Politicians + Religion = Shit

What do you think about the world?
Hesten
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Post by Hesten »

Cartalas wrote: I still think that abortion is to easy in this country maybe we should hold the dumbasses that have unprotected sex accountable is the answer, now before you jump all over me and say " what about the raped women" I am all for them making their decision but for me its still murder.
But youre still agains sex education and in any way informing those dumbasses that have protected sex about the concequences (sorry about the spelling, too drunk to remember the correct spelling ATM :)), right?
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"
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Re: Politicians + Religion = Shit

Post by Hesten »

dibit_eq wrote:
Avestan wrote:
dibit_eq wrote:
noel wrote:I hope he comes down with a terminal disease

Well, he'll have the money made from this war to be one of the very few Americans to afford the cure that China or Singapore will have produced over the next year or so.
Yeah, money is being made left and right. The dollars are just rolling in.

Well, yeah, the US government might file for chapter 11 in a few months, but I'm certain that his stock portfolio is still going strong.
Yeah, gonna be fun to see how long the US is gonna last if this goes on, the government are getting in deeper and deeper economical shit, but sinec their stock portfoliosx are good, and Haliburton are still making money, i guess its ok :)


This article is quite interesting about the current US economical situation:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.j ... xcity.html

Ill pull out some of the funnier parts:
Prof Kotlikoff said that, by some measures, the US is already bankrupt. "To paraphrase the Oxford English Dictionary, is the United States at the end of its resources, exhausted, stripped bare, destitute, bereft, wanting in property, or wrecked in consequence of failure to pay its creditors," he asked.
The figure is massive because President George W Bush has made major tax cuts in recent years, and because the bill for Medicare, which provides health insurance for the elderly, and Medicaid, which does likewise for the poor, will increase greatly due to demographics.

Prof Kotlikoff said: "This figure is more than five times US GDP and almost twice the size of national wealth. One way to wrap one's head around $65.9trillion is to ask what fiscal adjustments are needed to eliminate this red hole. The answers are terrifying. One solution is an immediate and permanent doubling of personal and corporate income taxes. Another is an immediate and permanent two-thirds cut in Social Security and Medicare benefits. A third alternative, were it feasible, would be to immediately and permanently cut all federal discretionary spending by 143pc."
But i know what can be done about it. More tax cuts for the rich, after all, thats what Bush been doing so far, and all the neocons seems to like it.
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"
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Post by Boogahz »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 59_pf.html
Army to End Expansive, Exclusive Halliburton Deal
Logistics Contract to Be Open for Bidding

By Griff Witte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, July 12, 2006; A01



The Army is discontinuing a controversial multibillion-dollar deal with oil services giant Halliburton Co. to provide logistical support to U.S. troops worldwide, a decision that could cut deeply into the firm's dominance of government contracting in Iraq.

The choice comes after several years of attacks from critics who saw the contract as a symbol of politically connected corporations profiteering on the war.

Under the deal, Halliburton had exclusive rights to provide the military with a wide range of work that included keeping soldiers around the world fed, sheltered and in communication with friends and family back home. Government audits turned up more than $1 billion in questionable costs. Whistle-blowers told how the company charged $45 per case of soda, double-billed on meals and allowed troops to bathe in contaminated water.

Halliburton officials have denied the allegations strenuously. Army officials yesterday defended the company's performance but also acknowledged that reliance on a single contractor left the government vulnerable. The Pentagon's new plan will split the work among three companies, to be chosen this fall, with a fourth firm hired to help monitor the performance of the other three. Halliburton will be eligible to bid on the work.

The decision on Halliburton comes as the U.S. contribution to Iraq's reconstruction begins to wane, reducing opportunities for U.S. companies after nearly four years of massive payouts to the private sector.

Of the more than $18 billion Congress allocated for reconstruction in late 2003, more than two-thirds has been spent and more than 90 percent has been contractually obligated, according to the inspector general's office overseeing reconstruction work. The rest of the money, which is collectively known as the Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund, needs to be obligated by the end of September.

Army spokesman Dave Foster said in a written response to questions that funding for 11 contracts covering various aspects of reconstruction -- including transportation, communications, water distribution and the electric grid -- will expire this fall. While the contractors will be allowed to finish any work previously requested, no new work can be ordered after September.

