Too bad it's only Dennis Hasbert pushing for it. I'd be really curious to see how a VAT or sales tax model would work as opposed to income tax.REPUBLICANS PLAN PUSH FOR ELIMINATION OF IRS
**Exclusive**
A domestic centerpiece of the Bush/GOP agenda for a second Bush term is getting rid of the Internal Revenue Service, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.
The Speaker of the House will push for replacing the nation's current tax system with a national sales tax or a value added tax, Hill sources tell DRUDGE.
"People ask me if I’m really calling for the elimination of the IRS, and I say I think that’s a great thing to do for future generations of Americans," Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert explains in his new book, to be released on Wednesday.
"Pushing reform legislation will be difficult. Change of any sort seldom comes easy. But these changes are critical to our economic vitality and our economic security abroad," Hastert declares in SPEAKER: LESSONS FROM FORTY YEARS IN COACHING AND POLITICS.
"“If you own property, stock, or, say, one hundred acres of farmland and tax time is approaching, you don’t want to make a mistake, so you’re almost obliged to go to a certified public accountant, tax preparer, or tax attorney to help you file a correct return. That costs a lot of money. Now multiply the amount you have to pay by the total number of people who are in the same boat. You can’t. No one can because precise numbers don’t exist. But we can stipulate that we’re talking about a huge amount. Now consider that a flat tax, national sales tax, or VAT would not only eliminate the need to do this, it could also eliminate the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) itself and make the process of paying taxes much easier."
"By adopting a VAT, sales tax, or some other alternative, we could begin to change productivity. If you can do that, you can change gross national product and start growing the economy. You could double the economy over the next fifteen years. All of a sudden, the problem of what future generations owe in Social Security and Medicare won’t be so daunting anymore. The answer is to grow the economy, and the key to doing that is making sure we have a tax system that attracts capital and builds incentives to keep it here instead of forcing it out to other nations."
no more IRS in the US
no more IRS in the US
http://www.drudgereport.com/rnc.htm
- masteen
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Well, it's not like the IRS would just disappear. There would still have to be an organization to monitor the flow of revenues. But it would simplify the process a lot, encourage savings and investment, and eliminate a lot of tax dodges for the rich. You spend it, you get taxed
BTW, your new avatar is like the coolest. Make it yourself?
BTW, your new avatar is like the coolest. Make it yourself?
They would prolly keep the luxury tax, so those spending massive sums on yachts, exotic sports cars, ect. will still pay more than us non-Ferrari driving folks...Zaelath wrote:I'd love to get rid of tax returns... only trouble is you end up w/ a flat tax system that hurts low income earners and while the rich can't "dodge" tax since they have to spend their money eventually, they increase the gap based on earnings from their increased residual income.
Last edited by masteen on August 11, 2004, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Re: no more IRS in the US
Are you for real?kyoukan wrote:Too bad it's only Dennis Hasbert pushing for it. I'd be really curious to see how a VAT or sales tax model would work as opposed to income tax.
This is Republican electioneering. There's no way in hell the millions of accountants and tax lawyers will let themselves be put out of business by a simplified tax code.
Not only that, but, that would be another huge chunk of jobs that would be lost. The IRS Employs a shit-ton of people, add to that all the accountants...well...you get my picture, you would have a lot of people who are qualified for nothing. No one would need tax accountants anymore...
Last edited by Kluden on August 11, 2004, 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- masteen
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And that would be bad for the majority of us how? Damn, lawyers who specialize in hiding assets in offshore tax havens are our of work. OHS NOES!!!!Kluden wrote:Not only that, but, that would be another huge chunk of jobs that would be lost. The IRS Employs a shit-ton of people, add to that all the accountants...well...you get my picture, you would have a lot of people who are qualified for nothing. No one would need tax accountants anymore...
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
the economy would benefit in such a way that other jobs would be available. not to mention accountants would be needed to monitor the money flowing around businesses to control how much is going to the government. the job loss would be minimal.
VAT is the only way to go as it's the most fair other than just a national flat tax. the EU has it half right only they are charging VAT on top of regular income tax from their respective countries. =p
VAT is the only way to go as it's the most fair other than just a national flat tax. the EU has it half right only they are charging VAT on top of regular income tax from their respective countries. =p
Your hidden agenda is exposed. This isn't about fairness, this is about getting more.kyoukan wrote:the economy would benefit in such a way that other jobs would be available. not to mention accountants would be needed to monitor the money flowing around businesses to control how much is going to the government. the job loss would be minimal.
