Moore's new book...

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Marbus
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Moore's new book...

Post by Marbus »

Now I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore but I found this to be very moving. I wonder how many of our Soldiers feel this way...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0, ... 18,00.html
Dear Mike, Iraq sucks

Civilian contractors are fleecing taxpayers; US troops don't have proper equipment; and supposedly liberated Iraqis hate them. After the release of Fahrenheit 9/11, Michael Moore received a flood of letters and emails from disillusioned and angry American soldiers serving in Iraq. Here, in an exclusive extract from his new book, we print a selection

Tuesday October 5, 2004
The Guardian

From: RH
To: mike@michaelmoore.com
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2003 4:57 PM
Subject: Iraqi freedom veteran supports you
Dear Mr Moore,
I went to Iraq with thoughts of killing people who I thought were horrible. I was like, "Fuck Iraq, fuck these people, I hope we kill thousands." I believed my president. He was taking care of business and wasn't going to let al Qaeda push us around. I was with the 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry, 3rd Infantry division out of Fort Stewart, Georgia. My unit was one of the first to Baghdad. I was so scared. Didn't know what to think. Seeing dead bodies for the first time. People blown in half. Little kids with no legs. It was overwhelming, the sights, sounds, fear. I was over there from Jan'03 to Aug'03. I hated every minute. It was a daily battle to keep my spirits up. I hate the army and my job. I am supposed to get out next February but will now be unable to because the asshole in the White House decided that now would be a great time to put a stop-loss in effect for the army. So I get to do a second tour in Iraq and be away from those I love again because some guy has the audacity to put others' lives on the line for his personal war. I thought we were the good guys.
From: Michael W
Sent: Tuesday July 13 2004 12.28pm
Subject: Dude, Iraq sucks


My name is Michael W and I am a 30-year-old National Guard infantryman serving in southeast Baghdad. I have been in Iraq since March of 04 and will continue to serve here until March of 05.

In the few short months my unit has been in Iraq, we have already lost one man and have had many injured (including me) in combat operations. And for what? At the very least, the government could have made sure that each of our vehicles had the proper armament to protect us soldiers.

In the early morning hours of May 10, one month to the day from my 30th birthday, I and 12 other men were attacked in a well-executed roadside ambush in south-east Baghdad. We were attacked with small-arms fire, a rocket-propelled grenade, and two well-placed roadside bombs. These roadside bombs nearly destroyed one of our Hummers and riddled my friends with shrapnel, almost killing them. They would not have had a scratch if they had the "Up Armour" kits on them. So where was [George] W [Bush] on that one?

It's just so ridiculous, which leads me to my next point. A Blackwater contractor makes $15,000 [£8,400] a month for doing the same job as my pals and me. I make about $4,000 [£2,240] a month over here. What's up with that?

Beyond that, the government is calling up more and more troops from the reserves. For what? Man, there is a huge fucking scam going on here! There are civilian contractors crawling all over this country. Blackwater, Kellogg Brown & Root, Halliburton, on and on. These contractors are doing everything you can think of from security to catering lunch!

We are spending money out the ass for this shit, and very few of the projects are going to the Iraqi people. Someone's back is getting scratched here, and it ain't the Iraqis'!

My life is left to chance at this point. I just hope I come home alive.

From: Specialist Willy
Sent: Tuesday March 9 2004 1.23pm
Subject: Thank you


Mike, I'd like to thank you for all of the support you're showing for the soldiers here in Iraq. I am in Baghdad right now, and it's such a relief to know that people still care about the lemmings who are forced to fight in this conflict.

It's hard listening to my platoon sergeant saying, "If you decide you want to kill a civilian that looks threatening, shoot him. I'd rather fill out paperwork than get one of my soldiers killed by some raghead." We are taught that if someone even looks threatening we should do something before they do something to us. I wasn't brought up in fear like that, and it's going to take some getting used to.

It's also very hard talking to people here about this war. They don't like to hear that the reason they are being torn away from their families is bullshit, or that their "president" doesn't care about them. A few people here have become quite upset with me, and at one point I was going to be discharged for constantly inciting arguments and disrespect to my commander-in-chief (Dubya). It's very hard to be silenced about this when I see the same 150 people every day just going through the motions, not sure why they are doing it.

