Great Essay

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » December 24, 2004, 3:15 pm

Why A Jew Supports Christian America
By Don Feder
December 23, 2004

In America today, Christians have many enemies and few friends. I would like to be counted among the latter.

It might appear odd that, as a Jew, I would support Christians and the concept of Christian America. Once upon a time, it would have seemed equally strange for a Christian to call himself a Zionist.

But the world is forever and relentlessly changing. As a member of one of the most persecuted minorities in history, I can relate to what Christians are experiencing in the first decade of the 21st century.

In America today, devout Christians are rapidly assuming the roles traditionally assigned to Jews during the long centuries of exile: scapegoats, objects of ridicule, the focal point of conspiracy theories, and the despised "other."

Do I exaggerate? Consider the following examples (culled from the daily news) of what can only be called an anti-Christian onslaught:
According to a just-released survey by the Parents Television Council, portrayals of religion (mostly Christianity) on prime time television are overwhelmingly negative. On NBC, there are 9.5 negative representations of faith for every positive depiction. Christians as buffoons or villains has become a staple of comedies and dramas.
Mel Gibson’s The Passion was the most vilified film of 2004 – as well as one of the most popular. But while the cultural elite found this reverent treatment of Jesus ominous, movies that mock Christianity (such as Saved) or those that treat Christian clerics as sinister figures (like King Arthur) hardly raise an eyebrow.
Ron Howard will direct and Tom Hanks star in the screen adaptation of The Da Vinci Code, in which Jesus and Mary Magdalene have a child and a Catholic order commits murder to cover up the truth. This is a far cry from The Greatest Story Ever Told and The Song of Bernadette – but typical of Hollywood’s treatment of Christianity today.
Whenever Christians raise their heads, someone starts taking pot shots. For instance, the Air Force Academy is cracking down on what it considers aggressive proselytizing. Among other allegedly offensive behavior, some Christian cadets had the audacity to suggest that their squadron see The Passion of the Christ as a group. If that weren’t enough, cadets are including Bible quotes at the bottom of their e-mails. Mandatory sensitivity training is underway. What about a little sensitivity for future officers of a religious bent and an acknowledgement of the fact that, under fire, our military personnel don’t find inspiration from the latest misinterpretation of the First Amendment?
A double standard is evolving where public acknowledgement of other faiths is allowed, but not Christianity. Bar Harbor Islands, Florida, decorates its lampposts with Stars of David to commemorate Hanukkah and permits a local synagogue to set up a 14-foot menorah in a prominent public place, but won’t allow public display of a Nativity scene. For several years, New York’s public schools have put up menorahs and Moslem crescents during the holiday season, but not mangers – even though 85 percent of the American people are self-identified Christians.
For the third straight year, Planned Parenthood (the nation’s largest abortion provider) is mocking a sacred season for Christians by selling greeting cards with the message, "Choice on Earth" – suggesting perhaps that, for Mary and Joseph, Jesus was an option?
More and more colleges and universities are refusing to recognize Christian groups for supposedly violating the school’s non-discrimination policy, by declining to admit non-Christians and homosexuals. The choice thus presented to Christian students is: renounce the principals of your faith, or forego university support.
In Philadelphia, four Christians, members of a group called Repent America, are being prosecuted for quietly praying and reading Bible verses at a gay celebration, funded by the city. (This notwithstanding that the Christians obeyed police orders and remained at all time peaceful, even while being accosted by militant homosexuals.) The four – ages 17 to 72 – are charged with a variety of misdemeanors and felonies (including criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, and riot). If convicted, they could face 47 years in prison, essentially for practicing their religion. The American Civil Liberties Union – so concerned with the free-speech rights of pornographers and the procedural rights of terrorists – has yet to be heard from here.
The attitude of the news media (which regularly refers to evangelicals as "fundamentalists" – with the implication of fanaticism and a tendency toward violence) can best be summed up by a 1994 Washington Post story which described conservative Christians as ‘poor, uneducated and easy to command." Since the election, some liberal commentators have taken to referring to the red states as "Jesus-land."
The ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State are on a search-and-destroy mission to purge Christian symbols from public places. Targets include Ten Commandments monuments in courthouses, crosses in public parks, the cross in the Los Angeles County seal and a quote by Theodore Roosevelt ("The true Christian is the true citizen") on a wall in the Riverside, California, courthouse – not to mention the 9th Circuit Appeals Court’s attempt to take "one nation under God" out of the Pledge of Allegiance.

