Interesting articles on Bush ties to Swift Boat Vets

What do you think about the world?
Crav
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 447
Joined: July 5, 2002, 8:15 pm

Interesting articles on Bush ties to Swift Boat Vets

Post by Crav »

It will be interesting to see how this story develops.

NY Times article: link
Friendly Fire: The Birth of an Anti-Kerry Ad
By KATE ZERNIKE and JIM RUTENBERG

fter weeks of taking fire over veterans' accusations that he had lied about his Vietnam service record to win medals and build a political career, Senator John Kerry shot back yesterday, calling those statements categorically false and branding the people behind them tools of the Bush campaign.

His decision to take on the group directly was a measure of how the group that calls itself Swift Boat Veterans for Truth has catapulted itself to the forefront of the presidential campaign. It has advanced its cause in a book, in a television advertisement and on cable news and talk radio shows, all in an attempt to discredit Mr. Kerry's war record, a pillar of his campaign.

How the group came into existence is a story of how veterans with longstanding anger about Mr. Kerry's antiwar statements in the early 1970's allied themselves with Texas Republicans.

Mr. Kerry called them "a front for the Bush campaign" - a charge the campaign denied.

A series of interviews and a review of documents show a web of connections to the Bush family, high-profile Texas political figures and President Bush's chief political aide, Karl Rove.

Records show that the group received the bulk of its initial financing from two men with ties to the president and his family - one a longtime political associate of Mr. Rove's, the other a trustee of the foundation for Mr. Bush's father's presidential library. A Texas publicist who once helped prepare Mr. Bush's father for his debate when he was running for vice president provided them with strategic advice. And the group's television commercial was produced by the same team that made the devastating ad mocking Michael S. Dukakis in an oversized tank helmet when he and Mr. Bush's father faced off in the 1988 presidential election.

The strategy the veterans devised would ultimately paint John Kerry the war hero as John Kerry the "baby killer" and the fabricator of the events that resulted in his war medals. But on close examination, the accounts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' prove to be riddled with inconsistencies. In many cases, material offered as proof by these veterans is undercut by official Navy records and the men's own statements.

Several of those now declaring Mr. Kerry "unfit" had lavished praise on him, some as recently as last year.

In an unpublished interview in March 2003 with Mr. Kerry's authorized biographer, Douglas Brinkley, provided by Mr. Brinkley to The New York Times, Roy F. Hoffmann, a retired rear admiral and a leader of the group, allowed that he had disagreed with Mr. Kerry's antiwar positions but said, "I am not going to say anything negative about him." He added, "He's a good man."

In a profile of the candidate that ran in The Boston Globe in June 2003, Mr. Hoffmann approvingly recalled the actions that led to Mr. Kerry's Silver Star: "It took guts, and I admire that."

George Elliott, one of the Vietnam veterans in the group, flew from his home in Delaware to Boston in 1996 to stand up for Mr. Kerry during a tough re-election fight, declaring at a news conference that the action that won Mr. Kerry a Silver Star was "an act of courage." At that same event, Adrian L. Lonsdale, another Vietnam veteran now speaking out against Mr. Kerry, supported him with a statement about the "bravado and courage of the young officers that ran the Swift boats."

"Senator Kerry was no exception," Mr. Lonsdale told the reporters and cameras assembled at the Charlestown Navy Yard. "He was among the finest of those Swift boat drivers."

Those comments echoed the official record. In an evaluation of Mr. Kerry in 1969, Mr. Elliott, who was one of his commanders, ranked him as "not exceeded" in 11 categories, including moral courage, judgment and decisiveness, and "one of the top few" - the second-highest distinction - in the remaining five. In written comments, he called Mr. Kerry "unsurpassed," "beyond reproach" and "the acknowledged leader in his peer group."

The Admiral Calls

It all began last winter, as Mr. Kerry was wrapping up the Democratic nomination. Mr. Lonsdale received a call at his Massachusetts home from his old commander in Vietnam, Mr. Hoffmann, asking if he had seen the new biography of the man who would be president.

Mr. Hoffmann had commanded the Swift boats during the war from a base in Cam Ranh Bay and advocated a search-and-destroy campaign against the Vietcong - the kind of tactic Mr. Kerry criticized when he was a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War in 1971. Shortly after leaving the Navy in 1978, he was issued a letter of censure for exercising undue influence on cases in the military justice system.

Both Mr. Hoffmann and Mr. Lonsdale had publicly lauded Mr. Kerry in the past. But the book, Mr. Brinkley's "Tour of Duty," while it burnished Mr. Kerry's reputation, portrayed the two men as reckless leaders whose military approach had led to the deaths of countless sailors and innocent civilians. Several Swift boat veterans compared Mr. Hoffmann to the bloodthirsty colonel in the film "Apocalypse Now" - the one who loves the smell of Napalm in the morning.

The two men were determined to set the record, as they saw it, straight.

"It was the admiral who started it and got the rest of us into it," Mr. Lonsdale said.

Mr. Hoffmann's phone calls led them to Texas and to John E. O'Neill, who at one point commanded the same Swift boat in Vietnam, and whose mission against him dated to 1971, when he had been recruited by the Nixon administration to debate Mr. Kerry on "The Dick Cavett Show."

Mr. O'Neill, who pressed his charges against Mr. Kerry in numerous television appearances Thursday, had spent the 33 years since he debated Mr. Kerry building a successful law practice in Houston, intermingling with some of the state's most powerful Republicans and building an impressive client list. Among the companies he represented was Falcon Seaboard, the energy firm founded by the current lieutenant governor of Texas, David Dewhurst, a central player in the Texas redistricting plan that has positioned state Republicans to win more Congressional seats this fall.