[ Willy sent an update in early August ]

People's perceptions of this war have done a complete 180 since we got here. We had someone die in a mortar attack the first week, and ever since then, things have changed completely. Soldiers are calling their families urging them to support John Kerry. If this is happening elsewhere, it looks as if the overseas military vote that Bush is used to won't be there this time around.

From: Kyle Waldman
Sent: Friday February 27 2004 2.35am
Subject: None


As we can all obviously see, Iraq was not and is not an imminent threat to the United States or the rest of the world. My time in Iraq has taught me a little about the Iraqi people and the state of this war-torn, poverty-stricken country.

The illiteracy rate in this country is phenomenal. There were some farmers who didn't even know there was an Operation Iraqi Freedom. This was when I realised that this war was initiated by the few who would profit from it and not for its people. We, as the coalition forces, did not liberate these people; we drove them even deeper into poverty. I don't foresee any economic relief coming soon to these people by the way Bush has already diverted its oil revenues to make sure there will be enough oil for our SUVs.

We are here trying to keep peace when all we have been trained for is to destroy. How are 200,000 soldiers supposed to take control of this country? Why didn't we have an effective plan to rebuild Iraq's infrastructure? Why aren't the American people more aware of these atrocities?

My fiancee and I have seriously looked into moving to Canada as political refugees.

From: Anonymous
Sent: Thursday April 15 2004 12.41am
Subject: From KBR truck driver now in Iraq


Mike, I am a truck driver right now in Iraq. Let me give you this one small fact because I am right here at the heart of it: since I started this job several months ago, 100% (that's right, not 99%) of the workers I am aware of are inflating the hours they claim on their time sheets. There is so much more I could tell you. But the fact is that MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of dollars are being raped from both the American taxpayers and the Iraqi people because of the unbelievable amount of greed and abuse over here. And yes, my conscience does bother me because I am participating in this rip-off.

From: Andrew Balthazor
Sent: Friday August 27 2004 1.53pm
Subject: Iraqi war vet - makes me sound so old


Mr Moore, I am an ex-military intelligence officer who served 10 months in Baghdad; I was the senior intelligence officer for the area of Baghdad that included the UN HQ and Sadr City.

Since Bush exposed my person and my friends, peers, and subordinates to unnecessary danger in a war apparently designed to generate income for a select few in the upper echelon of America, I have become wholeheartedly anti-Bush, to the chagrin of much of my pro-Republican family.

As a "foot soldier" in the "war on terror" I can personally testify that Bush's administration has failed to effectively fight terrorists or the root causes of terror. The White House and the DoD failed to plan for reconstruction of Iraq. Contracts weren't tendered until Feb-Mar of 2003, and the Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance (the original CPA) didn't even come into existence until January 2003. This failure to plan for the "peace" is a direct cause for the insecurity of Iraq today.

Immediately after the "war" portion of the fighting (which really ended around April 9 2003), we should have been prepared to send in a massive reconstruction effort. Right away we needed engineers to diagnose problems, we needed contractors repairing problems, we needed immediate food, water, shelter, and fuel for the Iraqi people, and we needed more security for all of this to work - which we did not have because we did not have enough troops on the ground, and CPA decided to disband the Iraqi army. The former Iraqi police were engaged far too late; a plan should have existed to bring them into the fold right away.

I've left the military. If there is anything I can do to help get Bush out of office, let me know.

From: Anthony Pietsch
Sent: Thursday August 5 2004 6.13pm
Subject: Soldier for sale


Dear Mr Moore, my name is Tony Pietsch, and I am a National Guardsman who has been stationed in Kuwait and Iraq for the past 15 months. Along with so many other guard and reserve units, my unit was put on convoy escorts. We were on gun trucks running from the bottom of Iraq to about two hours above Baghdad.