How can anyone with a basic sense of fairness not be outraged by this?

In the face of a political pogrom, concerned Jews must rally to the defense of our Christian neighbors.

My support for Christian America is in part based on gratitude. I am exceedingly grateful for Christian support for Israel, especially from the evangelical community.

A generation ago, the term Christian Zionist was an oxymoron. Today, American Christians are a mainstay of public support for Israel. Without their help, U.S. Middle East policy would be far less sympathetic to the Jewish state – a fact recognized by every Israeli prime minister for the past 20 years, all of whom have assiduously courted the Christian Right.

I’m also grateful to Christians for America. I love this country and can’t even begin to imagine what my life would be like if I wasn’t an American.

It’s a truth seldom acknowledged: Christians created America.

Those settlers who most influenced the course of our nation (including the Pilgrims and Puritans) were committed Christians, who – significantly – drew their inspiration from the Hebrew Bible.

Overwhelmingly, the Founding Fathers were men of faith. Alexis de Tocqueville, that prescient observer of our infant Republic, said the genius of America is found not in her commerce, her schools, or her democratic institutions, but in her churches, with "pulpits aflame with righteousness."

Throughout the course of our national existence, America has been led by individuals guided by Christian principles – from George Washington to George W. Bush.

From Bunker Hill to Gettysburg, and Iwo Jima to Iraq, the men who’ve taken up arms to defend America overwhelmingly have been Christians. Count the number of crosses at the U.S. cemetery at Normandy or contemplate the pictures of young Marines praying in the field in Mosul.

America took in my immigrant grandparents, allowed them to practice their ancient faith in peace, permitted their children and grandchildren to achieve a degree of material comfort found nowhere else on earth, and to enjoy citizenship rights that Jews have rarely known during the 2,000 years of Diaspora – for all of which I am indebted to Christians.

Moreover, I believe America’s survival rests with Christians. This nation was founded on biblical morality and grew to greatness with that code. Without it, America cannot long endure.

Christians are manning the barricades in the battle to preserve our nation’s spiritual heritage, represented by the expression "The Judeo-Christian ethic."

If America isn’t one nation under God, what will it be? One nation under a culture that produces 1.4 million violent crimes (murders, rapes and assaults), 1.3 million abortions, and one million new cases of venereal disease each year?

Will we have liberty and equality for all (again, distinctly biblical concepts), or will we be one nation under a welfare state whose principal products are a crushing tax burden, fatherless families, and multi-generational dependency?

Will America be a nation of strong families – where children are nurtured and parents respected – or the me-as-the-sum-of-all-things society into which we are rapidly devolving? The sacrifices required to keep a nation together are based on faith, not calculations of personal gain.

This is what Christianity gave – and continues to give – America.

Finally, I believe the safety of American Jews lies with Christian America.

In secular Europe, Jews are beaten in the streets. Our college campuses – dogmatically liberal – have turned into snake pits of anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. The news media, which are so hostile to Christianity, are equally antagonistic toward Israel. (Christians aren’t the only ones in desperate need of allies.)

There is a dark force spreading across the globe, rivaling the march of fascism in the '30s and '40s, and of communism is the postwar era. Call it Islamic fundamentalism, militant Islam, Jihadism, or what you will, it is animated by a burning hatred of Christians and Jews. The same toxic creed that murders Jews in Israel and attacks Jews in Europe, kills Christians in Africa, the Middle East, the Balkans, and Asia – and members of both faiths (and others, including their own) in America.

As never before in our two millennia of joint history, Jews and Christians need each other. The antithesis of the Judeo-Christian ethic isn’t a world-weary disbelief, but modern paganism – where victims are sacrificed to new gods, deities spawned by ideology but every bit as bloody as the gods of old – or a world colored Islamic green.

For all of the above – and because I am bound by honor and conscience to do so – as a Jew, I stand with Christian America.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » December 24, 2004, 5:41 pm

Cool then all the nutcase far right wing christians can move to Israel.

