Can we agree on this?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » October 8, 2004, 2:16 pm

In 2000, it was "anything but a continuation of the clinton legacy" from the Republicans.
In 2004, it's "anything but Bush" from the Democrats.

The two sides, like last election, are so dynamically opposed to each other that there is going to be no ammount of aruging from supporters of either side that will convince anyone from the other side to switch ships.

The people that want Bush gone are never going to be able to convince the people that support Bush - or are even undecided - by saying 'anything is better than what we have'. The "anyone but gore" crowd wasn't able to convince people of that in the last election, the "anyone but bush" crowd won't be able to convince people using that tactic this election.

Both sides are dynamic opposites. There's going to have to come to a point where both sides have to agree to disagree and get on with life before this election erupts into a bigger mess than it already is.

Can we at least, for the sake of all that is holy or for the sake of all that is non existant (if you're agnostic) take a step back for a couple minutes, hours, days, get a few deep breaths, and find a different tactic to attack each other with?

miir · Post by **miir** » October 8, 2004, 2:29 pm

No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.

During the Clinton administration, the only ones who really wanted him out were the fiercely partisan republicans.

In the past 20 years, I've followed US politics fairly closely. I was never a partisan supporter of either party. Canada has always had amicable relations with the US. Since Bush, much of Canada (like myself) has become 'anti american' and anti-republican.

Dubya wanted to be a 'uniter', and for a brief moment, after 9/11 he was. He united the US (and the world) against a common, tangible threat.

Since then, his record speaks for itself.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » October 8, 2004, 2:30 pm

No. We agreed that it was sad that Rodney died. That's our yearly quota. Besides, smart republicans also say "Anyone but Bush".

masteen · Post by **masteen** » October 8, 2004, 2:32 pm

Smart Republicans voted for McCain in 2000.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » October 8, 2004, 2:40 pm

miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.

Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 8, 2004, 2:41 pm

I don't think the 2000 was so much anything but Clinton. You had the hardcore republicans who of course were anti anything democrat, and you had a whole lot of people (even a lot of democrats) who didn't really want anything to do with Gore. The scandal was really played out, and I think it was used politically to try and be an "all that is wrong with democrats" which served the republicans a little further.

However, I would have to echo what Miir said. Not once in my short life has one president so divided our nation. People are either staunchly in support of Bush, or staunchly against him. Those people may not know who they will vote for (aside from not bush) but they are very much against him.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 8, 2004, 2:42 pm

Typical republican... unwilling to take any responsibility or be accountable for your actions. It's always someone elses fault.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » October 8, 2004, 2:43 pm

Yes, the coutnry is divided.
Yes, it's the fault of the republican AND democrat parties.

But the whole 'anyone but Bush' speil isn't going to convince a damn soul that we should elect Kerry.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » October 8, 2004, 2:44 pm

we can agree that wonko authorized that i hate you now.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 8, 2004, 2:44 pm

masteen wrote:Smart Republicans voted for McCain in 2000.

Even a lot of democrats voted McCain in the primaries, finding lack of a candidate worth a vote on the Democratic ticket.

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.
Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.

Do you mind explaining how the Democratic party and the media have divided the country? It seems quite possibly the most ludicrous statement of the week, but I'm definately remaining open enough to listen to and consider this.

noel · Post by **noel** » October 8, 2004, 2:45 pm

I agree. Never before has there been a presidential election where people have truly said, if candidate A is elected, "the world will be a more dangerous place", "there could be a draft", "anti-American sentiment will continue to rise", "I'm leaving the US", etc.

I don't think I've ever seen people so staunchly divided. Normally it's just people who make it their business to care about politics. With this election I believe you have more average people expressing a staunch opinion one way or another on the candidates.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 8, 2004, 2:45 pm

Yes, it's the fault of the republican AND democrat parties.

What have the democrats done that has divided the US?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 8, 2004, 2:46 pm

miir wrote:

Dubya wanted to be a 'uniter', and for a brief moment, after 9/11 he was. He united the US (and the world) against a common, tangible threat.

Since then, his record speaks for itself.

People flip out over military action. The bigger picture is lost on most and all they see is what they want to see. Typically, it's "War is bad. I have no clue how to solve this issue except promise peace and properity but that sounds good to voters and one more thing...oh yeah...war is bad!" I would have done this..I would have done that...If I was president, 911 wouldnt have happened and we'd all be millionaires with robot servants and there would be no more crime and and and..." Democrats love to fall for campaign promises and love to whine about anything...and I mean anything...it's like a goal to find something to whine about. I just won a million bucks!...ah fuck...the taxes screwed me...now I've got to figure out what to do with this money...this sucks!

Go out and have some fun and quit bitching so much.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 8, 2004, 2:48 pm

In the future, can you filter out the 95% shit in your posts and just post your point?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 8, 2004, 2:49 pm

noel wrote:I agree. Never before has there been a presidential election where people have truly said, if candidate A is elected, "the world will be a more dangerous place", "there could be a draft", "anti-American sentiment will continue to rise", "I'm leaving the US", etc.

