Creative Zen Vision M (iPod's Suck!)

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 3:00 pm

If these don't RedX, here's some more picts (the faded, washed out side is the iPod compared to Zen)

But then, the iPod has great marketing! Who cared if the Zen looks and sound better!

After readnig some more, it looks like Creative just can't make enough of these to meet demand of those in the know. That's why they are out of stock.

Post by **pyrella** » March 24, 2006, 3:13 pm

So what are the key differences between the Vision, and Vision:M

Went to the website - specs look the same, except the :M's screen is half the size?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 3:26 pm

This is the Vision M

The old Vision looks like this: (unless it's a RedX!)

I don't know the differences except that the original Vision has been around for awhile so don't know if it's lacking processing speed, etc..or if same software, etc.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 24, 2006, 3:51 pm

Explain to me again why someone would want to watch a movie/video or look at photographs on a 2.5" screen? On purpose? More than once?

Cause I just don't get it and how good/bad it is at doing it is completely irrelevant. If it sounds better playing music, that's a very good thing. But who is going to stare at a 2.5" screen for 2 hours? Software wise, I'd choose iTunes. Accessories wise, I'd choose iPod. The battery being replacable is also a nice thing for the Zen, but current iPod batteries will on average (if I remember what I read correctly) do a full charge some 500+ times before starting to decrease in life. That's years of battery life for me. Then again, I don't watch movies on a 2.5" screen on it either. By the time my battery starts to bother me, I'm sure there'll be some new gadget to replace it with anyway.

btw: My iPod came with a wall charger, not all do, but some do. It also transfers files to/from quite easily and without any need of any 3rd party software. DOS or Windows, both are just peachy fine and quick.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 24, 2006, 4:13 pm

Geee thanks Winnow for the visual PROOF that 256 colours looks better than 64 colours.

I'm with Siji.
Who the hell would willingly watch video on a tiny little screen like that.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 5:10 pm

Funny listening to the reasoning by iPod owners.

There are plenty of people that commute and don't want to whip out huge devices but wouldn't mind being able to watch ZenCasts for daily news, catch up on a TV series, etc instead of wasting away a long trip to work or travelling on a plane, etc.

I have an hour lunch and many times don't feel like spending it all at a fast food place or store. I assure you, the screen is perfectly watchable as I got wrapped up watching Firefly again after loading it onto the Zen. I'll be taking it on my next flight as well...and any possible business meetings I can get away with watching the Zen (one good reason for why it's small!)

Time and time again all I hear from the Apple geeks is about how well marketed the iPod is or that they wouldn't use something like an FM tuner (huh?) or like a more colorful screen. That's great. No wonder Apple does so well. I realize you own iPods....and there's nothing wrong with that! I mean with arguments like, "I like that iPods are simple. My head would explode if I had the option on the main menu to select FM Tuner or record using a built in Mic." Are you kidding me? You've got to be brain damaged if you can't select "Music" from a menu including such confusing selections as Music, Videos, FM and Pictures and be on your merry way. If you want to live the simple life in Pleasantville (which is damn near what the washed out colors on the Apple iPod gives you) go ahead!

Head to head, I'm taking the Zen Vision. No contest. Just funny how the Apple excusists focus on why they don't want extras like an FM tuner for the same price while ignoring that the important core things like sound quality, formats, battery life, and display are better on the Zen.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 24, 2006, 5:33 pm

There are plenty of people that commute and don't want to whip out huge devices but wouldn't mind being able to watch ZenCasts for daily news, catch up on a TV series, etc instead of wasting away a long trip to work or travelling on a plane, etc.

So TV junkies who can't read...

I have an hour lunch and many times don't feel like spending it all at a fast food place or store.

TV junkies who can't read and who have no friends?

and any possible business meetings I can get away with watching the Zen

...who are too stupid to figure out how to get out of going to pointless meetings?

I like that iPods are simple

I have an ipod shuffle in my pocket.
I can operate it without looking at it and it's big enough (1gig) that I can go weeks without having to refresh the songs on it. I need nothing more.

while ignoring that the important core things like sound quality

Sound quality is relative. To say ipods have poor sound quality is idiotic. It's like saying a Porche is a piece of shit because a Ferrari can go faster.

I have no use for 99% of the features on your Zen.
Why would I pay 300-400% more for features that I will never use and that I don't want?

All those bells and whistles make the Zen a better toy for you. Those of use who don't have a television addiction are more than happy with our ipods and a book/newspaper for our commutes to work.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 24, 2006, 5:50 pm

if you are a content provider, who are you going to license your stuff to?

