Fish Empathy Project

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 17, 2004, 10:51 am

Words fail me:

Touting tofu chowder and vegetarian sushi as alternatives, animal-rights activists have launched a novel campaign arguing that fish — contrary to stereotype — are intelligent, sensitive animals no more deserving of being eaten than a pet dog or cat.

Yahoo story

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » November 17, 2004, 10:55 am

Who is going to speak up for Tufu dammit. Tofu is a living thing and no one should just blindly eat it without thinking of its feelings.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 17, 2004, 10:58 am

Fishing hurts

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 17, 2004, 11:00 am

fruits and vegetables have feelings too!

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 17, 2004, 11:02 am

I recall them whining a while back that fly spray was possibly inhumane because the spasming they were doing after their nervous system was rapidly destroyed might be the result of pain... tossers. Lucky the weren't around while I was pulling their wings off as a kid

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 17, 2004, 12:31 pm

"pain" and "suffering" are completely different things. The ability to sense pain - or nociception - is something that is most certainly present in fish. The ability to "suffer" arises from higher order processing. Probably some of what a human would constitute as suffering encompasses neural events in the brainstem, so certainly those aspects would be shared in fish. But i am not sure if the fish brain has an amygdala at all, let alone prefrontal cortex with any substantial convolutions, so it would be difficult to argue that you could conclusively say it "suffers". The caveat is that I certainly cannot propose the 'wiring diagram' for "suffering" in humans, so it could be more primitive than we think (or i am aware of).

as for insects, that is a misunderstanding of invertebrate neurobiology that would suggest a bug is suffering because of the spasms. Even a chicken can run around the farm for a few minutes with its head cut off. The body isnt suffering, (the head might be), but it is running around the yard.

Insects have a very distributed nervous system. A lot of the processing for each body segment is done locally. The head coordinates the majority of sensory input (visual, chemical, some hearing), and overarching behavior determination, but once the "marching orders" are made, the marching is processed locally. Basically there is a "mini-brain" or ganglion at each pair of legs in a bug. Insects being relatively advanced, have their thoracic ganglia merged into one larger ganglion (the body segments have condensed as they evovled - look at a caterpillar then a butterfly's leg locations). The caterpillers are spaced out more distinctly.

anyway, the "head" of the bug may have "died" and the leg segment hasnt quite yet died.

i was in a lab once where a guy was just bored and he severd the neural cord between the head and 2nd body segment of a Manduca caterpiller, then stiched him up. The caterpiller literally wandered around aimlessly and crashed into shit. He then started eating his ass. I thought it was funny.

anyway, my "moral" stance on the suffering of food items is that getting killed probably sucks, and undue suffereing certainly should be avoided (i'm moving more in the direction of not buying industrial farm meat), but tough shit for the fish. swim faster!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 17, 2004, 12:47 pm

Voronwë wrote:The caterpiller literally wandered around aimlessly and crashed into shit. He then started eating his ass.

Must have been a ranger-piller.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 17, 2004, 12:53 pm

Tyek wrote:Who is going to speak up for Tufu dammit. Tofu is a living thing and no one should just blindly eat it without thinking of its feelings.

Have a TOFU TURKEY™ this Thanksgiving!

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » November 17, 2004, 1:33 pm

That pic reminds me of something that really bothers me about vegetarians. They don't condone eating meat, but they will still eat something in the shape of a turkey or will eat meat-like foods.

To me, its like someone saying kiddie porn is sick, but then wacking it to animated kiddie porn (because its not "real").

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 17, 2004, 1:38 pm

Personally I think vegetarianism is a liberal conceit that we can afford to condone in times of plenty. If the shit hits the fan and humanity goes into crisis mode, I'll bet the only vegetarians you see then are dead ones.

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » November 17, 2004, 1:42 pm

Vegetarians taste like tofu chicken...

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » November 17, 2004, 1:44 pm

Yeah that's a good analogy.. Eating a tofu burger vs kiddie porn.

But i am not sure if the fish brain has an amygdala at all

Those guys in Plane of Fear used to frighten me.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 17, 2004, 1:53 pm

Tenuvil wrote:
Tyek wrote:Who is going to speak up for Tufu dammit. Tofu is a living thing and no one should just blindly eat it without thinking of its feelings.
Have a TOFU TURKEY™ this Thanksgiving!

That was the funniest fucking Everybody Loves Raymond episode.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » November 17, 2004, 2:06 pm

Don;t shit where you eat ... wait, that is a different agrument.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 17, 2004, 4:01 pm

Lalanae wrote:That pic reminds me of something that really bothers me about vegetarians. They don't condone eating meat, but they will still eat something in the shape of a turkey or will eat meat-like foods.

To me, its like someone saying kiddie porn is sick, but then wacking it to animated kiddie porn (because its not "real").

Isn't that the same as someone condoning killing people and then playing any game that you kill people in? Shame on you for playing EQ, Wow, Grand Theft Auto, etc etc etc...unless you don't kill the humans or steal cars...or or or!