The draft thing is the most bogus claim ever. Democrats brought that up. Bush and his cabinet do not want a draft. It's something liberals dreamed up themselves. Nice peace of spin doctoring though.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 8, 2004, 2:55 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Yes, the coutnry is divided.
Yes, it's the fault of the republican AND democrat parties.

But the whole 'anyone but Bush' speil isn't going to convince a damn soul that we should elect Kerry.

And it isn't supposed to convince people to elect Kerry. If it were, then it would be part of the campaign ads. In fact, the democratic party has nothing to do with the "anyone but bush" idea at all. People actually feel that strongly about what has happened to this country in the last 4 years that they are taking it up on themselves to spread it.

People who are part of this whole anyone but Bush thing don't give a shit who you vote for, as long as you vote, and it isn't for Bush.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » October 8, 2004, 3:01 pm

Truant wrote:
masteen wrote:Smart Republicans voted for McCain in 2000.
Even a lot of democrats voted McCain in the primaries, finding lack of a candidate worth a vote on the Democratic ticket.

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.
Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.
Do you mind explaining how the Democratic party and the media have divided the country? It seems quite possibly the most ludicrous statement of the week, but I'm definately remaining open enough to listen to and consider this.

I've pointed this out numerous times. By focusing purely on the negative, you breed negativity. The Dems and Reps both know this. They know the media loves negativity. The dems also know they are for a more progressive, liberal society. They use the media to breed their negativity and divide the country.

Dividing us by race, by our monetary standings, by our age. By making proclamtions that the President has deliberately lied. By telling the public that one party is for them and the other party couldn't care less if they died. I'm shocking and stunned how people walk around completely clueless to this fact. It's frightening the power the media has over so many people. The fact they can so easily shape your reality, scares me more than death.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » October 8, 2004, 3:03 pm

You are just like a fucking kid, its everyone elses fault but your own. And your negativity thing is just plain fucking stupid. In fact, I think I change your mind, you are being so fucking negative right now, its forcing me to be negative and also making me tell you to fuck off.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 8, 2004, 3:06 pm

You know Mid, blaming the 'Liberal Media' starts to lose it's credibility after the 30th time.

You sound like some nutjob paranoid conspiracy theorist.

Time to think up a new angle.
The Jews, Muslims and the Liberal Media have all been done to death, so try to think up something original.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » October 8, 2004, 3:06 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Truant wrote:
masteen wrote:Smart Republicans voted for McCain in 2000.
Even a lot of democrats voted McCain in the primaries, finding lack of a candidate worth a vote on the Democratic ticket.

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.
Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.
Do you mind explaining how the Democratic party and the media have divided the country? It seems quite possibly the most ludicrous statement of the week, but I'm definately remaining open enough to listen to and consider this.
I've pointed this out numerous times. By focusing purely on the negative, you breed negativity. The Dems and Reps both know this. They know the media loves negativity. The dems also know they are for a more progressive, liberal society. They use the media to breed their negativity and divide the country.

Dividing us by race, by our monetary standings, by our age. By making proclamtions that the President has deliberately lied. By telling the public that one party is for them and the other party couldn't care less if they died. I'm shocking and stunned how people walk around completely clueless to this fact. It's frightening the power the media has over so many people. The fact they can so easily shape your reality, scares me more than death.

HOLY FUCK, Mid I have to say, that is the best response I have heard you give in awhile, agree with it or not, you thought that out well and expressed it beautifully, dude, that rocked!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » October 8, 2004, 3:06 pm

Lynks wrote:You are just like a fucking kid, its everyone elses fault but your own. And your negativity thing is just plain fucking stupid. In fact, I think I change your mind, you are being so fucking negative right now, its forcing me to be negative and also making me tell you to fuck off.

Gosh. WOW. Well, after hearing that sound reasoning I'm beginning to rethink my whole outlook of the world.

Go search some scientific studies or just open your eyes and observe the world around you and you will be able to see how negativity breeds negativity. If you can't, well them I'm sorry. Goes to show, in every grouping of people, some are pretty, some are ugly, some are smart, some are Lynks.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » October 8, 2004, 3:13 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I've pointed this out numerous times. By focusing purely on the negative, you breed negativity. The Dems and Reps both know this. They know the media loves negativity. The dems also know they are for a more progressive, liberal society. They use the media to breed their negativity and divide the country.

Dividing us by race, by our monetary standings, by our age. By making proclamtions that the President has deliberately lied. By telling the public that one party is for them and the other party couldn't care less if they died. I'm shocking and stunned how people walk around completely clueless to this fact. It's frightening the power the media has over so many people. The fact they can so easily shape your reality, scares me more than death.

I am assuming that your alternative would be that everyone just agree with Bush and let him do whatever he wants while in office.

It was the actions of President Bush that so many people disagree with that has lead to this division. Yes, both parties, the media, and the people of the United States all must accept responsibility for this division, but the fact that we don't all agree is nothing new nor is it "wrong".

You seem to think that it is our duty as Americans to quietly agree with the president and not point out when he is doing something that we disapprove of. You seem to be suggesting that the press should not act to bring political scandals, inconsistencies, and blunders to light.