Apple who can put a revenue stream with your content or somebody who offers you very limited protection?

The devices are only part of the equation. And going forward, it will be more and more about the content. The true challenge for Creative, Sandisk, or anybody else who wants to have a portable media device is how to protect the Intellectual Property (IP) of their content providers.

Apple is the only service with broad reach, excellent data warehousing, targeting and trackability, as well as DRM out there. There is Apple and everybody else is fighting for the scraps.

It's all about the content

Without content, it doesnt matter if your player is 100% better than the competition.

Content = shows, music, movies, etc.

Awesome i can rip a DVD i bought and put it on this thing. great.

i can rip my CDs and put it on this thing. great. that differentiates it from nothing.

Yes i'm sure the 'Zen-casts' will be awesome informative and well produced shows.

Or you can buy 'The Office', 'Battlestar Galactica', NCAA Tournament Games, 'Lost', etc for your video iPod.

i know for somebody like Winnow who steals gigs/day of content they obviously want something that plays it. I see that angle.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 6:13 pm

miir wrote: I have no use for 99% of the features on your Zen.
Why would I pay 300-400% more for features that I will never use and that I don't want?

Dude, If all you want is something like an iPod shuffle, there are a million other players just like it...probably less expensive, smaller, and with FM tuners that can also be operated by touch.

As for the rest of your responses, nice attempt to troll but that's all it was.

Voro's response has a little more merit.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 24, 2006, 6:31 pm

Winnow wrote:Dude, If all you want is something like an iPod shuffle, there are a million other players just like it...probably less expensive, smaller, and with FM tuners that can also be operated by touch.

As for the rest of your responses, nice attempt to troll but that's all it was.

Voro's response has a little more merit.

The ipod shuffle is in the same price range as every other flash MP3 player.

I don't need a smaller player, the shuffle is only slightly larger than my index finger.

I don't need/want a FM tuner.
_____________________________

I don't have to buy batteries.

I can drop it repeatedly... sit on it... throw it across the room and when I turn it on, I know it will work.

I don't have to worry about a LCD screen cracking.

I don't have to worry about digital controls fucking up.

I can plug it into my laptop to transfer files without having to worry about additional cables and without having to unplug other devices.

I actually like itunes... a lot.

So the ipod is the right MP3 player for me.

I'm not up on my soapbox saying it's great and that everything else sucks. You don't seem to understand that what you want from a portable media player is probably not what the majority of consumers want.
The Zen is a better product for your needs while the Ipod shuffle is a better product for mine. They are both good products.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 24, 2006, 6:39 pm

winnow,
calling people apple fanbois and excusists is hilarious considering how you are so anti-apple-anything it borders on religious fanatacism.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 7:35 pm

Voronwë wrote: Yes i'm sure the 'Zen-casts' will be awesome informative and well produced shows.

Or you can buy 'The Office', 'Battlestar Galactica', NCAA Tournament Games, 'Lost', etc for your video iPod.

i know for somebody like Winnow who steals gigs/day of content they obviously want something that plays it. I see that angle.

Zencasts are simply Podcasts with an equally gay but different name.

As for buying stuff for your video iPod, if nothing else, Apple should have learned that limiting your audience when it comes to software/media, is a bad way to do business (see Apple vs Microsoft). The eventual successful portable media delivery system will be one that's open to all players.

And why buy TV shows? When the Zen, unlike the Apple, is compatible with the most popular DVR (Tivo-to-Go), you don't need to be buying your shows when you can easily transfer your Tivo recordings to your player.

There is content protection available beyound iTunes. Check with the other five or so main music content providers. Yahoo, Google, and Microsoft all have or are working on providing more and in a format open to all.

So we are left with an inferior player that is stuck using one format and iTunes for content.

Truant, I don't deny my hatred of Apple but my arguments still stand. The use of fanboi, geeks, etc is just to draw more people into the debate.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 7:52 pm

miir wrote: I'm not up on my soapbox saying it's great and that everything else sucks. You don't seem to understand that what you want from a portable media player is probably not what the majority of consumers want.
The Zen is a better product for your needs while the Ipod shuffle is a better product for mine. They are both good products.

You're the only one trying to compare two completely different class MP3 players. Why not compare a home theater vs your shuffle thing? If you want to debate the shuffle vs other players smaller than it with FM tuners, we can do that but otherwise it's like your trying to tell me the merits of calf implants when the discussion is about penis implants. I don't know anything about either so you win!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 8:46 pm

Apple must be doing something right! Down into the 50's it goes!

