Stella Awards

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 2, 2002, 3:31 pm

They chose to do it even though it was more dangerous in order to make the quality of the product better, and had faith that their customers would not be total fucking retards that ignore warning labels.

They were wrong about the retards.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 2, 2002, 4:00 pm

Xyun wrote:They chose to do it even though it was more dangerous in order to make the quality of the product better, and had faith that their customers would not be total fucking retards that ignore warning labels.

They were wrong about the retards.

quality and product do not belong in the same sentence when referring to McDonald's coffee!!

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 2, 2002, 4:06 pm

I don't drink coffee. But I do LOVE McD's. There's nothing like getting 3 burgers, 6 piece nuggets, and a 42 oz. coke for under 5 bucks. The shit tastes damn good too.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » August 2, 2002, 4:15 pm

A healthy lifestyle is more difficult and expensive to maintain than devouring junk food all day long, and these corporations go to inordinate lengths to insure that this status quo is maintained.

Yeesh, add up what junk food costs these days.

It's much cheaper to be healthy. Unfortunately, it just doesn't taste as good.

A little more personal restraint would make such a difference in so many problem areas......

As for the coffee lawsuit? Stupid. Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid stupid, stupid, stupid stupid, stupid, stupid stupid, stupid, stupid stupid, stupid, stupid.

The cofee being at 190 degrees meant a burn five seconds faster than at 150 degrees. Explain to me how you get half a cup of coffee out of your clothing and away from your skin in five seconds? Especially at the age of 81.

Holding a cup of hot liquid between your knees is moronic. The idea of then removing the lid and not expecting a spill is almost laughable. Akin to swinging that Stanley Fairwether brought up with your eyes closed and being surprised when you get hurt.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 2, 2002, 4:55 pm

Xyun wrote:They chose to do it even though it was more dangerous in order to make the quality of the product better, and had faith that their customers would not be total fucking retards that ignore warning labels.

They were wrong about the retards.

You've never accidentally spilled something on yourself? You've never had someone accidentally spill something on you? Do you live in one of those bubbles?

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 2, 2002, 7:12 pm

masteen wrote: Is there a book respository is your future, Truant?

Come again?

P.S. 6 hours until I destroy the universe

Searyx · Post by **Searyx** » August 2, 2002, 9:00 pm

The cofee being at 190 degrees meant a burn five seconds faster than at 150 degrees. Explain to me how you get half a cup of coffee out of your clothing and away from your skin in five seconds? Especially at the age of 81.

How long does it take you to take off your pants from a sitting position in an emergency? Does "More than three seconds, but less than fifteen" sound about right?

It doesn't matter if she was 81 or 21. With only three seconds to react, including at least one full second of realization (Doh! I spilled coffee on myself. Oh shit, this burns! Take your pants off quick!!), she didn't stand a chance.

Regardless of what McDonalds has said, they did NOT make their coffee at 190 degrees to preserve the taste. They did it to save a few bucks on coffee beans, since you can make more coffee per bean at higher temperatures.

I knew before the lawsuit that McDonalds coffee was hotter than most places. I did NOT know how badly I would be hurt if I had ever spilled it on me at the temperature it's served at.

A simple warning mentioning how dangerous it would be to spill it on you would suffice. I'll use exaggeration to prove my point: Which would you handle more carefully? A cup of milk, or a nuclear missle? People have to KNOW the danger.

Everyone knows that hot things hurt. They do not know how badly different temperatures will hurt them if you don't tell them.

McDonalds was negligent. The woman got more money than she wanted to get the point across the McDonalds corporation. They got the picture and lowered the temperature. Everyone wins, except the dumb motherfuckers who like burnt-to-a-crisp coffee.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 3, 2002, 3:49 am

You've never accidentally spilled something on yourself? You've never had someone accidentally spill something on you?

Kyou what is the point of this statement? When I was 10 years old my brother accidentally spilled a pot of boiling water on my arm. I had 3rd degree burns all over my arm and I still have the scars. So my answer to your question is yes.