Mr. O'Neill said during one of several interviews that he had come to know two of his biggest donors, Harlan Crow and Bob J. Perry, through longtime social and business contacts.

Mr. Perry, who has given $200,000 to the group, is the top donor to Republicans in the state, according to Texans for Public Justice, a nonpartisan group that tracks political donations. He donated $46,000 to President Bush's campaigns for governor in 1994 and 1998. In the 2002 election, the group said, he donated nearly $4 million to Texas candidates and political committees.

Mr. Rove, Mr. Bush's top political aide, recently said through a spokeswoman that he and Mr. Perry were longtime friends, though he said they had not spoken for at least a year. Mr. Rove and Mr. Perry have been associates since at least 1986, when they both worked on the gubernatorial campaign of Bill Clements.

Mr. O'Neill said he had known Mr. Perry for 30 years. "I've represented many of his friends,'' Mr. O'Neill said. Mr. Perry did not respond to requests for comment.

Mr. O'Neill said he had also known Mr. Crow for 30 years, through mutual friends. Mr. Crow, the seventh-largest donor to Republicans in the state according to the Texans for Public Justice, has donated nowhere near as much money as Mr. Perry to the Swift boat group. His family owns one of the largest diversified commercial real estate companies in the nation, the Trammell Crow Company, and has given money to Mr. Bush and his father throughout their careers. He is listed as a trustee of the George Bush Presidential Library Foundation.

One of his law partners, Margaret Wilson, became Mr. Bush's general counsel when he was governor of Texas and followed him to the White House as deputy counsel for the Department of Commerce, according to her biography on the law firm's Web site.

Another partner, Tex Lezar, ran on the Republican ticket with Mr. Bush in 1994, as lieutenant governor. They were two years apart at Yale, and Mr. Lezar worked for the attorney general's office in the Reagan administration. Mr. Lezar, who died last year, was married to Merrie Spaeth, a powerful public relations executive who has helped coordinate the efforts of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

In 2000, Ms. Spaeth was spokeswoman for a group that ran $2 million worth of ads attacking Senator John McCain's environmental record and lauding Mr. Bush's in crucial states during their fierce primary battle. The group, calling itself Republicans for Clean Air, was founded by a prominent Texas supporter of Mr. Bush, Sam Wyly.

Ms. Spaeth had been a communications official in the Reagan White House, where the president's aides had enough confidence in her to invite her to help prepare George Bush for his vice-presidential debate in 1984. She says she is also a close friend of Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas, a client of Mr. Rove's. Ms. Spaeth said in an interview that the one time she had ever spoken to Mr. Rove was when Ms. Hutchison was running for the Texas treasurer's office in 1990.

When asked if she had ever visited the White House during Mr. Bush's tenure, Ms. Spaeth initially said that she had been there only once, in 2002, when Kenneth Starr gave her a personal tour. But this week Ms. Spaeth acknowledged that she had spent an hour in the Old Executive Office Building, part of the White House complex, in the spring of 2003, giving Mr. Bush's chief economic adviser, Stephen Friedman, public speaking advice. Asked if it was possible that she had worked with other administration officials, Ms. Spaeth said, "The answer is 'no,' unless you refresh my memory.''

"Is the White House directing this?" Ms. Spaeth said of the organization. "Absolutely not.''

Another participant is the political advertising agency that made the group's television commercial: Stevens Reed Curcio & Potholm, based in Alexandria, Va. The agency worked for Senator McCain in 2000 and for Mr. Bush's father in 1988, when it created the "tank" advertisement mocking Mr. Dukakis. A spokesman for the Swift boat veterans said the organization decided to hire the agency after a member saw one of its partners speaking on television.

About 10 veterans met in Ms. Spaeth's office in Dallas in April to share outrage and plot their campaign against Mr. Kerry, she and others said. Mr. Lonsdale, who did not attend, said the meeting had been planned as "an indoctrination session."

What might have been loose impressions about Mr. Kerry began to harden.

"That was an awakening experience," Ms. Spaeth said. "Not just for me, but for many of them who had not heard each other's stories."

The group decided to hire a private investigator to investigate Mr. Brinkley's account of the war - to find "some neutral way of actually questioning people involved in these incidents,'' Mr. O'Neill said.

But the investigator's questions did not seem neutral to some.

Patrick Runyon, who served on a mission with Mr. Kerry, said he initially thought the caller was from a pro-Kerry group, and happily gave a statement about the night Mr. Kerry won his first Purple Heart. The investigator said he would send it to him by e-mail for his signature. Mr. Runyon said the edited version was stripped of all references to enemy combat, making it look like just another night in the Mekong Delta.

"It made it sound like I didn't believe we got any returned fire," he said. "He made it sound like it was a normal operation. It was the scariest night of my life."

By May, the group had the money that Mr. O'Neill had collected as well as additional veterans rallied by Mr. O'Neill, Mr. Hoffmann and others. The expanded group gathered in Washington to record the veterans' stories for a television commercial.

Each veteran's statement was written down as an affidavit and sent to him to sign and have notarized. But the validity of those affidavits soon came into question.

Mr. Elliott, who recommended Mr. Kerry for the Silver Star, had signed one affidavit saying Mr. Kerry "was not forthright" in the statements that had led to the award. Two weeks ago, The Boston Globe quoted him as saying that he felt he should not have signed the affidavit. He then signed a second affidavit that reaffirmed his first, which the Swift Boat Veterans gave to reporters. Mr. Elliott has refused to speak publicly since then.