In spite of what you believe, this nation was founded on the principle of freedom of speach and the right to disagree with your government's policies. It is our right and our duty to speak our voice, lest someone else assume the right to speak it for us.

noel · Post by **noel** » October 8, 2004, 3:18 pm

I've said this before, but it warrants repeating.

It is infinitely more American to criticize the actions of the government than it is to sit idly unaware of the actions of the goverment.

This is a non-partisan statement.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 8, 2004, 3:55 pm

think about the manner in which the Republican Congress attempted to remove Bill Clinton from office.

Republican strategist Grover Norquist who has been a big part of the intellectual movement behind the last 10 years of the rise of Republican power has kind of summed up the view on that:

"Bipartisanism is like date rape"

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » October 8, 2004, 3:58 pm

Certainly there has been a lot of strong rhetoric on both sides of this election.

One thing do not necessarily think is the truth though is the candidates are opposites, at least regarding policy. Both are pretty solidly central moderates (both with a taste for big governement) and in most cases the policy differences between them are more in technical issues than any huge substantive differences. Both sides try to paint the other as far out in the fringes of their respective political camps, but I think those claims are overstated.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 8, 2004, 4:17 pm

If you remove the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts from the equation, then there is no more division that there was in the 2000 or even the 1996 elections.

Quite honestly, the numbers would probably be the same without the war and it would just be different lines drawn.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » October 8, 2004, 4:38 pm

Since Bush, much of Canada (like myself) has become 'anti american' and anti-republican.

Thats not an entirely accurate way to portray it either Miir. There was anti-Americanism expressed in southern Ontario and Quebec before Bush came to office (to be honest I think it is large part due to the competativeness of the manufacturing sector and the rivalry between the regions that results... Western Canada and the Maritimes don't have the same economic drivers). A prime example of the anti-Americanism in Canada is the debate over health care in Canada and the scare mongering over a possible implementation of an "Americanized" system. Its subtle but its been there for a while.

Bush's stance on Iraq DID have a very real and cooling effect on how other parts of the country viewed him. To be honest, when he was elected, I thought he was better than Al Gore (hey in Alberta we're all about energy too

), but his stance on Iraq and his willingness to lead an barely justified invasion gave me second thoughts. The justifications disappeared and were re-invented and thats where I, like other more conservative Canadians became very cynical and suspicious of what his goals and motivations are. In the end, morally, I think Chretien did the right thing in not joining Bush's coalition (the only time I think that french asshole did anything right for Canada), but politically I wonder if it was best for Canada to cultivate the enmity of our largest trading partner and next door neighbour. And the way Chretien allowed his cabinet to foster more anti-Americanism was downright stupidity, which Liberal asshole or not, Martin seems to be willing to eliminate.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » October 8, 2004, 5:31 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.
Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.

WHAT A GOOD COMEBACK WITH EXCEPTIONAL REASONING SKILLS AND SUFFICIENT PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT

Let me try!

Wrong! It was the NEOCONS doing!

Everything bad ends in CON!

Decepticon, Emoticons, and NEOCONS!!

It's true because I said it.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » October 8, 2004, 5:33 pm

Sylvos wrote:we can agree that wonko authorized that i hate you now.

Wonko for president!

He can head the Fnask party

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 8, 2004, 5:48 pm

Well, the Decepticons were cool jets!! VROOOMSS POW POW POW VRWEEEEEMMM.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » October 8, 2004, 6:04 pm

Stragi wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.
Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.
WHAT A GOOD COMEBACK WITH EXCEPTIONAL REASONING SKILLS AND SUFFICIENT PROOF TO BACK UP YOUR STATEMENT

Let me try!

Wrong! It was the NEOCONS doing!

Everything bad ends in CON!

Decepticon, Emoticons, and NEOCONS!!

It's true because I said it.

Ahh yes. The very witty and beloved board retard. Interesting how you chose to call me out, but not Miir for the very same blanketed claim it was Bush who has divided the country. Interesting. Not really. It's actually pathetically consistent and predictable. But, I'll play nice.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » October 8, 2004, 6:31 pm

Maybe it's because Miir's statement was true! Because he said it was!

I don't see you responding to his question with a real answer... just the same bs "because I think it is" response you consistantly use when you're not preaching kill the browns. You're the last person on earth who should be pointing out consistancy like you're doing in this thread.

It's nice to know I've been voted board retard by the board triumvirate of oblivious fucking idiots during one of your undoubtedly flamboyant threeway phonecalls.

If you wanna talk pathetic, get a mirror.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 8, 2004, 7:26 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
miir wrote:No we cannot agree.

The Bush administration has divided your country like no other president in recent memory.
Wrong. The Democrat party and the media has divided this country.

Your stupidity is only overshadowed by your ignorance. Your moronic hero not only divided the US, but he divided the world.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » October 8, 2004, 8:13 pm

We can't even agree to disgree.
Beautiful.

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » October 8, 2004, 8:22 pm

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » October 10, 2004, 5:52 pm

Rivera Bladestrike wrote:

Hahaha, ok that is good.