The Iraqi resistance was insanity. I spent many nights lying awake after mortar rounds had just struck areas nearby, some coming close enough to throw rocks against my tent. I've seen roadside bombs go off all over, Iraqis trying to ram the side of our vehicle. Small children giving us the finger and throwing rocks at the soldiers in the turrets. We were once lost in Baghdad and received nothing but dirty looks and angry gestures for hours.

I have personally been afraid for my life more days than I can count. We lost our first man only a few weeks before our tour was over, but it seems that all is for nothing because all we see is hostility and anger over our being there. They are angry over the abuse scandal and the collateral damages that are always occurring.

I don't know how the rest of my life will turn out, but I truly regret being a 16-year-old kid looking for some extra pocket money and a way to college.

From: Sean Huze
Sent: Sunday March 28 2004 7.56pm
Subject: "Dude, Where's My Country?"


I am an LCPL in the US Marine Corps and veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Mr Moore, please keep pounding away at Bush. I'm not some pussy when it comes to war. However, the position we were put in - fighting an enemy that used women, children, and other civilians as shields; forcing us to choose between firing at "area targets" (nice way of saying firing into crowds) or being killed by the bastards using the crowds for cover - is indescribably horrible.

I saw more than a few dead children littering the streets in Nasiriyah, along with countless other civilians. And through all this, I held on to the belief that it had to be for some greater good.

Months have passed since I've been back home and the unfortunate conclusion I've come to is that Bush is a lying, manipulative motherfucker who cares nothing for the lives of those of us who serve in uniform. Hell, other than playing dress-up on aircraft carriers, what would he know about serving this nation in uniform?

His silence and refusal to speak under oath to the 9/11 Commission further mocks our country. The Patriot Act violates every principle we fight and die for. And all of this has been during his first term. Can you imagine his policies when he doesn't have to worry about re-election? We can't allow that to happen, and there are so many like me in the military who feel this way. We were lied to and used. And there aren't words to describe the sense of betrayal I feel as a result.

From: Joseph Cherwinski
Sent: Saturday July 3 2004 8.33pm
Subject: "Fahrenheit 9/11"


I am a soldier in the United States army. I was in Iraq with the Fourth Infantry Division.

I was guarding some Iraqi workers one day. Their task was to fill sandbags for our base. The temperature was at least 120. I had to sit there with full gear on and monitor them. I was sitting and drinking water, and I could barely tolerate the heat, so I directed the workers to go to the shade and sit and drink water. I let them rest for about 20 minutes. Then a staff sergeant told me that they didn't need a break, and that they were to fill sandbags until the cows come home. He told the Iraqis to go back to work.

After 30 minutes, I let them have a break again, thus disobeying orders. If these were soldiers working, in this heat, those soldiers would be bound to a 10-minute work, 50-minute rest cycle, to prevent heat casualties. Again the staff sergeant came and sent the Iraqis back to work and told me I could sit in the shade. I told him no, I had to be out there with them so that when I started to need water, then they would definitely need water. He told me that wasn't necessary, and that they live here, and that they are used to it.

After he left, I put the Iraqis back into the shade. I could tell that some were very dehydrated; most of them were thin enough to be on an international food aid commercial. I would not treat my fellow soldiers in this manner, so I did not treat the Iraqi workers this way either.

This went on for eight months while I was in Iraq, and going through it told me that we were not there for their freedom, we were not there for WMD. We had no idea what we were fighting for anymore.

Will They Ever Trust Us Again? Letters from the Warzone to Michael Moore by Michael Moore, to be published by Allen Lane on October 7 at £12.99. Copyright © Michael Moore 2004. To order a copy for £12.34 with free UK p&p, call the Guardian Book Service on 0870 836 0875, or go to the Guardian
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Post by Winnow »

Cry me a river.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

More insightful comment by Winnow!

I'm glad this book has less opinion from Moore and instead gives the people that are sacrificing more than any of us for the war a chance to be heard. How you can simply say "cry me a river" to the people that are putting their fucking lives on the line for your bullshit war. How often do you get shot at and ambushed with bombs and rockets you little fuck? How often have you seen, first hand, the blood, gore, and tragedy that comes with war? If anyone knows what is going on in Iraq it is the people that are living there 24/7 and are in the middle of the war. Whether or not you agree with these people, you should be taking into consideration what they say, not just ignoring them and calling them pussies.

