Great Essay

[Zaelath]

Which part of carrying around a "HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN" banner written in foot high letters at a gay pride rally do you not see as shit stirring?

I've seen much worse than that at various places, and without anything violent happening.

Some people are able to tolerate the beliefs of others without resorting to violence. You know, it's called being civil.

Wait, let me say what I think you are saying... religion must be tolerant of homosexuality under threat of charges of Criminal Conspiracy, Ethnic intimidation, and Riot while homosexuals don't have to be tolerant of religion... I got it now.

Not at all, the moment a gay group sets up outside a Catholic church on a Sunday morning with "PRIESTS ARE PEDOPHILES" signs, I hope they all get taken away as well.

[Atokal]

Zaelath you have once again proven yourself to be an idiot of great proportions.

Freedom of Speech, to demonstrate in a peaceful manner is part of what makes Democracy and in particular the American brand so priceless. Under your view anyone who marched with signs at a republican convention saying BUSH SUCKS should be arrested and thrown in jail.

Shut the fuck up retard.

Fact is you hate Christians, and therefore it makes this ok

[Zaelath]

Zaelath you have once again proven yourself to be an idiot of great proportions.

Freedom of Speech, to demonstrate in a peaceful manner is part of what makes Democracy and in particular the American brand so priceless. Under your view anyone who marched with signs at a republican convention saying BUSH SUCKS should be arrested and thrown in jail.

Shut the fuck up retard.

Fact is you hate Christians, and therefore it makes this ok

I am a Christian you fucking retard, and I said I'm happy for it to apply evenly to fucktards of all races, creeds and religions that want to come to an organised event and start shit.

You don't even understand the concept of Christianity, and the people that were arrested are Christians in the same way that a pig in a yarmulka is kosher.

Fuck you Ajokal.

[Hesten]

Zaelath you have once again proven yourself to be an idiot of great proportions.

Freedom of Speech, to demonstrate in a peaceful manner is part of what makes Democracy and in particular the American brand so priceless. Under your view anyone who marched with signs at a republican convention saying BUSH SUCKS should be arrested and thrown in jail.

Shut the fuck up retard.

Fact is you hate Christians, and therefore it makes this ok

Finally Atokal got it, whee.
YES, if some democrats decided to walk along a republican convension, with Bush Suck signs, singing anti-bush songs, they SHOULD be asked by the police to leave, and if they dont want to leave, and keep disturbing the republicans convention, they SHOULD be arrested for disturbing the convention.
If the democrats decide to make a planned Anti-Bush demostration, get the permits for it, and hold it, EXACTLY the same should apply for whatever troublemakers who wanna show up with "Liberal Pussies" signs.

I think everyone agree that the charges on those christians were way overboard, personally i dont even care if they get charged at all, imo it was a case of getting troublemakers out of a potentially dangerous situation, if the police feel their actions demand charges, so be it, i cant judge that, but they should have been removed just like they did get.


The key to all this, are as you yourself say, a PEACEFUL manner. If there is a chance of the people who are there because they planned the event and got the permit, and the protesters, its NOT a peaceful situation any more, and the police should interfere, which they did at first by asking the christians to go away, which they ignored. They they had to arrest them to defuse the situation.

It dont matter if the persons arrested for making problems are calling themselves, christians, moslims, republicans, democrats, KKK, nazis, homemothers agains abortions, or even old mans pedophilia club, IF they show up for the SOLE reason to make problems, they should be removed.

Had the cristians decided to do their singing rally 2 blocks over, or the day after, it would have been perfectly within their rights, and should be honored. And if they gays would go disturb the cristians singing rally that day, THEY should of course be removed.

[Xzion]

Zaelath you have once again proven yourself to be an idiot of great proportions.

Freedom of Speech, to demonstrate in a peaceful manner is part of what makes Democracy and in particular the American brand so priceless. Under your view anyone who marched with signs at a republican convention saying BUSH SUCKS should be arrested and thrown in jail.

Shut the fuck up retard.

Fact is you hate Christians, and therefore it makes this ok

Finally Atokal got it, whee.
YES, if some democrats decided to walk along a republican convension, with Bush Suck signs, singing anti-bush songs, they SHOULD be asked by the police to leave, and if they dont want to leave, and keep disturbing the republicans convention, they SHOULD be arrested for disturbing the convention.
If the democrats decide to make a planned Anti-Bush demostration, get the permits for it, and hold it, EXACTLY the same should apply for whatever troublemakers who wanna show up with "Liberal Pussies" signs.

