Something Different

Krewlade · Post by **Krewlade** » January 4, 2003, 11:04 pm

I used to smoke OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of weed and drop OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of acid and do various other things as they came around E coke whatnot anyway this went on for 4 years. no working just drugs and partying. I was of the mindset that drugs could enhance your mind that there was somthing mystical and magic about it a spiritual experience if you will. Its all BS drugs are mind altering substances. diff effects diff feelings same outcome you get fucked up in 1 way or another. the only thing i ever even think of doing is acid i fuckin love it anyway. its fun and its nice to believe drugs are mystical and magic but the truth is they arent. I would spend all talking to people about how diff drugs could enhance your mind believe me. One day it will click in your mind there really isnt anything mystical and magic about it.

BTW "Always expect the worst if you get anything better be happy". its what ive lived by for years saves you OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of pain and disappointment because reguardless of who you are when you put your faith in people eventually someone is going to let you down, or somthing is going to go wrong. how far you fall depends how high up the hope ladder you climbed.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 5, 2003, 6:39 am

Xyun wrote:
Drugs are actually good and expand your mind if you have the discipline for moderation.

Problems with this:
1. Its a generalization which is poor logic. How is coke "good?" How does it expand your mind?
2. "good" is such a bland unspecific descriptor that means essentially nothing.

1. According to you, all generalizations use poor logic? Hmm... Isn't that statement itself a fucking generalization??? OMFG a bafoon posted a self-contradictory statement to flame me!! Don't worry, you're not the first, and you won't be the last.

Example of a generalization using "good" logic: All living humans breathe air.
Example of a generalization using "poor" logic: All generalizations use poor logic.

The first one is sound, the second one which is your own statement is not sound. The very fact that you posted this ignorant shit shows me how little you know of logic or the logical process.

But let's continue anyway. I'll come back to #1 after I deal with #2.

I love #2! You claim that the word "good" essentially has no meaning?? Aren't you the one constantly running to your dictionary to support your arguments? You couldn't look "good" up?

I'll do it for you. Hmm.. there are 20 definitions there all saying basically the same fucking thing, I'll just post the first 2.

Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor: a good experience; good news from the hospital.

Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing: a good exterior paint; a good joke.
Serving the desired purpose or end; suitable.

From now on, maybe instead of typing the word good I'll just type the entire definition everytime so your crippled dictionary-dependant little mind can understand it. Nah.

Ok back to #1.

How is coke good? Hmm well. It fits the definition perfectly. Desirable in nature, having qualities that are desirable. Cocaine has many positive characteristics and I could spend time naming them all but I won't.

How does it expand your mind? Well, first you need to understand the term "expand your mind". I'm sure it is very foreign to you. Anytime you gain knowledge from an experience you have in essence expanded your mind. You have learned. Drugs in general and coke specifically expand your mind because they make you aware of a state of mind that you were never aware of before. But you already knew that since you've done all these drugs.

3. You sound like a moron...."Drugs are good...heh" And you wonder why people think drug users are idiots....

#3. I never wonder why drug users get a bad image. Most of them are fucking idiots. But then most of the people in the world (99% as I have stated before) including yourself are fucking idiots regardless of whether or not they do drugs. Is #3 vital to the logical progression of your argument and that's why it's got a number next to it? "You sound like a moron so drugs are bad!"

hahahhahahahahahaha.

4. Moderation with SOME drugs is an issue but MANY drugs are harmful whether you take them once or once a day.

#4. all drugs are harmful in some sort of way you fool, just like all drugs are good in some sort of way. Good and harmful are qualitative statements and you bash me for using one and use the other to support your claims? Are you THAT FUCKING STUPID??

I think you need a diagram.

HARMFUL <----------------------------------------------------> GOOD

You can put drugs anywhere you like along the continuum, but it will still not support or deny the moderation/addiction argument. This argument is:

Anything done in excess to the point of addiction, whether it be good (food) or bad (drugs/EQ) is detrimental to the well being (physical or mental health) of a person.

Quote:
Now this is the part I love. ALL YOU MOTHERFUCKERS ARE OR HAVE BEEN ADDICTED TO EQ!

Now this is the part I love. You get all defensive and start swinging. No one pointed fingers at you being *gasp* "addicted" and yet you feel the need to come back with a "Oh yeah?? Well, you are all addicted to EQ!!" The discussion was simply about drug use period. Paranoia setting in? I hear, that smoking too much weed makes you such.

