Supreme Court so powerful, they can't agree on replacements.

What do you think about the world?
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Supreme Court so powerful, they can't agree on replacements.

Post by Adex_Xeda »

An interesting side effect of a supreme court who has gone too far is each position is now so important to democrats and republicans, they can't seem to get any replacements through the screening process.

http://nationaljournal.com/taylor.htm
July 1, 2008 -- With the retirement of 88-year-old Justice John Paul Stevens today, the Supreme Court's membership dwindled to four. The remaining two liberals (Stephen Breyer and David Souter) and two conservatives (Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas) are almost certain to deadlock on big issues including abortion, affirmative action, gay rights, religion, and presidential war powers. So any tie-breaking replacement for Stevens would be in a position to rewrite vast areas of constitutional law.

This, in turn, almost guarantees that no nominee in the foreseeable future will have much chance of getting past the Senate filibusters that have blocked all eight of the men and women named by the president since the retirements in 2005 of Chief Justice
Some even speak of a slow-motion Supreme Court suicide over the past five or six decades. By steadily aggrandizing their own powers, both liberal and conservative justices have made the Court into a wide-ranging superlegislature, imposing on the nation the personal political preferences of whichever group can get five votes in the guise of construing the Constitution. This in turn has transformed Senate confirmation battles into plebiscites on the nation's most-divisive issues, almost as consequential and bitterly contested as presidential elections.
I still hold that our courts have taken on too much power. The fact that "nominees" are treated with such intense scrutiny is a result of this constitution bending imbalance.
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Post by Forthe »

As it should be. Nominate moderates that everyone can agree on. The failure here lies with administrations trying to taint the judicial branch to serve their own interests.
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Post by Animalor »

Racist warmonger or hippy potsmoker. Who to choose....
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Post by Kelshara »

I say we let the supreme court take over the country and send Bush packing!
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Post by Aslanna »

Forthe wrote:The failure here lies with administrations trying to taint the judicial branch to serve their own interests.
This is the main problem I see as well.
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Post by noel »

Forthe wrote:As it should be. Nominate moderates that everyone can agree on. The failure here lies with administrations trying to taint the judicial branch to serve their own interests.
Very well said.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Anyone ever heard of Chief Justice William Rehnquist???
or Sandra Day O'Connor :?: Anthony Kennedy :?:

The article isn't even worth wasting time on, crystal ball conservatives... heh
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

If you don't like the message, it obviously is a piece of trash article not worthy of others reading.

Disagreeing with an opinion doesn't disqualify its validity.
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Post by Jice Virago »

The Supreme Court is not too powerful. Look at what your fucking president has gotten away with so far, for more perspective. Only people who think the bible should supercede law have this authoritarian fear of the Supreme Court because it is the greatest line of defense of constitutional law and freedom. I know you will never admit it, but the sole reason you think they are too influential is because of the likelyhood of Roe vs Wade and Gay Marriage being decided on by the court, ultimately. I don't mean that as a flame, just an observation.
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Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Actually Jice,

The genesis of law should originate from the legislature.

Anytime a court comes in and creates law via a crazy ruling. I'm upset.

Both conservative and liberal judges are guilty of doing this in the past.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

The article I mention supports just how powerful they've become.
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Post by Bubba Grizz »

Why does it say July 1, 2008? Is this something we need to worry about in the future?
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Post by Jice Virago »

We have had this discussion before.

The Supreme Court does not make laws. It merely evaluates the validity of existing laws under the constitution. I defy you to present an example where the Supreme Court created a law out of thin air.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

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Post by Adex_Xeda »

The courts don't have license to create law out of thin air.

They do however have the power to shape the impact of a law by interpreting it along a political agenda.

When this act is taken to excess, it becomes unconstitutional.
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Post by Voronwë »

If the Supreme Court has so overstepped its Constitutional imprimatur, then i'm sure there are some good examples.

i dont deny justices are very powerful individuals and they should experience a lot of scrutiny before they take a seat on that bench. But compare the scrutiny they receive to a presidential candidate and it is miniscule. Probably less than 5% of the population can name more than half of the current sitting justices.

at any rate the most compelling reason to vote against Bush is because he will likely get to appoint at least one person to sit on that court.