OK, i'm done with the Apple bashing. It was a long day at work and was letting off steam. iPods are the bomb. I've always hated Apple though...even back during the C-64 vs Apple II days so this is nothing new.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 24, 2006, 9:10 pm

Winnow wrote:You're the only one trying to compare two completely different class MP3 players. Why not compare a home theater vs your shuffle thing? If you want to debate the shuffle vs other players smaller than it with FM tuners, we can do that but otherwise it's like your trying to tell me the merits of calf implants when the discussion is about penis implants. I don't know anything about either so you win!

You're saying ipods suck (for your needs they do).
I'm saying ipods don't suck (for my needs they don't).

noel · Post by **noel** » March 24, 2006, 10:08 pm

I'll stop using Itunes as my default media/music manager when they pry it out of my cold dead hands. I'm saying this as a person who used to attempt to use windows media player and winamp rather extensively.

As far as the iPod debate goes...

-I think video on a device that small is rather silly.
-If I want good sound quality, I'll listen to music on a home system, not on a portable.
-When I'm out running/cycling, or in working out, I'm really not in a position to mind degraded sound.
-Why would anyone want to listen to FM radio for anything?

In closing, it sounds like if you have the need, the Zen is a really nice portable (other than the lack of iTunes), but for my needs, the iPod... especially the Nano is awesome.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 24, 2006, 10:27 pm

I'd never get the Nano, that thing is a piece of shit. Seen way too many of those being returned, and the customer service provided by Apple is the worse I have ever experienced. If anyone at my company provided that kind of support they would have been fired on the spot.

I fly quite a bit and I've considered something like this. Think I might end up with the PSP instead though. My sister bought the video iPod and I simply don't like the interface and also not a huge fan of iTunes.

Personal preference I suppose heh.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 24, 2006, 11:30 pm

miir wrote:
Winnow wrote:You're the only one trying to compare two completely different class MP3 players. Why not compare a home theater vs your shuffle thing? If you want to debate the shuffle vs other players smaller than it with FM tuners, we can do that but otherwise it's like your trying to tell me the merits of calf implants when the discussion is about penis implants. I don't know anything about either so you win!
You're saying ipods suck (for your needs they do).
I'm saying ipods don't suck (for my needs they don't).

Last time.

There are classes of iPods. I'm comparing the video iPod to the Zen Vision. Please make the connection soon or I'm going to start to worry about you.

Your little shuffle is in a different class and should be compared to an MP3 player in it's price, size and capability range which can easily be done.

I still don't get this whole "I don't care if the iPod doesn't sound as good" mentality...huh? That's the whole point behind a music player. Fuck yes I want the best sound I can get. The people that have used both all go with the Zen as the better sounding player. I'm not making this stuff up. Consider Video a throw-in. Most people are going to load the player with tons of music. If all you've seen is an Apple Video iPod, i don't blame you for not thinking video can be worthwhile at that size.

It's the same price and the Zen is the better buy. I'm not sure what magical thing iTunes can do that other services can't but I do know what the Zen can use and do that the iPod can't while at the same time looking and sounding better.

Would you continue to use your PC's onboard sound if you had an X-Fi card? Probably not. Some people are happy with standard definition TVs still...not me. I want the best looking image I can get...especially if it costs me the exact same amount whether I'm looking at crap or a nice screen...and If a device is primarily for audio...I damn sure want the best sounding one I can get, all other things being equal...but in this case they aren't. The best sounding player also blows away the battery life and capabilities as well of the same priced iPod.

It seems more and more to me that people are sucked into using iTunes service so now put up with whatever Apple throws at them in terms aof a player. Nice. No thanks. Grats you on being stuck with one brand.

Why can't iPods used services like Yahoo Unlimited? Because Apple makes it that way. Force you to by their hardware and their service. Choices are nice. You've got at least five of them with the Zen.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 25, 2006, 2:23 am

Oh wow! So now I am missing out on Yahoo! Unlimited because I have an iPod!?!?

Dude, I didn't "need" iTunes for my music, and I don't "need" Yahoo. You keep arguing points that nobody is saying are needed. If we don't want an FM Tuner, don't try to sell us on one. If we were saying that we needed something better than iTunes and we had iPods, then you could say "Oh, you're missing out on this feature of the Zen." You're just coming off as a rabid SOTA-boy who thinks that every sparkle means the fifth coming of the messiah.

Here's another example. I specifically mentioned my dislike of the controls on the iPod (Nano wheel too small to be specific), but you come back saying how iPods suck and Zen has better video etc.. If you wanted to push how "good" the Zen is, tell me about what would be good about it based on my concerns about the product you're trashing. Miir mentioned what he was happy about with his Shuffle, but you come back by saying that he just doesn't have the best...then you basically say that he's comparing apples (no pun intended) to oranges.