To Winnow and other war-supporters: Go join the fucking war if you all believe in it so much. It's blatantly obvious that we desperately NEED more troops, so there's your incentive. Get off your asses and go fight for freedom and democracy, if you think that's what this war is about. There are people in Iraq who left their families, jobs and education behind so they can die for you self-centered fucks who just sit there and cheer on a war without doing anything to help in this cause. If you believe so strongly in the war, what is your excuse for not joining up and helping out?
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Post by Kelshara »

Haven't you heard? Only pro-war and flowery emails from soldiers are allowed to be posted here!
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Post by Dregor Thule »

Kelshara wrote:Haven't you heard? Only pro-war and flowery emails from soldiers are allowed to be posted here!
Cry me a river.
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Post by Winnow »

It's nice to see Moore taking more money from liberals though. Be sure to run out and buy the book along with the special edition of F/911 with extra footage of Moore walking around.

Bling bling!
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Post by Kelshara »

Hey Winnow we got the money to spend. Maybe you'll figure that out one day when you get your head out of Bush' ass :)
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Post by Chidoro »

Winnow wrote:It's nice to see Moore taking more money from liberals though. Be sure to run out and buy the book along with the special edition of F/911 with extra footage of Moore walking around.

Bling bling!
I have an excellent idea, how about I win a no bid contract (a contract that's only a fraction of the actual money, because if you know anything about contractual arrangements, you only have to source under the initial level, the entire amount can rise by more than 10 times) for all of the paper, than say it was because the brutal and terroristic lumberjacks were going to steal paper from our very hands! Those bastards!

Those Warmongers! err I mean paper mongers. Be sure to watch our struggling middle class walk to the unemployment office, at least until their benefits run out, than they won't effect us at all!
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Post by Lalanae »

ignore works wonders...until someone uses the quote feature!
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Post by Winnow »

Roll up into a ball and close your eyes! Everything's ok!
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Post by Rekaar. »

I am absolutely in shock to hear that some people disagree with the war. Truly, this is news!
some misguided fellow wrote:the position we were put in - fighting an enemy that used women, children, and other civilians as shields; forcing us to choose between firing at "area targets" (nice way of saying firing into crowds) or being killed by the bastards using the crowds for cover - is indescribably horrible.
Somehow blaming that on the President is pretty impressive. Wouldn't it be the terrorist's fault for using these human shields rather than the guy who called for their execution?

That's like saying it's our fault 9/11 happened.
Time makes more converts than reason. - Thomas Paine
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Post by Kelshara »

eh partly it is. 9/11 didn't happen out of the blue, it has a long history behind it with lots of bad things done from both sides.

Oh and Winnow.. stop giving people advice on how to behave from your own experience. Some of us don't feel the need to close our eyes to the world like you do.
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Post by Rekaar. »

There's no partly about it. 9/11 happened because some terrorists thought it'd further their ideology to kill a bunch of people. You can't lay the blame for it on ANYONE but the perpetrators.

If a hot girl in a tight dress got gang raped after a party some friday night you'd say she was asking for it, wouldn't you. Same logic.
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Post by Chidoro »

Winnow wrote:close your eyes!
obviously, leading by example

mazel tov!
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Post by Kelshara »

Rekaar. wrote:There's no partly about it. 9/11 happened because some terrorists thought it'd further their ideology to kill a bunch of people. You can't lay the blame for it on ANYONE but the perpetrators.

If a hot girl in a tight dress got gang raped after a party some friday night you'd say she was asking for it, wouldn't you. Same logic.
Yeah that is even in the same league! Oh wait, I forget.. in your eyes the Good Ol' US of A can't do anything wrong can they?
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Post by Zaelath »

Rekaar. wrote:There's no partly about it. 9/11 happened because some terrorists thought it'd further their ideology to kill a bunch of people. You can't lay the blame for it on ANYONE but the perpetrators.

