Here we go again....

[Jice Virago]

Check this shit out.

And people laughed when this was predicted a year ago.

On Monday, Bush accused Iran of harboring suspected al Qaeda members and developing nuclear weapons. If the country's Islamic government is to improve ties with Washington, the president said, it must hand over any al Qaeda members to their home countries, abandon its suspected nuclear weapons program and end its support of Islamic militant groups such as Hezbollah, which the United States considers to be a terrorist organization.

"As to direct connections to September 11, we're digging into the facts to determine if there was one," Bush said

Phase one of the propaganda machine has begun.

[Lalanae]

holy fucking shit

Its like deja vu, except I feel really really sick now.

[Krurk]

Atleast this time we would be going into a country that really is a threat to regional stability. The greatest threat Iraq posed was to itself.

Without going into the long backstory, Iran is viewed by most of its neighbors in the region as a serious threat to their political stability.

[Dregor Thule]

Who had Iran in the pool? Christ..

[Winnow]

Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was.

I doubt I laughed at you a year ago Jice. Do you have a link to your post back then?

[Lalanae]

Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was.

yeah, I bet all those people who died in Iraq and their families consider it a "cakewalk"

Fucking insensitive shit

[Winnow]

Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was.

yeah, I bet all those people who died in Iraq and their families consider it a "cakewalk"

Fucking insensitive shit

What is your point? Militarily it was a cakewalk campared to a conflict with Iran. If you're going to be sensitive about it go read the girlie man thread.

[Xouqoa]

Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was.

yeah, I bet all those people who died in Iraq and their families consider it a "cakewalk"

Fucking insensitive shit

In terms of overall wartime casualties, Iraq has the lowest of all time - or close to it I think. (Remember reading about it somewhere, but no - no source.)

That said, it does suck for the ones that were killed and for their families. I think Winnow just meant a lot MORE people are going to die if we decide to take on Iran.

[Lalanae]

Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was.

yeah, I bet all those people who died in Iraq and their families consider it a "cakewalk"

Fucking insensitive shit

What is your point? Militarily it was a cakewalk campared to a conflict with Iran. If you're going to be sensitive about it go read the girlie man thread.

Its easy for you to sit back in your white collar job and belittle the sacrifices people have made for this waste of a war. Who's the girlie man? The man who recognizes and sympathized with the losses or the one who think he knows what the military is all about just because his daddy was in it?

[Karae]

Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq was.

lol. Iraq was and is anything but a cakewalk.

I understand what you're saying about Iran being more difficult than Iraq, but cakewalk is a poor choice of words for describing the situation in Iraq.

The current war in Iraq has the 4th lowest American casualties all-time (8525 casualties), behind the first Gulf War and the War of 1812. Given its scope and duration in comparison to the American Revolutionary War, the War of 1812, the American Civil War, the Mexican-American War, World War I, World War II, Korea, and Vietnam it's no wonder the casualty count is much lower than all of them. \

The official killed in action count is currently 896 - however that doesn't include people who die in hospitals after being wounded only those who die "in action." The count places the war 3rd against other wars real death count (including those who died in hospitals). One could easily speculate that it would place higher if the real death count were known.

[Winnow]

Its easy for you to sit back in your white collar job and belittle the sacrifices people have made for this waste of a war. Who's the girlie man? The man who recognizes and sympathized with the losses or the one who think he knows what the military is all about just because his daddy was in it?

There is no relation between me calling Iraq a cakewalk in comparison to another potential conflict and my sensitivity to the sacrifices of the men and women currently in Iraq.

As an example, I could say steamrolling (blitzkrieg) Poland was a cakewalk for Hitler. It doesn't mean I'm insensitive to the polish people that died or suffered. I'm stating my opinion from a military perspective.

It was simply a comparison and I stand by my cakewalk term as I don't feel like finding a more sensitive term for you.

Steamrolling Kuwait was a cakewalk for Iraq as well. I don't think a Kuwaiti would disagree.

I am also not discounting the great planning that went into our efforts in Iraq that resulted in such few casualties during the initial days of the campaign.

[Karae]

There is no relation between me calling Iraq a cakewalk in comparison to another potential conflict and my sensitivity to the sacrifices of the men and women currently in Iraq.

In your first post, you didn't say Iraq would be a cakewalk in comparison to Iran, you said Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk like Iraq. Those are very different statements. That being said, I don't find your initial statement offensive...just inaccurate.