You're lumping all iPod owners into some mystical category that seems to show that they are worse off for owning them, but what they have generally fits their needs (except for my damned big hands with little nano!).

So, in summary, tell me about the controls or STFU!!!!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 25, 2006, 2:29 am

I read through what Yahoo Music Unlimited offers...and there honestly was nothing there that screamed "you need this." The only thing that could "possibly" be worth it would be a bigger library. I say "possibly" because without going through multiple libraries, I don't know if they would even have everything I was looking for.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2006, 2:47 am

Boogahz wrote:Miir mentioned what he was happy about with his Shuffle, but you come back by saying that he just doesn't have the best...then you basically say that he's comparing apples (no pun intended) to oranges.

So, in summary, tell me about the controls or STFU!!!!

I'm trashing Miir? He goes on a serveral post quote-fest that gives unbelievably lame excuses to write off some of the Zen's benefits. "find a way to get out of meeting? Ah nice. Brilliant! "You have no friends because you want some peace and quiet on your lunch break and want to watch a show or listen to music?" Yes! That's it!

Please, Miir is trolling like mad on this thread.

As for the controls, I did comment on them. Did you miss my comments on my initial thoughts after playing around for a night? I can't help those who don't read my posts!

Said Winnow several posts up: wrote:User Interface:

First thing you need to do is set the touchpad to low sensitivity. I thought I was using the Force to move things around just by hovering my hand over the pad it was so sensitive. After setting it to low and playing around a little, it's working out well as are the four corner buttons and side touchpad buttons. Reponse is fast for movies, mp3's and moving around the menus.

I explained the buttons a little more in a later post. Basically, it takes a day to get used to the controls as the touchpad seemed a bit sensitive to me. Now I can operate it while it's inside my pocket or without looking to do the basics.

The shortcut button is great for getting to whatever it is you do most with one click. The back button is nice in that you can get to the top level menu with one (1+ second held) click. Sliding controls are mostly used for volume and scrolling through lists of which there are multiple ways to speed up...keeping finger on top or bottom accellerated the scolling, or jumping to the right and quickly scolling down the alphabit to get to the starting letter you wish (picts in the screenies above show the pop-up alpha thingy on the right side)

I've tried the iPod controls at stores several times and hate them. The four outside buttons along with four touchpad buttons along with the touchpad make navigating around the Zen a breeze. The pop up keyboard for keyword searches is nice and as easy to use as you can make it without direct key entry as well.

My personal opinion is that the Zen's UI/Navigation is yet another thing that's better than iPods but I know that's subjective. All I can say is that I thought the iPod spinwheel touch thing sucked but like the Zen's more balanced approach. You may think differently. I like the limited use of the touch/scroll and more buttons well integrated to speed things up.

And the screen looks fantastic outside in a brightly lit area and just plain stupendous (stupendous > fantastic) in the dark. The four backlit buttons are nice in the dark. I appreaciate the quality screen and UI without having to watch movies...and I don't care about how long I use the screen as the battery lasts much longer than the iPods so no worries about it running out with general extended use during the day.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 25, 2006, 2:56 am

I had only seen your post saying something about the touchpad being on crack. I like the concept of the iPod's wheel, but I hate the way it is used for every function. Yes, it simplifies the use so that anyone could use it, but at what cost? The sensitivity issues are huge for me. The limitations of what it can be used through (material-wise) makes skin design and such suck as well.

I will check this out if it's in stock around here this weekend. I think that the first thing I will be paying attention to with my next mp3 player purchase will be the actual controls. That has really be my only gripe with the iPod...oh, and the range on the sound has been rather blech.

valryte · Post by **valryte** » March 25, 2006, 7:36 am

I own an IPOD myself, but I don't believe it's the greatest MP3 player out there. It's ok I guess. As for the whole iTunes thing, I've never used it. I use some app I found to transfer all my mp3s to it. I forgot the name, it's on my laptop somewhere if anyone wants to know what it is. I will say, it's design is very nice. But even from day one, all the audio reviews have always stated that Creative's players (while not as nice visually from a design standpoint) always sounded better than Apple's IPOD. Anyone who thinks otherwise is either in denial or just can't tell the difference and might as well be listening to an 80's Sony Walkman! I only own one because it was a gift from my boss on my 30th birthday. Otherwise I'd never own one. I might go check out the Zen this weekend. There is one feature that I believe would be the ultimate and that is if these dam devices came with a built in FM transmitter!