If a hot girl in a tight dress got gang raped after a party some friday night you'd say she was asking for it, wouldn't you. Same logic.
Unfortunately the US isn't a Friday night slut; innocent but misunderstood because of it's presentation.

The analogy would be more appropriate if you raped my sister because I raped yours.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
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Post by Xzion- »

Rekaar. wrote:There's no partly about it. 9/11 happened because some terrorists thought it'd further their ideology to kill a bunch of people. You can't lay the blame for it on ANYONE but the perpetrators.

If a hot girl in a tight dress got gang raped after a party some friday night you'd say she was asking for it, wouldn't you. Same logic.
Your logic is fucking incredible.
Bush or no other american authorized and still supports the 9/11 attack
That girl getting raped didnt authorized or support herself being raped

Bush authorized and supports a war that has exchanged 1 asshole dictator for over 1000 lives of american soldiers

WE were attacked on 9/11
THE GIRL WAS ATTACKED in the rape

WE did the attacking in iraq
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Post by Rekaar. »

Yes Captain Kangaroo, those are indeed different situations. Thanks for agreeing with me and not knowing it while throwing in a slam on Iraq.

Rereading your post without sarcasm, you are correct. Thank you for the compliment, my logic IS fucking incredible~
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Post by vn_Tanc »

There's no partly about it. 9/11 happened because some terrorists thought it'd further their ideology to kill a bunch of people
You are of course correct.
Now explain to me why the chose Americans without using the preposterous "cos they're jealous of our freedom and coca cola" line.
some misguided fellow wrote:
the position we were put in - fighting an enemy that used women, children, and other civilians as shields; forcing us to choose between firing at "area targets" (nice way of saying firing into crowds) or being killed by the bastards using the crowds for cover - is indescribably horrible.

Somehow blaming that on the President is pretty impressive. Wouldn't it be the terrorist's fault for using these human shields rather than the guy who called for their execution?
The President is responsible for putting him in the situation where he has to make this horrific choice and this soldier rightly questions the motivation for the war. If you can't grasp that important notion don't ever post on this forum again because you really are too fucking stupid.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

They didn't just choose Americans. They attacked a building that was filled with multinational companies.

Now you tell me why they attacked civilians instead of government buildings. If you attacked me, should I go and beat up your mother or another relative for it?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

They didn't just choose Americans. They attacked a building that was filled with multinational companies
Staffed overwhelmingly by Americans. In America.
Now you tell me why they attacked civilians instead of government buildings. If you attacked me, should I go and beat up your mother or another relative for it?
Because they're evil fuckers, that's why. But that really has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand here.
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Post by Voronwë »

Winnow wrote:Roll up into a ball and close your eyes! Everything's ok!
it does seem to be working for you




the private contractors making more than the soldiers for doing the same job is probably the thing that bothers me the most about the Pentagon's post war policy.
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Post by Sylvus »

Zaelath wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:There's no partly about it. 9/11 happened because some terrorists thought it'd further their ideology to kill a bunch of people. You can't lay the blame for it on ANYONE but the perpetrators.

If a hot girl in a tight dress got gang raped after a party some friday night you'd say she was asking for it, wouldn't you. Same logic.
Unfortunately the US isn't a Friday night slut; innocent but misunderstood because of it's presentation.

The analogy would be more appropriate if you raped my sister because I raped yours.
Actually, I think the analogy would be more appropriate if I raped your sister because your neighbor (who had come over to your house for tea once or twice) raped my sister.
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Post by Moonwynd »

Quoting Michael Moore as a credible source for anything is pretty sad. How do you know that these letters are real? He has already been caught telling blatant lies in regards to his movie...for example... He took a reader's letter that was printed in the Your Views section of the Bloomington Pantagraph newspaper and created his own version of the newspaper by using the title of the reader's letter "Latest Florida Recount Shows Gore Won Election" and blowing it up and making it look like a major headline written by a reporter.