[Avestan]

We can't go in, but to hold any sway at all in negotiations, they have to believe we are willing to. There is no way we would do this without broad international support (no I did not say this before Iraq), but we have to take a strong public stand against them.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Watch out Winnow the word police are after you. "Cakewalk" bad!!!!


Predicting we may go after Iran next is like predicting that in American Wedding, Stiffler would say fuck a bunch of times.

Be proud of that I guess Jice. Most of us all saw it coming next.

If we finish up in Iraq, take some time to re-group and re-equip then I'm 100% behind either a Democrat run America or Republican run America, cleaning out Iran, if it is deemed crucial to do so.

[Kylere]

Umm I was IN COUNTRY for the Cake Walk 1 err Gulf War 1, and the second while not as simple was in military terms a cakewalk. Actual loses to military forces rivaled the mid 200's Britain lost during the Falklands War when several people were predicting a blood bath before hand for the US. BTW I read the lists everyday of casualties as I have several close friends in Iraq, and I fear for them, but the casualty count is artificially raised by people including natural deaths and accidents.

The Iraqis rolled over, and in military terms the Iranians are perhaps 10% better off, their equipment is outdated, their forces have poor training, poor esprit de corpl and they are not exactly dedicated troopies since most of the data coming out of Iran indicates a dissastified populace. Of course post war would be the same slow kill off we are experiencing in Iraq.

We would destroy their entire Air Force that dared to fly within 12 hours of engagement, hell Phoenix missiles from 100k's out could do it without even violating their airspace, 48 hours in Apaches/A-10s and fighter bombers would remove most of their effective armour and vehicle assets and the resulting bomb raids, tomahawk strikes and evidenced air power would remove the little remaining morale of their forces. This scenario would not be true in a country with major ground cover, but most of the middle east has none.

[Lalanae]

and the dick waving begins...

[Zaelath]

No one doubts the US has the ability to "take" any hill, it's more a problem of you have too many hills to hold...

[Kylere]

and the dick waving begins...

Lalanae, get the dick out of your mouth and you will see it wave. I made a staement of fact, not of bragging or anything else. Merely fact.

[Kylere]

No one doubts the US has the ability to "take" any hill, it's more a problem of you have too many hills to hold...

I agree that the US is already overextended, barring the declaration of military law following a major attack in the United States during the elections.

[Silvarel Mistmoon]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5460688/



“We want to know all of the facts,” Bush said when asked about reports that at least eight of the 19 hijackers passed through Iran before attacking the United States.

The commission investigating the attacks will detail links between al-Qaida and Iran in its final report this week, raising new questions about why Bush turned his focus to Iraq after Sept. 11, 2001. The commission has found more al-Qaida contacts with Iran than with Iraq, officials said.


“If the Iranians would like to have better relations with the United States there are some things they must do,” including halting the country’s alleged nuclear weapons program and support for terrorism, Bush said.

The New York Times reported on Sunday that the Iranian government had ordered its border guards not to stamp the passports of Saudi al-Qaida members moving through Iran after training in Afghanistan.

An Iranian stamp could have made the al-Qaida members subject to additional scrutiny upon entering the United States, U.S. officials said.



And from the site listed in the original post.............

Bush said the CIA has found no sign of a direct connection between Iran and the suicide hijackings that killed nearly 3,000 people.

"We will continue to look and see if the Iranians were involved," he said.

"I have long expressed my concerns about Iran. After all, it is a totalitarian society where free people are not allowed to exercise their rights as human beings."

The bipartisan, independent commission investigating the 9/11 attacks is expected to issue its final report this week.

The commission has found that eight to 10 of the hijackers passed through Iran between October 2000 and February 2001, Time magazine reported this week.

The magazine said that commission investigators have found that Iran had a history of allowing al Qaeda members to enter and leave the country across the Afghan border.

[Rasspotari]

and the dick waving begins...

i call it a way of saying "i got a bomb and i'm so rich i dont have to strap it tomyself to get the message across" or in other words, "i kill people and dont think twice about it, because i care about my people more then i care about those i'm removing from this planet"

terrorist , army , i see not much difference.

[Truant]

and the dick waving begins...

Lalanae, get the dick out of your mouth and you will see it wave. I made a staement of fact, not of bragging or anything else. Merely fact.

uncalled for.

And you may see your post as fact, but I doubt anyone else reading it could interpret it that way.