Accidents happen. They are a part of life. The difference is that in this case, someone had an accident and they did not want to be held accountable for their own fucking accident. They wanted to hold someone else accountable for their accident. Why is that so hard to comprehend? No matter what you say, the fact is that this moron spilled hot coffee on herself.

Arguing over the temperature of the coffee is pointless. Freshly served coffee is hot. If you spill it on yourself you will get burned. That is pure simple logic.

In this statement, Searyx proves my point:

Everyone knows that hot things hurt. They do not know how badly different temperatures will hurt them if you don't tell them.

If the first sentence here is true, WTF relevance does the second sentence have??? Kids understand the first sentence. Hell my fucking cat understands the first sentence. The second sentence is NOT FUCKING NEEDED. It only exists to hold an external force responsible for something that everyone should know inherently.

The point is that in this society, over and over, people no longer accept responsibility for their actions. This case is an example. The case where the mother drowned her 2 children and pleaded insanity (she had a voodoo hex put on her) and got sent to a psychiatric ward instead of a fucking prison is another example.

It wasn't me, it was the corporation. It wasn't me, it was the voodoo hex. It wasn't me, it was the way my parents raised me. It wasn't me, it was the nazis, or satan, or the government, or my alternate personality, or aliens, or my teachers, or my delusions, or my past, or the way the stars were aligned, or whatever fucking excuse you can come up with to get out of being held accountable.

DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND??

If you don't, then you are one that does not want to be held accountable for your own actions.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 3, 2002, 5:47 am

Xyun wrote: Kyou what is the point of this statement?

Umm, besides it being the very crux of my argument for the last 2 pages I couldn't tell you what the point is beyond that. Everyone spills crap on themselves. Lots of people spill hot coffee on themselves. I myself spilled fresh out of the pot starbucks hot coffee on my bare arm, wrist and hand. I burned myself. A few days later I got over it.

The issue that I've been trying drill into your thick mother fucking skulls is that when you do spill a beverage on yourself, that it should NOT BE SO FUCKING HOT THAT IT SCARS YOU FOR LIFE THROUGH YOUR CLOTHING AND REQUIRES YOU TO GET MAJOR SKIN GRAFT SURGERY. Is that so much to ask? Obviously a beverage that is so hot that it scars and blisters your skin on contact is too hot to consume. It is not a far gone conclusion for Mcdonalds to make that selling several million dollar's worth of coffee per work week eventually someone is going to spill it on themselves, and thus they should think about not serving it temeratures that WILL FUCKING SCAR YOU FOR LIFE if that happens.

But hey whatever. I am done with this thread. I'm sure other women are utterly turned on your cool "lol darwin i never spill anything on myself and if i did its my fault and i'll pay the consequences but it will never happen lol natural selection darwin lol" attitude. Although frankly such a disregard for public safety just because you personally think you are above that sort of thing ever happening to you makes me want to fucking puke.

Searyx · Post by **Searyx** » August 3, 2002, 5:53 am

It only exists to hold an external force responsible for something that everyone should know inherently

Did YOU know that 3 seconds of contact with McDonalds coffee would cause 3rd degree burns? I know I didn't. I would have been much more careful in the handling of the coffee if I had known in the past how dangerous it was.

There are many temperatures of hot, you know! There is "ouch that hurts" hot, and there is "liquify your skeleton" hot. At SOME POINT, you have to let the buyer know what the risks are.

What if it wasn't 190 degrees? What if it was pressure sealed at... 600 degrees? Would you care if they didn't warn you that the contents were under pressure? Of COURSE everyone knows what happens if you open something under pressure! EVERYONE knows what would happen if you spilled a 600 degree substance on your skin! Common knowledge, right?

SHE WAS NOT FUCKING TOLD HOW HOT THE FUCKING COFFEE WAS! SHE WAS NOT TOLD THAT THE COFFEE WAS HOT ENOUGH TO FRY 7% OF HER FUCKING BODY IN THREE FUCKING SECONDS!

It's the woman's fault for spilling it. It's McDonalds fault for not giving a proper warning.

And the record just keeps on skipping, doesn't it?

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 3, 2002, 6:52 am

Let me point out why you are wrong.

In your mind, this case is about the society. You think that the outcome is legitimate because it protects the people within the society from a frivolous danger.