But also the justices don't always "behave" as the politicians who appointed them would like. Reagan appointed Ginsberg, and she has proven to be much more moderate than he would have hoped.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

It says 2008 because this is what the future will bring us, despite the fact that there has never, ever been a vacancy in the supreme court for more then, what, a few weeks and only while the court was not in session. The Supreme Court has more to worry about from Congress then Vice-Versa, it is far from too powerful, it's attempts to limit the legislative and executive branches have been only moderately successful in maintaining some form of checks and balances, right now it is by far the weakest of the 3 branches.

The reason the article is irrelevant is because it's based on zero fact and is speculative fiction at best. I mean come on, it's saying what's going on in 2008, get real and deal with the issues of checks and balances in our government TODAY, and see which branch(es) are overpowered.
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Post by Voronwë »

yeah, has the Supreme Court been able to comment on the Dept of Justice holding US Citizens as "enemy combatants" without giving them access to legal counsel or formal charges?

no.
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Post by Mplor »

I always understood that the three branches of govt were designed to be equal. You know, that whole checks and balances thing.

The court has made some influential decisions which neither other branch had the courage to face. In fact, because of its apolitical nature the Supreme Court is better equipped to make important if unpopular decisions than either the President or Congress. For example, only the court dared to wade into the Civil Rights Movement.

In the end, however, the court's most influential decisions pale in comparison to those routinely made by the executive branch (war, for instance) or legislative branch (power of the purse). If anything, I think the founding fathers would have wanted the court to have even more power than it does now.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

The reason why I'm more accepting of drastic action by my congress or president is because I elect them.

The courts are apointed. With that lack of direct accountablity should come strong restrictions on what they can or can not do.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Adex_Xeda wrote:The reason why I'm more accepting of drastic action by my congress or president is because I elect them.

The courts are apointed. With that lack of direct accountablity should come strong restrictions on what they can or can not do.

WRONG! Please, for the love of whatever God you choose, read about why it was set up that the branch that doesn't have to worry about polls and elections is the same one that interprets the laws. Can you fucking imagine, for a moment, what those fucking elections would look like? Our Founding Fathers actually had a damn good reason for setting it up that way, IT MAKES FUCKING SENSE
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Your presumption that I didn't listen during a high school civics class is incorrect.


Also know that some states elect their judges.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

And that's a fine thing, we are talking about the US Supreme Court, seriously, take a moment and think what those elections would be like, and the fence sitting they'd have to do in order to stay elected. Spend 5 minutes thinking about that then tell me having the Supreme Court as an elected body would be a good thing. And honestly, which branch in your opinion is the weakest, then remember, no branch is supposed to be weaker then another.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

I never suggested we elect Supreme Court Justices.

I do suggest however that they not use their office as a platform to extend their personal and political beliefs.
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Post by Sueven »

Voronwe, I think you mean Sandra Day O'Connor. Clinton appointed Ginsberg (I think). David Souter is another excellent example-- appointed by Bush 1. Liberals are very lucky that they're not outmanned 7-2 on the court.

I'm concerned about the future of the Court. I imagine that Rehnquist will likely resign before the end of Bush's service. That would be fine- he's getting old, and if a conservative is replaced with a conservative, I'm not too bothered. My concern lies in the selection of the next Chief Justice. I'm assuming that Bush will be the one doing the picking (unless I'm horribly mistaken about the appointment process). Clearly, he will pick a conservative. Clarence Thomas is a ninny (VOCABULARY WORD) and Anthony Kennedy isn't assertive enough. That means it has to be either Scalia or O'Connor. O'Connor would be fine, and would be much easier for Bush to get confirmed than Scalia, but there's a possibility that she might retire during Bush's term as well. That would leave Scalia as Chief Justice, and that would really suck. I also hope Stevens holds on until a democratic president is in office. I'm relatively satisfied with the balance of power as it is now.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

O'Connor had implied she would leave this term unless it would mean Roe vs Wade being overturned, note she has stuck in like a champ :)
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Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Adex wrote:I do suggest however that they not use their office as a platform to extend their personal and political beliefs.
Isn't that what they are supposed to do? They are the final interpretation of law, and in a case where the law is unclear aren't they supposed to step in as arbitrators and voices of common sense?

I don't know much about how the Supreme court works, so I'm curious - but I'd expect those appointees to be there because of their personal beliefs, convictions, character, as well as their judicial acumen.
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Post by Etasi »

Adex wrote:I do suggest however that they not use their office as a platform to extend their personal and political beliefs.
This is silly. In cases in which any constitutional interpretation will be ambiguous, the only way to make a decision is to consult with one's personal and political beliefs. There are no objective answers to the questions answered by the Court.