VAT is the only way to go as it's the most fair other than just a national flat tax. the EU has it half right only they are charging VAT on top of regular income tax from their respective countries. =p
There's always food stamps for the poor.Cartalas wrote:You mean dont have it on the food items in general right not just the poor.Sirton wrote:Im all for it...national sales tax....dont have it on food items for the poor ect. Ya have more cash ya buy more ya tax'd more.
Don't tax potatoes, rice, beans, ramen noodles or Lucky Charms and all will be fine.
Some grocery items similar to what Winnow said this part I think is much debatable....bread, milk, water, meat..hell maybe with it could eliminate gas tax..I think gas tax hurts the poor, many gotta drive to work too....they dont need that 50$+ expense in gas taxes a month. Nation sales tax would eliminate so much waste and knock out so many loop holes and there wouldnt be people who actually skip out on paying there taxes....You got more money, ya spend more money, ya pay more taxes.
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How is this wildly out of character for her?
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
I don't know about nation-wide, but here in the 'we can't vote right' state of Florida, we don't have sales tax on most basic food stuffs. Generally, if it is an unfinished product, there is no tax on it. But if it is a finished item, like crackers, subs or prepared meals, there is.
By avoiding placing a tax on basic goods, you can avoid dealing a blow to low income individuals. The main trick then would be how to deal with rent and mortages. Those could also be exempt, but you would lose a lot from middle and high income people.
There is another benefit I have not seen mentioned yet either. All those dirty Canadians and other undesirable foreigners would be coughing up money. Before someone bicthes, I was joking by the way.
Personally I like this and is one of the first 'real' republican ideas I have seen since Bush was elected. Now if we could just privitize several other areas, I think our budget would be in good shape.
Ofcourse, one of the problems you will see if just what to charge on goods and services. Will there simply be a flat rate of X percent on everything, or will you see a myriad system of 5% on gas, 10% on beer, 15% on cars and %2 on stocks, because than by selectively setting the amounts, you can penalize spending on certain segments while encouraging it on others. However, this does have some merit but I fear politicians would simply fuck it up. Imagine a tax of %15 on the gas you get at the pump and a luxury tax on SUV's.
By avoiding placing a tax on basic goods, you can avoid dealing a blow to low income individuals. The main trick then would be how to deal with rent and mortages. Those could also be exempt, but you would lose a lot from middle and high income people.
There is another benefit I have not seen mentioned yet either. All those dirty Canadians and other undesirable foreigners would be coughing up money. Before someone bicthes, I was joking by the way.
Personally I like this and is one of the first 'real' republican ideas I have seen since Bush was elected. Now if we could just privitize several other areas, I think our budget would be in good shape.
Ofcourse, one of the problems you will see if just what to charge on goods and services. Will there simply be a flat rate of X percent on everything, or will you see a myriad system of 5% on gas, 10% on beer, 15% on cars and %2 on stocks, because than by selectively setting the amounts, you can penalize spending on certain segments while encouraging it on others. However, this does have some merit but I fear politicians would simply fuck it up. Imagine a tax of %15 on the gas you get at the pump and a luxury tax on SUV's.
Kooky's sentance, "Too bad it's only Dennis Hasbert pushing for it. I'd be really curious to see how a VAT or sales tax model would work as opposed to income tax." is way too reasonable and benign for her.masteen wrote:How is this wildly out of character for her?
There isn't a single use of profanity or name calling although she couldn't bring herself to spell Hastert correctly.
Finally, liberals LOVE the progressive income tax. Kooky has posted before how she gives a large amount to the government. To the ultra-liberals like Kooky a VAT would be too repressive and unfair for the "working class". So I sense she is disingenuous with this thread.
Now I acknowledge that I may be wrong here, but then how does she propose to pay for the welfare state in the absence of an income tax? And how does she intend to penalize wealthy white men for their industry and labor?
I'm just curious too.
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winnow .. did you know that most people on foodstamps eat better then regular people? they buy shrimp/crablegs all sorts of expensive food and stuff most of them get around 500-600 a month for food and on top of that they get roughly 200 in cash that they can pull off of their FS card and do whatever they want with so roughly they get 800 bucks to play withWinnow wrote:There's always food stamps for the poor.Cartalas wrote:You mean dont have it on the food items in general right not just the poor.Sirton wrote:Im all for it...national sales tax....dont have it on food items for the poor ect. Ya have more cash ya buy more ya tax'd more.