I agree that laws are set in place for this very reason, to protect the people that exist within the society from eachother. For example, driving laws exist to lessen the danger on the road.

What you fail to understand is that it is wrong to place laws in a society to protect people from THEMSELVES. If a person chooses to jump out of a plane, they accept the responsibility and harm that they may cause to themselves. Jumping out of a plane (parachuting) is not illlegal. When a person gets into a car and doesn't wear a seatbelt, they have to deal with the outcome of their decision. However, to put a law in society that says YOU MUST WEAR YOUR SEATBELT is wrong. Why? Because it takes the responsibility out of the hands of the individual. It tells the individual you are not aware enough of the danger that you are causing yourself, and this law is here to protect you from yourself.

While you believe that somehow this case helps society by protecting the people from the hot coffee, I believe that this case hurts society because it tells people you are too fucking dumb to understand that hot coffee will burn your ass.

It also hurts society b/c those of us who want our coffee at 180 degrees can no longer get it because we live in a society where there are too many fucking dumb people, that cannot handle a cup of coffee.

Where is the line drawn? When does individual responsibility come into play?

We know the dangers of alcohol. Should it be banned? We know the dangers of smoking. Should we make tobacco illegal? We know the dangers of greasy food. Should we do away with fast food restaurants cuz there are too many fat fucks in the country? We know the dangers of guns, yet every hillbilly and their dog has one.

There are laws that protect people from eachother and laws that protect people from themselves. In your mind, this case represents the former and in my mind, it represents the latter.

She didn't have to buy that fucking coffee, did she? It was a personal choice that affected her and NO ONE ELSE. The only person she put in danger was herself.

Fuck it, lets make fatty foods illegal. Lets ban parachuting or cliff diving or surfing or every fucking contact sport that individuals CHOOSE to do. Let's get rid of rollercoasters cuz we've seen the deaths they have caused. I've seen people break their legs playing football, shit that should be illegal. Let's take out all of the dangers so that everyone will feel like they have no personal responsibility if something does go wrong with the choices that they make that only affect THEMSELVES.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 3, 2002, 6:59 am

Also note Kyoukan that Searyx agrees with you on this issue. This alone should be enough to make you change your mind.

What if it wasn't 190 degrees? What if it was pressure sealed at... 600 degrees?

This statement speaks for itself. Searyx your retardedness never ceases to amaze me. I'm dealing with reality here, not science fiction dipshit.

This case is completely wrong for 2 reasons:

1) When you start regulating how hot the coffee i drink is, how much fatty foods I eat, how many cigarettes (if any) I smoke in my own house, how much I drink when I put no one else in harm's way, you are crossing the line. When you start regulating my personal decisions about my life you are infringing on my freedom!

2) This case and others like this show a trend in society that is blatantly obvious. The criminals, miscreants, and people who do not know HOW to live, who do not enjoy their OWN life, are uniting and blaming society for all of their problems. They are taking all of society down to their level. I for one do not pity these people.

BTW, if any hot chicks are impressed by how truly brilliant I am feel free to send me a PM.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » August 3, 2002, 7:49 am

Yeesh, add up what junk food costs these days.

It's much cheaper to be healthy. Unfortunately, it just doesn't taste as good

My usual lunch is a non-iceburg lettuce salad with feta+veggies and such on it. Or a plate of Thai or Chinese noodles w/veggies and dead animal parts of some sort. Both are way cheaper than McGuanos or Chik Filet.

Food from the chains just really makes me sick, it tastes like shit and I can't stand the grease. I don't like the thought of paying almost $2 for 3 cents worth of Coke, cup and (mainly) ice either.

Most things we cook at the house are reasonably good for you, and the shock of that nastiness hitting my system is too much

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 3, 2002, 3:27 pm

Xyun, let's try looking at it a different way.

We're going to go slightly Hypothetical, so don't trip out.

We're going to "No Spill Land"

Let's say above said old lady didn't spill the coffee on herself. Let's say, upon receipt of said coffee. She takes a drink. It destroys her tongue.

The lady had NO indication that the coffee served to her was THAT hot.