You think I'm paranoid? You think that I'm in denial of being an addict? You don't know shit. The argument of drugs being harmful was starting to sprout before my post. In fact, your own post was the EXACT FUCKING REASON I POSTED. I saw your stupidity beforehand and countered it. The reason I made that statement, which seems to have completely escaped you, is to show that drugs aren't harmful, it is addictions that are harmful.

People (you) who are addicted to EQ and not addicted to drugs and come here and claim drugs are harmful are ignorant fucking hypocrits. You can't understand your own fucking addiction and you claim to understand mine? I didn't start swinging, I started aiming dipshit, and it was you I was aiming at.

Hayley · Post by **Hayley** » January 5, 2003, 7:16 am

Xyun wrote: #4. all drugs are harmful in some sort of way

followed by:

Xyun wrote: drugs aren't harmful, it is addictions that are harmful

Seriously though, all your counterarguments really don't have a solid backing at all. You say that addictions are the root of all evil and that drugs have no bearing on how it affects our health. The tobacco in cigarette smoke has nicotine... a drug which has proven to cause addiction. Cocaine falls along these same lines as do many of the other drugs that people fall victim to because of the addictive ingredients in the drug.

IMO, I don't think that when someone has a bad trip on whatever drug they are taking, expands their mind to think that they can fly and jumps off a 5 story building that that is necessarily good for them. But *shrug* to each their own.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 5, 2003, 7:50 am

Congratz on a nice catch! Nice how you quote me out of context there.

All drugs are harmful in some sort of way just like all drugs are good in some sort of way are qualitative statements. I didn't fucking mean to say drugs are harmful, I was pointing out that it was a qualitative statement.

And I'm sure Hayley, that you think there are no addictive components to EQ? Nicotine causes addiction? That's news to me. I always thought that lack of will power caused addiction and that addiction could be overcome.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 5, 2003, 9:47 am

Nicotine is milligram for milligram the most addictive substance on the face of the earth. In fact the exact moment you stop supplying your brain with a source of nicotine it automatically starts craving it. There is no cool down period and the withdrawl symptoms tend to last much longer than other "more addictive" substances like heroin and opiates.

In fact studies have shown that nicotine is so addictive that your brain will manifest a chemical addiction into a peculiar psychological addiction in order to obtain what it craves; and unlike other addictive substances, the craving will never go away. This type of "something missing in my life" addiction is only found in ex-smokers, and even after decades they will crave a smoke.

I would happily kill you all in a mindless orgy of death and human sacrifice just for one lousy fucking drag off a camel light.

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » January 5, 2003, 10:35 am

It's quite funny watching a drug user defend his habit. It's not that harmless, it only detroys my body, and my mind! Forget it, I don't need a short term memory, and heaven forbid I need lungs to breathe with! (Smoking Marijuana has a detrimental effect on your airways, moreso than smoking cigarettes, however you tend not to smoke marijuana as much) Don't forget destroyed nasal passages, unnaturally accelerated heart rates, etc.

If drugs were so grand, why don't we have more pregnant women taking these drugs, because really they're not that harmful, and we all want to have crack addict babies born in this world.

Xyun - clue in buddy. Drugs = HARMFUL, that's a fact. I could give a rats ass either way if you choose to do them or not, but don't go around fucking portraying that they are some sort of grand utopian substance. In small or large doses, they have an adverse effect on your body. As someone said earlier on, drugs are an escapism from our day to day life, which is part of the hook, because people enjoy that escape. How does this escape accomplish anything besides making you feel 'good' temporarily? It doesn't.

And yes nicotine causes addiction, infact numerous drugs have physically addictive qualities to them, and most if not all drugs if used over an extended period of time have the chance to cause psychological addiction. (Though that can be said for any vice).

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » January 5, 2003, 1:36 pm

pot doesnt have nearly the effect on your lungs as cigarettes, people smoke pot 1-7 times a week
people smoke cigareetes 1/2-3 packs a day

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » January 5, 2003, 1:50 pm

1 joint does about 4x more damage than 1 cigarette, yes you smoke pot far less (generally) than you do a cigarette, however you cannot just simply dismiss the damage it does because of that.