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 25, 2006, 7:45 am

I'd be more interested in your review once you've had it a few months rather than days... seems like a lot of people had trouble with component quality over time.

Reader Opinions
ITs pRetty bad
i have just bought the creative Zen Mirco for around 2 months and the sound on it is cracky and it keeps freezing when i turn it on. it took me 5 weeks to just get news from creative.(its still not fixed)
20/03/2006, 02:22 PM

Software/Media Source
The creative media source is crap as crap.... it takes ages to detect for the player and i had mine for 3 months and the computer cant even detect it... DONT WASTE MONEY ON THIS PRODUCT... i am seeing if i can refund mine for a nano!
18/03/2006, 02:34 PM

Crackling sound playing music in HD
I have had this device for about 3 months and now ALL songs on the HD are crackling like a cheap radio. FM sound is fine, but the HUNDREDS of songs on this player all sound like AM radio. $200 for an FM radio! This sucks! DONT BUY THIS PLAYER!
17/03/2006, 03:28 AM

Headphone jack design major flaw
I had bought this product at JB HI-FI in Chatswood for $285 for Christmas 2005 and had it for 3 months and the headphone jack had broken and now is in mono/static sounds only. Though if it wasnt for that, the Micro has great sound, size/space proportion, equalizer and software. I suggest people NOT to buy this product until they fix this problem. For those who already have this player, send it to Creative to get the problem checked or ask a qualified technology checker.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2006, 10:26 am

Zaelath wrote:I'd be more interested in your review once you've had it a few months rather than days... seems like a lot of people had trouble with component quality over time.

Reader Opinions
ITs pRetty bad
i have just bought the creative Zen Mirco for around 2 months and the sound on it is cracky and it keeps freezing when i turn it on. it took me 5 weeks to just get news from creative.(its still not fixed)
20/03/2006, 02:22 PM

Software/Media Source
The creative media source is crap as crap.... it takes ages to detect for the player and i had mine for 3 months and the computer cant even detect it... DONT WASTE MONEY ON THIS PRODUCT... i am seeing if i can refund mine for a nano!
18/03/2006, 02:34 PM

Crackling sound playing music in HD
I have had this device for about 3 months and now ALL songs on the HD are crackling like a cheap radio. FM sound is fine, but the HUNDREDS of songs on this player all sound like AM radio. $200 for an FM radio! This sucks! DONT BUY THIS PLAYER!
17/03/2006, 03:28 AM

Headphone jack design major flaw
I had bought this product at JB HI-FI in Chatswood for $285 for Christmas 2005 and had it for 3 months and the headphone jack had broken and now is in mono/static sounds only. Though if it wasnt for that, the Micro has great sound, size/space proportion, equalizer and software. I suggest people NOT to buy this product until they fix this problem. For those who already have this player, send it to Creative to get the problem checked or ask a qualified technology checker.

Now post the other 150 positive messages.

I'll keep this thread updated. I always do with electronic gizmos I review here.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » March 25, 2006, 11:19 am

I have neither an ipod or a zen. But I don't see how people use iTunes as a positive point for Apple. I tried it out and didn't care for it at all. And I absolutely hate the fact that they make you install it if all you want is the Quicktime player. Perhaps it's because I didn't use it in conjunction with an ipod so didn't see how wonderful it would make my life but.. Eh.. At least I seem to remember it being easy to uninstall.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 25, 2006, 7:34 pm

Winnow wrote: Now post the other 150 positive messages.

I'll keep this thread updated. I always do with electronic gizmos I review here.

That wasn't a selection, that was the whole first page of messages on the first page I saw for a Zen (I think actually the audio only version).

I'm not actually trying to piss in your cheerios, I'm just curious if it's one of those things that is fantastic in the first couple of months, then just becomes impossible to maintain; like a 17 year old mistress.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 25, 2006, 10:13 pm

Friend of mine have had Creative forever, it finally died on her (think it fell under a car wheel or something heh) and she picked up an iPod instead. She regrets that now and will most likely go back to the Creative. I know she had the last one for years and loved it.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 25, 2006, 10:40 pm

Zaelath wrote:
Winnow wrote: Now post the other 150 positive messages.

I'll keep this thread updated. I always do with electronic gizmos I review here.
That wasn't a selection, that was the whole first page of messages on the first page I saw for a Zen (I think actually the audio only version).

I'm not actually trying to piss in your cheerios, I'm just curious if it's one of those things that is fantastic in the first couple of months, then just becomes impossible to maintain; like a 17 year old mistress.

That sounds like a completely different model for starters. "Zen Vision" There is no audio only version of this particular model although I think, like iPod, most Creative players are called Zens.