[Voronwë]

until we draft about 75,000 more troops and train them for a couple of years, we wont be going into Iran.

but at least they are a country actually developing WMDs, nukes, and al qaeda ties.

the reason that this is likely being done now, is because we strengthened Iran's position in the region by our poor decision, and poorer execution of the post-war scenario. We allowed Jihadists to freely flow from Iran into Iraq and foment the insurgency, and here we are a year later with members of the Iraqi government getting picked off one by one.

The Iranian terrain is pretty bad. NOt as bad as Afghanistan, but not that great. At any rate, there is no way Bush would even consider tilting his hand before Nov. 3rd if he wanted to truly go to Iran.

oh yeah, what about the 15 people from SAUDI ARABIA who were in on 9/11?

i heard an interview with a pretty left wing guy today that i am interested in though. basically he is the author of this book called "Blowback", which is a CIA term for basically creating your future enemies. In 1950 according to this dude, the CIA facilitated the overthrow of the Iranian government at the behest of Western petrochemical interests. Apparently, the natives wanted more control of their natural resources than they had or something. Long story short, somewhere later on the fundamentalist anti-Western revolt in hte late 70s.

anyways, this could be an interesting point of conversation for this thread. the validity of "blowback" and whether or not Iran is such a case.

[Lalanae]

and the dick waving begins...

Lalanae, get the dick out of your mouth and you will see it wave. I made a staement of fact, not of bragging or anything else. Merely fact.

Well tell me Kylere, amatuer sex therapist, if the dick has a condom on it is it really dick waving?

[Winnow]

Here's a brief history of Iran since WW2 up until the ousting of the Shah of Iran in 1979 to help along the debate:

During World War II, Britain and the USSR were concerned by Reza Shah's friendly relations with Germany. In 1941 the two countries invaded and occupied large areas of Iran. They forced Reza Shah to abdicate, and in the absence of a viable alternative, permitted Mohammad Reza to assume the throne. The new shah's reign began against a backdrop of social and political disarray, economic problems, and food shortages. Despite his vow to act as a constitutional monarch who would defer to the power of the parliamentary government, Mohammad Reza increasingly involved himself in governmental affairs and opposed or thwarted strong prime ministers. Prone to indecision, however, Mohammad Reza relied more on manipulation than on leadership. He concentrated on reviving the army and ensuring that it would remain under royal control as the monarchy's main power base. In 1949 an assassination attempt on the Shah, attributed to the pro-Soviet Tudeh Party, resulted in the banning of that party and the expansion of the Shah's constitutional powers.

In the context of regional turmoil and the Cold War, the Shah established himself as an indispensable ally of the West. Domestically, he advocated reform policies, culminating in the 1963 program known as the White Revolution, which included land reform, the extension of voting rights to women, and the elimination of illiteracy.

These measures and the increasing arbitrariness of the Shah's rule provoked both religious leaders who feared losing their traditional authority and students and intellectuals seeking democratic reforms. These opponents criticized the Shah for violation of the constitution, which placed limits on royal power and provided for a representative government, and for subservience to the United States. The Shah saw himself as heir to the kings of ancient Iran, and in 1971 he held an extravagant celebration of 2,500 years of Persian monarchy. In 1976 he replaced the Islamic calendar with an "imperial" calendar, which began with the foundation of the Persian empire more than 25 centuries earlier. These actions were viewed as anti-Islamic and resulted in religious opposition.

The shah's regime suppressed and marginalized its opponents with the help of Iran's security and intelligence organization, the Savak. Relying on oil revenues, which sharply increased in late 1973, the Shah pursued his goal of developing Iran as a mighty regional power dedicated to social reform and economic development. Yet he continually sidestepped democratic arrangements and refused to allow meaningful civic and political liberties, remaining unresponsive to public opinion.

By the mid-1970s the Shah reigned amidst widespread discontent caused by the continuing repressiveness of his regime, socioeconomic changes that benefited some classes at the expense of others, and the increasing gap between the ruling elite and the disaffected populace. Islamic leaders, particularly the exiled cleric Khomeyni, were able to focus this discontent with a populist ideology tied to Islamic principles and calls for the overthrow of the shah. The Shah's government collapsed following widespread uprisings in 1978 and 1979. His regime was succeeded by an Islamic government under Khomeyni.

Beset by advanced cancer, the shah left Iran in January 1979 to begin a life in exile. He lived in Egypt, Morocco, the Bahamas, and Mexico before going to the United States for treatment of lymphatic cancer. His arrival in New York City led to the Iranian takeover of the American Embassy in Tehran and the taking hostage of more than 50 Americans for 444 days.

[Niffoni]

terrorist , army , i see not much difference.

