Chmee wrote:
I think question is currently far too open still to warrant any large-scale action to be taken at this time.
The reason logic is, as always, flawless in what it addresses.. The problem is once you have irrefutable evidence that there is warming and we're the cause, it will be unstoppable.
So I am just supposed to ignore the data and the debate on the matter and just accept your assertion that there is warming, we are the cause, and that it will be unstoppable if we wait? What do propose should be done about it if this is the case?
It's pretty much the assertion of every scientist in the field. You're happy to ignore all the data, or more correctly dismiss all the data because there's not enough of it. It's exactly the same rationale that smokers use because they want to keep smoking and science has shown a causal link between smoking and cancer, but not everyone that smokes gets cancer.
There will never be enough data to prove we need to stop shitting in our own nest for those that profit from it.
I propose we do nothing; I don't have, or intend to have, any kids.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
Cartalas wrote:Well I see it as we have no choice!! Change has to happen. We have noticed a real increase in freak storms but they do go in cycles. I mean shit how can you talk about Global Warming when its going to be -18 for the High on Friday I welcome Global Warming.
As a Society we do need to find a new way to create power the problem I see is that you cant please everyone. Solar Power and Wind power are both unreliable and the fear of atomic energy will always keep its potential down. With Fossil fuels everyone is happy they have their energy at any given time of the day but we all know this will run out.
The problem is us as individuals, Cities are installing Light Rail as we speak but are YOU or anyone else willing to ride them on a day to day basis? Are YOU willing to give that freedom up?
Automobiles are a status symbol as much as a means of transportation how do WE determine if we need a SUV? I mean one trip to the Hardware store driving a GEO Metro and you need 3 peices of 6'8' sheetrock makes you wonder. How do WE as a country try to tell other countries IE China to cut back on the Carbon emissions if we dont? I do think the United States is making a effort to control emmisions dont get me wrong but how do WE convey that to other countries.
So before you make a post about what WE or I should do think about what YOU are doing!!!
Is your thermostat set to a decent saving level?
Are YOU riding public transportation? Not once a week
Is your house Solar power? Or are you using Fossil fuel?
Wow, its actually the first post i seen from Cartalas that make sense .
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"
Zaelath wrote:It's pretty much the assertion of every scientist in the field.
That's pure bullshit.
You are ignoring the study that was just completed this past year over 200 years that showed no change in median temperature. People who support this global warming philosophy often leave out this study because it completely voids their paranoia bullshit scare tactic.
Climate changes occur on a timescale measured in thousands of years...not in lifetime or generational events. Global warming has been greatly touted by some...but is vastly over exaggerated.
The ebb and flow of micro climatic events has been happening for hundreds of thousands of years. The climate we are presently in now is just a short term (on the geologic scale) warm period between glacial advances (Ice ages).
This is a very dynamic planet...ever changing. There is a chaotic rhythm to our climate. We will not be around to see another ice age...but it will happen. Glaciation will occur again...the waxing and waning of ice over the northern hemisphere is occuring as we speak. We are in an interglacial period...but it will end someday in the distant future. You have to think about this on a scale that is hard for people to understand.
The people jumping on the "global warming" bandwagon and citing irrefutable evidence are way off base. Just look at the fossil record and geologic record and it is easy to see the warming/cooling periods...the glacial and interglacial periods throughout the geologic timeline.
Are we as a race harming the environment? I would say the answer to that is a definitive yes. However I do not believe that homo sapiens could do anything that would hasten our imminent demise. Every species has its time in the sun. Our greatest time may be yet to come...or maybe it has passed...either way nature has a way of self correction and I truly believe we have very little influence over that at all. We can poison our water, air and land with chemical, biological and radioactive contaminants...the earth will correct itself and make itself whole again even if it has to minimize our presence to do so.