I checked with my local Fry's yesterday and found out that the Fry's on the other side of town had three White Visions in stock. I caved in and decided to make the trip across town (As a reference for East coasters and their puny states, that's like travelling across three states lines) I get there and, of course, there are no white ones, only pink left. So I used some Vulcan mind tricks on an employee and, voila, he found a white new one in the back somewhere.

So now I have two of these things. I'll be taking the green one back but it works perfectly fine. Now I can do some quality control testing with a second unit. The green one was starting to grow on me so I had to get rid of it quickly...otherwise it's like getting used to an ugly dog's face...you know it's ugly but after awhile, it seems ok because you've seen it so much. I didn't want that to happen to my Vision experience! I wish they had a grey version. My favorite color.

Well, the 90 minute round trip to and from Fry's gave me a chance to check out more of the Zen as I took the green one for the trip.

Some useful notes for prospective buyers...

The processor in this is fast. A lot of times you'll get an electronic device and it will lag or take a long time to bring up big lists. Not with the Zen. I selected the entire list and hit random and had no issues. I can fire through songs as fast as I can switch them and they start playing right away. No delay between songs even with all of them selected to the playlist. Also, it (turns on) starts back up very fast and begins playing wherever you left off in your randomized huge playlist. No idea about the iPod but the Zen is a speedy little device.

This is probably old hat to long time MP3 portable player peeps but it was interesting to randomize my entire playlist. I heard all sorts of songs I didn't know I had. Some good, some bad. The Zen makes it easy to delete a song quickly so that's nice. One thing I wish I could do would be the ability to designate audio books separate so they aren't included in the All Track random selection. I was listening to a song and then all the sudden I was on page 125 of The Wounded Land novel and then back to a song, then next was a Jerry Seinfeld comedy bit. I kept the Zen in my front shirt pocket and it was easy enough to use the controls through the shirt to forward to the next song or use the touchpad to adjust volume.

Summary: Processor in the Zen is fast and key controls easy to used without looking and through cloth : )

While at Fry's I bought a pack of Belkin Palm Pilot Clear overlays. All little portable devices (especially iPods) are known to get scratches on their displays so I bought some clear film to put on the screen to hopefully protect against that. Eventually I may get a full skin for it as there are a few nice tight fitting models that seem to work well according to user comments over on the Creative forums. I still have the original packaging clear covering on my Green Zen.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » March 26, 2006, 1:19 am

Winnow, thank you for all of the information you put together here, but your anti-iPod bias is a distraction to your presentation of the facts about the Zen.

iPods are a cultural phenomenon not a technological one, and they have a marketshare that is enormous. One can't even have a conversation about digital music without comparison to the iPod-iTunes giant.

People will love or hate iPods; they will love or hate ITMS. Those emotions aren't stirred purely on the basis of color depth, contrast ratios, screen brightness, or other technical details. On the other hand, I can't even muster an opinion about this Zen player after reading this thread. It is probably a solid peice of hardware, and you have put together some good factual information, but once again your anti-iPod bias is a distraction from your positive message about this product.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 26, 2006, 1:35 am

Winnow wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Winnow wrote: Now post the other 150 positive messages.

I'll keep this thread updated. I always do with electronic gizmos I review here.
That wasn't a selection, that was the whole first page of messages on the first page I saw for a Zen (I think actually the audio only version).

I'm not actually trying to piss in your cheerios, I'm just curious if it's one of those things that is fantastic in the first couple of months, then just becomes impossible to maintain; like a 17 year old mistress.
That sounds like a completely different model for starters. "Zen Vision" There is no audio only version of this particular model although I think, like iPod, most Creative players are called Zens.

Yup, it is. But I don't expect the Ford Focus Vision to be greatly different in build quality to the Ford Focus... but perhaps I'm alone there

Aaaaaanyway, not to rain on your parade (I don't own either and have little interest in either) but I will be interested to see what they're like down the line, so to speak.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 26, 2006, 5:33 am

Zaelath wrote: Yup, it is. But I don't expect the Ford Focus Vision to be greatly different in build quality to the Ford Focus... but perhaps I'm alone there

So you don't expect a Dodge Viper to perform better than a Dodge Neon? that explains things. : ) I'll reserve a place in the clueless asylum for you. : )

Arch: my iPod bashing is completely on purpose. I know full well it's a fad and those sicken me. It's fun to debate fad/phenomenon vs performance fact. It really brings out the irrational side of people as they try to defend their marketing driven product vs a performance driven one.