Terrorists' families get better compensation packages when they die.

[Karae]

and the dick waving begins...

Lalanae, get the dick out of your mouth and you will see it wave. I made a staement of fact, not of bragging or anything else. Merely fact.

uncalled for.

And you may see your post as fact, but I doubt anyone else reading it could interpret it that way.

Maybe Midnyte or Winnow?

Yea, sure, we destroyed their planes and tanks, but we didn't destroy their spirit. Iraq isn't a cakewalk and it has nothing to do with planes or tanks.

[Siji]

No one doubts the US has the ability to "take" any hill, it's more a problem of you have too many hills to hold...

There are several places in the world that I don't think we couldn't 'take'. We could win via nukes, but that's an entirely different matter. If the US tosses a nuke at anyone without something 10x more drastic than 9/11 happening, I'd think we'd have the rest of the world after us as a whole.

[Zaelath]

Yeah.. umm.. Iran is in trouble cause they 9/11 jackers "travelled through" Iran? What ya'll bombing next, Canada? I hear that's a major vector for terrorists entry into the US.

[Cartalas]

"“If the Iranians would like to have better relations with the United States there are some things they must do,” including halting the country’s alleged nuclear weapons program and support for terrorism, Bush said. "


Umm I dont see a problem with this all he said was if they want better relations this is what they must do.

[Hesten]

Hmmm, one of the 9/11 terrorists was studying in germany and got some flight training there, AND since germany is now 1 country, i guess you could say that Germany was training terrorists during the cold war.

Guess the US will take Germany next then

[Lynks]

Don't forget that the US trained some of them too. I think they should go after themselves next.

[Cartalas]

Hmmm, one of the 9/11 terrorists was studying in germany and got some flight training there, AND since germany is now 1 country, i guess you could say that Germany was training terrorists during the cold war.

Guess the US will take Germany next then

Damn speaking of cake walks.

[Silvarel Mistmoon]

If you are telling members of a known terrorists group they are welcome in your country and doing things like not stamping their passport possibly to help hide their paths they take or their hiding places you might be a terrorist supporter................

Here's your sign!

There is a difference in finding out you have known terrorists training in your country verses opening your boarders to them and showing them support while doing so.

[Deward]

As someone stated previously, there can be no war in Iran unless the draft is reinstated. We would have to abandon most of our posts around the world to do so and call up all the National Guards and Reserves. My guess is that this is just the start of rhetoric to gauge American support. If the support is there then I wouldn't be surprised to see some tactical strikes done against nuclear facilities and such.

[Voronwë]

Hmmm, one of the 9/11 terrorists was studying in germany and got some flight training there, AND since germany is now 1 country, i guess you could say that Germany was training terrorists during the cold war.

Guess the US will take Germany next then

Damn speaking of cake walks.

yeah i only think we lost like 400,000 troops the last time we fought them...

Iran may be on the long term map though. We will have some bases in Iraq and some (at least secret) bases in Afghanistan. So we will have 2 of their borders taken care of. I think they will find it in their interest to shape up. But they might not since they are a religious government, and which puts one in an intractable negotiating opinion when you wrap yourself in the rainments of righteousness.

[Cartalas]

Country Military casualties Civilian casualties
Germany 3.250.000 3.810.000
Austria 230.000 80.000
Italy 330.000 85.000
Rumania 200.000 465.000
Hungary 120.000 280.000
Bulgaria 10.000 7.000
Finland 90.000 n/a
Japan 1.700.000 360.000



Allied ww2 casualties

Country Military casualties Civilian casualties
British Empire and Commonwealth 452.000 60.000
France 250.000 360.000
USA 295.000 ---
Soviet Union 13.600.000 7.700.000
Belgium 10.000 90.000
Holland 10.000 190.000
Norway 10.000 n/a
Poland 120.000 5.300.000
Greece 20.000 80.000
Yugoslavia 300.000 1.300.000
Checoslovaquia 20.000 330.000
China 3.500.000 10.000.000

[Thess]

You know, Al Qaeda not only passed through Iran, but many of the states in the US.

[Cartalas]

You know, Al Qaeda not only passed through Iran, but many of the states in the US.

Invade them then damnit

[Xouqoa]

Some of them reportedly learned to fly at Embry-Riddle University in Florida. Florida also screwed up the election in 2000. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!

Florida -----------> Axis of Evil

[Lalanae]

Some of them reportedly learned to fly at Embry-Riddle University in Florida. Florida also screwed up the election in 2000. Coincidence? I THINK NOT!