Not all coffee is that hot.

Deductive reasoning would say that the coffee is safe to consume. Like other coffee created on this planet.

Do you still say she should take responsibility for her actions now? Is it the consumers' purpose in life to carry a thermometer to test temperatures of coffee upon purchasing?

Ok, bear with me now, we're going to enter "obvious land"

Their argument has NOTHING TO DO with spilling coffee.

IT HAS TO DO WITH SERVING COFFEE THAT IS SO HOT IT IS A DANGER.

You say you want your coffee that hot. Good for you, I personally don't want to wait 20 minutes after pouring a cup before I can drink it.

And using, "agreeing with Searyx" as a counterargument is pretty lame. At least he can understand an argument.

Now...You say laws that regulate how we live are wrong. If a restaurant serves it's burgers laced with arsenic, that's ok right? I mean we shouldn't regulate them. If someone eats it, it's their own fault, and they should take responsibility for their actions right? I guess the same could be said for radioactively contaminated produce used in salads?

I have taken your argument to the extreme to make a point. SOME regulation has to be made. Finding the line of where to stop regulating is hard. It's an extremely thin gray line in all honesty. And if you polled every human in existence where they thought the line was, you wouldn't get the same answer twice.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 3, 2002, 4:28 pm

I have taken your argument to the extreme to make a point. SOME regulation has to be made. Finding the line of where to stop regulating is hard. It's an extremely thin gray line in all honesty. And if you polled every human in existence where they thought the line was, you wouldn't get the same answer twice.

I completely agree with this statement. It is a very gray area. But, when you consider all of the factors here, and the reality of this case, not hypothetically, you have to wonder whether or not this is crossing that line.

The point I'm trying to make is that this sort of shit is happening more and more in our society today. Do you see the trends? The number of frivolous law suits are growing exponentially precisely because of cases such as this one. Maybe we saved 10 or 20 or 1000 retards from smoldering their genitals. But at what cost? Now we got fatasses suing corps b/c they are fat. We got people getting away with murder all the time.

It is not so much the public safety that I have issue with. I will even concede that yes, this is the good that came out of this case, however minimal it may be. Keep in mind that over a 10 year period less than 1/1000th of 1% of all the people who consumed McD's coffee complained of burning, and even less than that had 3rd degree burns. Do we need to regulate something that affects 1 out of a million people? Especially since had these people taken some caution about their actions, this would not even be an issue.

Now comparing this positive effect of this case to all of the negative effects it has on society, I just cannot see where it is justified.

Now...You say laws that regulate how we live are wrong.

This is false. I never said that laws that regulate are wrong. I said laws that "protect" me from myself are wrong. They inhibit my rights as an individual to make decisions about my life.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 3, 2002, 4:59 pm

Congratulations on missing the entire fucking point... again. You can almost understand what you read! I am vary impressed about how smart you are! Wanna fuck?

Searyx · Post by **Searyx** » August 3, 2002, 5:25 pm

Ok. No record skipping. Here is the point which even Xaen cannot deny:

In my opinion, McDonalds did NOT need to reduce the temperature of their coffee. All they NEEDED to do (not wanted, NEEDED) was to display a proper warning regarding the coffee's temperature. Apparently, the McDonalds bean counters concluded that it would be more cost effective to lower the temperature.

I have no problem with restaurant chains servering arsenic in their food to adults. As long as they make it very clear that what you're about to eat IS GOING TO KILL YOU. Nope! No joke here. You will be dead soon if you eat that fuckin' burger!

The news informs us of all the frivilious cases that get taken to trial. What they DON'T tell you is that nearly all of those cases are thrown out of court, or side with the defendant.

However, this does not mean that common sense needs to be regulated. A bottle filled with blue liquid that smells like amonia does not need a warning saying "Do not drink", or a brick wall that says, "Do not run your car into this at high speeds".

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 3, 2002, 11:13 pm

I am done with this thread.

Ahmik · Post by **Ahmik** » August 4, 2002, 1:40 am

ya know...

I have been gone a few days so I was quite surprised to see you folks beating this dead horse mercilessly...