Now if we can get the far left nutcase Liberals to move to Canada the US will be sane.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » December 24, 2004, 7:10 pm

This person is trying to sound like he's reaching across borders to join on the side of Christian America? He was there already. Christian America is another way of saying conservative religious america, and thats what this author is, and it shines through brightly. Maybe thousands of years of religious prosecution towards indigenous peoples isn't enough to shine a negative light on major religions...I think it is. There are more than enough reasons to dislike or even hate these religions. The most pathetic thing is how christians and jews seperate themselves completely from Islam, when they are all part of the same fucking problem: mass religion.

Sure great things have come from religion, but horrible, disgusting, evil things have came from it as well and don't be suprised that the horrible, disgusting, evil things overshadow any good that your religion may do. I think most people, even those who say they hate christianity understand completely that there are great christians who do great things out there, but when you look at the mainstream christian politics for isntance, it only shows ignorance, distrust, and hate towards people different from them.

I live between 2 christian families. One family is completely open-minded, nature-loving, and understanding of other religions, even welcomes concepts of Buddhism and Hinduism into their christian household...

On the other side of my home, lives the other christian extreme and there's a reason my entire neighborhood hates them...they are just assholes, who, when I was younger, called my parents and said that I was surely on the path to hell because I played "doctor" with their daughter once and said to my parents that they need to go to church or they may go to hell also. This family also spoke openly against the other neighbors I mentioned, because they "were drifting away from god and welcoming heathen(i assume they meant buddhist) beliefs into their family"...

There you can see two sides of religion, one passes it's love of religion on to others through total compassion, forgiveness and is openminded to other spiritual beliefs, the other represents ignorance and passes their religion on by fear. I am lucky enough to live in an area where most christians are more like the first family I mentioned, but go to the south and it is the other type you would get(with exceptions of course).

If you are a christian that belives all non-christians are going to hell, then you are exactly the type of christian that many people hate, and you deserve it.

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » December 24, 2004, 7:44 pm

I think someone needs to be enlightened

Atokal, just shutup already.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » December 24, 2004, 9:18 pm

Another example of when taking the party line is a bad idea....

I'm a republican... yet... I despise the isreal/palestine situation and our pro-isreal stance in it... Even though I'm not there and really don't have to deal with it, I'm fucking tired of it. Isreal, in typical religious fanaticism, keeps the region at war, at desperation.

Draw a fuckin line in the sand, agree on the line, and stay the fuck on your side. end it already. fuck isreal.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 24, 2004, 9:29 pm

I can understand what he is saying because it is happening here in the City I live in.

As an example:

Nativity scenes not being allowed for display on public (government) property, but other religions are openly welcomed to put up displays significant to their religions.

I agree that there is some discrimination going on. When they say there should be a separation between church and state, it should apply to all religions.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » December 25, 2004, 2:45 pm

Well here's my Jewish-Christian-Quaker-Agnostic perspective on Christmas and that article:

I work in a relatively small town in Eastern Pennsylvania. The intersection of Main Street and Fourth Street creates the center of the town. There is a 40 foot Christmas tree that stands at this intersection, replete with Christmas lights and ornaments and a star on top. In front of this tree, directly facing main street, is a life-size nativity scene, complete with Mary Joseph Jesus Angels Wise Men and Camels. The entire town is decorated in red and green. There are no stars of David. There are no menorahs. There are absolutely no decorations relating to Hannukah or the holidays of any other religion.

All the towns surrounding this one are virtually identical.

So where is the reverse discrimination? Where is the double standard? You can cry and whine about isolated cases all you want, but the fact is that almost every town in this entire fucking country is removed from the politically correct bullshit that you all seem so concerned about.

When I walk out the front door of my place of employment, a life-size plastic Jesus stares me in the face. People constantly ask me what I'm doing for Christmas, what my tree is like, where I'm going to church. I don't like explaining that I don't celebrate Christmas, don't own a Christmas tree, and have never been to church in my life. The fact that Jesus stares at me when I exit the building is a constant reminder of my outcast status.

