a_political_thread_01

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » October 30, 2004, 2:07 am

cons red to ring wing fanatics and morons alike.

I am President George Dubya Bush. Here's a short list of what i have did in the past few years.

I attacked and took over two countries.

I spent the US surplus and bankrupted the US treasury.

I shatterd the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy)

I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

In my first year in office I set the all-time record for the most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

I set the record for most campaign raising trips by any president in US history.

In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.

I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period.

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any other president in US history.

I set the record for fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of TV.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.

I cut health-care benefits for war veterans.

I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any one person in the history of mankind.

I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US histiry (the poorest mulitmillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her).

I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy.

I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community.

I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the US.

I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history (Reagan was hard to beat, but I did it!!!)

I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations to remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

I removed more checks and balances and have the least congressional oversight of any presidential administration in US history.

I renderd the entire United Nations irrelevant.

I withdrew from the World Court Of Law.

I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations elections inspectors access during the 2002 elections.

I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for the most corporate campaign donations.

The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of EnronCorporation)

I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1).

I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stabilty.

I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated US laws by not selling their huge investments in corporations that later made bids for gov. contracts.

I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the Civil War.

I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down.

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available).

I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war. I refused to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my father's library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records of any SEC investigation into my insider trading or bankrupted companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

All minutes of meetings of any public corporations for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

so before you vote for this idiot. think please.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 30, 2004, 2:12 am

And what is truly sad is that close to half the people in America, including some on this board, are Stupid enough to re-elect that man.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » October 30, 2004, 3:04 am

But Kerry looks like Herman Monster

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 30, 2004, 3:41 am

Yes he does but...

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » October 30, 2004, 10:51 am

As i said, credit is needed where it is deserved, the bush re-election team members are brilliant. If they can have a man with only half the resume hold an approval rating of over 15% they deserve a medal

but...but...john kerry might have shot himself once....he had brown hair, now he has GREY HAIR!!! where does this flip flopping end!

Just to reiterate this, I liked Bush four years ago and supported him over Al Gore until I opened my eyes about a year later to realize what a miserable failure his presidency has been

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » October 30, 2004, 11:11 am

I actually wonder how much more damage he could have done if he had not taken all that vacation time.

Rivera Bladestrike · October 30, 2004, 11:40 am

I wonder if something like this was read during the debates... Instead of answering a question, Kerry just read something like this for two minutes.

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » October 30, 2004, 12:27 pm

nah. that'd be pretty dirty. but it would get like 1% of the undecided i bet and maybe some of the slightly bush voters.

Rivera Bladestrike · October 30, 2004, 12:36 pm

you don't think that bashing someone's military record that actually served in Vietnam isn't dirty?

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » October 30, 2004, 2:38 pm

Dont want to sepnt the 5 hours it would take to explain why almost every one of those one liners is an enormous effort at spin doctoring, but Ken Lay had very little, if anything, to do with the Enron collapse. They are trying him because they need a scapegoat. It should also be noted that Enron gave 50% moremoney to democrats than republicans. . .but whatever.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 30, 2004, 3:40 pm

Avestan wrote:...Ken Lay had very little, if anything, to do with the Enron collapse. They are trying him because they need a scapegoat.

what the fuck are you fucking talking about?

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » October 30, 2004, 3:41 pm

wasnt this the same list/resume/speech thing posted 4 or 5 times already?

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » October 30, 2004, 3:56 pm

Yeah i bet it has, but hey, its still pretty much true.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » October 30, 2004, 5:19 pm

Except for the un-confirmed AWOL one, the facts listed on there are 100% true.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » October 31, 2004, 12:05 am

"I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market. "

Not true. Individuals don't set the record for a stock market drop, companies do.

Further, yes, was leading the United States at the time at the largest point drop in history, but not the largest percentage drop, which was 1929.

So, like so many of these types of lists, it stretches the truth when it doesn't need to. If it could be complete about the facts, they would shine a bad enough light on him. All a person has to do is find one discrepancy or possible error and he whole list's validity comes into question.

But what do I know, i want the man dead, anyway.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 31, 2004, 12:50 am

I am Moozilla and:

"I placed right below a box of rocks on an IQ test"
"I fertilize the stupid tree"
"I fell for the free TV scam on the internet"

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » October 31, 2004, 11:57 am

I am certainly not fond of Bush, I think overall he has been a fairly lousy president and there are all sorts of valid criticisms of his administration. Of course, I am far from sure that Kerry will be any better. Personally I don't intend on voting for either of them.

That being said, this list is pretty much garbage. There are a few valid points in there but by and large they are buried under what appears to be an attempt to throw together as much stuff as possible to make a big list, whether or not the points really make much sense.

A few examples

I attacked and took over two countries.

Of course, a pretty large majority think that one of those was justified. But two is a bigger number and sounds better so why not lump them together?