Again you harp on the 'laws' made by the Supreme Court (once again emphasizing your inability to comprehend basic concepts about the construction of our government), but what decisions has the Court made that you find so reprehensible, and yet in your mind could also have been made apolitically? Take for instance Roe v. Wade. Any decision in that case would have been influenced by political beliefs. If the case had gone the other way, by your logic that would also exemplify the justices "using their office as a platform." However, would you be bitching about such an 'offense' if the decision was one you agreed with?

When you lament the political nature of Supreme Court decisions, what you're really lamenting is the politics behind decisions you don't like. It is impossible for the Court's decisions to be removed from politics. However, in spite of the extremely political nature of Supreme Court appointments, the Court's decisions on key issues are far less political than if such decisions were made, for instance, by the legislature. As Mplor very accurately said, the Court is in a far better position to make unpopular decisions than are the other two branches. It seems to me that this is the root of your problem with the Court. You don't like the idea that any branch can make decisions the majority doesn't approve of.

And your suggestion that "strong restrictions" should be placed on the Supreme Court because they have a "lack of direct accountability" is absolutely ludicrous. Do you have even a basic comprehension of why Supreme Court justices are appointed, or of why our government is constructed the way it is? You seem so offended by the insinuation that you didn't pay attention in your high school civics classes, and yet all the available evidence points to that insinuation being correct.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

I argue that the sweeping changes in the exercise of law should be born of the legislative branch.

Take the recent sodomy ruling for example.

The trend was for the states to vote out old sodomy laws. The sodomy law was an expression of a community standard. Those standards changed to the point where the law was considered worthy of removal by most state legislatures.

Yet, the courts stepped in and made a sweeping ruling effectively killing any state sodomy laws.

In this case the process for change was working along the proper legislative method.

The supreme court overstepped it's place by proclaiming a ruling that in effect nullified states' power on the issue.

If you want to change your society, work to vote it out. This is the most representative method for change.

There are other examples in the past that have raised my eyebrow, but this example hits all the sore points.
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:I argue that the sweeping changes in the exercise of law should be born of the legislative branch.

Take the recent sodomy ruling for example.

The trend was for the states to vote out old sodomy laws. The sodomy law was an expression of a community standard. Those standards changed to the point where the law was considered worthy of removal by most state legislatures.

Yet, the courts stepped in and made a sweeping ruling effectively killing any state sodomy laws.

In this case the process for change was working along the proper legislative method.

The supreme court overstepped it's place by proclaiming a ruling that in effect nullified states' power on the issue.

If you want to change your society, work to vote it out. This is the most representative method for change.

There are other examples in the past that have raised my eyebrow, but this example hits all the sore points.
If the process was working then the case in question would not have come before the court...

And what the court ruled is based very soundly in commonlaw and has tremendous precedence...The court did not overturn AntiSodomy laws...It ruled that what goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults is nobody else's fucking business...Do you not understand the precedence there?...

You act as if their decisions were baseless...:) try reading some decisions...
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Post by noel »

The only people that believe the Supreme Court has too much power are the people that don't understand how it operates.
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Post by Kylere »

Geez can someone please make Civics and Government mandatory courses in school again?

The Supreme Court seems to have worked this long, but ever few years when one is due to retire this comes up, I heard people whining about Clintons choices or potential for it, about the last Bush, Reagan, Carter etc. Justices seem to balance things themselves rather well, even switching sides to maintain balance with what society at large feels.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

I read the entire majority opinion Arb.

It was full of straw grasping including the citation of laws from other countries as if they were some basis for American law.

You can spin the ruling in any direction you want, but know that in either case the anti sodomy laws were being dismantled. One method included the voter's sentiments, the other method was born of unelected oligarchy.
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Post by Etasi »

Adex_Xeda wrote:In this case the process for change was working along the proper legislative method.

The supreme court overstepped it's place by proclaiming a ruling that in effect nullified states' power on the issue.

If you want to change your society, work to vote it out. This is the most representative method for change.
If states have unconstitutional laws, they should be removed as soon as possible, not as soon as people feel like voting to do so. The point of the Supreme Court is to ensure that decisions that need to be made are made regardless of the popular opinion of them.