If you think that December is chilly normally, try explaining to just about anyone that life-size statues of Jesus in public places paid for by public money make you uncomfortable. It'll get a lot colder pretty damn fast.

Now I'm not saying that we should change anything. I don't want Jewish symbols pasted all over town, nor do I particularly care if the Christian symbolism is removed. All I'm saying is that this attitude that Christian's are oppressed at Christmas and must fight to maintain their freedom to enjoy Christmas and escape the repression of the Jewish elite is fucking idiotic. For this entire month, people like me wander the streets feeling distant and disconnected from society. Parents have to explain to their children why they don't participate in the event that all the other kids are so excited about. Kids have to come to grips with the fact that they miss out on the fun. So take a break from your fucking whining to enjoy your holiday.

The article sucked too.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 25, 2004, 3:33 pm

Sueven wrote:So take a break from your fucking whining to enjoy your holiday.

The article sucked too.

Merry Christmas everyone.

I said I see it happening and the only thing I said is there should be a separation for all religions.

Two examples stand out from that article:

Bar Harbor Islands, Florida, decorates its lampposts with Stars of David to commemorate Hanukkah and permits a local synagogue to set up a 14-foot menorah in a prominent public place, but won’t allow public display of a Nativity scene.

Far from being unbiased, and as I said, the same thing is happening where I live.

Your situation is no better Sueven.

In Philadelphia, four Christians, members of a group called Repent America, are being prosecuted for quietly praying and reading Bible verses at a gay celebration, funded by the city. (This notwithstanding that the Christians obeyed police orders and remained at all time peaceful, even while being accosted by militant homosexuals.) The four – ages 17 to 72 – are charged with a variety of misdemeanors and felonies (including criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, and riot).

If in fact those 4 are being charged as described for what the author of the article described as 'quietly praying and reading Bible verses at a gay celebration', you cannot deny that there is something very wrong about the charges being brought against those 4.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 25, 2004, 3:57 pm

I would very much like to see the news article on those 4 people getting arested. Something sounds fishy about the way he said it.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 25, 2004, 5:30 pm

Here ya go-

http://www.covenantnews.com/repent041012.htm

Christians Arrested
Eleven Christians Arrested, Jailed, and Charged
Under Hate Crimes Legislation

To: National Desk

PHILADELPHIA, PA. Oct. 11/Covenant News Wire Service/ -- On Sunday, October 10, 2004, eleven Christians with the Philadelphia-based Repent America were arrested, jailed, and charged under hate crimes legislation during an evangelistic outreach at the annual "OutFest" homosexual pride event held in the public streets of Philadelphia.

The six men and five women representing Repent America approached the event and were immediately confronted with unlawful opposition by a group of homosexuals. This group, the “Pink Angels”, was formed by homosexual attorney Chuck Volz, a senior adviser to Philly Pride Presents, organizers of the annual OutFest event which receives $22,500 yearly from the City of Philadelphia. The “Pink Angels” blocked access to Repent America by forming a human chain, refusing to allow the Christians to walk down the public sidewalk. Police intervened shortly thereafter, escorting Repent America through the human blockade.

While on the public sidewalk and street inside the event, Repent America began to open-air preach with the use of Scripture banners, and to distribute Gospel literature, as members of the "Pink Angels" blew loud whistles and carried large signs alongside the Christians to block their message and their access to the event attendees, while others screamed obscenities. The police refused to take action as the Christians were continuously followed, obstructed, and harassed.

Repent America obeyed all laws, and even the unlawful requests, to move by the Philadelphia Civil Affairs police officers in an effort of cooperation. Regardless of Repent America’s compliance, Chief James Tiano, head of the Civil Affairs Unit, without warning, ordered the arrests of the Christians and hauled them off to jail, where they spent 21 hours, before being released the following day. Ten Christians were individually charged with three felonies and five misdemeanors, while a teenager with the group was charged with a misdemeanor.

“This is one of the most remarkable and unlawful actions by police that I have ever witnessed. Their blatant disregard of the law by allowing hecklers to impede our way, block our message, and then arrest us, is inexcusable, especially by police officers who are specially trained to protect civil rights,” stated Michael Marcavage, director of Repent America. “Christians are now being labeled as ‘haters’ and any speech that homosexuals perceive to be intimidating, such as our Christian witness at OutFest, makes them a prime target for ‘hate crimes legislation’,” Marcavage continued.

