pacers/Pistons rematch to be played in front of empty stands. That would get the owners' attention and would do more to ensure the security of players (which clearly broke down in Detroit) than the unenthusiastic prosecution of individiual fans. Again, however, Stern's contituency is the league owners and their purses so this probably won't happen.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » November 21, 2004, 5:46 pm

You need to get rid of the alcohol at games, most people can't handle their liquor. If a fan wants to drink and watch the game, he can go into the bar.

VeeshanVault

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