National Debt

[Forthe]

Moving this here as it is more apporpriate than the Movie forum:

Democrats spend more....which means they tax more. More taxes means that people are tighter with their disposable income...or have less of it. Less disposable income means less cash that they will spend on services. Services industries is where the U.S. is going to see the biggest increase of jobs.....the manufacturing is going out of country because no one has the balls to stand up and put a stop to it. So tax us heavier and you will end up crippling the economy in the U.S. This is not the U.S. of the past where manufacturing was the strength of our economy.

This has long ago stopped being true. Yes Bush reduced taxes, the majority of those $ saved go to a minority of citizens however, but he spends like there is tomorrow. Deficit spending.

Americans never talk about the national debt (most Canadians are no better but our government is paying down national debt in any case). You will only see it mentioned in passing. But the national debt isn't some random number that only future generations have to worry about, it affects you today as that debt has to be serviced.

As the national debt increases more and more of your tax dollars are going towards just the servicing of that debt while still leaving the burden on future generations. So while the tax breaks have gone mostly to the rich, everyone has to carry the burden of servicing the debt incurred by those tax cuts. As the % of taxes needed to service that debt increases the government must raise taxes or cut programs.

At one point before the Canadian Federal government starting paying down national debt the service cost of the national debt was 26% of all federal government spending. I could have effectively had a 26% tax cut without affecting government services if some fucktards had not overspent.

I've not seen figures for the US but with a higher debt\GDP ratio I would imagine the percentage is similar or higher.

[Forthe]

I've not seen figures for the US but with a higher debt\GDP ratio I would imagine the percentage is similar or higher.

Not quite that high. For 2002 Net interest was 170 billion out of a 2.01 trillion dollar federal budget, so a bit over 8 percent. Not that I like deficit spending (although I am more concerned overall with the level of spending generally). But I was curious and looked up the numbers so I thought I would pass them along.

Just out of curiosity Chmee. What was the average debt interest rate at the time (roughly 2.7% using 170bn charges and 6.2tn debt)? No big deal if the information wasn't included in the info you found.

At the time of my 26% figure (mid-late 90s) Cdn Fed debt was ~$600bn with an average interest rate of 5-6%. Before we had the extreme low rates of the last few years.

As a side effect of this hopefully people will realize what all the fuss about interest rates in the financial sector is about. Debt in NA really is out of control. Our Fed and provincial\state government debt as well as the debt loads of the private sector are beyond irresponsible. The recent low interest rates have helped spur growth but they have also encouraged rising debt loads. We are becoming extremely susceptable to rising interests rates.

Since the end of 2002 US national debt has increased 16%. Using Chmee's numbers and the low 2.7% interest rate if will cost nearly $200bn this year just to service the debt. An increase in interests rates will cause this number to balloon. At interests rates similar to the Cdn Fed debt I mentioned above it would cost over $400bn to service the debt.

People need to wake up, hold the politicions accountable and stop ignoring the elephant on our backs. It will hurt, it has hurt in Canada - just about every governement program was cut, but every year we reduce the national debt our tax dollars become more valuable. Every year we ignore the problem or add to it our tax dollars become less valuable. I pay taxes for services, not to pay interest.

[Arilain]

Forthe, Canadians are smarter than we are. They would actually cut programs that wasted taxpayer money. Sadly over here cutting programs is a quick way to not get re-elected so the only recourse is to say you are taxing the rich more while raping the middle class out of thier hard earned money. In a recent debate in the House a Representative argued that married couples that made more than 60k a year should be put in the higher tax bracket.

The US gov wastes so much money each year on programs that no one sees. For example statewide bus systems. My state was given a good chunk of cash and I had never heard about it up until I read it.

[Adex_Xeda]

Government waste is written into the system.

The very way that funding is dispersed encourages government agencies to be wasteful. They are punished by removal of yearly funds if they don't spend it all.

This inefficient system is just as big a factor as the difficulty for politicians to cut programs.

[Arilain]

It's a shame that the US gov will encourage citizens to save money yet punishes agencies that save money.