The three felonies and five misdemeanors include: Criminal Conspiracy (Felony), Possession of Instruments of Crime (Misdemeanor), Reckless Endangerment of Another Person (Misdemeanor), Ethnic Intimidation (Felony), Riot (Felony), Failure to Disperse (Misdemeanor), Disorderly Conduct (Misdemeanor), and Obstructing Highways (Misdemeanor). “We are clearly ‘not guilty’ of these crimes, and with the help of our video footage, we shall be vindicated of these trumped up charges,” Marcavage concluded.

The Christians are scheduled to be arraigned on October 18, 2004 at 8:00AM in the Philadelphia Criminal Justice Center.

Here's one with a video of the arrest and the events leading up to it. http://www.repentamerica.com/index.php Look for the link on to the video on the right side of the page under "FEATURED VIDEO- Outfest Arrests". Jibes with the written report on the first site, more or less.

Pertinent fact not highlighted in the article are that the christian demonstration was disrupting the business of the booths that had paid to be there, whereas the christians had not paid to be there. They make much of the idea that the pink angels signs were blocking theirs and that was illegal obstruction, but as best I know they have the right to travel where they like, more or less (provided theyre travelling and not effectively loitering, one of the issues in the video), and they have the right to speak freely, but they dont have the right to be heard. Last, some of them may have been reading scripture quietly, they certainly werent being all that quiet overall. The charges do indeed seem inflated, but at least being arrested to get them out of the way seems to have been reasonable. At least some of the charges may stem from a pattern of behaviour and not just this one event. Their spokesman did say he's been arrested before for obstruction etc. Do your own research on that one.

*Hugs*
Varia

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 25, 2004, 5:57 pm

Wow, thats some bullshit right there. That guy asked 4 or 5 times what he was being arrested for and they never answered him. Now, hes waiting on felony charges? Funny, dont see the aclu jumping all over this one.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » December 25, 2004, 6:48 pm

While i side with the "accused" in that story, I have to wonder what would have happened if, at a Christmas Eve mass, a group of homosexuals calling themselves the "Christians Are Stupid Fuckers Action Group" went to "approach the event". I'll tell you what. They would be:

A) assholes
B) detained without due course

Looks like the same with this group. While they're probably pricks, it sounds like, legally speaking, they've got the right of way.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » December 25, 2004, 10:18 pm

MooZilla wrote:I think someone needs to be enlightened

Irony personified

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 25, 2004, 10:31 pm

Sionistic wrote: Funny, dont see the aclu jumping all over this one.

Excellent point.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » December 26, 2004, 1:42 am

one one side of the family i have two sets of aunts/uncles cousins who live totally polarizing lifestyles, so i can relate to the scenario

one are religious conservative born again christians with 12 and 8 year old children, who have several highlighted bibles, play christian rock at there home, do not own a cable television set and raise there children in a very sheltered mannor, as they are totally hidden from the "real world"

another set are liberals and jewish who raise there kids in a very open enviornment with a 9 year old and a 6 or 7 year old, that 9 year old is far more mature and culturally advanced then the 12 year old in the other family that i truly feel sorry for (at least il have some fun planning his 18th birthday)

needless to say both of these sisters and familys have not spoken for around 10 years, my jewish relatives recieved several threats from the other side that they were living heathonistic lifestyles and that they were doomed to an eternity in hell for disposing of jesus

and atokal...shut the fuck up...why the hell do all of you undersexed underaccomplished white male christians feel so godamn opressed...you own the government and you try to opress others with your "values" by doing everything in your power to deny those who do not think exactlly as you do of your rights...that is why CHRISTIANS are disliked by many while other religious groups do not hold such a reputation as while they invite others to share there values, they dont FORCE there values upon others

it makes me want to vomit when i hear of these christians calling themselves hated and opressed when they are trying to force me to live my life by there lifestyle

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 26, 2004, 8:11 am

Replace homosexuals with jews, and replace Christians w/ the KKK, and are you still for them "open-air preaching", banners, and distributing literature?