I think everyone agree that the charges on those christians were way overboard, personally i dont even care if they get charged at all, imo it was a case of getting troublemakers out of a potentially dangerous situation, if the police feel their actions demand charges, so be it, i cant judge that, but they should have been removed just like they did get.


The key to all this, are as you yourself say, a PEACEFUL manner. If there is a chance of the people who are there because they planned the event and got the permit, and the protesters, its NOT a peaceful situation any more, and the police should interfere, which they did at first by asking the christians to go away, which they ignored. They they had to arrest them to defuse the situation.

It dont matter if the persons arrested for making problems are calling themselves, christians, moslims, republicans, democrats, KKK, nazis, homemothers agains abortions, or even old mans pedophilia club, IF they show up for the SOLE reason to make problems, they should be removed.

Had the cristians decided to do their singing rally 2 blocks over, or the day after, it would have been perfectly within their rights, and should be honored. And if they gays would go disturb the cristians singing rally that day, THEY should of course be removed.

who will determine if there there to cause trouble?

if they demonstrate peacefully, even with a violent or predjutice message it should be allowed, i have to side with atokal on this issue
of course if the demonstration is causing a traffic issue or what not it should be re arranged, but not disallowed...and if violence occurs then it needs to end forcefully of course

becouse to disalow this is a direct violation of freedom of speech...although i can hardly understand atokals argument for defending a religious fanatics freedom of speech on the street while his party works to promote censorship and ban all "indecent" actions of free speech...hell if george bush's cronies had it there way i doubt half of the video games you play would be legal

[Mak]

I am a Christian you fucking retard...

In what way are you a Christian?

[Atokal]

Finally Atokal got it, whee.
YES, if some democrats decided to walk along a republican convension, with Bush Suck signs, singing anti-bush songs, they SHOULD be asked by the police to leave, and if they dont want to leave, and keep disturbing the republicans convention, they SHOULD be arrested for disturbing the convention.
If the democrats decide to make a planned Anti-Bush demostration, get the permits for it, and hold it, EXACTLY the same should apply for whatever troublemakers who wanna show up with "Liberal Pussies" signs.

I think everyone agree that the charges on those christians were way overboard, personally i dont even care if they get charged at all, imo it was a case of getting troublemakers out of a potentially dangerous situation, if the police feel their actions demand charges, so be it, i cant judge that, but they should have been removed just like they did get.

And you still don't get it. People have the right to demonstrate peacefully. I didn't read anywhere that these Christians had struck anyone, spit on anyone or exhibited any violent actions whatsoever. Now using your imagination try and picture a world where peaceful demonstrating can get you put in jail. HOLY SHIT it is China, no wait it is a Central American country where people who voice their opinions are taken and never heard from again. It is in the acceptance of this "law enforcement" that you open the door to totaltarian rule.
So tell me again how this is a good thing you jackass.

The key to all this, are as you yourself say, a PEACEFUL manner. If there is a chance of the people who are there because they planned the event and got the permit, and the protesters, its NOT a peaceful situation any more, and the police should interfere, which they did at first by asking the christians to go away, which they ignored. They they had to arrest them to defuse the situation.

It dont matter if the persons arrested for making problems are calling themselves, christians, moslims, republicans, democrats, KKK, nazis, homemothers agains abortions, or even old mans pedophilia club, IF they show up for the SOLE reason to make problems, they should be removed.

Had the cristians decided to do their singing rally 2 blocks over, or the day after, it would have been perfectly within their rights, and should be honored. And if they gays would go disturb the cristians singing rally that day, THEY should of course be removed.

I fear my understanding of freedom is much deeper than yours. I could not live in a country where speaking ones mind or demonstrating in opposition to something you feel strongly about is a jailable offence.

To each their own I suppose.

[Zaelath]

I am a Christian you fucking retard...

In what way are you a Christian?

Here's the clue, a Christian is a follower of Christ.

The new testament, you know, the teachings of Christ, superceed the old testament. He ratified the Ten Commandments, adding one of his own, but the rest is pretty much obliterated, certainly sod all from Leviticus (the gay bashers champion of choice) makes it through the cleansing. Hence, your "Homosexuality is Sin" chums are not Christians.

Now, if you want to follow Leviticus, you go right ahead, call yourself a Jew, call yourself a Levite, but leave Christ the fuck out of it.