I spent the US surplus and bankrupted the US treasury.

The U.S. treasury is not bankrupt. Furthermore, in stating it as him spending the surplus they make it sound like we had money in the bank and Bush spent it all. When Bush came into office, we did indeed have a surplus for the last few budgets, meaning that the government was taking in more money than it was spending. But even though that was the case, the government was still in debt. 5.6 trillion dollars in debt, compared to the surpluses which totaled 600ish billion over 4 years.

Is it good that we went back to paying out more money than we were taking in? No. But it is hardly uncommon either, given that before the few years of surplus we had almost 30 straight years of deficits, and they predominated going back even further than that. There is also too much focus in my opinion on whether or not we are in deficit. The more important measure is how much is government spending overall. The government could be spending 75 percent of GDP and if they were taxing that amount there would be no deficit, but it is unlikely many would be happy with that. Spending has been something Bush has been bad at too; it has gone up significantly under him. Including large increases in domestic discretionary spending, which is hard to make even tenuous excuses about being for the war on terror. He also added a big new entitlement in the form of the drug benefit, which will make its presence felt in budgets for a long time to come. Those are valid criticisms of Bush, hysterical pronouncements of him bankrupting the treasury are not.

I shatterd the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy)

Actually, it’s not really that hard at all. There are a great many points in this list that have the same basic problem this point does. Over time, inflation decreases the amount each dollar is worth in relation to what it was worth. Also, the economy itself gets larger over time. This means any record value involving nominal dollars is relatively easy to break, and largely irrelevant.

This link http://www.steveverdon.com/archives/eco ... 01832.html has a couple of nice graphs showing the deficits stack up as a percentage of gdp. The 2004 deficit comes in 12th. Even if you remove the wartime deficits it still comes up as 8th.

Once again, I am not thrilled with the government spending more than it is taking in and I am even less thrilled about the level of spending. But arguments based on the current nominal value when looking at historical data are pretty much worthless.

I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

Again, this is also typical of a fair number of points in the list that share a common problem. Specifically, trying to assume that correlation equals causation. Just because something happened during Bush's administration doesn't necessarily mean he had anything to do with it. Government does of course influence the economy, and the president has a part in the policies of the overall government. But the government does not control the economy and for the most part policy changes from the government take some time to be actually felt in the economy. I don't remember exactly when the stock market drop occurred, but the recession took place in 2001, pretty early in Bush's administration (there is some debate about if the recession actually started back in 2000, before Bush came into office). It came too early for any policy Bush enacted early in his administration to really have any effect on it. For the record, I don't think it was Clinton's fault either. To whatever extent the government was "responsible" for the 2001 recession outside the normal fluctuations of the business cycle it was likely because of the long-term accumulation of government policy and regulation over a much greater timeframe.

Of course, this point also has trouble with the same fallacy as I pointed out before about the biggest deficit. When the Dow is at an all time nominal high, it is a lot easier to have a record drop.

In my first year in office I set the all-time record for the most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did).

Personally I wish all of our elected officials took a lot more time off. The less time they spend meddling with our lives the better.

I presided over the biggest energy crisis in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

I presume they are talking about the California energy crisis here. California's energy problems were already well established back before Bush took office. They were also largely the result of bad state regulatory policy. It would seem to me with that being the case then it was properly a matter for the state of California to handle and Bush shouldn't have intervened.

I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other US president in history.

Laws and executive orders can't amend the constitution. They can be unconstitutional, and if they are, they might even be judged so by the courts (all too many aren't in my opinion).

so before you vote for this idiot. think please.

Before you vote, try to find some better discussions of the issues than this silly list.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » October 31, 2004, 12:11 pm

/bow Chemee

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » October 31, 2004, 12:25 pm

Akaran_D wrote:/bow Chemee

Out of curiosity have you made up your mind regarding this election yet?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » October 31, 2004, 12:32 pm

No, I haven't.
I'm leaning towards Kerry, but I'm probably not going to be sure until I actually tag the box on the 2nd.

edit:
Further, the reason for the bow was not out of any 'kissing Bush ass' respect. I've been wodnering what the 'other side of the story' was on some of those comments. Remember, the truth isn't what one person in a crowd says or does, it's the grey area that falls between what everyone says.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 31, 2004, 1:37 pm

Excellent post Chmee. Always good to see when someone uses critical reasoning to pull through teh spin.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » October 31, 2004, 1:38 pm

Tenuvil wrote:
Avestan wrote:...Ken Lay had very little, if anything, to do with the Enron collapse. They are trying him because they need a scapegoat.
what the fuck are you fucking talking about?

There is not a shred of evidence that Ken Lay knew about the accounting irregularities at all. I have read a ton about the situation because I had two very good friends laid off from Enron.

The guys who should be strung up are the ones that are copping plea deals to get Ken Lay.