I read over the McDonalds shit again and then I started to laugh and I emailed the link to this board to my dad and had him read it... his first comment was to repeat an old and often-heard phrase... "Boy, look out! That shit came from McDonalds". This illustrated to me that it was COMMON KNOWLEDGE that McDonalds coffee was fuckin hot... Obviously this 80+ year old lady that got burned had NEVER EVER had coffee from McDonalds before in her entire life. After my dad got finished reading, he started off on one of his long-winded monologs and it went something like this...

My dad got his very first job in a small cafe on Van Nuys Blvd in 1931. Yes, 1931. His first job was to grind coffee beans every morning and BOIL the coffee. He further explained that a 4 gallon pot of coffee never lasted long enough to turn to thick nasty tar. If a customer was impatient and didn't want to wait, he simply used a soup ladel and scooped out some coffee into a cup and handed it over.

According to this 83 year old man that I call my father, this is the way that it was done all the way up until the mid 60's. Coffee was kept at "near boiling" and served at this temperature. Back in the old days a person waited a significant amount of time before coffee was cool enough to be consumed. Today you can go into most places and the coffee is served at a low enough temperature that you can almost immediately start driniking it.

In the old days, coffee was prepared and served at "below normal" temperatures for the "go cups" only and then for the "in store" coffee drinkers if was kept near boiling. This was due to the fact that they had no styrofoam cups to insulate the consumer from the contents. Paper cups were coated with wax on the outside to keep them waterproof, but they offered little in the way of insulating heat.

McDonalds served coffee at about 190 degrees... This temperature USED to be the rule rather than the exception. With introduction of nice thick styrofoam insulated cups to hold the heat in (and protect the consumers hand) there was no longer a need to serve "warm" coffee anymore. McDonalds cranked up the heat to where it HAD ALWAYS BEEN in the past.

Anyone ever go to a gas station or cafe in the morning on the way to work and fill a thermos with coffee and by the time the 9:00 a.m. coffee break rolls around the damn coffee is on the razors edge of being too cold? It's that fuckin 140 degree coffee... If it was 190 to begin with, it would still have been piping hot at break time /grin McDonalds filled a fuckin shit load of my thermos bottles - I can promise you that...

First I blame the "consumer-at-large" for being in such a damn hurry and wanting immediate gratification with their "I-want-it-NOW" mentality for the trend in serving coffee at 140 degrees. McDonalds is not at fault. McDonalds was simply adhering to a tradition that goes back several centuries.

Second I blame our fucked up society that will sue anyone for any reason. This constant threat of a law suit from anyone at anytime has caused retailers, merchants, manufacturers, food service businesses and pretty much everyone else to raise prices to cover increasing insurance costs and the insanely high cost of legal defense.

Who the fuck do you think pays for all of that? Huh? You do. You can bet your ass that the cost of litigation is passed on to the consumer through increased prices, each and every time.

Blah... I'm rambling again...

Oh well... another long winded meaningless spew (I learned it from Dad) /sigh

*** No proofreading or previewing. I'm tired and don't give a fuck about spelling, punctuation, or incomplete sentences. ***

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » August 4, 2002, 2:06 am

I recently read about a guy getting sued by a robbers family. The reason he was beeing suied was because he shot and mortaly wounded the robber even though it was in self deffense he was still suied. He was suied by the family for loss of income and the kicker was they won.

Storys like this happen more and more offen and its really a sad thing. When we live in a world were someone can sue someone else for loss of income because they can't rob anymore is bullshit, but yet it still happens. It has become easier for people to get away with beeing lazy. It has become easier for people to not take responsabilty for there actions when things don't go like they want them.

Regaurdless of which side was in the wrong and in the right in the McD case its things like that, that stupid people see and take to the extream like in the above story. If half those people win cases like that it only makes it easier and easier for shit like that to happen. Common sense is a rare commodity these days and it truely is a sad sad thing.

zotha · Post by **zotha** » August 4, 2002, 4:18 am

However, to put a law in society that says YOU MUST WEAR YOUR SEATBELT is wrong.