The Questions

The book outlining the veterans' charges, "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against Kerry," has also come under fire. It is published by Regnery, a conservative company that has published numerous books critical of Democrats, and written by Mr. O'Neill and Jerome R. Corsi, who was identified on the book jacket as a Harvard Ph.D. and the author of many books and articles. But Mr. Corsi also acknowledged that he has been a contributor of anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-Semitic comments to a right-wing Web site. He said he regretted those comments.

The group's arguments have foundered on other contradictions. In the television commercial, Dr. Louis Letson looks into the camera and declares, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury." Dr. Letson does not dispute the wound - a piece of shrapnel above Mr. Kerry's left elbow - but he and others in the group argue that it was minor and self-inflicted.

Yet Dr. Letson's name does not appear on any of the medical records for Mr. Kerry. Under "person administering treatment" for the injury, the form is signed by a medic, J. C. Carreon, who died several years ago. Dr. Letson said it was common for medics to treat sailors with the kind of injury that Mr. Kerry had and to fill out paperwork when doctors did the treatment.

Asked in an interview if there was any way to confirm he had treated Mr. Kerry, Dr. Letson said, "I guess you'll have to take my word for it."

The group also offers the account of William L. Schachte Jr., a retired rear admiral who says in the book that he had been on the small skimmer on which Mr. Kerry was injured that night in December 1968. He contends that Mr. Kerry wounded himself while firing a grenade.

But the two other men who acknowledged that they had been with Mr. Kerry, Bill Zaladonis and Mr. Runyon, say they cannot recall a third crew member. "Me and Bill aren't the smartest, but we can count to three," Mr. Runyon said in an interview. And even Dr. Letson said he had not recalled Mr. Schachte until he had a conversation with another veteran earlier this year and received a subsequent phone call from Mr. Schachte himself.

Mr. Schachte did not return a telephone call, and a spokesman for the group said he would not comment.

The Silver Star was awarded after Mr. Kerry's boat came under heavy fire from shore during a mission in February 1969. According to Navy records, he turned the boat to charge the Vietcong position. An enemy solider sprang from the shore about 10 feet in front of the boat. Mr. Kerry leaped onto the shore, chased the soldier behind a small hut and killed him, seizing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber.

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth describes the man Mr. Kerry killed as a solitary wounded teenager "in a loincloth," who may or may not have been armed. They say the charge to the beach was planned the night before and, citing a report from one crew member on a different boat, maintain that the sailors even schemed about who would win which medals.

The group says Mr. Kerry himself wrote the reports that led to the medal. But Mr. Elliott and Mr. Lonsdale, who handled reports going up the line for recognition, have previously said that a medal would be awarded only if there was corroboration from others and that they had thoroughly corroborated the accounts.

"Witness reports were reviewed; battle reports were reviewed," Mr. Lonsdale said at the 1996 news conference, adding, "It was a very complete and carefully orchestrated procedure." In his statements Mr. Elliott described the action that day as "intense" and "unusual."

According to a citation for Mr. Kerry's Bronze Star, a group of Swift boats was leaving the Bay Hap river when several mines detonated, disabling one boat and knocking a soldier named Jim Rassmann overboard. In a hail of enemy fire, Mr. Kerry turned the boat around to pull Mr. Rassmann from the water.

Mr. Rassmann, who says he is a Republican, reappeared during the Iowa caucuses this year to tell his story and support Mr. Kerry, and is widely credited with helping to revive Mr. Kerry's campaign.

But the group says that there was no enemy fire, and that while Mr. Kerry did rescue Mr. Rassmann, the action was what anyone would have expected of a sailor, and hardly heroic. Asked why Mr. Rassmann recalled that he was dodging enemy bullets, a member of the group, Jack Chenoweth, said, "He's lying."

"If that's what we have to say," Mr. Chenoweth added, "that's how it was."

Several veterans insist that Mr. Kerry wrote his own reports, pointing to the initials K. J. W. on one of the reports and saying they are Mr. Kerry's. "What's the W for, I cannot answer," said Larry Thurlow, who said his boat was 50 to 60 yards from Mr. Kerry's. Mr. Kerry's middle initial is F, and a Navy official said the initials refer to the person who had received the report at headquarters, not the author.

A damage report to Mr. Thurlow's boat shows that it received three bullet holes, suggesting enemy fire, and later intelligence reports indicate that one Vietcong was killed in action and five others wounded, reaffirming the presence of an enemy. Mr. Thurlow said the boat was hit the day before. He also received a Bronze Star for the day, a fact left out of "Unfit for Command."

Asked about the award, Mr. Thurlow said that he did not recall what the citation said but that he believed it had commended him for saving the lives of sailors on a boat hit by a mine. If it did mention enemy fire, he said, that was based on Mr. Kerry's false reports. The actual citation, Mr. Thurlow said, was with an ex-wife with whom he no longer has contact, and he declined to authorize the Navy to release a copy. But a copy obtained by The New York Times indicates "enemy small arms," "automatic weapons fire" and "enemy bullets flying about him." The citation was first reported by The Washington Post on Thursday.

Standing Their Ground

As serious questions about its claims have arisen, the group has remained steadfast and adaptable.

This week, as its leaders spoke with reporters, they have focused primarily on the one allegation in the book that Mr. Kerry's campaign has not been able to put to rest: that he was not in Cambodia at Christmas in 1968, as he declared in a statement to the Senate in 1986. Even Mr. Brinkley, who has emerged as a defender of Mr. Kerry, said in an interview that it was unlikely that Mr. Kerry's Swift boat ventured into Cambodia at Christmas, though he said he believed that Mr. Kerry was probably there shortly afterward.