Those who wish to can read past the flames can see the worthwhile info included in the posts. I could care less if people want a Zen Vision or not but it's worth my time to try and beat down the marketing brainwashing of Apple while relating my experiences with a new product.

When in iPodville, do as the iPodders do. All you see on TV is iPod...reverse it and play a shitload of Creative Zen commercials and these same people would be spouting off about how great Zen Visions are and questioning why the hell would anyone want an iPod.

Commercial driven, fad driven, hip hop, body rock, give your dog a bone.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 26, 2006, 6:14 am

Winnow wrote:
Zaelath wrote: Yup, it is. But I don't expect the Ford Focus Vision to be greatly different in build quality to the Ford Focus... but perhaps I'm alone there
So you don't expect a Dodge Viper to perform better than a Dodge Neon? that explains things. : ) I'll reserve a place in the clueless asylum for you. : )

The Viper and the Neon are completely different products; hence why I suggested two hypothetical products that differred by an extention rather than being a completely different line.

The Zen is $200 RRP, the Zen Vision $300 RRP.

The Viper is ~$83000, the Neon is ~$14000, so no, I don't expect the build quality of the Neon to be an indication of the build quality of the Viper, when the one is six times the cost of the other.

However, when the Vision is based on the same technology as the vanila Zen, and the price difference just reflects adding on a screen, then yeah... I do expect the build quality to be similar, you fucking hack.

I know you're just trolling at this point, but it's fucking hysterical to watch you proselytize for the Zen Vision while calling everyone that owns an iPod a feckless fanboy. (which I don't)

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 26, 2006, 11:20 am

Zaelath wrote: However, when the Vision is based on the same technology as the vanila Zen, and the price difference just reflects adding on a screen, then yeah... I do expect the build quality to be similar, you fucking hack.

And you know this to be a fact? The same parts were used? Revisions? At least post about the same fucking model. There are complaints about the Zen Vision (as there are plenty about the iPod Video) If I want to be an ass like you, I could go scour the boards for people whining about their iPods. It would be pretty fucking lame to do that though.

Any asshole, besides you, knows that any product will get it's share of complaints. Check any product on Newegg's website and you'll find some bitchers. Try a little harder with your trolling sport. That's bush league stuff you're thowing out.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 26, 2006, 1:28 pm

That's ok Winnow, you whine enough about iPods for all of us. No need for you to sort through other posts. Just sort through your own, and when you can answer Zaelath's question post a response.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 26, 2006, 1:41 pm

WINNOW HAS REACHED CRITICAL MASS.

resorting to namecalling in your propagandist attempt to support some alternate digital media player you probably invested in...

FOR SHAME SIR.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 26, 2006, 2:30 pm

Truant wrote:WINNOW HAS REACHED CRITICAL MASS.

resorting to namecalling in your propagandist attempt to support some alternate digital media player you probably invested in...

FOR SHAME SIR.

Well Zaelath reached the namecalling stage first heh.

And since Zae is comparing two different models I guess it is OK to mention how shitty the Nanos are (the percentage of these that break is ridiculously high) and how easy these scratch and then say all iPods suck heh.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 26, 2006, 5:09 pm

stfu kelshara, you're not helping.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 26, 2006, 5:27 pm

Actually the Nano came up earlier in the thread when I was complaining about them being too small for people with large hands. So that's kind of keeping things on-topic

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 26, 2006, 5:57 pm

Yeah I have fairly large hands as well so I know what you mean. Plus they scratch like crazy and have some power failure issues.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 26, 2006, 7:21 pm

Kelshara wrote:
Truant wrote:WINNOW HAS REACHED CRITICAL MASS.

resorting to namecalling in your propagandist attempt to support some alternate digital media player you probably invested in...

FOR SHAME SIR.
Well Zaelath reached the namecalling stage first heh.

Umm, no, Winnow reached the "personal insult" stage first.

Winnow wrote:So you don't expect a Dodge Viper to perform better than a Dodge Neon? that explains things. : ) I'll reserve a place in the clueless asylum for you. : )

And since Zae is comparing two different models I guess it is OK to mention how shitty the Nanos are (the percentage of these that break is ridiculously high) and how easy these scratch and then say all iPods suck heh.

Yeah, you got me, I looked at a product with a known history to get some idea of the likely performance of a new, similar product.

You can pan iPods all you like, I think all these devices are essentially over-rated and have no religious or vested interest in any of them, I was merely curious as to how this new one would perform over time.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 26, 2006, 8:08 pm

And Zae was the name caller first with the "Fucking Hack" comment. Reserving a space in the clueless asylum isn't direct name calling you tards!

Boogahz: what questions? You keep asking me to answer the questions. I do.