Now, being that Jesus is God, and one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" people who do things against Jesus teaching and invoke his name are going to burn. Enjoy.

Of course, you may not see the obvious conflict between claiming to be doing His good work while being a bigoted crusader, that would be your problem and it's not mine to enlighten you.

[Zaelath]

And you still don't get it. People have the right to demonstrate peacefully. I didn't read anywhere that these Christians had struck anyone, spit on anyone or exhibited any violent actions whatsoever. Now using your imagination try and picture a world where peaceful demonstrating can get you put in jail. HOLY SHIT it is China, no wait it is a Central American country where people who voice their opinions are taken and never heard from again. It is in the acceptance of this "law enforcement" that you open the door to totaltarian rule.
So tell me again how this is a good thing you jackass.

Yeah, preventing a few idiots from causing a riot is the thin edge of the totalitarian dictatorship wedge. Guantanamo Bay however is a holiday camp for towel heads and nothing to worry about at all.

[Mak]

I am a Christian you fucking retard...

In what way are you a Christian?

Here's the clue, a Christian is a follower of Christ.

The new testament, you know, the teachings of Christ, superceed the old testament. He ratified the Ten Commandments, adding one of his own, but the rest is pretty much obliterated, certainly sod all from Leviticus (the gay bashers champion of choice) makes it through the cleansing. Hence, your "Homosexuality is Sin" chums are not Christians.

Now, if you want to follow Leviticus, you go right ahead, call yourself a Jew, call yourself a Levite, but leave Christ the fuck out of it.

Now, being that Jesus is God, and one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" people who do things against Jesus teaching and invoke his name are going to burn. Enjoy.

Of course, you may not see the obvious conflict between claiming to be doing His good work while being a bigoted crusader, that would be your problem and it's not mine to enlighten you.

Thanks for the definition of what a Christian is, but that didn't answer my question. My question is what makes YOU a Christian. I ask this because, well, you sure don't seem like any real Christian I've ever known. If you are indeed a Christian, you seem to me to be a poor one, and perhaps you could best serve your god by not making such a claim. If you ask yourself "WWJD?", I certainly don't see him laying down a profanity laden rant on a message board two or three times a day. I just thought it a bit...odd...that you make the claim of being a Christian in the very same sentence in which you called someone a "fucking retard".

Also, as to the latter part of your response, I guess you have me confused with someone else, as I've never- not a single time- claimed to be any sort of a religious person, nor have I ever made the claim to be doing "His good work". Nor, since you mentioned it, have I ever once made any sort of anti-gay post on this board. If simply being conservative- albiet a moderate one- qualifies me as a "bigoted crusader" in your eyes, well, I suppose that's your problem and not mine.

(EDIT: Fixed a typo.)

[Zaelath]

Thanks for the definition of what a Christian is, but that didn't answer my question. My question is what makes YOU a Christian. I ask this because, well, you sure don't seem like any real Christian I've ever known. If you are indeed a Christian, you seem to me to be a poor one, and perhaps you could best serve your god by not making such a claim. If you ask yourself "WWJD?", I certainly don't see him laying down a profanity laden rant on a message board two or three times a day. I just thought it a bit...odd...that you make the claim of being a Christian in the very same sentence in which you called someone a "fucking retard".

Well, Mak, that would be because you're an American. You confuse profanity with sin, but see no problem at all in wholesale slaughter of another people to "make you feel safer". Being a Christian isn't about wearing a white shirt and polite conversation over tea and cookies. I don't claim to be pious, I claim to be a Christian, I think there's your main confusion.

I'm also not vain enough to think that I'm perfect and can possibly do the WWJD thing. That's another American ideal that I had never even heard of before it filtered into popular culture. So, when talking with Ajokal I talk in terms he can understand, fuck, retard, poopie. You get what you serve, and only in America is fuck a profanity to most people in the "irreverent" sense you want to give it to back up your argument.

Also, as to the latter part of your response, I guess you have me confused with someone else, as I've never- not a single time- claimed to be any sort of a religious person, nor have I ever made the claim to be doing "His good work". Nor, since you mentioned it, have I ever once made any sort of anti-gay post on this board. If simply being conservative- albiet a moderate one- qualifies me as a "bigoted crusader" in your eyes, well, I suppose that's your problem and not mine.

(EDIT: Fixed a typo.)