Let's just say that these letters are real for argument sake. Out of the thousands and thousands of military personnel in Iraq don't you think there will be some people that are not supportive of how things are being run? Hell, I have friends in the military that are not supportive of how the military runs things on a daily basis over here. There are ALWAYS going to be dissenters...and human beings being the way they are...there will always be some moron in charge of other people...and that moron will either not know his ass from a hole in the ground...or will just be a complete and utter fucktard that joined the military so he could feel powerful. You know, I was in the Navy...and my biggest gripe was taking order from assholes...and more specifically..having those orders be such that it required me to do something completely ass backwards when I knew I could do it smarter and more efficiently a different way.

The staff sergeant that is spoken of in the alleged letter from a soldier in the Army is what I would describe as an idiot. These type of people are in the military, corporate America and all over the world for that matter. They just do not get it....they either have no clue or they just do not care. Michael Moore is going to use the worst examples he can find and publish them in attempt to make it appear as though it is the norm. If anyone truly believes otherwise then they are deluding themselves.

One more thing...this quote from Tony Pietsch's "letter" to Michael Moore:
I don't know how the rest of my life will turn out, but I truly regret being a 16-year-old kid looking for some extra pocket money and a way to college.
When you join the military...no matter what branch...there is always a chance that you will have to go to war or be in harm's way. It is the Armed Forces...the military. I feel for this kid....but whether you feel it was a just or unjust war...he knew the risks when he joined the military. Michael Moore is trying to play on our sympathy and emotions by telling us that being a "16 year-old kid" just "looking for some extra pocket money and a way to college" and joining the National Guard...that now being in combat is something that should never ever happen...as if he is implying this is just some poor kid that was looking for a way to get some money for college and should never ever be called to duty. I was in the military. I knew there was always a chance I could be in combat...I did not want to be in combat...but it was a chance I took...for the same reasons Tony Pietsch did...to have money for college and make a better life for myself.

Enough of my rambling. I just cannot believe that Michael Moore gets any sort of recognition. Like I said before...he is preaching to the converted...and his shit doesn't fly people that can actually think for themselves.
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Post by Siji »

I simply don't have the words to describe how pathetic some people that frequent this message board are. The human race really does need to be reset from scratch.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Private William Santiago.

Nuff said.
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Post by Moonwynd »

I simply don't have the words to describe how pathetic some people that frequent this message board are. The human race really does need to be reset from scratch.
Why don't you lead the way and be a pioneer for the betterment of the human race...reset yourself and show us how it is done.
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Post by Winnow »

Siji wrote:I simply don't have the words to describe how pathetic some people that frequent this message board are. The human race really does need to be reset from scratch.
Hello drama queen.
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Post by Truant »

Winnow wrote:
Siji wrote:I simply don't have the words to describe how pathetic some people that frequent this message board are. The human race really does need to be reset from scratch.
Hello drama queen.

Again, the fucking irony kills me.

You should really pay attention to what you say.
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Post by Winnow »

Truant wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Siji wrote:I simply don't have the words to describe how pathetic some people that frequent this message board are. The human race really does need to be reset from scratch.
Hello drama queen.

Again, the fucking irony kills me.

You should really pay attention to what you say.
I retired from my lofty position of drama queen on this board long ago. Guild wars are full of fun drama while politics requires optimism to counter the constant drone of liberal whining.
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Post by Rasspotari »

vn_Tanc wrote:
They didn't just choose Americans. They attacked a building that was filled with multinational companies
Staffed overwhelmingly by Americans. In America.
Now you tell me why they attacked civilians instead of government buildings. If you attacked me, should I go and beat up your mother or another relative for it?
Because they're evil fuckers, that's why. But that really has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand here.
evil fuckers, i dont agree, very fucked up view of the world, definatly.
make religion decide their course of action, very much so. ( then again i know of another guy that does that and seems proud of it)
they weren't attacking the american military of goverment, they were attacking the american way of life, wealth power greed, and in fact i'd say the two towers housing a number of big number of offices that fall in that category is a superb target.

mind you I wouldn't attack those, cuz i dont share their fucked up view of the world. and i dont consider the "american way of life" a deadly sin or some sort. they do, and i can put myself in their shoes and understand their motives. cuz i'm not a closed minded person.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

Stop it with the bullshit that you are optimistic for supporting the war and that us liberals are whiners, full of negatvity.