The group said it would introduce a new advertisement against Mr. Kerry on Friday. What drives the veterans, they acknowledge, is less what Mr. Kerry did during his time in Vietnam than what he said after. Their affidavits and their television commercial focus mostly on those antiwar statements. Most members of the group object to his using the word "atrocities" to describe what happened in Vietnam when he returned and became an antiwar activist. And they are offended, they say, by the gall of his running for president as a hero of that war.

"I went to university and was called a baby killer and a murderer because of guys like Kerry and what he was saying," said Van Odell, who appears in the first advertisement, accusing Mr. Kerry of lying to get his Bronze Star. "Not once did I participate in the atrocities he said were happening."

As Mr. Lonsdale explained it: "We won the battle. Kerry went home and lost the war for us.

"He called us rapers and killers and that's not true," he continued. "If he expects our loyalty, we should expect loyalty from him."
Got to that story from this MSNBC article: link
Crav Veladorn
Darkblade of Tunare

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
- Albert Einstein
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Thurlow is the guy that says there was no enemy fire the day Kerry pulled Bill Rassmun out of the river to win his bronze star.

Navy records show that the damage report to Thurlow's boat indicated bullet holes.

Navy records show that Thurlow won a bronze star the same day for the same encounter (a fact omitted from the book and commercials...hmm wonder why), and that very Bronze Star citation also corroborates the fact that enemy fire was incoming.

a 3rd navy report regarding that same day from intelligence sources confirms killed Viet Cong soldier on the river bank following the encounter.

The reason the Republicans are pursuing this campaign (they just had another $600,000 ad buy) is because polls show that on every issue except terrorism Bush is tied or losing. The only issue he is tied on is Iraq. He is losing on the major domestic issues like economy, jobs, health care, etc.

electoral vote estimates at this time show Kerry at around 310 and Bush at around 210.

Basically, right now in my view the Republicans have got to rely on negative advertising, and that is what they are doing. THey are losing, and trending negative, if you think it is dirty now, it is only going to get worse.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Voronwë wrote:Thurlow is the guy that says there was no enemy fire the day Kerry pulled Bill Rassmun out of the river to win his bronze star.

Navy records show that the damage report to Thurlow's boat indicated bullet holes.

Navy records show that Thurlow won a bronze star the same day for the same encounter (a fact omitted from the book and commercials...hmm wonder why), and that very Bronze Star citation also corroborates the fact that enemy fire was incoming.

a 3rd navy report regarding that same day from intelligence sources confirms killed Viet Cong soldier on the river bank following the encounter.

The reason the Republicans are pursuing this campaign (they just had another $600,000 ad buy) is because polls show that on every issue except terrorism Bush is tied or losing. The only issue he is tied on is Iraq. He is losing on the major domestic issues like economy, jobs, health care, etc.

electoral vote estimates at this time show Kerry at around 310 and Bush at around 210.

Basically, right now in my view the Republicans have got to rely on negative advertising, and that is what they are doing. THey are losing, and trending negative, if you think it is dirty now, it is only going to get worse.
The problem with your claim is, The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, aren't affiliated with Bush. The leader guy, John something, was on Hannity today and said he doesn't care if Bush called him personally and asked him to stop running the ads. He said it isn't Bush's business to get involved in. They do not like John Kerry for the things he said when he came back. Plain and simple.

Tying Bush to Swift Boat Vets is the same as tying Kerry to Moveon.org.

So in your mind, then Kerry is also involved heavily in negative campaigning. He is desperate as well. He will lose this election and renew my faith in Americans.
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

lol
User avatar
Adelrune Argenti
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 831
Joined: July 9, 2002, 4:22 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Post by Adelrune Argenti »

Where is the confirmation on the bullet holes in the boat? I mean other than this one source. Is this corroborated anywhere either way? I have heard from other places that there were no bullet holes at all. I just want to get to the bottom of this.
Adelrune Argenti
User avatar
Rasspotari
Gets Around
Gets Around
Posts: 227
Joined: April 2, 2003, 7:36 am

Post by Rasspotari »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The problem with your claim is, The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, aren't affiliated with Bush. The leader guy, John something, was on Hannity today and said he doesn't care if Bush called him personally and asked him to stop running the ads. He said it isn't Bush's business to get involved in. They do not like John Kerry for the things he said when he came back. Plain and simple.

Tying Bush to Swift Boat Vets is the same as tying Kerry to Moveon.org.

So in your mind, then Kerry is also involved heavily in negative campaigning. He is desperate as well. He will lose this election and renew my faith in Americans.
the problem with your claim is that you believe anything anyone against kerry says. since bush has denied he has any ties (which of course he would) that john something guy isn't going to go against the will of one they're doing it for (assuming that's the case).
your other problem is that you go to any distance to find "flaws" in other peoples argument if it's against bush, it's come down to beeing plain pathetic sir, give it up because this is the main reason people ridicule you here on these boards. Aside from blindly following some political faith in the republicans which everyone here are pretty sure you'd cling to, short of them publically blaming you and your family for the entire world problems and have them executed, you are no doubt a nice enough fella :) . Take this advice to heart.. faith is good but blind faith is stupid as chicken poo.

dont be a chicken poo.
Rasspotari
Rogue
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

He will lose this election and renew my faith in Americans.
Glad one person will have faith in Americans then while the rest of the world wont be able to decide if they should laugh or feel pity.
Lynks
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2774
Joined: September 30, 2002, 6:58 pm
XBL Gamertag: launchpad1979
Location: Sudbury, Ontario