The Supreme Court does in fact have power over state governments, so what exactly is your point in whining about "states' power?" It's one thing if you just don't like that aspect of our government, but it's another thing for you to complain about government functioning as it was intended as though it's some malfunction. In other words, there's a difference, apparently indiscernable to your brain, between the government doing things you don't like and doing things it isn't supposed to.

And do you write your posts one sentence per paragraph in order to make them sound even more like proselytizing than they would if written normally, or is that a totally unintentional side effect?

Argh, it seems you've posted even more idiocy as I was writing this. VOTER SENTIMENT IS IRRELEVANT in determining whether or not something is constitutional. You are aware that the Supreme Court doesn't just make up decisions because it feels like it, aren't you? And are you trying to imply that the anti sodomy case was some sort of Supreme Court liberal conspiracy to do what the country didn't want? Because if that's even close to the case, you're even more ignorant than you've previously let on.
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:I read the entire majority opinion Arb.

It was full of straw grasping including the citation of laws from other countries as if they were some basis for American law.

You can spin the ruling in any direction you want, but know that in either case the anti sodomy laws were being dismantled. One method included the voter's sentiments, the other method was born of unelected oligarchy.
Bullshit...You show extreme ignorance of the origins of our laws...
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Ah name calling. How quaint.
No...a clear statement regarding your knowledge of the laws and precedence...
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Don't like it... move to fucking france :lol:
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Cursory assumptions have little value.

If anything they express frustration at something unworthy of strong emotion.
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Cursory assumptions have little value.

If anything they express frustration at something unworthy of strong emotion.
Heh it's not cursory...you have shown extensive, patent ignorance...
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Fine, don't take my word for it.

Go read the majority opinion yourself.

You'll see that I speak the truth.
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Post by Arborealus »

Justice O’Connor, concurring in the judgment.

The Court today overrules Bowers v. Hardwick, 478 U.S. 186 (1986). I joined Bowers, and do not join the Court in overruling it. Nevertheless, I agree with the Court that Texas’ statute banning same-sex sodomy is unconstitutional. See Tex. Penal Code Ann. §21.06 (2003). Rather than relying on the substantive component of the Fourteenth Amendment’s Due Process Clause, as the Court does, I base my conclusion on the Fourteenth Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause.

The Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment “is essentially a direction that all persons similarly situated should be treated alike.” Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc., 473 U.S. 432, 439 (1985); see also Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202, 216 (1982). Under our rational basis standard of review, “legislation is presumed to be valid and will be sustained if the classification drawn by the statute is rationally related to a legitimate state interest.” Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, supra, at 440; see also Department of Agriculture v. Moreno, 413 U.S. 528, 534 (1973); Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S. 620, 632—633 (1996); Nordlinger v. Hahn, 505 U.S. 1, 11—12 (1992).

Laws such as economic or tax legislation that are scrutinized under rational basis review normally pass constitutional muster, since “the Constitution presumes that even improvident decisions will eventually be rectified by the democratic processes.” Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, supra, at 440; see also Fitzgerald v. Racing Assn. of Central Iowa, ante, p. ___; Williamson v. Lee Optical of Okla., Inc., 348 U.S. 483 (1955). We have consistently held, however, that some objectives, such as “a bare … desire to harm a politically unpopular group,” are not legitimate state interests. Department of Agriculture v. Moreno, supra, at 534. See also Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, supra, at 446—447; Romer v. Evans, supra, at 632. When a law exhibits such a desire to harm a politically unpopular group, we have applied a more searching form of rational basis review to strike down such laws under the Equal Protection Clause.

We have been most likely to apply rational basis review to hold a law unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause where, as here, the challenged legislation inhibits personal relationships. In Department of Agriculture v. Moreno, for example, we held that a law preventing those households containing an individual unrelated to any other member of the household from receiving food stamps violated equal protection because the purpose of the law was to “ ‘discriminate against hippies.’ ” 413 U.S., at 534. The asserted governmental interest in preventing food stamp fraud was not deemed sufficient to satisfy rational basis review. Id., at 535—538. In Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S. 438, 447—455 (1972), we refused to sanction a law that discriminated between married and unmarried persons by prohibiting the distribution of contraceptives to single persons. Likewise, in Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, supra, we held that it was irrational for a State to require a home for the mentally disabled to obtain a special use permit when other residences–like fraternity houses and apartment buildings–did not have to obtain such a permit. And in Romer v. Evans, we disallowed a state statute that “impos[ed] a broad and undifferentiated disability on a single named group”–specifically, homosexuals. 517 U.S., at 632. The dissent apparently agrees that if these cases have stare decisis effect, Texas’ sodomy law would not pass scrutiny under the Equal Protection Clause, regardless of the type of rational basis review that we apply. See post, at 17—18 (opinion of Scalia, J.).