[masteen]

The military is the fucking worst example of that. Pilots in the local training squadron are told to dump their excess fuel before landing after training exercises, just so the unit doesn't get it's fuel budget cut. So not only are they wasting precious petrol derivatives, but they're dumping unburned jet fuel into the Gulf. Two big stars for that plan

[Cartalas]

The military is the fucking worst example of that. Pilots in the local training squadron are told to dump their excess fuel before landing after training exercises, just so the unit doesn't get it's fuel budget cut. So not only are they wasting precious petrol derivatives, but they're dumping unburned jet fuel into the Gulf. Two big stars for that plan

Masteen while I agree that dumping fuel is a waste of money, One of the main reasons for Fuel dumping is not to effect their fuel quotas, the added weight on landing causes wear and tear on the landing gear. I do think they should manage their fuel consupmtion better.

[Forthe]

Forthe, Canadians are smarter than we are. They would actually cut programs that wasted taxpayer money. Sadly over here cutting programs is a quick way to not get re-elected so the only recourse is to say you are taxing the rich more while raping the middle class out of thier hard earned money. In a recent debate in the House a Representative argued that married couples that made more than 60k a year should be put in the higher tax bracket.

The US gov wastes so much money each year on programs that no one sees. For example statewide bus systems. My state was given a good chunk of cash and I had never heard about it up until I read it.

hah you give us too much credit. While I'm a bigtime supporter of our government paying down the debt they still waste money if given half a chance.

[Kylere]

Federal Debt levels since 1940
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-she ... -debt.html

Debt level for 2003 36.1% of the GDP
2004 38.6% of the GDP
2005 39.8% of the GDP
Projected for 2006-2009 40.1 40.2 39.9

Guess what, Dem or Rep, the country is going to be broke. http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/browse.html (select the PDF Summary Tables (124k in size) Oh course, be aware that % of GDP is not equal to government spending

[kyoukan]

hah you give us too much credit. While I'm a bigtime supporter of our government paying down the debt they still waste money if given half a chance.

at least they waste it by stealing it and giving it to themselves.

[Forthe]

hah you give us too much credit. While I'm a bigtime supporter of our government paying down the debt they still waste money if given half a chance.

at least they waste it by stealing it and giving it to themselves.

I'm more pissed off about the gun registry. $1bn for a program everyone ignores and was supposed to cost $2mil.

[Karae]

Democrats spend more than Republicans? I guess that's why the only President to submit a balanced budget in at least the last twenty years was a Democrat (Clinton) and all three Republican Presidents over that period of time (Reagan, Bush I, Bush II) increased the debt more every year of their Presidency than did Clinton.

Data based on this table (excerpt from this White House publication).

[Voronwë]

Republicans being fiscally conservative is propaganda that many people have shockingly still clung to despite the simple truths that Republicans don't even deny.

its like believing in Santa Clause

[Cartalas]

Republicans being fiscally conservative is propaganda that many people have shockingly still clung to despite the simple truths that Republicans don't even deny.

its like believing in Santa Clause

Fuck you there is a Santa Clause

[Kylere]

Republicans being fiscally conservative is propaganda that many people have shockingly still clung to despite the simple truths that Republicans don't even deny.

its like believing in Santa Clause

Or like thinking that Democrats put the interests of the poor first.

[Voronwë]

Republicans being fiscally conservative is propaganda that many people have shockingly still clung to despite the simple truths that Republicans don't even deny.

its like believing in Santa Clause

Or like thinking that Democrats put the interests of the poor first.

not until the poor vote or make campaign contributions then Republicans might even like them

[Arilain]

More Democrats are millionares than Republicans.

[Dregor Thule]

More Democrats are millionares than Republicans.

Not Democrats faults that more Republicans are idiots.

[Truant]

More Democrats are millionares than Republicans.

again, attribute that to the fact that Republicans can't control their spending.

[Arilain]

They all spend money like kids at a toy store with mommy and daddy's credit card unsupervised. Like don't be the pot calling the kettle black here.

[Karae]

Like don't be the pot calling the kettle black here.

Yea, hypocrisy is better left to Republicans.

Sex scandals anyone?

[Arilain]

You want examples of how both parties go nut's spending our money Karae?