Hayley · Post by **Hayley** » January 5, 2003, 2:10 pm

In a drug sense no, EQ is not addictive, ie my body does not chemically rely on whatever EQ has to offer. There are two distinct types of addictions. One addiction that is caused biochemically and one that is psychological. My body is not going to go into painful withdrawals if I quit playing EQ vs the everyday heroin user who all of a sudden can't afford his/her chemically dependent habit.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » January 5, 2003, 2:52 pm

1 joint does about 4x more damage than 1 cigarette

Do you pull this stuff our of yer arse or can you back it up?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » January 5, 2003, 3:12 pm

no filter = no backup needed

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » January 5, 2003, 6:54 pm

Tanc, no it's not pulled out of my arse. Get off your lazy ass and go look up some shit and you'll see the testing done on this. Also - using your head that you aren't smoking through a filter kind of points out to Captain Obvious and crew that it'll be worse for you (just like smoking self rolled cigarettes w/out filters).

You can find posted testing in the following places:

http://www.jointogether.org/sa/news/sum ... 57,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/684328.stm

http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/m ... armful.jsp

etc..

Millie · Post by **Millie** » January 5, 2003, 8:05 pm

Marijuana may not be chemically addictive, but smoking it will do a number on your lungs -- about the same damage as one to two unfiltered tobacco cigarettes, depending on how much pot you smoke.

People harbor the mistaken impression that it's the tobacco in cigarettes that causes lung damage and subsequent cancer. It's not the tobacco, or even the nicotine that does so. It's all the "tar," ash, and carcinogenic compounds in the burning leaves that screws you over. The nicotine addicts you, which may indirectly 'kill' you off. But in the end, it's inhaling all that ash that physically ends your life.

That kind of ash is present in anything you light on fire and then smoke. It doesn't matter if it's weed, tobacco, cloves, or even plain paper. Any burning substance that you inhale will hurt your lungs.

Souldinkou Soulfury · Post by **Souldinkou Soulfury** » January 6, 2003, 1:11 am

Wtf..

Drakson "What a hippy"

Kaluian_CT · Post by **Kaluian_CT** » January 6, 2003, 1:36 am

I love the Drug talk. It gets so heated, yet it is one of the most hypocritical debates out there.
Everyone does drugs, from asprin, to nicotine, to caffiene, to your perscription drugs, alcohol, and finally your big bad mean,..Illegal Drugs!

Basically it comes down to morality. All drugs chemically alter your body and can be harmful in one way or another, mostly they are harmful if abused, ie taking to much of it. Too much Heroin will kill you. Too much asprin will kill you. Debatably (and I have taken both) they are both pain killers, so whats the difference? It boils down to quantity. I contend that the difference is in the way they make you feel. Asprin has no Euphoric effects, it simply relieves pain, however Heroin not only relieves pain it also makes ya feel really really good, so people in turn take too much of it.

Then there is the question of addiction. Well this is little different than the afore-mentioned. You can become addicted to ANYTHING. I have seen some wierd ass shit people are addicted to since the internet. People get addicted to many forms of cleanliness, people get addicted to TV, Internet, they're jobs, Religion, Sex, Money, and even rubbing shit all over they're bodies and having sex. Anything is fair game in addiction.
The difference is, it seems,...the better the addiction makes you feel, the more of it there is out there.

So again, it comes down to morality really, some drugs are legal, some are illegal. The legal ones are regulated by the government so people aren't as likely to take too much. The illegal ones are the ones left up to you to decide how much is "OK", how much "I can handle".
The problem with deciding for yourself is,..no one wakes up one morning and says,..Hmmmm, think I'll become a crack-whore today. Noone knows what they are susceptable to until they turn around a year later with a problem. Then again, some just don't have the "trait" and can do a drug and simply walk away, without ever giving the drug another thought.

So basically if your moral compass allows for illegal acts, you must then decide if you wish to gamble on your susceptibilty to drug addiction.

My two cents.

Aedryn · Post by **Aedryn** » January 6, 2003, 2:37 am

Hrmmm Drugs.....

Well one thing I see kinda missed so far is that fact that the drugs that are banned are banned for particular chemical reasons....not moral reasons at all.

Kaluian_CT reply was getting quite close but was far off in a few ways....

Asprin vs Herion.....kinda like Pot verses Smokes......the big differences are the bad drugs have chemicals in them which alter your mind in some way. These can be very dangerous as they affect people on an individual basis not in general. For example pot can affect people with depression making them even more depressed sometimes to the point of suicide, however even if you don’t normally get depression it can trigger chemical reactions in the brain which can lead to depression.
This doesn’t stop with depression, it can also affect bi-polar people even to the point where someone may genetically have bi-polar tendencies but they never show until using pot. Hence from my understanding I doubt any Government in the world (it's banned in Aus also) would ever legally sell pot due to the public liability they would be opening themselves up for.