Florida -----------> Axis of Evil

And my grandma lives there. That's enough to convince me!

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The official killed in action count is currently 896 - however that doesn't include people who die in hospitals after being wounded only those who die "in action." The count places the war 3rd against other wars real death count (including those who died in hospitals). One could easily speculate that it would place higher if the real death count were known.

You are full of shit and so is whatever source you wiped your ass with after you finished reading it. You do realize that casualty counts include any injury? Some dickwad trips over his boots while taking a piss and he ends up chalked down as a "casualty".

Go back and check your counts against real numbers and not some made up liberal bullshit who is speculating about how many people have died....then come back and spin it some more.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Just a small quick rundown of wars I found in the last 15 minutes where the U.S. lost more people than they have in Iraq.

WW1 ---116,000
WW2 ---400,000
Revolutionary War --- 70,000
Civil War ---600,000
Vietnam --- 58,000
Phillipine Insurgency ---4200 (from 1899-1902)
Korea --- 36,000
Cambodian Civil War and Laos --- 1000

Now kindly shut the fuck up and go back and ask your professors why they don't teach you shit you might need to know someday.

[Dregor Thule]

The official killed in action count is currently 896 - however that doesn't include people who die in hospitals after being wounded only those who die "in action." The count places the war 3rd against other wars real death count (including those who died in hospitals). One could easily speculate that it would place higher if the real death count were known.

You are full of shit and so is whatever source you wiped your ass with after you finished reading it. You do realize that casualty counts include any injury? Some dickwad trips over his boots while taking a piss and he ends up chalked down as a "casualty".

Go back and check your counts against real numbers and not some made up liberal bullshit who is speculating about how many people have died....then come back and spin it some more.

Apparently you're both wrong, according to CNN.

The death brings the number of U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war to 899, including 666 in combat.

Now if CNN is some liberal bullshit source, then isn't my face red. Oh and Kilmoll, quote all the damned number of US deaths from previous wars all you want. Of course they're much lower, it's a one-sided war. Imagine what the casualties would have been like if the Iraqi military wasn't hopelessly outgunned and outmanned.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The current war in Iraq has the 4th lowest American casualties all-time (8525 casualties)

Dregor, just in case you wake up long enough to read an entire thread, this is what I was referring to about casualty counts. Casualty counts and death counts are not the same thing. In your language, Casualty counts != death counts.

Of course the deaths are lower....and it is mostly one-sided. Were you not one of the chicken littles who predicted 10's of thousands of U.S. troops would die in the first month of this war?

More people will die in their bathtubs or swimming pools this week in the U.S. than have died in this war to date. I feel for the people who lose their family members in either way....but the death toll on our side in that war is fucking miniscule for any war in history.

[Winnow]

Of course they're much lower, it's a one-sided war. Imagine what the casualties would have been like if the Iraqi military wasn't hopelessly outgunned and outmanned.

If Iraq wasn't hopelessly outgunned and outmanned we would have kept bombing them until they were before entering the ground campaign. A strategian you are not!

[miir]

Go back and check your counts against real numbers and not some made up liberal bullshit who is speculating about how many people have died....then come back and spin it some more.

Karae listed both the casualties and the deaths.
From what I gather, both figures are accurate as supplied by the US military. Is the US military spewing liberal bullshit again?

[Forthe]

Not that it matters but just for trivia sake. Iraq KIA was outpacing vietnam during the same time period. I'm not sure if that is still the case and have no desire to look it up. Vietnam started with a trickle.

[Winnow]

Not that it matters but just for trivia sake. Iraq KIA was outpacing vietnam during the same time period. I'm not sure if that is still the case and have no desire to look it up. Vietnam started with a trickle.

When exactly did you start the timers for Iraq and Vietnam?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

The official killed in action count is currently 896 - however that doesn't include people who die in hospitals after being wounded only those who die "in action."



One could easily speculate that it would place higher if the real death count were known.

Quoting to make this easier for Canadian #2 to read and understand.

Now as to what someone posted from CNN earlier.

Apparently you're both wrong, according to CNN.

Quote:
The death brings the number of U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war to 899, including 666 in combat.

Now if you are struggling to understand what I have put forth here, it basically says Karae is full of shit.

I also am basically calling some of the casualty numbers from the U.S. full of shit as well....as even the minor injuries are counted as casualties. Kylere can either refute or back this up if he wishes as I have not witnessed any of their accounts firsthand in any conflict....and I am sure he has.