Among those contracts is another Halliburton deal, for up to $1.2 billion to restore oil services in southern Iraq. As with the others, it will not be extended.

"The Iraq reconstruction is winding down . . . so there is no need for new contracts to replace the existing," Foster said.

Instead, the Iraqi government will have to find its own contractors to do the work, which includes tackling a large number of projects left undone by the United States.

"This is the year of transition for Iraqi reconstruction. The U.S.-funded projects are being completed and transferred to Iraqi management and control," said James Mitchell, spokesman for the inspector general's office.

That office has repeatedly warned of a "reconstruction gap" between what the United States promised in rebuilding the country after the spring 2003 invasion and what it has delivered. For instance, a contract aimed at building 142 new health centers across Iraq instead produced 20 before the program ran out of money.

The heavy involvement of U.S. contractors in Iraq has been one of the defining features of the American presence there, with private companies called on for duties as varied as guarding supply convoys and analyzing intelligence.

No contractor has received more money as a result of the invasion of Iraq than Halliburton, whose former chief executive is Vice President Cheney.

The logistics work is performed through a subsidiary, Kellogg Brown & Root Services Inc. Last year, the Army paid the company more than $7 billion under the contract, according to a search of government contracting data by Eagle Eye Inc., a private consulting firm. The number this year is expected to be between $4 billion and $5 billion, according to Randy King, a program manager with the Army.

The company maintains that its billing disputes with Defense Department auditors have been resolved and that its work has received rave reviews from the military. "By all accounts, KBR's logistical achievements in support of the troops in Iraq, Kuwait and Afghanistan have been nothing short of amazing," said company spokeswoman Melissa Norcross in a statement.

King, the Army official, agreed yesterday. "Halliburton has done an outstanding job, under the circumstances," he said. He added that Pentagon leaders ultimately decided they did not want to have "all our eggs in one basket" because multiple contractors will give them better prices, more accountability and greater protection if one contractor fails to perform.

Halliburton initially won the contract in December 2001. At the time, the deal was relatively modest in size, but stubborn insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan have stretched U.S. troops and kept Halliburton busy trying to meet their needs.

Known formally as the Logistics Civil Augmentation Program, or LOGCAP, the contract "has expanded beyond what anyone could have imagined," said Dov S. Zakheim, the Pentagon's comptroller from 2001 until 2004 and now a vice president at consulting firm Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. "The KBR people themselves would point out that the challenges they had coming out of Iraq, over and above everything else they had to do, were taxing their systems. You're really asking too much of one firm to be able to manage all of this."

The original contract included one base year with nine option years. The Army says it will not pick up the next option year and instead plans to put out a new request for proposal by the end of the month. It expects to announce winners in November.

The bidding on the new contract is likely to attract some high-profile suitors, including weapons makers Lockheed Martin Corp. and Northrop Grumman Corp.

"These are huge contracts. They are among the biggest government services contracts that have ever been created," said Loren Thompson, chief operating officer of the Lexington Institute, a defense research organization in Arlington. "Most of the big, integrated defense contractors recognize that new sales of military hardware are going to be hard to come by in the years ahead. There's a general migration to services. And no contract on the horizon is bigger in services than LOGCAP. It's just too big to ignore."

Rep. Henry A. Waxman (D-Calif.), a frequent Halliburton critic, said he would like to see even more companies included as winners in order to increase competition as work arises. But he welcomed the move away from the exclusive contract with Halliburton as a good first step. "When you have a single contractor, that company has the government over a barrel," Waxman said. "One needs multiple contractors in order to have real price competition. Real competition saves the taxpayer money."
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Post by Zaelath »

Boogahz wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 59_pf.html
Army to End Expansive, Exclusive Halliburton Deal
Logistics Contract to Be Open for Bidding

By Griff Witte
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, July 12, 2006
That's what I was gonna say. About time, eh?
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
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Post by kyoukan »