The statute at issue here makes sodomy a crime only if a person “engages in deviate sexual intercourse with another individual of the same sex.” Tex. Penal Code Ann. §21.06(a) (2003). Sodomy between opposite-sex partners, however, is not a crime in Texas. That is, Texas treats the same conduct differently based solely on the participants. Those harmed by this law are people who have a same-sex sexual orientation and thus are more likely to engage in behavior prohibited by §21.06.

The Texas statute makes homosexuals unequal in the eyes of the law by making particular conduct–and only that conduct–subject to criminal sanction. It appears that prosecutions under Texas’ sodomy law are rare. See State v. Morales, 869 S. W. 2d 941, 943 (Tex. 1994) (noting in 1994 that §21.06 “has not been, and in all probability will not be, enforced against private consensual conduct between adults”). This case shows, however, that prosecutions under §21.06 do occur. And while the penalty imposed on petitioners in this case was relatively minor, the consequences of conviction are not. As the Court notes, see ante, at 15, petitioners’ convictions, if upheld, would disqualify them from or restrict their ability to engage in a variety of professions, including medicine, athletic training, and interior design. See, e.g., Tex. Occ. Code Ann. §164.051(a)(2)(B) (2003 Pamphlet) (physician); §451.251 (a)(1) (athletic trainer); §1053.252(2) (interior designer). Indeed, were petitioners to move to one of four States, their convictions would require them to register as sex offenders to local law enforcement. See, e.g., Idaho Code §18—8304 (Cum. Supp. 2002); La. Stat. Ann. §15:542 (West Cum. Supp. 2003); Miss. Code Ann. §45—33—25 (West 2003); S. C. Code Ann. §23—3—430 (West Cum. Supp. 2002); cf. ante, at 15.

And the effect of Texas’ sodomy law is not just limited to the threat of prosecution or consequence of conviction. Texas’ sodomy law brands all homosexuals as criminals, thereby making it more difficult for homosexuals to be treated in the same manner as everyone else. Indeed, Texas itself has previously acknowledged the collateral effects of the law, stipulating in a prior challenge to this action that the law “legally sanctions discrimination against [homosexuals] in a variety of ways unrelated to the criminal law,” including in the areas of “employment, family issues, and housing.” State v. Morales, 826 S. W. 2d 201, 203 (Tex. App. 1992).

Texas attempts to justify its law, and the effects of the law, by arguing that the statute satisfies rational basis review because it furthers the legitimate governmental interest of the promotion of morality. In Bowers, we held that a state law criminalizing sodomy as applied to homosexual couples did not violate substantive due process. We rejected the argument that no rational basis existed to justify the law, pointing to the government’s interest in promoting morality. 478 U.S., at 196. The only question in front of the Court in Bowers was whether the substantive component of the Due Process Clause protected a right to engage in homosexual sodomy. Id., at 188, n. 2. Bowers did not hold that moral disapproval of a group is a rational basis under the Equal Protection Clause to criminalize homosexual sodomy when heterosexual sodomy is not punished.

This case raises a different issue than Bowers: whether, under the Equal Protection Clause, moral disapproval is a legitimate state interest to justify by itself a statute that bans homosexual sodomy, but not heterosexual sodomy. It is not. Moral disapproval of this group, like a bare desire to harm the group, is an interest that is insufficient to satisfy rational basis review under the Equal Protection Clause. See, e.g., Department of Agriculture v. Moreno, supra, at 534; Romer v. Evans, 517 U.S., at 634—635. Indeed, we have never held that moral disapproval, without any other asserted state interest, is a sufficient rationale under the Equal Protection Clause to justify a law that discriminates among groups of persons.