Well actually in Australia it is illegal for anyone to be in a moving vehicle and not wear a seat belt unless that vehicle doesnt have them (ie a school bus). The person driving is held responsible for anyone not wearing a seatbelt and is fined (I dont think they get any demerit points though) if caught. There are infact many laws which protect people from themselves, and mandatory warning labels on hazards is a prime example. Im not going to get into whether "Contents may be hot" is a strong enough warning or not, im just pointing out that your statement about laws not existing to protect people from themselves is wrong.

? We know the dangers of guns, yet every hillbilly and their dog has one.

Which is a bad thing.

Ninan · Post by **Ninan** » August 4, 2002, 10:30 am

Most of you are too young to remember back in 1974 they downgraded the speed limits to 55 mph from 70 mph on expressways nationwide. Why? Two reasons. 1- Too many fatalities so yes it is the governments intentions to protect inicent victims of people speeding and having a wreck causing fatalities. 2- President Carter's regime came up with this bogus energy crisis regarding our oil reserves being depleted so he could pass his energy regulatory package which if passed gave him powers beyond belief. Less gas consumed at 55 then 70 so the speed limit law passed, but his energy package failed. I remember for I had had my liscense a year then had to slow down to a turtles crawl thanks to many idiots on the roadway. That law was repealed several years ago and the speed limits raised, but they put in place seatbelt laws again nationwide to lessen the fatality rates.

These laws aren't put in place to protect people from themselves, but in fact put in place to protect possible future inicent victims from the morons who drive day in and day out not observing the laws. All of you missed this line of reasoning. They "the government" don't pass laws to protect you from you, they pass laws to protect potential inicent victims from you.

Now as far as this mickey D's lawsuit on the coffee issue, anytimne you deal with the public and knowingly sell something that has an inherent danger associated with that sale, you open yourself up to a lawsuit. The suit was about knowingly and willingly selling coffee that would cause irreputable damage if skin contact occurred during consumption and continuing to sell coffee to the public that would be considered hazardous and no warnings anywhere to that fact. The woman admits that yes the spill was her fault, but because it is considered consumable and sold openly across the counter it should not cause permanent damage if spilled on a person. McDonalds should have paid the medical bills and done the right thing.

One last comment here, to the person saying eating healthy is OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS cheaper then buying fast foods I say you obviously haven't been to an all natural and holistic grocery market for that statement is utterly false. All natural foods are OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more expensive then normal grocery store items for they do not have the shelf life of the normal foods, therefore more waste and spoilage = OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS higher prices. Eating totally healthy is good for all of us, but the prices are ridiculously high so I hope you have a ton of cash if you plan to eat totally healthy.

Biffin · Post by **Biffin** » August 4, 2002, 10:46 am

Here where Biffin lives, it's actually illegal to not wear a seatbelt as well.. as far as Biffin knows anyway.

Also here in Biffin's city(Halifax) it's a city law that wearing perfumes/colonges is illegal... about half the people still do though ;p The law isn't enforced as far as Biffin knows though... but imagine if it was!

Just picture the scene though.. a city jail. Biffin is arrested for wearing colonge. He gets thrown into the jail with the other people. Another prisoner walks up to him and asks him "what are you in for?" Biffin then responds with "umm I er... wore some colgone on a date" The prisoner then responds with "I murdered eight people last night....."

Off topic yeah but still a bizzare law ;p

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 4, 2002, 12:33 pm

Xyun wrote:Do you see the trends? The number of frivolous law suits are growing exponentially precisely because of cases such as this one.

I see the trends. And I disagree. The number of frivolous lawsuits is growing (in my opinion) due to two things. One, the fact that our country won't legislate against frivolous lawsuits. Two, retarded coverage by our rediculous media that exists in this happy land. (there are a VERY few exceptions to the media argument, and 99% of them aren't mainstream).

This is, however, not the point of the topic.

Drolgin Steingrinder · August 4, 2002, 12:55 pm

This boggles me.

I've only scanned most of the posts here, since they make my brain^H^Hne hurt.

I worked as a barrista in a coffeeshop for 4 months, and you know what we use to make coffee? BOILING WATER! And you know what more? BOILING WATER IS HOT!

VeeshanVault

Stella Awards

Some facts...