Negativity towards war and hatred of people different than us is optimism for peace and embracing people of different cultures. Negativity towards segregation and slavery was optimism towards equal rights and freedom. Negativity towards a warmongering, secretive, and dangerously prejudicial administration is optimism towards democracy, equality, and peace.

You say we are negative? I say we are far more positive and far more hopeful than you. You who stick with what your government is doing even thought you know they were wrong on many accounts.

Trusting that the UN and US inspectors had gotten rid of the WMDs was optimism. Trusting that the sanctions on Iraq had lessened Saddams power enough so that he was not a threat to us was optimism. Waging war on someone because of their past rather than present actions was absolutely pessimistic. War is the epitome of negativity. Peace is the epitome of optimism.

When you say you are optimistic towards a war that was unjustified and is obviously breeding more hate and more danger towards America, you are not optimistic, you are just a fucking idiot.
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Post by Mawafu »

vn_Tanc wrote:
They didn't just choose Americans. They attacked a building that was filled with multinational companies
Staffed overwhelmingly by Americans. In America.
Now you tell me why they attacked civilians instead of government buildings. If you attacked me, should I go and beat up your mother or another relative for it?
Because they're evil fuckers, that's why. But that really has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand here.
Maybe some insight into why they attacked the US/civilians. It is a letter by Osama bin Laden to America written back in Nov. 2002
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldvie ... 25,00.html
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,

"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?
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Post by Kelshara »

Quoting Michael Moore as a credible source for anything is pretty sad. How do you know that these letters are real?
So tell me this: How come you neocons can quote pro-war letters and take them for pure gold but the second something negative is said it is automatically fake and should be ignored?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kelshara wrote:
Quoting Michael Moore as a credible source for anything is pretty sad. How do you know that these letters are real?
So tell me this: How come you neocons can quote pro-war letters and take them for pure gold but the second something negative is said it is automatically fake and should be ignored?

Every pro-war letter quoted, I have seen, has had "assuming this is all true" as a preface. I don't see the same from you and your ilk. Nice try though scumbag.
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Post by Kelshara »

Then you are blind. You are also an idiot considering I did not post it. Nor am I pro-Kerry. So what else do you have up your ass to pull out this time, except for your head as usual?
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Post by Mplor »

After re-reading that bin Laden letter, I am reminded why so many people follow him and have adopted his ideals. The religio-cultural demagoguery is peppered with plenty of legitimate grievances --- and the religious stuff is actually his most persuasive argument among his intended audience, which speaks to how profoundly powerful his message is in the Middle East.

Not like it's news to say it, but our bombs and tanks are only treating the symptoms here, and probably actually worsening the fundamental problem like someone with fever chills who jumps in hot bath and blows his fever through the roof.

I wonder when enough years will have elapsed since 9/11 for Joe Citizen to admit that the Islamist terrorists have some legitimate grievances among those behind their abhorrent actions.
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Post by kyoukan »

Mplor wrote:I wonder when enough years will have elapsed since 9/11 for Joe Citizen to admit that the Islamist terrorists have some legitimate grievances among those behind their abhorrent actions.
Ask Castro how long it will take.
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Post by Rivera Bladestrike »

Sure they have a right to be pissed off, but asking an entire nation to be governed by laws created in the middle east? What kind of garbage is that? I despise all religion since it creates an ego that they are god's chosen and correct in all ways, and thats exactly what both our government and bin laden's message is saying. I just wish the confused mind of man never created religion, there would be no unrest in Israel, cause the ridiculous fighting over a bunch of slabs of stone where things are said to have happend over two thousand years ago. Its appalling how many people have died over differences of what book we choose to govern our lives with...

I'm happy to be an atheist when I see things like this, not that Islam is at fault, but all religion is at fault. People need to learn to live in their own right, be good because its right, not because God told you to. If they stopped living in the past and placing their lives in the hands of long dead humans and relics.