Don't tax potatoes, rice, beans, ramen noodles or Lucky Charms and all will be fine.
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I agree with the fairness of a flat sales tax but I'd be weary that this could motivate people to earn money in the US and spend that money outside the US, a recipe for disaster.Metanis wrote:Kooky's sentance, "Too bad it's only Dennis Hasbert pushing for it. I'd be really curious to see how a VAT or sales tax model would work as opposed to income tax." is way too reasonable and benign for her.masteen wrote:How is this wildly out of character for her?
There isn't a single use of profanity or name calling although she couldn't bring herself to spell Hastert correctly.
Finally, liberals LOVE the progressive income tax. Kooky has posted before how she gives a large amount to the government. To the ultra-liberals like Kooky a VAT would be too repressive and unfair for the "working class". So I sense she is disingenuous with this thread.
Now I acknowledge that I may be wrong here, but then how does she propose to pay for the welfare state in the absence of an income tax? And how does she intend to penalize wealthy white men for their industry and labor?
I'm just curious too.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
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My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
I totally LOVE this idea, hell if I thought they Republicans could REALLY make this happen I would... <dare I say> vote for George W. Bush!
What I don't get is why people keep saying, "it would hurt the poor." Bullshit IMHO. You make $20K with a flat tax of 20% you pay $4000. You make $20M you pay $4,000,000 in taxes. Truth is that the person making 20K is already paying that or MORE in taxes while the person making $20,000,000 probably pays a quarter of it (1M) after all the loopholes.
Do a flat tax, don't tax food, gas, cigs etc... (we shouldn't have ANY "SIN" taxes anyway, legislation of morality though taxation is just a piss-poor idea no matter how you look at it IMHO) but tax the shit out of Cars priced over 50K or that drink gas. But leave Housing varable, and let the states handle it due to the pricing difference in houses around the country and it would keep some of those accountanta busy
Ah if I were Emperor, the world would be a better place...
j/k
Cheers!
Marb
What I don't get is why people keep saying, "it would hurt the poor." Bullshit IMHO. You make $20K with a flat tax of 20% you pay $4000. You make $20M you pay $4,000,000 in taxes. Truth is that the person making 20K is already paying that or MORE in taxes while the person making $20,000,000 probably pays a quarter of it (1M) after all the loopholes.
Do a flat tax, don't tax food, gas, cigs etc... (we shouldn't have ANY "SIN" taxes anyway, legislation of morality though taxation is just a piss-poor idea no matter how you look at it IMHO) but tax the shit out of Cars priced over 50K or that drink gas. But leave Housing varable, and let the states handle it due to the pricing difference in houses around the country and it would keep some of those accountanta busy

Ah if I were Emperor, the world would be a better place...

Cheers!
Marb
Ultra liberal? I'm not even a liberal. I'm a lot more fiscally conservative than some war mongering armchair general like yourself.Metanis wrote:[Finally, liberals LOVE the progressive income tax. Kooky has posted before how she gives a large amount to the government. To the ultra-liberals like Kooky a VAT would be too repressive and unfair for the "working class". So I sense she is disingenuous with this thread.
Don't confuse yourself with real economic conservatism. Just because you hate muslims and love Bush doesn't make you much more than pathetic neocon trash. You could put the biggest liberal democrat in the entire country in the white house and his administration wouldn't come close to what your hero has spent so far. The amount of money you morons have spent getting Cheney and his friends rich in Iraq could quadruple what you spend on education.
I challenge you or anyone to post in here what you think makes me a liberal other than my enormous hatred for the redneck sitting in the white house (with 60% of his time on vacation in texas).
/yawnkyoukan wrote:Ultra liberal? I'm not even a liberal. I'm a lot more fiscally conservative than some war mongering armchair general like yourself.Metanis wrote:[Finally, liberals LOVE the progressive income tax. Kooky has posted before how she gives a large amount to the government. To the ultra-liberals like Kooky a VAT would be too repressive and unfair for the "working class". So I sense she is disingenuous with this thread.
Don't confuse yourself with real economic conservatism. Just because you hate muslims and love Bush doesn't make you much more than pathetic neocon trash. You could put the biggest liberal democrat in the entire country in the white house and his administration wouldn't come close to what your hero has spent so far. The amount of money you morons have spent getting Cheney and his friends rich in Iraq could quadruple what you spend on education.