I can't wait until the US slaps Iraq with a 80 billion dollar bill for ousting saddam and going "there, you can pay for it in oil! here is a list of phone numbers of oil companies the bush family has interests in."
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Post by Cartalas »

kyoukan wrote:I can't wait until the US slaps Iraq with a 80 billion dollar bill for ousting saddam and going "there, you can pay for it in oil! here is a list of phone numbers of oil companies the bush family has interests in."
80 Billon? Thats it? I would expect more for freedom.
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Post by Marbus »

More for their freedom to get freakin' killed on a daily basis? Saddam was one evil bastard but he killed a hell of a lot less people than are dying over there right now (on a daily basis that is)... I would like to see you say that to one of the citizens of Iraq who has been living w/o electricity in 120 degree heat with little food, water, no medical attention and bombs going off daily... feedom, ha!

My bet is that most people would take Saddam back if they could have the stability. That is what 90% of Americans don't understand... we talk all the time about "freedom"... to do what? vote? like that made a difference in the past 2 elections, speak our mind? hell people are getting arrested for wearing anti-war T-Shirts. Listen for all you people out there that don't have a clue, people want safety and hope that is their #1 priority. The hope that things will get better and safety and security (which means food, clothing and basic necessities) for their family.

Now in regards to Iraq, Saddam didn't off much hope nor did most people probably feel like they were 100% safe. However they probably felt much safer than they do right now, which is the isssue. IF, as the occupying force, we do NOT bring this shit undercontrol - which I doubt we can but I can hope right? Iraq will not last... and we will, once again, have helped to destablize an already volitile region because we couldn't mind our own business...

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Post by Boogahz »

Marbus wrote:...speak our mind? hell people are getting arrested for wearing anti-war T-Shirts.
When and where? The only time I can think of would be during the State of the Union speech where nobody was arrested, but two people were escorted out. One was wearing a shirt with anti-war phrasing and the other was supporting the troops.
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Post by Zaelath »

Free speech zones don't stifle free speech! Really.

Stalin was of the same mind, but his free speech zones were a little further from his office..
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03 ... index.html

I'm sure there are more, i just googled and spent 10 seconds on the first page of the search.
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Post by Zaelath »

Nick wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03 ... index.html

I'm sure there are more, i just googled and spent 10 seconds on the first page of the search.
Flawed comparison of not being able to smoke cigarettes where you buy them in 10.. 9.. 8..
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Post by Boogahz »

Nick wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03 ... index.html

I'm sure there are more, i just googled and spent 10 seconds on the first page of the search.
That's pretty screwed up. Like I said, I had only heard of the State of the Union incident.
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Post by Cartalas »

Nick wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/03 ... index.html

I'm sure there are more, i just googled and spent 10 seconds on the first page of the search.
He was not arrested for wearing a shirt, He was arrested for Trespassing. He was asked to leave a PRIVATE establishment not owned by the PUBLIC.

Now I agree its fucked up but again it was not the shirt.
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

It was because of the shirt.

When have you ever seen someone arrested for trespassing in a fucking mall just for wearing a type of shirt?
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Post by Cartalas »

Nick wrote:It was because of the shirt.

When have you ever seen someone arrested for trespassing in a fucking mall just for wearing a type of shirt?
He was asked to leave because of his shirt he did not.

Example:

Someone comes to your house wears a shit that you find offensive you ask him to take it off he does not, You ask him to leave and he does not. ( and knowing the peace loving person you are, and the fact you might get sued for hitting him ) so you call the police.
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Post by Nick »

It's not my house, it's a fucking shopping centre.

Do you advocate people having to wear a nazi uniform to enter a shop if that's what the shop demands?

There is no reason for you to defend this Cart.
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Post by Cartalas »

Nick wrote:It's not my house, it's a fucking shopping centre.

Do you advocate people having to wear a nazi uniform to enter a shop if that's what the shop demands?

There is no reason for you to defend this Cart.
Its still private property Nick, I dont advocate it Im just saying he was not arrested because of his shirt.
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Post by Nick »

Yes but in reality he was. He should never have been in a position whereby he either removed his shirt or removed himself.
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Post by Cartalas »

Nick wrote:Yes but in reality he was. He should never have been in a position whereby he either removed his shirt or removed himself.


The shirt started it and the 2 security guards showed be fired but to use it as and example that the Govt. was trampling on his right to free speech is wrong, It was the Private establishment.