Moral disapproval of a group cannot be a legitimate governmental interest under the Equal Protection Clause because legal classifications must not be “drawn for the purpose of disadvantaging the group burdened by the law.” Id., at 633. Texas’ invocation of moral disapproval as a legitimate state interest proves nothing more than Texas’ desire to criminalize homosexual sodomy. But the Equal Protection Clause prevents a State from creating “a classification of persons undertaken for its own sake.” Id., at 635. And because Texas so rarely enforces its sodomy law as applied to private, consensual acts, the law serves more as a statement of dislike and disapproval against homosexuals than as a tool to stop criminal behavior. The Texas sodomy law “raise the inevitable inference that the disadvantage imposed is born of animosity toward the class of persons affected.” Id., at 634.

Texas argues, however, that the sodomy law does not discriminate against homosexual persons. Instead, the State maintains that the law discriminates only against homosexual conduct. While it is true that the law applies only to conduct, the conduct targeted by this law is conduct that is closely correlated with being homosexual. Under such circumstances, Texas’ sodomy law is targeted at more than conduct. It is instead directed toward gay persons as a class. “After all, there can hardly be more palpable discrimination against a class than making the conduct that defines the class criminal.” Id., at 641 (Scalia, J., dissenting) (internal quotation marks omitted). When a State makes homosexual conduct criminal, and not “deviate sexual intercourse” committed by persons of different sexes, “that declaration in and of itself is an invitation to subject homosexual persons to discrimination both in the public and in the private spheres.” Ante, at 14.

Indeed, Texas law confirms that the sodomy statute is directed toward homosexuals as a class. In Texas, calling a person a homosexual is slander per se because the word “homosexual” “impute the commission of a crime.” Plumley v. Landmark Chevrolet, Inc., 122 F.3d 308, 310 (CA5 1997) (applying Texas law); see also Head v. Newton, 596 S. W. 2d 209, 210 (Tex. App. 1980). The State has admitted that because of the sodomy law, being homosexual carries the presumption of being a criminal. See State v. Morales, 826 S. W. 2d, at 202—203 (“[T]he statute brands lesbians and gay men as criminals and thereby legally sanctions discrimination against them in a variety of ways unrelated to the criminal law”). Texas’ sodomy law therefore results in discrimination against homosexuals as a class in an array of areas outside the criminal law. See ibid. In Romer v. Evans, we refused to sanction a law that singled out homosexuals “for disfavored legal status.” 517 U.S., at 633. The same is true here. The Equal Protection Clause “ ‘neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens.’ ” Id., at 623 (quoting Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537, 559 (1896) (Harlan, J. dissenting)).

A State can of course assign certain consequences to a violation of its criminal law. But the State cannot single out one identifiable class of citizens for punishment that does not apply to everyone else, with moral disapproval as the only asserted state interest for the law. The Texas sodomy statute subjects homosexuals to “a lifelong penalty and stigma. A legislative classification that threatens the creation of an underclass … cannot be reconciled with” the Equal Protection Clause. Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S., at 239 (Powell, J., concurring).

Whether a sodomy law that is neutral both in effect and application, see Yick Wo v. Hopkins, 118 U.S. 356 (1886), would violate the substantive component of the Due Process Clause is an issue that need not be decided today. I am confident, however, that so long as the Equal Protection Clause requires a sodomy law to apply equally to the private consensual conduct of homosexuals and heterosexuals alike, such a law would not long stand in our democratic society. In the words of Justice Jackson:

“The framers of the Constitution knew, and we should not forget today, that there is no more effective practical guaranty against arbitrary and unreasonable government than to require that the principles of law which officials would impose upon a minority be imposed generally. Conversely, nothing opens the door to arbitrary action so effectively as to allow those officials to pick and choose only a few to whom they will apply legislation and thus to escape the political retribution that might be visited upon them if larger numbers were affected.” Railway Express Agency, Inc. v. New York, 336 U.S. 106, 112—113 (1949) (concurring opinion).

That this law as applied to private, consensual conduct is unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause does not mean that other laws distinguishing between heterosexuals and homosexuals would similarly fail under rational basis review. Texas cannot assert any legitimate state interest here, such as national security or preserving the traditional institution of marriage. Unlike the moral disapproval of same-sex relations–the asserted state interest in this case–other reasons exist to promote the institution of marriage beyond mere moral disapproval of an excluded group.

A law branding one class of persons as criminal solely based on the State’s moral disapproval of that class and the conduct associated with that class runs contrary to the values of the Constitution and the Equal Protection Clause, under any standard of review. I therefore concur in the Court’s judgment that Texas’ sodomy law banning “deviate sexual intercourse” between consenting adults of the same sex, but not between consenting adults of different sexes, is unconstitutional.