So yes Pot is a drug in the sense of being bad.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » January 6, 2003, 3:17 am

Hum ya know after a goood 12-13 hours of drinking ( seeing thats all I can do to to job ) I have come to the conclusion of Who really gives 3 shits. If you wanna do Pot, cocain, lsd. shroom. herion, or what ever the hell you do do it and be content.

You can sit here and argue back and forth for days, months, years about this shit but in the end people do what they want. I happen to get drunk thats my weakness other people have others what ever they maybe. For all you people to come and say shit about what ever drug it is your talking about your being a hipocrit. Because the simple fact is we all use one drug or another wheather its legal or not.

Fogive me for spelling errors and grammer errors as im completly beyond drunk. If you dont like what I had to say suck my dick if you agree with what I say well just to be fair with the peps that disagree you too can suck my dick.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » January 6, 2003, 12:21 pm

The difference between aspirin and herion is that herion will kill you fucking dead.

Kaluian_CT · Post by **Kaluian_CT** » January 6, 2003, 8:03 pm

Yes, and aspirin in sufficiant quantities will kill you just as dead. So, as I was saying, the difference is in quantity only.

The government regulates the quantity in which one takes aspirin. The government does not regulate obviously, the quantities one takes when taking illegal heroin, so in turn, people take way too much and die.

Pharmaceutical grade morhine, very similar to herion in nearly every aspect is taken my millions of Americans everyday in hospitals everywhere, the differencec is, it is administered by proffesionals for pain management instead of getting your kicks, and guess what big guy,....they don't die.

As for Aedryn's response, you bring up valid points, but unfortunatly there is one flaw.
Alcohol.
This drug is as chemically damaging to the body and mental facilities as most if not all of your mainstream illegal drugs. To deny this is simply not being informed. However our government, along with many many other governments condone the use of this particular drug, and it boggles my mind as to what the reasons are.

Anyone that has taken illegal drugs as I have, and I have taken nearly all of them, will tell you the most fucked up they have ever been was when the were drunk.

Again, it comes down to quantity, alcohol taken in moderation is as harmless as any other drug, one must simply decide if they are willing to risk the pitfalls of addiction that can often come with drug usage.

Xaem · Post by **Xaem** » January 6, 2003, 9:27 pm

I think Rekaar said it best.

Rekaar. wrote:

Munt · Post by **Munt** » January 6, 2003, 9:33 pm

The only drug I would discourage anyone from using is the daddy of them all, television. A box you sit in front of in a semi trance like state getting programmed by your government.

Stop knockin' the natural shit.

Aedryn · Post by **Aedryn** » January 6, 2003, 11:00 pm

In regards to Alcohol, mostly tho it is shorterm affects not longterm.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 6, 2003, 11:06 pm

Moderation! I take really hardcore drugs once every 2 months or so. these include Extasy, LSD, shrooms, haroine. Got to make sure you have 2 days off for this shit for recovery time.

Stuff like crank, coke, speed I take every now and then, about once every week or two. Pills about the same. I like valium a lot, and then there's other pain killers and muscle relaxers, hydrocodine, percocet, etc.

I am addicted to cigarettes (I started smoking cigarettes when I got over my coke addiction), and weed. These are everyday things for me.

I drink beer but I get drunk only about once a year.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 7, 2003, 1:10 am

Post while you can bro, your brain cells are an endangered species.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 7, 2003, 1:17 am

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 7, 2003, 2:02 am

Post while you can bro, your brain cells are an endangered species.

What price art, eh?

Maybe if I can kill enough brain cells I can become like one of you!

Kaluian_CT · Post by **Kaluian_CT** » January 7, 2003, 2:58 am

Aedryn wrote,..

In regards to Alcohol, mostly tho it is shorterm affects not longterm.

Again, I think you are misinformed. The following are the long term effects of alcohol abuse. Again, I stress that what makes any drug dangerous is its quantity. The following is a study based on the adverse effect of alcohol by The National Institute on Alcoholism and Alcohol Abuse.