Post by Lynks »

I lose my faith in Americans everytime Midnyte posts something. But then I try not to generalize every american because of a few bad apples.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Lynks wrote:I lose my faith in Americans everytime Midnyte posts something. But then I try not to generalize every american because of a few bad apples.
America would be 100 times better if there were more who thought like me :)

I'll take my realistic view on life over many's negative view any day of the fucking week.
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:America would be 100 times better if there were more who thought like me :)
you're right it would be, cause it would still be ruled by the british.
User avatar
Krimson Klaw
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1976
Joined: July 22, 2002, 1:00 pm

Post by Krimson Klaw »

lol
User avatar
Markulas
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 496
Joined: June 27, 2003, 2:03 am

Post by Markulas »

In the paper today there was an article about some of the members of this cool new "truth squad". Some of the members as recently as last year publicly endorosed Kerry, but are now trying to discredit him.
I'm going to live forever or die trying
User avatar
Metanis
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1417
Joined: July 5, 2002, 4:54 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Post by Metanis »

What drives the veterans, they acknowledge, is less what Mr. Kerry did during his time in Vietnam than what he said after.
What I find so amazing is the "lefts" hypocrisy. Michael Moore creates his anti-Bush fantasy and the Democrats suck his dick at their national convention. A group of anti-Kerry veterans create their own version of "documentary" and the "left" is apoplectic and demands that Bush silence the group.

1.) How dare anyone advocate the President of the USA try to silence a groups excercise of their rights to protected and free political speech.

2.) How could Kerry NOT expect retaliation for his actions after he got home from Vietnam? John Kerry called these vets baby-killers and worse. And now John Kerry is crying because these vets finally have a chance to get their just desserts 35 years later? Cry me a river John Kerry.

3.) John Kerry chose this battle ground. His reactions to the controversy are very illuminating. We can see first hand in real time that John Kerry doesn't handle adverse situations well. Good one John, you should have just sit down and shut up. This would have blown over.

4.) Anyone pay any attention to the numbers? Anti-Bush 527 groups have spent over $60M dollars so far against Bush. Swivets has accomplished a comparable media frenzy for about $1.2M. Who says Repbulicans aren't frugal?

:)
User avatar
Sirton
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 474
Joined: July 31, 2002, 5:20 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Sirton »

Michael Moore creates his anti-Bush fantasy and the Democrats suck his dick at their national convention.
Metanis.

Amen.

I hate the negative crap on both sides, but what do you think is going to happen. Michael Moores divisive driven film. Sorros and Moveon.org...The most hateful primaries and name calling and bashing I have ever seen for the past year at democrat debates.

The reason was because Bush had around 65-85% approval rating most of his presidency longer than any other president in History in there first term I think, and 9/11 will give him a legacy that Bill Clinton will never have. In 50yrs in history books when one reads about Bill they will see Impeached president in the first line. On Bush it will be about the war on terrorism and how he liberated 50mil people and hopefully it will be about the start of democracy in the middle east.



The DNC decided there only chance was a 2 year marathon on propagandizing hatred for Bush and to divide this country as much as possible, because Bush's popular support in the mid-terms and them not fighting got them a major ass kicking. That mid-term was there time to pick-up seats too so it was a major blow to them.

Now this term the republicans should be picking up seats according to the numbers the seat redistricting and the seats up for grabs...The RNC will gain two more Senate seats and maybe upto 10 in the House. Plus the Presidency.

The main reason is because of the dip shit opinions like on this board run the power in the DNC and the Michael Moores are no were close to to the main stream in the US...why do you think John Kerry tried to sound like a Republican at his Convention, because without the main stream thats turned off by the Michael Moores hes lost? duh...Why do you think hes changed again on saying hed of voted in favor of the Iraqi war knowing everything he knows today. Because everything is about Money and Power and Politics...and he knows hes on the loosing end saying the other way. Polls are worthless exp. at this time I remember how Arnold was suppose to loose to Bustamoney by many points and he creamed him, so polls are really worthless anyways, but still fun to look at....its about whos motivated to vote on that particular election day..

So while ya guys say the world is shit and Bush this that and everything is crappy....Im gonna be confident and just smile. :)
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

I find it amusing that you think it takes a campaign against Bush to make him look like a rambling idiot. He manages that quite nicely on his own.
User avatar
Sirton
Star Farmer
Star Farmer
Posts: 474
Joined: July 31, 2002, 5:20 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Post by Sirton »

Did you not notice the longest primaries in US history? Did you watch the democrat debates? Did you see or hear about Michael Moores film? Did you hear about moveon.org? Did you see Michael Moore being the biggest thing at the DNC convention? Have you not notice by far the most money spent on a Campaign, both ways in history?

Thats not a campaign?? That is not propaganda? I find it really sad how so many people are so stupid and can be play'd so easy and hate so easy.