I challenge you or anyone to post in here what you think makes me a liberal other than my enormous hatred for the redneck sitting in the white house (with 60% of his time on vacation in texas).
- Dregor Thule
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/yawn and "I challenge you are anyone" in bold? That's your idea of a retort? Why not just take some forceps and pry open your own asshole because you obviously like being made to look like someones bitch.Metanis wrote:/yawnkyoukan wrote:Ultra liberal? I'm not even a liberal. I'm a lot more fiscally conservative than some war mongering armchair general like yourself.Metanis wrote:[Finally, liberals LOVE the progressive income tax. Kooky has posted before how she gives a large amount to the government. To the ultra-liberals like Kooky a VAT would be too repressive and unfair for the "working class". So I sense she is disingenuous with this thread.
Don't confuse yourself with real economic conservatism. Just because you hate muslims and love Bush doesn't make you much more than pathetic neocon trash. You could put the biggest liberal democrat in the entire country in the white house and his administration wouldn't come close to what your hero has spent so far. The amount of money you morons have spent getting Cheney and his friends rich in Iraq could quadruple what you spend on education.
I challenge you or anyone to post in here what you think makes me a liberal other than my enormous hatred for the redneck sitting in the white house (with 60% of his time on vacation in texas).
I would back a VAT replacing Income Tax, or even a flat 15% tax. The current system is flawed beyond repair. Look a major party adopting a plank from the Libertarian platform.!
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1. Read her hate filled response. I don't debate in those terms.Dregor Thule wrote:/yawn and "I challenge you are anyone" in bold? That's your idea of a retort? Why not just take some forceps and pry open your own asshole because you obviously like being made to look like someones bitch.
2. She's not interested in debating, she's just flaming.
3. She's been proven wrong time and time again.
4. She's not worth my time or energy... or anyone elses either.
5. What's your excuse? You aren't too impressive either.
6. Who are you to school me on what's appropriate here?
If that makes me look like someones bitch then so be it.
The biggest potential downside of a VAT is it is usually a hidden tax. How much of the end product's price is due to the tax is usually not known. This allows more leeway for governments to hike the taxes without it being as immediately apparent. There may be ways of addressing this, but it is something to keep in mind.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.
– Benjamin Franklin
– Benjamin Franklin
heh couldn't that just as well be about you? Or most others here? Fact is, you have nothing to say in response to what she said.1. Read her hate filled response. I don't debate in those terms.
2. She's not interested in debating, she's just flaming.
3. She's been proven wrong time and time again.
4. She's not worth my time or energy... or anyone elses either.
5. What's your excuse? You aren't too impressive either.
6. Who are you to school me on what's appropriate here?
I don't think the VAT would be hidden. In Canada we don't have VAT but we have GST which is basically the same. In the EU they pay a VAT. In both cases the VAT is added on at the point of sale. So if you buy something for $100 when you take it to the till you pay $100 plus the tax.
The GST was originally going to be a hidden price but a) retailers and the service industry balked because they didnt want their "on the shelf" prices to look higher, and b) consumers didn't want the tax to be raised and lowered without their knowledge.
The GST was originally going to be a hidden price but a) retailers and the service industry balked because they didnt want their "on the shelf" prices to look higher, and b) consumers didn't want the tax to be raised and lowered without their knowledge.
Having worked in the accounting field since 1997 I can confidently say if we sank all CPAs, IRS employees and tax attorneys to the deepest part of the ocean the world would be a better place.Kluden wrote:Not only that, but, that would be another huge chunk of jobs that would be lost. The IRS Employs a shit-ton of people, add to that all the accountants...well...you get my picture, you would have a lot of people who are qualified for nothing. No one would need tax accountants anymore...
Dregor Thule wrote:/yawn and "I challenge you are anyone" in bold? That's your idea of a retort? Why not just take some forceps and pry open your own asshole because you obviously like being made to look like someones bitch.Metanis wrote:/yawnkyoukan wrote:Ultra liberal? I'm not even a liberal. I'm a lot more fiscally conservative than some war mongering armchair general like yourself.Metanis wrote:[Finally, liberals LOVE the progressive income tax. Kooky has posted before how she gives a large amount to the government. To the ultra-liberals like Kooky a VAT would be too repressive and unfair for the "working class". So I sense she is disingenuous with this thread.