" Dr. Sidney Cohen, a drug abuse expert, described alcohol as "the most dangerous drug on earth". There are a variety of drinking patterns and the range of injury among alcohol abusers is great. Some are mildly injured and can recover on their own with the right tools and techniques. Others are critically injured and need hospitalization and prolonged rehabilitation with custodian supervision.

We compare the heavy drinker with an injured person - the body is damaged and must heal. The damage is done by the toxic effects of alcohol, by nutrient deficiencies and by other adverse effects of the wrong food such as food allergy. Heavy drinkers tend to starve - they eat little or have limited, inferior food choices. They have used up their nutrient stores and are often drawing on their own tissues for fuel

The Negative Effects of alcohol abuse include:

Water loss: There is rapid water loss (diuresis) within the first several hours of AB ingestion due to decreased secretion of antidiuretic hormone, a pituitary peptide.

Electrolyte Depletion: Depletion of tissue magnesium (the serum magnesium level may not be reduced). Replacement of magnesium deficits is a recognized part of treatment of post-intoxication states. Hypocalcemia may also result from magnesium depletion by reducing parathyroid hormone-induced mobilization of calcium from bone. Reduced serum phosphate may lead to muscle weakness and degeneration.

Vitamin Deficiency: Folate deficiency occurs in the majority of binge-drinking alcoholics and is a common cause of anemia. Inadequate dietary intake, intestinal malabsorption, and impaired folate storage in the liver all contribute to folate deficiency. Alcohol ingestion also interferes with vitamin B12 absorption. Deficiencies of the two vitamins cause large-cell (megaloblastic) anemia.

Thiamine deficiency may occur in long-term alcohol users as a consequence of both inadequate ingestion and malabsorption of the vitamin. With severe deficiency, major brain disturbance or alcoholic psychosis emerges (Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome). The brain dysfunction is global, with disordered thinking, feeling, remembering, and disturbed motor coordination. Thiamine replacement corrects the grosser dysfunctions of the brain and it has been proposed that alcoholic beverages be fortified with thiamine as a means of preventing this syndrome.

Pyridoxine: (B6) metabolism is disturbed by the process of alcohol oxidation, contributing to anemia. Pellagra, or niacin deficiency, is common in chronic alcoholics. Pellagra is recognized by the three D's: Diarrhea, Dermatitis, and Dementia.

Vitamin A storage is commonly decreased in alcohol-induced liver disease. With ABAB, protein-calorie malnutrition often occurs. Liver disease may lead to low blood protein and decreased serum levels of branched-chain amino acids.

Micronutrients: Trace element metabolism may be disordered with regular AB input. Alcohol may increase the urinary loss of zinc and the gastrointestinal absorption of iron. Zinc deficiency aggravates vitamin A deficiency, since zinc is needed in the transformation of vitamin A into its active form. Contamination of beer with arsenic or cobalt has caused death from heart failure.

TOXICITY TO DIGESTIVE ORGANS

Liver damage is the best known result of alcohol abuse. The liver will swell with acute intoxication, often painfully, and will show fatty infiltration and enlargement if AB ingestion continues regularly. With excessive AB over many years, the ravaged liver becomes scarred, shrunken, and relatively non-functional. This end-stage cirrhosis is associated with the yellow, demented alcoholic, belly swollen with water (ascites).

Pancreatitis is a consequence of alcoholism. Alcohol stimulates pancreatic secretion. Malnutrition with deficiencies of protein and vitamins contributes to chronic pancreatic dysfunction. Impairment of pancreatic enzyme production spoils digestion and contributes to malabsorption of nutrients. Decreased insulin production may cause or aggravate diabetes.

Alcoholic beverages contribute to malnutrition by replacing foods needed for essential nutrients and by interfering with absorption, storage or metabolism of the essential nutrients. Ethanol may suppress appetite and consumption of food. In some individuals, however, AB's trigger excessive eating instead. Food choices follow an addictive pattern, with nutrient deficiencies based on poor food choices. Bowel distension and diarrhea are common GIT effects and are correlated with increased brain disturbances. The increased absorption of undigested proteins sets the stage for all the food "allergic" diseases.

Another List of the Disease and Dysfunction Associated with Alcohol Abuse
From the National Institute (USA) on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism No. 14 PH 302 October 1991

Medical conditions. Alcohol has been shown to be directly toxic to the liver. Approximately 90 to 100 percent of heavy drinkers show evidence of fatty liver, an estimated 10 to 35 percent develop alcoholic hepatitis, and 10 to 20 percent develop cirrhosis. Fatty liver is reversible with abstinence, alcoholic hepatitis is usually reversible upon abstinence, and while alcoholic cirrhosis is often progressive and fatal, it can stabilize with abstinence. In addition to liver disease, heavy alcohol consumption causes chronic pancreatitis and malabsorption of nutrients .