I could go on and on about how much of a hypocricy religion is...
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Post by Xzion- »

Rivera Bladestrike wrote:Sure they have a right to be pissed off, but asking an entire nation to be governed by laws created in the middle east? What kind of garbage is that? I despise all religion since it creates an ego that they are god's chosen and correct in all ways, and thats exactly what both our government and bin laden's message is saying. I just wish the confused mind of man never created religion, there would be no unrest in Israel, cause the ridiculous fighting over a bunch of slabs of stone where things are said to have happend over two thousand years ago. Its appalling how many people have died over differences of what book we choose to govern our lives with...

I'm happy to be an atheist when I see things like this, not that Islam is at fault, but all religion is at fault. People need to learn to live in their own right, be good because its right, not because God told you to. If they stopped living in the past and placing their lives in the hands of long dead humans and relics.

I could go on and on about how much of a hypocricy religion is...
I agree with much of what you said, but keep in mind atheism has the same exact principles as any other religion, even in your past statement you despise established religion and all the hate evil it brings (as do i)
Granted atheist dont go around starting wars with christians or muslims, they still hold the same descrimination and hold there own personal belifs as "the only truth"
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Post by Sirton »

Yes we know were the military stands. I understand why you all hate the military so much. It being made up by, mostly republicans.
Let me get you a hanky and wipe your tears about your hate for America, and how 9/11 has America to blame. We need to put America in a devil suite with a pitchfork! Ohh wait ya guys want to behead the pope and dont believe in religion of coarse, but yea you are full of optimism!!!!!! Give me some koolaid!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/ ... index.html
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Post by Kelshara »

Sirton you are a perfect example of why the US will never have a chance of settling down the Middle East. You immediately jump into super-defensive mode the second anything bad is said about America (like, let's say, there was a history behind 9/11! A lot of people in the Middle East have a good reason to hate the US!). As long as people like you are in power you will only drive the world towards mroe war, more trouble and more terror.
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Post by Rivera Bladestrike »

Sirton wrote:Yes we know were the military stands. I understand why you all hate the military so much. It being made up by, mostly republicans.
Let me get you a hanky and wipe your tears about your hate for America, and how 9/11 has America to blame. We need to put America in a devil suite with a pitchfork! Ohh wait ya guys want to behead the pope and dont believe in religion of coarse, but yea you are full of optimism!!!!!! Give me some koolaid!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/ ... index.html
I think its clear that in some of the letters up top show that the people are coming from heavy republican states and most of the families are Bush without a doubt, those actually serving in the military may or may not have completely different ideals. I think one mentioned he was begging his family to vote kerry, but his family was pro bush all the way. The sample was pretty small too, only 655 people. If you ask 655 texans, its all going to be good for bush, ask 655 people from massachuesetts and kerry would be it. And we all know that the military is always majorly republican, so the answer is obvious.
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Xzion
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Post by Xzion »

Sirton wrote:Yes we know were the military stands. I understand why you all hate the military so much. It being made up by, mostly republicans.
Let me get you a hanky and wipe your tears about your hate for America, and how 9/11 has America to blame. We need to put America in a devil suite with a pitchfork! Ohh wait ya guys want to behead the pope and dont believe in religion of coarse, but yea you are full of optimism!!!!!! Give me some koolaid!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/ ... index.html
I would bet thought that this year there is a much higher % of the military voting democratic then republican then there usually is
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Xzion wrote:
Sirton wrote:Yes we know were the military stands. I understand why you all hate the military so much. It being made up by, mostly republicans.
Let me get you a hanky and wipe your tears about your hate for America, and how 9/11 has America to blame. We need to put America in a devil suite with a pitchfork! Ohh wait ya guys want to behead the pope and dont believe in religion of coarse, but yea you are full of optimism!!!!!! Give me some koolaid!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/ ... index.html
I would bet thought that this year there is a much higher % of the military voting democratic then republican then there usually is
Propaganda will do that for you.
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Post by Neost »

Soldiers vote republican because it typically means better funding for weapons systems and equipment. Particularly the officer corps.

A lot of that filters down from command to the enlisted ranks. It's not anything overt like someone trying to order soldiers to vote republican or anything but election time rolls around and it is discussed in the military community just like anywhere else.
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