Now I bet when the cops were called they were called for tresspassing not " a man is wearing a shirt" And the cops are there to uphold the law and at that time the man was breaking the law.
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Post by Metanis »

Cartalas wrote:
Nick wrote:Yes but in reality he was. He should never have been in a position whereby he either removed his shirt or removed himself.


The shirt started it and the 2 security guards showed be fired but to use it as and example that the Govt. was trampling on his right to free speech is wrong, It was the Private establishment.

Now I bet when the cops were called they were called for tresspassing not " a man is wearing a shirt" And the cops are there to uphold the law and at that time the man was breaking the law.
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Re: Politicians + Religion = Shit

Post by Wulfran »

Avestan wrote:
dibit_eq wrote:
noel wrote:I hope he comes down with a terminal disease

Well, he'll have the money made from this war to be one of the very few Americans to afford the cure that China or Singapore will have produced over the next year or so.
Yeah, money is being made left and right. The dollars are just rolling in.
If you own stock in oil and gas companies they are! Check out the record profits being posted by all the majors from Exxon on down. The fear premium on the price of a barrel of oil is at least $20 and is primarily because of Iraq.
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Post by Xzion »

Cartalas wrote:"Fact: Medical waste does not have an immortal soul. You can argue all you want that life begins at conception; it also ends when an abortion doctor smashes it all up and sucks the bits out with a vaccuum tube."

Medical Waste? Hmm what kind of society have we become when a childs life is snuffed out and called Medical Waste.

While im not against Stem Cell Research, my personal belief is that abortion is murder again that is my belief and the government should not be involved.

I still think that abortion is to easy in this country maybe we should hold the dumbasses that have unprotected sex accountable is the answer, now before you jump all over me and say " what about the raped women" I am all for them making their decision but for me its still murder.

Stem Cell research is important I just dont like the thought of aborted innocent children that were killed because their mommy had a gang bang in the frat house to be sold to the highest bidder.
/siiigh
People like you are a. not only beyond ignorant but indulge in such a mindset or b. don’t know enough about birth control or don’t have enough sex

NO birth control is 100% accurate…mistakes are made and shit happens, period.
Condoms do break, pills do fail, accidents DO occur, I have not only known of one or two, but of several…and all these women who are often only as responsible as us men should suffer an unwanted pregnancy because some godamn zealot believes a growth in a womens body (which has no brain, no means to reason or contemplate anything…settle down guys, one day it COULD be a baby, just like that sperm you wiped off with tissue paper and threw in the trash…but guess what? A fetus is N O T a baby) should be under his personal jurisdiction and not hers? That’s borderline fascism

Even if you are pro-choice, and I can understand that mindset 100%...if you don’t support stem cell research you are simply an ignorant simpleton in denial who wishes to evade logic and throw out something that could be used to revolutionize medicine in some ill conceived hope that your will will one day be forced upon everybody


also, i dont think ANYONE likes to use abortion as a sole means of birth control
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Post by Canelek »

And God sayeth unto the flock. Ye, whoeth come fortheth to thine hizzle. I giveth unto thee some coat hangers and shopvaccs. Goeth forth unto the world and try not to toss fake fetuses at doctors offices, you fucking mindless dolts.

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Nick
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Post by Nick »

:D
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Post by Cartalas »

Xzion wrote:
Cartalas wrote:"Fact: Medical waste does not have an immortal soul. You can argue all you want that life begins at conception; it also ends when an abortion doctor smashes it all up and sucks the bits out with a vaccuum tube."

Medical Waste? Hmm what kind of society have we become when a childs life is snuffed out and called Medical Waste.

While im not against Stem Cell Research, my personal belief is that abortion is murder again that is my belief and the government should not be involved.

I still think that abortion is to easy in this country maybe we should hold the dumbasses that have unprotected sex accountable is the answer, now before you jump all over me and say " what about the raped women" I am all for them making their decision but for me its still murder.