Don't confuse yourself with real economic conservatism. Just because you hate muslims and love Bush doesn't make you much more than pathetic neocon trash. You could put the biggest liberal democrat in the entire country in the white house and his administration wouldn't come close to what your hero has spent so far. The amount of money you morons have spent getting Cheney and his friends rich in Iraq could quadruple what you spend on education.
I challenge you or anyone to post in here what you think makes me a liberal other than my enormous hatred for the redneck sitting in the white house (with 60% of his time on vacation in texas).
Last edited by Cartalas on August 12, 2004, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
No, actually I generally refrain from the vicious personal attacks.Kelshara wrote:heh couldn't that just as well be about you? Or most others here? Fact is, you have nothing to say in response to what she said.1. Read her hate filled response. I don't debate in those terms.
2. She's not interested in debating, she's just flaming.
3. She's been proven wrong time and time again.
4. She's not worth my time or energy... or anyone elses either.
5. What's your excuse? You aren't too impressive either.
6. Who are you to school me on what's appropriate here?
As far as responding to what she said, please, you make the call... what part of her vitriol should be condered fit for response?
And the fact is that most people on this board do not stoop to Kooky's level.
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Conservative:
A conservative is a person to the right of center on the U.S. political spectrum. Of the two main political parties, the Republican Party is regarded as being the more conservative. Conservatives tend to uphold tradition and oppose major changes in laws and institutions. Change, when thought to be necessary, should be gradual and minimal. Conservatives generally oppose "big government" and support free-market economic policies and low taxes.
Liberal:
Favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, or socioeconomic conditions; specifically, favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive. Liberals tend to favor greater federal power to remedy social inequities, and to support freedom of personal choice and behavior. Liberals are described as being left of center on the political spectrum. Of the two major political parties, the Democratic Party is generally regarded as being more liberal.
There you go Xzion. I hope that clears things up for some people.
A conservative is a person to the right of center on the U.S. political spectrum. Of the two main political parties, the Republican Party is regarded as being the more conservative. Conservatives tend to uphold tradition and oppose major changes in laws and institutions. Change, when thought to be necessary, should be gradual and minimal. Conservatives generally oppose "big government" and support free-market economic policies and low taxes.
Liberal:
Favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, or socioeconomic conditions; specifically, favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive. Liberals tend to favor greater federal power to remedy social inequities, and to support freedom of personal choice and behavior. Liberals are described as being left of center on the political spectrum. Of the two major political parties, the Democratic Party is generally regarded as being more liberal.
There you go Xzion. I hope that clears things up for some people.
Pussy liberal is a political tag. It's the equivalent to calling me a neocon.Voronwë wrote:oh shut up, you throw around the term "pussy liberals" like it is the word "if".
don't pussy out of calling people pussies, you pussy
I think that is fine.
Kooky routinely tries to imply or call people racists or bigots.
I don't think that is fine.kyoukun wrote:Just because you hate muslims
- Adex_Xeda
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Damn, by those definitions I'm not a conservative. Definately not a liberal however.Sylvos wrote:Conservative:
A conservative is a person to the right of center on the U.S. political spectrum. Of the two main political parties, the Republican Party is regarded as being the more conservative. Conservatives tend to uphold tradition and oppose major changes in laws and institutions. Change, when thought to be necessary, should be gradual and minimal. Conservatives generally oppose "big government" and support free-market economic policies and low taxes.
Liberal:
Favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, or socioeconomic conditions; specifically, favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual; progressive. Liberals tend to favor greater federal power to remedy social inequities, and to support freedom of personal choice and behavior. Liberals are described as being left of center on the political spectrum. Of the two major political parties, the Democratic Party is generally regarded as being more liberal.
I need a new label. I'm sure Kyo could find an appropriate slur ridden title for me.
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Oh bullshit.Pussy liberal is a political tag. It's the equivalent to calling me a neocon.
I think that is fine.
Pussy : Slang. A man regarded as weak, timid, or unmanly
Liberal : See definition above.
Neocon : Neoconservative
Neo : new
Conservative : See definition above
Neoconservatism : An intellectual and political movement in favor of political, economic, and social conservatism that arose in opposition to the perceived liberalism of the 1960s:
If the prefix 'Nutjob', 'Shithead' or 'Retard' were added to neocon, it would be as boorish as 'Pussy Liberal'.
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