The prevalence of alcoholic cardiomyopathy (heart muscle disease) is unknown. Alcohol-induced heart damage appears to increase with lifetime dose of alcohol. Alcohol can damage the brain in many ways. The most serious effect is Korsakoff's syndrome, characterized in part by an inability to remember recent events or to learn new information. The incidence of alcohol-related brain damage is approximately 10 percent of adult dementias in the United States. Milder attention and memory deficits may improve gradually with abstinence. Additional diseases strongly linked to alcohol consumption include failure of reproductive function and cancers of the mouth, larynx, and esophagus. Hospitalized alcoholics have also been found to have an increased prevalence of dental problems, compared with nonalcoholic psychiatric patients, including missing teeth and nonrestorable teeth.

Psychiatric disorders. Despite the study's shortcomings, data from the ECA** provide a starting point for assessing the prevalence of some comorbidities (on a lifetime basis). Based on ECA data, alcoholics are 21.0 times more likely to also have a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder compared with nonalcoholics. Similar "odds ratios" for some other psychiatric comorbidities are as follows: drug abuse, 3.9 times; mania, 6.2 times; and schizophrenia, 4.0 times. There is only a mild increase in major depressive disorder among alcoholics (odds ratio 1.7), and essentially no increase in anxiety disorders.

Antisocial personality disorder. The strongest correlate of alcoholism documented in the ECA is antisocial personality disorder (ASPD). Comorbid ASPD has prognostic and treatment implications for alcoholics. Patients with ASPD have an earlier age of onset of alcohol and other drug abuse and a more rapid and serious course of illness.

Bulimia is an eating disorder in which patients, usually female, binge on sugar- and fat-rich meals, and purge regularly, as by self-induced vomiting. This disorder is characterized by craving, preoccupation with binge eating, loss of control during binges, an emphasis on short-term gratification, and ambivalence about treatment--symptoms that resemble those of addictive disorders . Bulimics commonly exhibit multiple drug use disorders and have high rates of alcoholism. Between 33 and 83 percent of bulimics may have a first-degree relative suffering from alcohol abuse or alcoholism.

Although it has been suggested that alcoholism and depression are manifestations of the same underlying illness, the results of family, twin, and adoption studies suggest that alcoholism and mood disorder are probably distinct illnesses with different prognoses and treatments. However, symptoms of depression are likely to develop during the course of alcoholism, and some patients with mood disorders may increase their drinking when undergoing a mood change, fulfilling criteria for secondary alcoholism. When depressive symptoms are secondary to alcoholism, they are likely to disappear within a few days or weeks of abstinence, as withdrawal symptoms subside.

Anxiety. Studies (not using ECA data) indicate that approximately 10 to 30 percent of alcoholics have panic disorder, and about 20 percent of persons with anxiety disorders abuse alcohol. Among alcoholics entering treatment, about two-thirds have symptoms that resemble anxiety disorders. The relation between major anxiety disorders and alcoholism is unclear (30). Several studies indicate that anxious patients may use alcohol or other drugs to self-medicate, despite the fact that such use may ultimately exacerbate their clinical condition.

The strongest correlation between alcoholism and severe anxiety symptoms occurs in the context of alcohol withdrawal. The severe tremors, feelings of tension, restlessness, and insomnia associated with withdrawal begin to subside after 4 or 5 days, although a vulnerability to panic attacks and to generalized anxiety may continue for months. Because these symptoms decrease with abstinence, they are unlikely to represent an independent anxiety disorder . Interestingly, subjects suffering from both alcoholism and panic disorder are unable to distinguish between a number of symptoms common to both disorders.

Other drug abuse. Based on ECA data, alcoholics are 35 times more likely than nonalcoholics to also use cocaine. Similar odds ratios for other types of drugs are: sedatives, 17.0 times; opioids, 13.0 times; hallucinogens, 12.0; stimulants, 11.0; and marijuana and related drugs, 6.0. Surveys of both clinical and nonclinical populations indicate that at least 90 percent of alcoholics are nicotine dependent. "

I would challenge anyone to find an illegal drug that does more long term and short term damage to the body.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 7, 2003, 11:23 am

I would challenge anyone to actually read your long post and not just skip past it.