Man everything is about money, power and politics..it plays both ways...The Democrats and Republicans have been trying to slit each others throats basically since Richard Nixon having to step down and the Vietnam War(LBJ's war btw). Ronald Reagan was only able to survive, because he was good personal friend of Tip O'neils and other major democrats, so they didn't try and character assasinate him so much, and alittle because his positive message and charisma.

http://www.electionprojection.com/essay1.html
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

bush campaign started the kerry attack ads before the primaries were even half over.
User avatar
Winnow
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 27727
Joined: July 5, 2002, 1:56 pm
Location: A Special Place in Hell

Post by Winnow »

kyoukan wrote:bush campaign started the kerry attack ads before the primaries were even half over.
Right after Kerry started his attacks.
Lynks
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2774
Joined: September 30, 2002, 6:58 pm
XBL Gamertag: launchpad1979
Location: Sudbury, Ontario

Post by Lynks »

Winnow wrote:
kyoukan wrote:bush campaign started the kerry attack ads before the primaries were even half over.
Right after Kerry started his attacks.
Im 80% sure I saw anti-Kerry adds well before the anti-Bush ones.
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

heh yeah Bush started the shitthrowing this time.. at least I KNOW I saw his ads first.
User avatar
Dregor Thule
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5994
Joined: July 3, 2002, 8:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Xathlak
PSN ID: dregor77
Location: Oakville, Ontario

Post by Dregor Thule »

kyoukan wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:America would be 100 times better if there were more who thought like me :)
you're right it would be, cause it would still be ruled by the british.
Oh god.. hahaha. That's one of your best in a good while.
Image
User avatar
Animale
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 598
Joined: July 3, 2002, 2:45 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Raleigh

Post by Animale »

I really don't understand the Bush folks pushing Kerry's war record. It's an issue that Bush cannot win, hell, he can't even compete with him in this area. Which is probably why Kerry is drooling over this opportunity, he didn't even have to bring it up again, and now everybody is talking about Kerry's "war record."

Bush's Air national guard service pales in comparison... even under the best of circumstances (i.e. showed up to whole thing blah blah blah).

Animale
Animale Vicioso
64 Gnome Enchanter
<retired>
60 Undead Mage
Hyjal <retired>
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

Winnow wrote:Right after Kerry started his attacks.
are you political affiliations so tenuous with reality that you feel it necessary to lie through your teeth?
User avatar
Metanis
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1417
Joined: July 5, 2002, 4:54 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Post by Metanis »

Kelshara wrote:heh yeah Bush started the shitthrowing this time.. at least I KNOW I saw his ads first.
Another interesting fact you might have learned from this subject... these groups target their adds to specific locations. The He said / She said aspect of this could play out differently depending which television market where you happen to reside.

The original Swift Boats ads only played in 3 states I think, just as the next ads will only play in 3 states.

I remember reading that of the Kerry ads also were targeted to certain states. Thus we have 50 different versions of this playing out nationally.

In any event "who's first" hardly matters. The "shitthrowing" as you deem it is as old as politics itself. Why shouldn't a candidate's character be a legitimate issue? We know all about Bush's youthful days as a party animal. We know all about his supposed period AWOL from guard duty. We know there's at least a chance he used cocaine. We know he had some business difficulties. We know a hell of a lot about Bush because his opponents made sure to tell us. I want Kerry examined similarly. In the end we will know both men have some warts but we will make a choice anyway.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

the issue is not the candidate's character.

the issue is television commercials lieing about somebody's character.

check out the editorial in Sunday's Chicago Tribune by a commander of a swiftboat along side Kerry's on the day he got his Silver Star.
User avatar
Metanis
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1417
Joined: July 5, 2002, 4:54 pm
Location: Wisconsin

Post by Metanis »

Voronwë wrote:the issue is not the candidate's character.
Pardon me? Who elected you God?

Voronwë wrote:the issue is television commercials lieing about somebody's character.
As opposed to documentaries?

Voronwë wrote: check out the editorial in Sunday's Chicago Tribune by a commander of a swiftboat along side Kerry's on the day he got his Silver Star.
I read it. It's compelling, but you have to wonder about a guy that won't allow himself to be questioned?
User avatar
Thess
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1036
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:34 am
Location: Connecticut

Post by Thess »

I appointed Voronwe god.
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

I read it. It's compelling, but you have to wonder about a guy that won't allow himself to be questioned?
He hasn't wanted to talk about the war whatsoever (through time he has even refused HIS OWN paper to interview him.. he doesn't want any part of the war anymore) and the only reason he said anything at all was beacuse of the blatant lies. And honestly, I think it says a lot of his character that he hasn't tried to sell himself and the war whatsoever through time (yes I don't like the bragging even from people I agree with).
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

The Facts in Moore's documentary bear close scrutiny even if you don't agree with the conclusions he draws.
The difference being that with these ads, The Facts don't bear such scrutiny.

Carry on.
A man with a fork
In a world of soup
Image
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

vn_Tanc wrote:The Facts in Moore's documentary bear close scrutiny even if you don't agree with the conclusions he draws.
The difference being that with these ads, The Facts don't bear such scrutiny.

Carry on.
I beg to differ. I seriously wonder what happened on that fabeled glorious day in Kerry's life. Did he turn and run, causing that guy to fall overboard? Did he then go back and "save" (LOL) him after the gun fire died down? Reports are the records from that day were taken from Kerry's account of what happened. Maybe the others went along because they got medals. Maybe some of them feel guilty. Maybe not. But, there is a story here for sure. Maybe if Kerry didn't try and get elected by his long terrible 4 months in Nam, these events wouldn't be so scrutinized.

Also, did you know, when Kerry volunteered for the swift boats, the swift boats had been doing relatively safe work off the coast of Nam. It wasn't until he joined them, that their mission was changed to patrolling within Nam itself? Interesting stuff.