Stem Cell research is important I just dont like the thought of aborted innocent children that were killed because their mommy had a gang bang in the frat house to be sold to the highest bidder.
/siiigh
People like you are a. not only beyond ignorant but indulge in such a mindset or b. don’t know enough about birth control or don’t have enough sex

NO birth control is 100% accurate…mistakes are made and shit happens, period.
Condoms do break, pills do fail, accidents DO occur, I have not only known of one or two, but of several…and all these women who are often only as responsible as us men should suffer an unwanted pregnancy because some godamn zealot believes a growth in a womens body (which has no brain, no means to reason or contemplate anything…settle down guys, one day it COULD be a baby, just like that sperm you wiped off with tissue paper and threw in the trash…but guess what? A fetus is N O T a baby) should be under his personal jurisdiction and not hers? That’s borderline fascism

Even if you are pro-choice, and I can understand that mindset 100%...if you don’t support stem cell research you are simply an ignorant simpleton in denial who wishes to evade logic and throw out something that could be used to revolutionize medicine in some ill conceived hope that your will will one day be forced upon everybody


also, i dont think ANYONE likes to use abortion as a sole means of birth control
Did I say I was against Stem Cell research? Stop sampeling your own product Dumb ass. All I said is I see both sides. And as I said before I DONT CARE IF YOUR CONDOM BREAKS take resposability for your actions. If you play in the traffic to long your gonna get hit. Now STFU sell some Coke and Smile.
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Post by Hesten »

Cartalas wrote:
Xzion wrote:
Cartalas wrote:"Fact: Medical waste does not have an immortal soul. You can argue all you want that life begins at conception; it also ends when an abortion doctor smashes it all up and sucks the bits out with a vaccuum tube."

Medical Waste? Hmm what kind of society have we become when a childs life is snuffed out and called Medical Waste.

While im not against Stem Cell Research, my personal belief is that abortion is murder again that is my belief and the government should not be involved.

I still think that abortion is to easy in this country maybe we should hold the dumbasses that have unprotected sex accountable is the answer, now before you jump all over me and say " what about the raped women" I am all for them making their decision but for me its still murder.

Stem Cell research is important I just dont like the thought of aborted innocent children that were killed because their mommy had a gang bang in the frat house to be sold to the highest bidder.
/siiigh
People like you are a. not only beyond ignorant but indulge in such a mindset or b. don’t know enough about birth control or don’t have enough sex

NO birth control is 100% accurate…mistakes are made and shit happens, period.
Condoms do break, pills do fail, accidents DO occur, I have not only known of one or two, but of several…and all these women who are often only as responsible as us men should suffer an unwanted pregnancy because some godamn zealot believes a growth in a womens body (which has no brain, no means to reason or contemplate anything…settle down guys, one day it COULD be a baby, just like that sperm you wiped off with tissue paper and threw in the trash…but guess what? A fetus is N O T a baby) should be under his personal jurisdiction and not hers? That’s borderline fascism

Even if you are pro-choice, and I can understand that mindset 100%...if you don’t support stem cell research you are simply an ignorant simpleton in denial who wishes to evade logic and throw out something that could be used to revolutionize medicine in some ill conceived hope that your will will one day be forced upon everybody


also, i dont think ANYONE likes to use abortion as a sole means of birth control
Did I say I was against Stem Cell research? Stop sampeling your own product Dumb ass. All I said is I see both sides. And as I said before I DONT CARE IF YOUR CONDOM BREAKS take resposability for your actions. If you play in the traffic to long your gonna get hit. Now STFU sell some Coke and Smile.
So basically you just want people to not have sex EVER? Because as pointed out earlier, a condom mightt break, a pill might not work.
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Post by Cartalas »

Hesten wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Xzion wrote:
Cartalas wrote:"Fact: Medical waste does not have an immortal soul. You can argue all you want that life begins at conception; it also ends when an abortion doctor smashes it all up and sucks the bits out with a vaccuum tube."

Medical Waste? Hmm what kind of society have we become when a childs life is snuffed out and called Medical Waste.

While im not against Stem Cell Research, my personal belief is that abortion is murder again that is my belief and the government should not be involved.

I still think that abortion is to easy in this country maybe we should hold the dumbasses that have unprotected sex accountable is the answer, now before you jump all over me and say " what about the raped women" I am all for them making their decision but for me its still murder.