I'm NOT saying all Christians are rabid in the way the KKK are, but I bet the ones that turn up to OutFest are just a little extreme.

How about a couple making out noisily w/ lots of clothed heavy petting in the middle of your middle school nativity play audience?

People have a "natural right" to join together and celebrate their beliefs without a few nutjobs pissing on their parade.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » December 26, 2004, 8:57 am

Xzion- wrote: and atokal...shut the fuck up...why the hell do all of you undersexed underaccomplished white male christians feel so godamn opressed...you own the government and you try to opress others with your "values" by doing everything in your power to deny those who do not think exactlly as you do of your rights...that is why CHRISTIANS are disliked by many while other religious groups do not hold such a reputation as while they invite others to share there values, they dont FORCE there values upon others

it makes me want to vomit when i hear of these christians calling themselves hated and opressed when they are trying to force me to live my life by there lifestyle

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 26, 2004, 11:19 am

Zaelath wrote:Replace homosexuals with jews, and replace Christians w/ the KKK, and are you still for them "open-air preaching", banners, and distributing literature?

I'm NOT saying all Christians are rabid in the way the KKK are, but I bet the ones that turn up to OutFest are just a little extreme.

How about a couple making out noisily w/ lots of clothed heavy petting in the middle of your middle school nativity play audience?

People have a "natural right" to join together and celebrate their beliefs without a few nutjobs pissing on their parade.

The KKK and most christian groups are totaly different. KKK actively preach violence against other groups. The christians here were non-violent and following all laws, in actuallity the only ones breaking the law were the gays.

The ones that turned out? You mean the guys singing songs and 100% compliant with the police untill they turn unlawful?

More invalid analogies. The couple is on school ground, not a public street. The heavy petting that you are refering to is not allowed in public last time I checked.

People have the natural right to voice their opinion, and so do those of the parade.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 26, 2004, 4:23 pm

Sionistic wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Replace homosexuals with jews, and replace Christians w/ the KKK, and are you still for them "open-air preaching", banners, and distributing literature?

I'm NOT saying all Christians are rabid in the way the KKK are, but I bet the ones that turn up to OutFest are just a little extreme.

How about a couple making out noisily w/ lots of clothed heavy petting in the middle of your middle school nativity play audience?

People have a "natural right" to join together and celebrate their beliefs without a few nutjobs pissing on their parade.
The KKK and most christian groups are totaly different. KKK actively preach violence against other groups. The christians here were non-violent and following all laws, in actuallity the only ones breaking the law were the gays.

The ones that turned out? You mean the guys singing songs and 100% compliant with the police untill they turn unlawful?

More invalid analogies. The couple is on school ground, not a public street. The heavy petting that you are refering to is not allowed in public last time I checked.

People have the natural right to voice their opinion, and so do those of the parade.

Which laws do you think the gays were breaking?

Varia

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 26, 2004, 5:43 pm

Obstruction

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 26, 2004, 8:33 pm

Nope, not obstruction. They let the protesters through their line when told to. The rest of the time they had a MOVING ring of people around the protesters, moving in the direction the protesters wanted to go, which is annoying, but not obstruction. Blocking the protesters signs? Nope, no such law exists to prevent anyone waving a sign in front of someone elses waved sign. If the blocked sign was one that was explicitly paid for and someone was then waving stuff in front of it blocking the view there might be a case, but not in this case.

Next?

Varia

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 26, 2004, 8:54 pm

VariaVespasa wrote:Nope, not obstruction. They let the protesters through their line when told to. The rest of the time they had a MOVING ring of people around the protesters, moving in the direction the protesters wanted to go, which is annoying, but not obstruction. Blocking the protesters signs? Nope, no such law exists to prevent anyone waving a sign in front of someone elses waved sign. If the blocked sign was one that was explicitly paid for and someone was then waving stuff in front of it blocking the view there might be a case, but not in this case.

Next?

Varia

Nice try...

Lets liken your example to some other illegal activity...

Some person shoplifts something from a store, walks out the door, but 15 minutes later the police happen to catch up to him and tells the person 'You shoplifted from the store, but if you just give it back to them you didn't shoplift.'