I wish you people would be as open minded about this as you were so eager to accept Michael Moore's vision as gospel.
Lynks
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2774
Joined: September 30, 2002, 6:58 pm
XBL Gamertag: launchpad1979
Location: Sudbury, Ontario

Post by Lynks »

So you doubt Kerry's war record but you follow an imaginary threat of WMD.../boggle
User avatar
Siji
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4040
Joined: November 11, 2002, 5:58 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mAcK 624
PSN ID: mAcK_624
Wii Friend Code: 7304853446448491
Location: Tampa Bay, FL
Contact:

Post by Siji »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Also, did you know, when Kerry volunteered for the swift boats, the swift boats had been doing relatively safe work off the coast of Nam. It wasn't until he joined them, that their mission was changed to patrolling within Nam itself? Interesting stuff.
Did you know, that this has been covered repeatedly on other threads? Your ignorance, interesting stuff indeed.

As pointed out previously, he went. Even after the requested job became a dangerous one. He still went. He still served his time. He still did his duty. Where was your baby Bush? Oh, that's right.. nobody knows. Because he didn't show up. Nobody he supposedly served with remembers him. You want to try to point out a flaw in his (Kerry) character for requesting a safer position, when your hero didn't even bother to show up for his service? Please.
vn_Tanc
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2398
Joined: July 12, 2002, 12:32 pm
Location: UK

Post by vn_Tanc »

I wish you people would be as open minded about this as you were so eager to accept Michael Moore's vision as gospel
You wish people took Moore's word as gospel. The only people who spout blindly on that topic are his detractors.
A man with a fork
In a world of soup
Image
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Lynks wrote:So you doubt Kerry's war record but you follow an imaginary threat of WMD.../boggle
No, actually I don't. I believe they received faulty intelligence from numerous organizations and used that information to justify going to war with Iraq. I don't think for one minute they actually thought Saddam was an immenent threat. I have said numerous times, I'm happy with the outcome. I have high hopes from the future of Iraq and the middle-east. I believe the long-term is good for that region, assuming the people do what is necessary to make the best of the chance the coalition has given them.
User avatar
Kluden
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1827
Joined: November 13, 2002, 7:12 pm
Location: D.C.

Post by Kluden »

I'm changing my vote to Kerry now because of the Bush supporters on this board:

...the "sympathy factor" is taking hold!!!
User avatar
Sylvus
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7033
Joined: July 10, 2002, 11:10 am
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: mp72
Location: A², MI
Contact:

Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Also, did you know, when Kerry volunteered for the swift boats, the swift boats had been doing relatively safe work off the coast of Nam.
Relative to what? I'll grant you that they had been doing work that was relatively safer than storming Omaha Beach, but much more dangerous work than not even showing up for Air National Guard duty. The bottom line is that he left a really big boat farther off the shore to be on a smaller boat that had to go to the shore. Relative to what he had been doing, it was more dangerous. The change in mission for the swift boat then made it even more dangerous, relatively.

P.S. When Bush supporters stop trying to poke holes in the military service thing, the rest of the board will stop talking about it. PLEASE GOD MAKE IT STOP
Kluden wrote:I'm changing my vote to Kerry now because of the Bush supporters on this board
This board is really the main reason I'm probably going to vote for Kerry. I see the asinine opinions of the people who actually like Bush and think that we can't get him out of office fast enough. It's too bad that Kerry is the only viable alternative, I'm not a huge fan.
"It's like these guys take pride in being ignorant." - Barack Obama

Go Blue!
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

I don't think anybody here is a really huge Kerry fan (I know I'm not).. it is just that the alternative (FOUR MORE YEARS!!!) is unthinkable :)
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Sylvus, i would not have voted for Kerry had I anybody to choose from. In fact I didnt vote for him in the primaries (Edwards).

But there are 2 choices, and while he is far from a perfect candidate, he is much farther from as terrible a choice as Bush.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

Just want to clear a few things up...


Who is quoting Michael Moore or using any of the 'information' he presented in F9/11 to further their arguments?
Which 'Anti-Bush' posters have ever quoted or linked any crap from moveon.org?

I see more shit from Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh linked and quoted in one week here than I have ever seen from Michael Moore or moveon.org.
Seems like the only people who every mention moveon.org or Michael Moore are the neocons like Metanis, Midnyte, Brotha and that 'new' jackass.

Unlike the 'Anti-Kerry' camp, we 'liberals' don't rabidly seek out nutjob opinions and quote them as if they had any relevance or validity.


Midnyte, Brotha and Metanis seem to think that attacking the 'credibility' of Michael Moore counts for something. Since nobody on this forum would ever take the opinions of Michale Moore and present them as 100% factual, your attacks are rather misguided.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

miir wrote:Just want to clear a few things up...


Who is quoting Michael Moore or using any of the 'information' he presented in F9/11 to further their arguments?
Which 'Anti-Bush' posters have ever quoted or linked any crap from moveon.org?

I see more shit from Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh linked and quoted in one week here than I have ever seen from Michael Moore or moveon.org.
Seems like the only people who every mention moveon.org or Michael Moore are the neocons like Metanis, Midnyte, Brotha and that 'new' jackass.

Unlike the 'Anti-Kerry' camp, we 'liberals' don't rabidly seek out nutjob opinions and quote them as if they had any relevance or validity.