Stem Cell research is important I just dont like the thought of aborted innocent children that were killed because their mommy had a gang bang in the frat house to be sold to the highest bidder.
/siiigh
People like you are a. not only beyond ignorant but indulge in such a mindset or b. don’t know enough about birth control or don’t have enough sex

NO birth control is 100% accurate…mistakes are made and shit happens, period.
Condoms do break, pills do fail, accidents DO occur, I have not only known of one or two, but of several…and all these women who are often only as responsible as us men should suffer an unwanted pregnancy because some godamn zealot believes a growth in a womens body (which has no brain, no means to reason or contemplate anything…settle down guys, one day it COULD be a baby, just like that sperm you wiped off with tissue paper and threw in the trash…but guess what? A fetus is N O T a baby) should be under his personal jurisdiction and not hers? That’s borderline fascism

Even if you are pro-choice, and I can understand that mindset 100%...if you don’t support stem cell research you are simply an ignorant simpleton in denial who wishes to evade logic and throw out something that could be used to revolutionize medicine in some ill conceived hope that your will will one day be forced upon everybody


also, i dont think ANYONE likes to use abortion as a sole means of birth control
Did I say I was against Stem Cell research? Stop sampeling your own product Dumb ass. All I said is I see both sides. And as I said before I DONT CARE IF YOUR CONDOM BREAKS take resposability for your actions. If you play in the traffic to long your gonna get hit. Now STFU sell some Coke and Smile.
So basically you just want people to not have sex EVER? Because as pointed out earlier, a condom mightt break, a pill might not work.
Did I say that? no I did not I said just be responsable for your mistakes.
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Canelek
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Post by Canelek »

So you are all into saving the fetuses....even if they turn out to be as backwoods as you?

I say that in itself is a crime.

Full-Text-quoting redneck jesus-fearing bitch. Breeding-happy hillbillys like you keep states like Minnesota and Georgia in business. Now that is a crime.
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Xyun
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Post by Xyun »

I would've used texas instead of minnesota. In fact, anywhere along the bible belt (used to be known as the confederacy) would be much more fucked up than minnesota in my opinion.
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Post by Siji »

Because of course, everyone knows what great parents people that have absolutely NO desire to BE parents are.. fucking retards.

I have absolutely NO problem with someone being pro-choice or pro-life. That's a personal choice and you're welcome to express your opinion. But absolutely nobody has the right to force a woman to have a baby (or an abortion). That's her body and her life. Pray for her and tell her she's going to hell all you want, but it's her body not yours.

If you want to save a life, join the Peace Corp. Otherwise go back to your fucking bon bons, your Falwell TV show and stay out of everyone else's life.
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Post by Cartalas »

Siji wrote:Because of course, everyone knows what great parents people that have absolutely NO desire to BE parents are.. fucking retards.

I have absolutely NO problem with someone being pro-choice or pro-life. That's a personal choice and you're welcome to express your opinion. But absolutely nobody has the right to force a woman to have a baby (or an abortion). That's her body and her life. Pray for her and tell her she's going to hell all you want, but it's her body not yours.

If you want to save a life, join the Peace Corp. Otherwise go back to your fucking bon bons, your Falwell TV show and stay out of everyone else's life.
Well why didnt I think of that, My god if your going to be a shitty parent just kill the kid what a great solution.
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Post by Nick »

That's what I did.

Accidents happen, even when you take all the precautions.

It's never an easy choice and most of the fucking morons who try and make it out to be either an evil thing to do or an easy way out are the sort of stupid shits that would bolt for the fucking door if they ever found themselves in the same position (unlikely - as they are massive virgins or too prudish for any real sex)
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Post by Siji »

Cartalas wrote:Well why didnt I think of that, My god if your going to be a shitty parent just kill the kid what a great solution.
Why are you so worried about what someone else does to their body? Do you cry yourself to sleep everynight over thinking about all the dead babies that end up on a wad of toilet paper?

Why not just head on over to the Westboro web site and sign up. I'm sure they'd love to have another stupid fuck in their ranks. Hell, you could stand right beside Midnyte.
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Post by Markulas »

anyone in the science and university community can tell you how stupid that veto was.
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