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » January 7, 2003, 11:49 am

I fail that challenge.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 7, 2003, 11:59 am

I read it until I saw the word abstinence.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 7, 2003, 12:33 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:I would challenge anyone to actually read your long post and not just skip past it.

i too have failed.

drugs are drugs. if them being called drugs is not aesthetically pleasing to you, welcome to reality. that being said, i think quite a few of them can be used recreationally in a reasonably safe fashion. but you should educate yourself on the real health risks you are putting yourself in, and they vary dramatically. And don't just look to the facts that support your drug of choice and ignore the facts that would counterweigh them (people tend to do that). For instance, LSD is not neurotoxic, therefore, it is harmless. Haha, not so fast buddy. I know some voices in your head who will tell you otherwise!

yeah and NORML isn't an objective source either

that being said, i think the criminal implications are something certainly to consider. Getting a buzz isnt worth putting yourself at serious risk to being caught for a crime or being robbed or mugged by some thug you are trying to by drugs from.
of course buying drugs from strangers is a good way to get shitty drugs too.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » January 7, 2003, 3:53 pm

Something hard every couple months (a special party), coke or pills etc every week (a weekend party) and pot every day (you didnt say how much) aint that moderate hon. Its not raving druggie status, but its too close for comfort. Used to have a friend who basicly destroyed himself with not much more, and he never even got up to coke or heroin. Pills were what got him as far as I can tell. He's still alive, but his mind is broken, just cracked and disjointed shadows of what he used to be.

Its playing with fire, especially since you admit to having been addicted to coke before. You say you're no longer addicted to coke (although you do admit that you essentially traded one addiction for another (smoking), which isnt exactly a clean victory. It just gave you a crutch which gave you enough strength and distraction to resist coke, is what it sounds like. It is a victory, but now you live with a crutch. You're weaker than you were. How many more such victories can you afford? If you slip back into drug addiction again, either coke or something else, you may not find a useable crutch to help you next time hon. I know you dont intend to get addicted to anything else, but thats pretty meaningless. I doubt you intended to get addicted to coke or smoking either, but here you are. Its just risky behaviour, and not low risk either, relatively speaking. Doing the mish-mash you are, longterm (say 10 years) I wouldnt give you better than 75% odds of escaping without noticeable damage (not necessarily major, but noticeable) and nothing worse than a smoking addiction, and only 20% odds of getting away scott-free. 75% may sound like good odds, but they arent really. Very few chemical hobbies give you worse odds, including alchohol., because little else is as insidiously addictive. Hope you make it.

Pot- Never tried pot myself. Back in my "lets try smoking" phase I never actually figured out how to inhale and not promptly choke to death.

I didnt have any peer pressure to make me keep trying till I did figure it out, so later on when drugs became an option in my life,lack of ability to inhale and not promptly die kept me from accepting offered tokes. Nothing virtuous or clever on my part, just how it happened to work out. But I was around people who did smoke pot, and got to watch with an unclouded mind and see what happened.

My conclusion is- Pot makes you mellow. Pot makes you stupid. Pot makes you easily amused. Mellow seems to be pretty universal, but how stupid, and how easily amused, and how fast in each category varies a lot from person to person. The first 2 friends I had who smoked pot were on the extreme end of the scale. One small joint and you could just watch their IQ's drop 20 points in 5 minutes. (It was watching that that made avoiding pot a specific policy of mine, rather than just a "not yet, lemme figure out how to inhale first" thing, and racked up my caution towards other drugs as well. I was proud of my intelligence, and kibbling it was a serious turnoff.) They became noticeably more mellow too, although they were pretty mellow to begin with, and were a bit more easily amused although not much. Mainly they just became laid back and not-quite bright. Later smokers I met tended to not be as heavily affected as Pat and Eddie in IQ. They were all affected, but with some it was very hard to tell, with others it wasnt hard, but it wasnt a large change either. But the easily amused thing became more obvious, and seemed to vary a lot from person to person, just like the IQ drop. Some would just grin more readily at normally amusing things, others became complete gigglers. There was some correlation between lowered IQ and easily amused, but it was by no means absolute. Some, like Pat and Eddie, became idiots but just grinned a bit more readily, others stayed basicly smart but giggled at everything. The giggling idiot is not uncommon though, and is obviously the most memorable, hence the popular stereotype. Both the IQ loss and the giggling syndrome are worsened by heavier use, but there seemed to be a sort of cap in place- Pat and Eddie got stupid on one small joint, but if they smoked more they didnt get any stupider. Other people who didnt lose much from one joint would continue to lose IQ as they smoked more during a given session till they reached Pat and Eddie's level, although it might require up to twelve times as much to get there in some cases. The same applies to easily amused- those who became giggling fools immediately didnt get much worse with more, but the ones who just grinned with a single joint did continue to sink into giggling with more tokes.