As for what is happening in California? We have only been a nation for little more than 200 years. We build and settle in places that are not safe to do so. Forest fires occur without our help (even if some are manmade). Forest fires -> loss of vegetation -> heavy seasonal rain -> geologically active California -> Houses built where they should not be built = people dying in land/mudslides and others declaring that our entire weather system has been changed for the worse by human beings causing global warming. Poppycock. Those fires, land/mudslides have been occurring for tens of thousands of years...we just haven't been living right in the middle of it in our homes until recently.
And El Niño and La Niña have been occurring for longer than we have been around. This is the way nature works...we may seem to worsen or exacerbate it at times...but it will happen regardless of whether we are here or not.
That would be interesting to read, do you have any idea what its called Mid so I can check that out?
Suev, I am not thinking the Earth would not necessarily right itself, more whether we would be wiped in the process, and if there are ways to minimise that risk (maybe not in our lifetime, or our childrens, but the ones a little further down the line assuming we are being overly fearful thinking it will happen in the next century) ..
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:You are ignoring the study that was just completed this past year over 200 years that showed no change in median temperature.
You are right about that. Over the past 200 years, the mean temperature only raised about 0.5 Celcius.
But what you are not mentioning is that the thickness of the polar caps have been reduced by 40% which then increased the sea level by 10 to 20 cm.
Percipitation also increases every year at a rate of an extra 1%.
Zaelath wrote:It's pretty much the assertion of every scientist in the field.
That's pure bullshit.
You are ignoring the study that was just completed this past year over 200 years that showed no change in median temperature. People who support this global warming philosophy often leave out this study because it completely voids their paranoia bullshit scare tactic.
and i bet it is pure bullshit that CO2 emissions do any harm at all to the enviornment. wake up, even if you don't agree with all the studies, if you are a rational human being you must accept the fact that we are wasteful filthy creatures. Why wait for proof that our enviornment is fucked up to do something when we can do it right now.
My goal is to live forever. So far so good.
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin
Interesting new information to add to the discussion.
Over the last 15 years I've seen in increase in "we have a problem" expert opinion and a waning of opposition so I tend to agree something should be done.
But that's probably just the liberal biased media. You know how they are.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
All you green fuckers are gonna be strung up when we throttle back our emissions and the next ice age comes.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
masteen wrote:All you green fuckers are gonna be strung up when we throttle back our emissions and the next ice age comes.
Global warming can cause an ice age =)
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
Pure speculation. The only facts we know for certain from taking ice core samples is that ice ages keep happening, and that the warm spells between them are pretty short.
The drama of "You are destroying teh planet!" people always amuses me. It was like 20 degrees average hotter during the dinosaur's time, and there was shitloads of life on the planet.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Chmee wrote:
I think question is currently far too open still to warrant any large-scale action to be taken at this time.
The reason logic is, as always, flawless in what it addresses.. The problem is once you have irrefutable evidence that there is warming and we're the cause, it will be unstoppable.
So I am just supposed to ignore the data and the debate on the matter and just accept your assertion that there is warming, we are the cause, and that it will be unstoppable if we wait? What do propose should be done about it if this is the case?
It's pretty much the assertion of every scientist in the field. You're happy to ignore all the data, or more correctly dismiss all the data because there's not enough of it. It's exactly the same rationale that smokers use because they want to keep smoking and science has shown a causal link between smoking and cancer, but not everyone that smokes gets cancer.
As I state before, with some portions of the overall argument there is a fair amount of consensus. For the whole ball of wax, ie global warming is happening, its causes mostly or completely by us, and it will continue in the future as per the climate models and be largely determintal there is more contention over.
An article that goes over much of the same stuff I brought up in the earlier post.
masteen wrote:Pure speculation. The only facts we know for certain from taking ice core samples is that ice ages keep happening, and that the warm spells between them are pretty short.
The drama of "You are destroying teh planet!" people always amuses me. It was like 20 degrees average hotter during the dinosaur's time, and there was shitloads of life on the planet.