Feel free to point out what you do not understand...its a pretty cogent opinion and quite easy to read imo...
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

We can cut and paste consenting and disenting opinions all day.

I said that the consenting opinion cited laws outside the US as part of their arguement for their ruling.

You said Bullshit I didn't read it.

Well here it is:
§1. Of even more importance, almost five years before Bow-ers was decided the European Court of Human Rights considered a case with parallels to Bowers and to today’s case. An adult male resident in Northern Ireland alleged he was a practicing homosexual who desired to engage in consensual homosexual conduct. The laws of Northern Ireland forbade him that right. He alleged that he had been questioned, his home had been searched, and he feared criminal prosecution. The court held that the laws proscribing the conduct were invalid under the European Convention on Human Rights. Dudgeon v. United King-dom, 45 Eur. Ct. H. R. (1981) ¶

We talked this issue into the ground in a previous thread, if you wish to pursue this particular topic I'd go there.



THIS thread dealt with the following arguement.

The Supreme Court has become so powerful that tradionally rubber stamped appointies to the court are now blocked by vicious infighting between Republicans and Democrats. The intensity of this fight goes to support my arguement that the Supreme Court has wiggled too much power for themselves.
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:We can cut and paste consenting and disenting opinions all day.

I said that the consenting opinion cited laws outside the US as part of their arguement for their ruling.

You said Bullshit I didn't read it.

Well here it is:
§1. Of even more importance, almost five years before Bow-ers was decided the European Court of Human Rights considered a case with parallels to Bowers and to today’s case. An adult male resident in Northern Ireland alleged he was a practicing homosexual who desired to engage in consensual homosexual conduct. The laws of Northern Ireland forbade him that right. He alleged that he had been questioned, his home had been searched, and he feared criminal prosecution. The court held that the laws proscribing the conduct were invalid under the European Convention on Human Rights. Dudgeon v. United King-dom, 45 Eur. Ct. H. R. (1981) ¶

We talked this issue into the ground in a previous thread, if you wish to pursue this particular topic I'd go there.



THIS thread dealt with the following arguement.

The Supreme Court has become so powerful that tradionally rubber stamped appointies to the court are now blocked by vicious infighting between Republicans and Democrats. The intensity of this fight goes to support my arguement that the Supreme Court has wiggled too much power for themselves.
Ok...that is directly applicable precedent...Its another legal opinion on the exact issue...why is that not germain?...
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

This tangent is off topic.

Our court is supposted to use *our* laws not the European Court of Human Rights to form a ruling.


It goes to show how just how much (questionably unconstitutional) wiggle room our Justices have nowadays when making rulings.
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:This tangent is off topic.

Our court is supposted to use *our* laws not the European Court of Human Rights to form a ruling.


It goes to show how just how much (questionably unconstitutional) wiggle room our Justices have nowadays when making rulings.
Well your are the one who held this up as case in point not I...

And looking at how other folks have solved problems is hardly unreasonable...You should know that as an engineer...You don't reinvent the wheel everytime you design a car...In fact most of our laws evolved in Europe...None of them are original to nor unique to us...
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

If the SC is able to go comfortably outside their mandate in this area, then it goes to support that they have the attitude to trespass the legislative realm.
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Post by Arborealus »

Adex_Xeda wrote:If the SC is able to go comfortably outside their mandate in this area, then it goes to support that they have the attitude to trespass the legislative realm.
Determining the constitutionality of laws is their explicit mandate
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

At least we agree on that.
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Post by Jice Virago »

So basically, Adex's entire paranoia of the Supreme Court's power stems from them shooting down the Texas Sodomy laws? Adex, you are going to have to let your homophobia go.
War is an option whose time has passed. Peace is the only option for the future. At present we occupy a treacherous no-man's-land between peace and war, a time of growing fear that our military might has expanded beyond our capacity to control it and our political differences widened beyond our ability to bridge them. . . .

Short of changing human nature, therefore, the only way to achieve a practical, livable peace in a world of competing nations is to take the profit out of war.
--RICHARD M. NIXON, "REAL PEACE" (1983)

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, represents, in the final analysis, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children."

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Post by Adex_Xeda »

No Jice, you need to read the thread man.

Someone asked for an example of the SC going too far.

I provided one that came to mind.
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