The same general rule applied to mellowness too- the more everyone smoked the more everyone tended towards the same plateau of mellowness. But the initial effects, while still individually varied, were much less varied and much more consistently noticeable for mellowness than for IQ or amusement. While some people would lose 100% of their IQ loss or become 100% amused from one joint and others would only lose/gain 10%, everyone went at least 25% towards maximum mellowness from one joint, and virtually nobody went more than 50%

The one traditionally reputed symptom of pot smoking I havent noticed is the munchies. I dunno, maybe I dont have the right kind of friends.

Mostly the effects wear off fairly quickly, although the stupid lingers a bit longer. But the stupid can build up over time if you smoke enough and become a semi-permanent condition, and is a universal trait of pot abusers (heads) even if you manage to find one who hasnt smoked for a few days for some reason. They have undertones of easily amused and mellow too, but its the stupidity that stands out., and there arent many drugs I can think of that do that. I've watched people descend into being heads, and permanently stupid. However, it is also only permanent while they continue to smoke at least some pot. If they stop smoking and stay off it long enough their IQ does recover, although it can take 6-9 months to do it. I've seen people come back from being heads too. Unfortunately I havent seen the same person become a head and then come back from it so I cant say if their IQ recovers fully or just mostly, but it does at least recover a lot.

Some people think pot lets you be profound etc, have big ideas and so on. I've heard some. All I can say is I can usually tell I'm talking to someone with 20 less IQ... It might let some people clear day to day distractions from their minds so they can suddenly see and understand something they've already been told (like - plan for the worst, hope for the best) but I dont think I'd try to go so far as to say it expands your mind...

Overall it doesnt seem addictive, and seems pretty harmless, certainly less so than alchohol or smoking, not having the longterm addictive qualities of either. There is no Tokers Anonymous to go with AA, and the people I've seen come back from being Heads (the level of use that equals alchoholism I think) havent had any big struggles to do so, they just stopped smoking for one reason or other and never look at it again, whereas alchoholics and smokers have a lifelong struggle with it. Wouldnt have any objections to legalising it, with all the usual alchohol restrictions (dont want a giggling idiot driving any more than I want a drunk driving), and some extra no smoking in public rules (second hand smoke being more of an issue for pot

) There are some lung health concerns, but less than with cigarettes due to lower on average effective intake. Probably no cigarette butt litter issues either- after all, who's gonna throw away a bit of perfectly good weed?...

(What happens if you try to smoke pot through a traditional filter btw? Does it still have its effect or does that mess it up? Anyone know? ) It would legalise hemp too, with all the options that plant fibre makes available too, which would be a nice bonus. Wouldnt hurt to have the incidental affects on crime rates either. Would annoy any number of biker gangs who grow the stuff, who probably couldnt get licenses to grow it legelly and couldnt compete with lower priced legally grown stuff. Shame that..

Anyways, this is what happens when I cant sleep, so suffer like I am! Nyah!

But now I think I'll go try again.

*Hugs*
Varia

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » January 8, 2003, 4:09 am

I met God a few years back and he said to me, "Son, I have something that will make you feel wonderful, but the price you will pay is a 20 pt. IQ deduction."

I thought, well, even with the penalty I will still be smarter than everyone I come across so I thought, fuck it, I'll take it!

Maybe it was the devil dressed up like god or something.

Aedryn · Post by **Aedryn** » January 9, 2003, 12:24 am

Kaluian_CT

I'm not misinformed

I can gladly post 3 textbooks if you want on what my point was, I was commenting on how pot can affect you even a small amount in the long run ie: trigger something in the brain when can cause bad side effects, that is bi-polar tendances and other nasty things. Anything in excess in bad,...simple .Take panadol have more then 10 or 12 and it gets dangerous, have 24 you die. simple. Pot in small amounts can be bad. Alcohol is small amounts may not have as bad side affects if any.

VeeshanVault

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