Well, duh. We're not interested in supporting a cold-blooded oxygen/methane breathing species however, we're looking at preserving humans.
No one thinks we're going to "destroy" the planet. Even a nuclear winter would be a temorary setback for the earth.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
Chmee wrote:
As I state before, with some portions of the overall argument there is a fair amount of consensus. For the whole ball of wax, ie global warming is happening, its causes mostly or completely by us, and it will continue in the future as per the climate models and be largely determintal there is more contention over.
An article that goes over much of the same stuff I brought up in the earlier post.
WTF? That article supports what I said, the only thing that author is says different is that as a scientist he has no place in making policy, he'd rather leave that to an economist.
Yes sir, I'm afraid you have a rather large rotweiller attached to your testicals. Jack, check his wallet to decide if we should remove the dog or the testicals.
It just seems like strange science to me; if you start peeing in the pond in the backyard and the fish start dying, do you invite some friends around to pee in it as well while you attempt to work out what's wrong with the fish? Or do you ask a plumber mate if it would be cheaper to fix your toilet, or continue peeing in the pond?
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
Zaelath wrote:
WTF? That article supports what I said, the only thing that author is says different is that as a scientist he has no place in making policy, he'd rather leave that to an economist.
No, it doesn't. He brings up pretty much the same caveats and areas where things are still being worked out as I did.
Point 3 is more contentious, as it relies on theories that assume that there is a so-called "positive feedback mechanism" in the atmosphere that will accelerate any warming trend. This is where the so-called skeptical scientists part company with the consensus. MIT Professor of Meteorology Richard Lindzen, for instance, is well-known for having advanced a credible, peer-reviewed theory that the Earth has an infrared "iris effect" that will produce negative feedbacks. Recent NASA research indicates that feedback mechanisms are not as pronounced as climate models suggest. This is again an area of ongoing scientific discovery, yet the genuine disagreement here would not have shown up as dissent in Oreskes' research as she actually defines the consensus as "that Earth's climate is heating up and human activities are part of the reason" -- in other words, she defines the consensus as points 1 and 2 of Connolley's definition, which, as we have seen, are not really in question.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
1. The earth is getting warmer (0.6 +/- 0.2° C in the past century; 0.1° C/decade over the last 30 years)
Ok, so at a rate of +.6 in a century (+/- .2) I'll need to start worrying about this when? I bet I still have to endure a fucking frost delay in 10,000 years.
Makora
Too often it seems it is the peaceful and innocent who are slaughtered. In this a lesson may be found that it may not be prudential to be either too peaceful or too innocent. One does not survive with wolves by becoming a sheep.
That's assuming that the feedback mechanisms are neither positive nor negative. There are valid theories for both, so until we gather more empirical evidence, we cannot say for certain which way it will work.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
....Over population, waste management, wild fire reduction and management ect. I think are much more short term problems we need to deal with more urgently. I do think we need to work even more on alternative sources aswell. I hate needing other countries for oil.
Btw if you lower forest fires or come up with better methods in controling em...or find out a way to filter out 1 volcano's ash after an eruption.....You'll do more for global warming than if we all stopped driving cars in the world for about 20 years. Lets figure out how to filter a a volcano eruption and that will do kyoto 1000x fold! Maybe make a giant Hepa filter!
Other than Dino times....What was the temp. like during the Mid-evil times?
Sirton wrote:....Over population, waste management, wild fire reduction and management ect. I think are much more short term problems we need to deal with more urgently. I do think we need to work even more on alternative sources aswell. I hate needing other countries for oil.
Btw if you lower forest fires or come up with better methods in controling em...or find out a way to filter out 1 volcano's ash after an eruption.....You'll do more for global warming than if we all stopped driving cars in the world for about 20 years. Lets figure out how to filter a a volcano eruption and that will do kyoto 1000x fold! Maybe make a giant Hepa filter!
Other than Dino times....What was the temp. like during the Mid-evil times?
Or you could read Tanc's link....
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
.