He is just the most public figure, thus, the target of the lawsuits. He will not go to jail.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » October 31, 2004, 3:16 pm

Actually the taxpayers do take the bill for a presidents vacation, I read it in some conservative book bashing Clinton if it counts.

Kargyle · Post by **Kargyle** » October 31, 2004, 7:39 pm

I live in Houston, so I've heard quite a bit about the Enron debacle. From what I have read, Ken Lay left Enron, and most of the illegal activities began after he was gone. He then returned as CEO, and learned of the problems. He then decided to try to fix the problems, rather than going immediately to the SEC. That is of course his side of the story. The other side being that he was the criminal mastermind, and purposefully ruined hundreds of peoples lives. The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between. I'm by no means calling Ken Lay innocent, but I certainly hope the courts do not railroad an innocent man because the public wants their blood.

As far as the list goes, it is typical political exageration, and is hardly worth commenting on.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 2, 2004, 11:05 am

Remember, the truth isn't what one person in a crowd says or does, it's the grey area that falls between what everyone says.

Umm....? The truth might well be what one person says over another. The other might just be lying.

Lying is often the case used by people to defend whatever retarded issue or action they happen to agree with while being spun into an acceptable "truth".

Unfortunately, for the gullible to believe this "truth": they are in fact being lied to, and as such, should stop being naive and take responsibility for their lack of knowledge in said issue (if it is important to them)

However, given the liars throwing people off, a 'grey area' comes into effect. This does nothing more than distorts reality in favour of the liar.

This is why lying is bad.

This applies all the way from big politics to interpsersonal relations (friends)

Nothing personal Ak, I just can't agree that there aren't in fact some people who tell the truth.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » November 2, 2004, 11:10 am

I'm not refering to 'truth' as in someone saying the grass is green.
I'm refering to 'truth' as in what actualyl happened, or what the cause of an issue is. There are at least two sides to every story, each being given based on what you percieve to be factual based on your life experience.

That better?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 2, 2004, 11:14 am

There may be two sides, often there is one truth.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » November 2, 2004, 11:17 am

Right, and that truth is found in the grainy details of both sides.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 2, 2004, 11:35 am

Avestan wrote:The guys who should be strung up are the ones that are copping plea deals to get Ken Lay.

He is just the most public figure, thus, the target of the lawsuits. He will not go to jail.

While my wife is much more versed in this case as she was the Dow Jones energy reporter(and even has part of a book written) at the time this occured, Skilling was, in fact, the real culprit. Problem with nabbing him, though, is that the man never left a paper trail (or it was shredded I guess heh) and signed nothing. He authorized almost nothing with his own signature. He's almost like the jenga block sitting on top of the pile that you can't topple.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 2, 2004, 12:22 pm

Chidoro wrote:
Avestan wrote:The guys who should be strung up are the ones that are copping plea deals to get Ken Lay.

He is just the most public figure, thus, the target of the lawsuits. He will not go to jail.
While my wife is much more versed in this case as she was the Dow Jones energy reporter(and even has part of a book written) at the time this occured, Skilling was, in fact, the real culprit. Problem with nabbing him, though, is that the man never left a paper trail (or it was shredded I guess heh) and signed nothing. He authorized almost nothing with his own signature. He's almost like the jenga block sitting on top of the pile that you can't topple.

It all comes down to corporate oversight. Lay and Skilling were ultimately the only ones who could bring a halt to the corruption...but neither really wanted to as they were enriching themselves massively from the profits.

One could argue that Bernie Ebbers wasn't the person at fault for Worldcom either, but he was the leader of the company and as such had a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders and customers. So it is with Lay and Skilling.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 2, 2004, 12:41 pm

Tenuvil wrote:but neither really wanted to as they were enriching themselves massively from the profits.

My wife spoke with Lay and Fastow et al. save for Skilling (at least in one-on-ones). Every time she recalls it she can't help but thinking that based on their attitudes, they were going to outsmart everyone and truly get away with it. So it's not just that it was so attractive to keep rolling in it, it was that they really felt they were going to skip off scot-free.
Now that's just my wife's recall of it, but she's got a pretty good sense of these things.
I'm not giving Lay a free pass mind you, but he was put up there as "Operation Human Shield".

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 2, 2004, 1:24 pm

fiduciary

wtf is that a word??

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 2, 2004, 1:33 pm

vn_Tanc wrote:
fiduciary
wtf is that a word??

Are there no proper dictionaries in old England then?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 2, 2004, 1:47 pm

We dunt hav nun of thme thnigs matey, prehapz i cann ofer yuo sum tea insteyd?

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 2, 2004, 1:53 pm

pie would be better ~

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 2, 2004, 2:45 pm

I have a pretty good vocabbelary but I've never seen that word before. Still, it's good to get edumacated.
I had a similar episode about 10 years ago when I heard the word "escrow" for the first time.
"wtf that is so a made up word ><"
Anyway