The iPod mob is starting to lose their collective grip!

Let me line up the counter arguments vs my comments about the Zen Vision's benefits:

-iPods are cool (that's supposed to forgive their shortcomings I guess)
-iPods sound worse but who cares? Why would better sound matter on an audio device?
-iPod has washed out screen (but who cares if the Zen's is much better for the same price even if it helps with non video functions like daylight readability)
-comparing the Zen Vision to a host of other models that aren't the Apple Video iPod
-posting complaints about a different Zen model as if even one revision of the same model doesn't make a big difference sometimes, not to mention an entirely different model.
-iTunes Rocks! (whatever. I see no added value to iTunes over other services)

Um, yeah. Those are fabulous arguments guys. Just come out and admit it. "I use an iPod because of all the cool commercials and because they have a nice glossy finish to them. I am a slut to Apple's marketing department and will continue to buy whatever product they choose to release so I can use iTunes which I have been forced into by Apple not allowing other services in the spirit of free competition."

I'm an Apple hater for sure, but not a Zen fanboi. As with video cards, CPUs, etc. I buy the best product available.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 26, 2006, 9:11 pm

Winnow wrote:Boogahz: what questions? You keep asking me to answer the questions. I do.

The iPod mob is starting to lose their collective grip!

Let me line up the counter arguments vs my comments about the Zen Vision's benefits:

-iPods are cool (that's supposed to forgive their shortcomings I guess)
-iPods sound worse but who cares? Why would better sound matter on an audio device?
-iPod has washed out screen (but who cares if the Zen's is much better for the same price even if it helps with non video functions like daylight readability)
-comparing the Zen Vision to a host of other models that aren't the Apple Video iPod
-posting complaints about a different Zen model as if even one revision of the same model doesn't make a big difference sometimes, not to mention an entirely different model.
-iTunes Rocks! (whatever. I see no added value to iTunes over other services)

Read the fucking thread...DAMN. Nobody is arguing that iPods are better. YOU are arguing that yourself. You went on and on about how good the Zen was, and one person (Miir) questioning the need for an FM Tuner set you off into calling everyone fanbois from then on. You seem to think we are defending iPods when telling you to wipe the drool off of your chin.

I think Voro was the only one to even remotely "defend" Apple products with a comment about how they scale back features. Oh, then Siji made a comment about owning an iPod that did everything he wanted it to do without any third party software.

So, read your fucking thread again to see who resorted to name calling. You started calling people fanbois when they just asked about what the Zen was capable of.

Oh, and the question I asked you to answer was the one Zaelath posted about the longetivity of the player considering problems with Creative's prior releases.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 26, 2006, 9:50 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Oh, and the question I asked you to answer was the one Zaelath posted about the longetivity of the player considering problems with Creative's prior releases.

How the fuck am I supposed to answer that? This is a new product. I own two now. So far, all I can do is compare the two of them for quality control and keep posting here (as I always do with products I own) as time goes by.

Please tell my why our next elected president was a good choice Boogahz. Amazing! You can't do it? Maybe it's because you can't fucking make shit up that hasn't happened yet.

Try asking questions that are answerable. It might help!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » March 26, 2006, 9:51 pm

First off, I didn't ask the question, you just never answered it other than calling him names.

Second off, our next elected president will be great since it will not be GWBush

)

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 26, 2006, 10:24 pm

Winnow wrote:And Zae was the name caller first with the "Fucking Hack" comment. Reserving a space in the clueless asylum isn't direct name calling you tards!

In that case I'll reserve a place for you in the old trolls and other worthless cunts asylum

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 27, 2006, 3:03 am

Zaelath wrote:
Winnow wrote:And Zae was the name caller first with the "Fucking Hack" comment. Reserving a space in the clueless asylum isn't direct name calling you tards!
In that case I'll reserve a place for you in the old trolls and other worthless cunts asylum

Sounds good!

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » March 28, 2006, 11:20 am

Fuck you Hitler?

Syenye · Post by **Syenye** » March 28, 2006, 11:45 am

winnow, how is the durability of the screen? my ipod nano scratched the minute i looked at it.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » March 28, 2006, 1:03 pm

Syenye wrote:winnow, how is the durability of the screen? my ipod nano scratched the minute i looked at it.

It scratches just like an iPod. The only way to protect these portable devices is to get a cover for them. There are several out there. "Best Skin Ever", "Invisible Shield", etc.

I bought just the protective film for the screen and will apply that when I switch from the green to the white Zen in the next few days. I have the original shipping plastic screen cover on my green one still so the screen is perfect but that's not really meant to be permanent.