You don't have to claim to be religious and I wasn't talking about "you" anyway, I was talking generally about evangelicals and the rest that do just a little more than "ranting" on a messageboard to try and mess with people's lives in a negative way because they're scared of them. I might not be a perfect Christian, but I'm a damn sight more aligned to his politics than they, or for that matter, conservatives are.

That said, if you're a conservative that means you voted for Bush, yes? That means you voted for his crusade in Iraq, no? Based on what?

[Atokal]

And you still don't get it. People have the right to demonstrate peacefully. I didn't read anywhere that these Christians had struck anyone, spit on anyone or exhibited any violent actions whatsoever. Now using your imagination try and picture a world where peaceful demonstrating can get you put in jail. HOLY SHIT it is China, no wait it is a Central American country where people who voice their opinions are taken and never heard from again. It is in the acceptance of this "law enforcement" that you open the door to totaltarian rule.
So tell me again how this is a good thing you jackass.

Yeah, preventing a few idiots from causing a riot is the thin edge of the totalitarian dictatorship wedge. Guantanamo Bay however is a holiday camp for towel heads and nothing to worry about at all.

Umm yeah nice segway. WTF does Guantanamo bay have to do with the price of tea in China?

At what point do you figure that demonstration was turning into a riot, quite a jump from placards to riots don't you think?

You are too stunned to speak to on this topic.

[Zaelath]

Umm yeah nice segway. WTF does Guantanamo bay have to do with the price of tea in China?

At what point do you figure that demonstration was turning into a riot, quite a jump from placards to riots don't you think?

Guantanamo is the Americans biggest monument to fear and loathing, and their willingness to give up all the rights and freedoms if you present it to them in the right way. You really think a "move along" law for protestors is worse than detention without representation or trial for years on end? Amusing.

They were charged with riot, I have to assume people there with experience suspected that the situation if left alone could have devolved. Of course, I'm not omnipotent, so perhaps sitting at your computer you know everything that was being done and said and for gosh darn sure there wasn't goung to be trouble. (Do you think Gays can't be "butch"? Throw a few punches?)

You are too stunned to speak to on this topic.

The hell does that mean? You can't even offer more than your completely biased opinion, I might admit to some opinion, but they're based on more than "The so-called Christians must be the good guys, we're always the good guys... right? RIGHT?!"

[Atokal]

Umm yeah nice segway. WTF does Guantanamo bay have to do with the price of tea in China?

At what point do you figure that demonstration was turning into a riot, quite a jump from placards to riots don't you think?

Guantanamo is the Americans biggest monument to fear and loathing, and their willingness to give up all the rights and freedoms if you present it to them in the right way. You really think a "move along" law for protestors is worse than detention without representation or trial for years on end? Amusing.

They were charged with riot, I have to assume people there with experience suspected that the situation if left alone could have devolved. Of course, I'm not omnipotent, so perhaps sitting at your computer you know everything that was being done and said and for gosh darn sure there wasn't goung to be trouble. (Do you think Gays can't be "butch"? Throw a few punches?)

You are too stunned to speak to on this topic.

The hell does that mean? You can't even offer more than your completely biased opinion, I might admit to some opinion, but they're based on more than "The so-called Christians must be the good guys, we're always the good guys... right? RIGHT?!"

Kindly point out which of those Afghani folks are American Citizens?
I am not defending the action of the USA in that situation. However, citizens of the USA are entitled to those rights.

I also have not defended the "message" those Christians were touting, but I sure as hell am defending their RIGHT to say it.

[Zaelath]

Kindly point out which of those Afghani folks are American Citizens?
I am not defending the action of the USA in that situation. However, citizens of the USA are entitled to those rights.

I also have not defended the "message" those Christians were touting, but I sure as hell am defending their RIGHT to say it.

There was at least one American detained (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na ... ities.html), as well as detainees from 30 other countries. The US is quite happy to strip the rights of citizenship if you're classed as an enemy combatant, which they do so quite loosely, particularly loosely enough to avoid the Geneva Convention.

Really, on scale, how is "indefinite detention" without trial or representation not more worrying than charging people (the cases will likely not hold up, and at least they get a trial) so they can be moved from the scene and avoid what the police expected was a situtation that would eventually escalate into a real problem?

Nice backpedal too... I note you don't defend my right to speak, what were your words again? "Shut the fuck up" I believe.

If you're going to make a principled stand, it's best to maintain the principle for everyone, else it's pretty clear where your bias is.