Midnyte, Brotha and Metanis seem to think that attacking the 'credibility' of Michael Moore counts for something. Since nobody on this forum would ever take the opinions of Michale Moore and present them as 100% factual, your attacks are rather misguided.
LOL

You don't need to quote moveon.org or Michael Moore. 99% of what comes out of your mouths is a mirror image of their stances. That is why you have and will continue to hear people(like me, Met, etc) make the connection and references.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

Care to cite some examples of that, or do you just like talking out your ass?
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Bubba Grizz
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 6121
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:52 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin

Post by Bubba Grizz »

Listen, on both sides of the fence, if the ads are lies then there is call to sue for liable and slander. If Kerry doesn't file a suit then there must be some kind of truth to the statements. Same thing on the other side.
Lynks
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2774
Joined: September 30, 2002, 6:58 pm
XBL Gamertag: launchpad1979
Location: Sudbury, Ontario

Post by Lynks »

I wouldn't think they have the time and/or the resources to start suing people during a campaign.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

miir wrote:Care to cite some examples of that, or do you just like talking out your ass?
Refer to the last 3 pages of posts. It's in the way you and the other ruling majority of liberals say things. Just like you refer to the way us neocons or whatever say things. You must be as oblivious to what you are just as we are. hmmmmm
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

heh every time you've been asked to quote, prove or go in detail you get really vague and end up saying nothing. Personally, Ive never been to MoveOn.org, never seen or read anything by Michael Moore etc.
User avatar
Brotha
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 943
Joined: September 6, 2002, 5:31 pm
Location: Houston, TX

Post by Brotha »

miir wrote:Midnyte, Brotha and Metanis seem to think that attacking the 'credibility' of Michael Moore counts for something. Since nobody on this forum would ever take the opinions of Michale Moore and present them as 100% factual, your attacks are rather misguided.
Where do I say that questioning Moore's credibility "counts" for something? I was really shocked when I read how much stuff Moore COMPLETELY MADE UP, yet he is still called a "documentary" film maker and is still taken somewhat seriously by the media.

To get back to the main topic, yeah I think most of the Swift Boat stuff is BS. I started reading the Swift Boat book at B&N (don't want to buy a thin hard back) and couldn't really get past page like 50. It sounds like it could have some basis in fact, until it starts talking about how "the only baby killer we knew in Vietnam was John Kerry," then the next chapter was about how Kerry would slaughter innocent animals, etc, etc. I really had to put it down then.

Having said that, my opinion of John Kerry and Vietnam hasn't really changed. He's still using a four month tour (one month of which was training) of Vietnam as the main pillar of his presidential campaign 35 years later, which is pretty freakin ridiculous. I think his shameful actions after he served his tour ecclipse anything he did during it.
kyoukan wrote:bush campaign started the kerry attack ads before the primaries were even half over.
So what if Bush used negative ads first? For months and months the democratic candidates, including Kerry, had been stumbling over each other trying to think up the most creative ways to attack Bush to get the most laughter and applause from partisan audiences- all on countless prime time televised debates. Bush didn't have that luxury.

Furthemore, what's so wrong about ads questioning Kerry's proposals and his record? I don't really call those "negative."

I mean, look at the title of this:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicsel ... -ads_x.htm
Bush unveils first negative ads, calls Kerry wrong on taxes, defense
Saying someone is "wrong" on key issues that separate our parties is some kind of travesty? Give me a break.
Last edited by Brotha on August 23, 2004, 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

Bill O'Reilly referred his listeners to Sunday's Washington Post article on the subject:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Aug21.html

He basically said that it is difficult to believe that the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth are being honest, pointing to Bill Rassmun's account of being rescued which is basically the lynch pin to the whole situation.

the article is interesting in that it points to factual inaccuracies from the Kerry camp as well as the more substantial factual errors from the Swifties.
User avatar
miir
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 11501
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:06 pm
XBL Gamertag: miir1
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by miir »

Personally, Ive never been to MoveOn.org, never seen or read anything by Michael Moore etc.
The only time I've visited moveon.org was when it was linked by one of our resident neocons. Too much radical op/ed. I suppose people who like to be told what to think might like that site.

I rented Bowling for Columbine and read a few pages of Stupid White Men (didn't like it much). Can't say I'm a fan of Michael Moore but he's very capable of making thought provoking entertainment.

Where do I say that questioning Moore's credibility "counts" for something? I was really shocked when I read how much stuff Moore COMPLETELY MADE UP, yet he is still called a "documentary" film maker and is still taken somewhat seriously by the media.
I dunno man, you guys like constantly bringing up Michael Moore. Hell if I know why. I doubt anyone here thinks his views are worthy of using to back up their own opions or points.

The reason the media loves him is for his sheer entertainment value.
The mere mention of the name Michael Moore gets people like yourself all hot and bothered. You guys always seem to squirm and scramble to discredit him.
There's a lot of bullshit in what he says but there is also some truth. Anyone with half a brain and a web browser can separate the 'fact' from the 'fiction'.
I've got 99 problems and I'm not dealing with any of them - Lay-Z
User avatar
Kaldaur
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1850
Joined: July 25, 2002, 2:26 am
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Kaldaur
Location: Illinois

Post by Kaldaur »

I'll trade you one Michael Moore card, vintage 1997, for one Ann Coulter and one Robert Novak, vintage 1993.

Seriously guys, let's drop quoting or citing the far-wingers on either party please. Contrary to popular belief, Michael Moore does not represent most liberals views. I went to see F 9-11 and could tell fact from exaggeration. I also know not to read Ann Coulter's filth. Just use some intelligence, and don't quote people or sources you know will be laughed out of VV.
User avatar
Midnyte_Ragebringer
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7062
Joined: July 4, 2002, 1:59 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: Daellyn
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania

Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kaldaur wrote: Contrary to popular belief, Michael Moore does not represent most liberals views..
Then why was he invited to the DNC and seated next to Jimmy Carter?

And why aren't the Dems calling for Michael Moore to stop like they are the Swift Boat Vets? Is their view on what happened less important than Michael Moores? These are reasonable questions to ask.
Post Reply