[Mak]

Well, Mak, that would be because you're an American. You confuse profanity with sin, but see no problem at all in wholesale slaughter of another people to "make you feel safer". Being a Christian isn't about wearing a white shirt and polite conversation over tea and cookies. I don't claim to be pious, I claim to be a Christian, I think there's your main confusion.

I hope you're not trying to assert that non-American Christians think it's ok to swear, because I know for a fact that's not true. Nor are Europeans necessarily less prudish about profanity either- I use to date an English girl that would throw stuff at me when I swore. There are people all over the world that think it's impolite to swear.

I'm curious as to why you would claim to be a Christian if you apparently don't hold to many of the fundamental tenets of Christianity. To me that's like claiming to be a vegetarian while still eating meat. Granted, many people make claims of piety and aren't necessarily nice people, but you haven't seemed the type to be proud of a religious background and I was surprised to read your claim.

... You get what you serve, and only in America is fuck a profanity to most people in the "irreverent" sense you want to give it to back up your argument.

Again, I tend to disagree with you on this point.

You don't have to claim to be religious and I wasn't talking about "you" anyway, I was talking generally about evangelicals and the rest that do just a little more than "ranting" on a messageboard to try and mess with people's lives in a negative way because they're scared of them. I might not be a perfect Christian, but I'm a damn sight more aligned to his politics than they, or for that matter, conservatives are.

That said, if you're a conservative that means you voted for Bush, yes? That means you voted for his crusade in Iraq, no? Based on what?

Crusade? Semantics. Regardless, while Bush may be a Christian, he is also President- and he has the duty of protecting America from what he and a majority of people believe is a realistic threat to national security.

[Zaelath]

I hope you're not trying to assert that non-American Christians think it's ok to swear, because I know for a fact that's not true. Nor are Europeans necessarily less prudish about profanity either- I use to date an English girl that would throw stuff at me when I swore. There are people all over the world that think it's impolite to swear.

I think your actions are more important than the words you use to describe them, and yes, Americans are the among most hypocritically prudish people in the world. Swearing and nudity are commonplace on "network" television in Australia and Europe. "Fuck" is far less emotive/offensive than "Homosexuality is Sin", but you'd have a shit fit if someone attempted to use their freedom of speech with an "anal fucking is sin" sign.

I'm curious as to why you would claim to be a Christian if you apparently don't hold to many of the fundamental tenets of Christianity. To me that's like claiming to be a vegetarian while still eating meat. Granted, many people make claims of piety and aren't necessarily nice people, but you haven't seemed the type to be proud of a religious background and I was surprised to read your claim.

Which tenets are you thinking of? Where is the "thou shall not use naughty language" commandment?

I may have slipped occasionally, but I don't recall swearing at anyone here first. If someone wants to street fight, then sure, I'll adjust to that.

Oh, and Pride is a sin, one of the seven deadly ones actually. It's a bit like the fact that Australians love their country every bit as fiercly as Americans love the US, we just don't have to get in everyone's face about it every five minutes. Could probably say the same for most countries.

... You get what you serve, and only in America is fuck a profanity to most people in the "irreverent" sense you want to give it to back up your argument.

Fuck is without doubt a vulgar word, but I doubt most people think it's an offense against God, except for perhaps in the US. Australia and Europe again, predominantly Christian nations, both allow it's use on television. (pardon my mixed tense, I realise Europe is not one nation)

Again, I tend to disagree with you on this point.

That said, if you're a conservative that means you voted for Bush, yes? That means you voted for his crusade in Iraq, no? Based on what?

Crusade? Semantics. Regardless, while Bush may be a Christian, he is also President- and he has the duty of protecting America from what he and a majority of people believe is a realistic threat to national security.

Really? And yet the man himself called it a crusade until his spin-doctors corrected his language.

What do you base this realistic threat to national security? Even Bush isn't trying to say Saddam was any threat to you any more. C'mon you can do better than that.

Now, given I've been nice enough to yet again address your queries, perhaps you could actually answer some of the questions I've posed instead of rhetorically ignoring them, or perhaps you coach politicians for a living =)

[Aruman]

Update...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=42905

In what is being hailed as a victory for free speech, a judge in Philadelphia today dismissed all criminal charges against four Christians who were arrested for evangelizing at an outdoor homosexual event.

Judge Pamela Dembe of the Philadelphia County Court of Common Pleas dismissed the charges, saying that she found no basis whatsoever for any of them.

Good to see judges upholding what Freedom of Speech means. Sounds like these people might sue the city.