Sounds silly yes?

They were in fact obstructing passage on the sidewalk, as shown by the woman int he video who simply wanted to go to her home, but couldn't get through. She told the people blocking the street that she wanted to get home, they let her through, but immediately obstructed the path after she went through.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » December 26, 2004, 10:38 pm

I'm sorry, I just find it cute how the problem of hatemongers has been 'solved' by creating peaceful hatemongering.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 27, 2004, 3:36 am

Niffoni wrote:I'm sorry, I just find it cute how the problem of hatemongers has been 'solved' by creating peaceful hatemongering.

Which side you talking about.

The people reading from the Bible and having signs up while talking reasonably with the police officers

The people blocking public walkways/roads, walking around blowing loud whistles, and lifting large pink squares of plastic so no one can see what the signs had to say.

I know which ones I would call the haters.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » December 27, 2004, 5:53 am

Christians hate the gays because they view it as an abhorrence to religion.

Gays hate the Christians because they view religion as a tool to keep the masses scared and uninformed, especially about homosexuality.

No one is going to be happy, no matter the result of anything court battle or protest rally. It's too bad both sides can't learn to live with one another.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 27, 2004, 7:49 am

Kaldaur wrote:Christians hate the gays because they view it as an abhorrence to religion.

I think that is going a bit far there. I'm not religious, but even I know that the way things are taught, not that there aren't some extremists out there, it isn't about hating the sinner (according to their religion).

I'm fairly certain that the people with the whistles and the big pieces of pink plastic or styrofoam were the more militant gays.

I'd like to see how some of you would react if you were trying to talk to someone and someone came up to you and started blowing a loud, obnoxious whistle practically next to your ear. I'm betting a few of you would be sorely tempted to deck the guy where he stood, if it was a guy.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » December 27, 2004, 9:30 am

Its...a....parade. That small group of Christians went down to look for trouble. What do you think the purpose of going down to a parade and telling them, the gays, what they are as the human race is wrong.?

What do you think would of happened if the KKK went down to the million man march? You call the blacks haters too?

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » December 27, 2004, 11:47 am

Blacks are such racist-haters. Fucking blacks. Always trying to keep racists from protesting their existance when they're just peaceful, happy sign-wavers. Just like those poor, hard-done by psudo-christians. Who, of course, had mature and loving intentions.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 27, 2004, 1:28 pm

Well, if you decide to go into the middle of a planned Parade (notice were not talking about a spontanous demostration or something here, were talking about a planned event), and start making trouble, whether its by singing and waving signs, or by throwing rocks, or by wearing "i hate blacks" tshirts, youre asking for trouble, trying to disrupt the peace, and should go on trial for that if you keep doing it, even after the police suggest you go away.

Hell, if a bunch of nazis decide to walk around singing german nazi songs during a parade held in honor of the jews who died in WW2, i dont think anyone would think its unreasonable that they should be punished, right? Its the exact same thing here, a bunch of people who got a different view from the ones holding the event decide to come and try to provoke a fight and disturb the parade.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 27, 2004, 2:02 pm

Any Zionist would support a "Christian America".

They know that the more intermingled religion is with government, the more easily a population can be manipulated. Israel has already figured out how to manipulate the levers it needs to get the United States to pretty much lend it unswerving support, and the more religiosity is comingled with our government, those levers only gain greater traction.

The more fundamentalist the United States becomes, the more likely it is to invade and occupy Arab Islamic states, the principal military threats to Israel.

Israel knows it will only gain in power if any level of these scenarios were to play out, and as such would greatly benefit by a theocratic United States.

Thankfully, even though there are lots of fundamentalists in this country, there aren't quite enough of them to ever make this happen. And even if they ever became a majority, they simply will never have enough economic leverage to implement these facets of their agendas. There are some exceedingly wealthy evangelicals, but I would suggest they make up a proportionately smaller portion of the population as you scale upwards economically. So far the bulk of their political power has largely been due to the ease with which they can be manipulated.

It is difficult to parlay that "asset" into meaningful power.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » December 27, 2004, 2:17 pm

I find it hard to believe that the president of the united states could believe in religion...

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 27, 2004, 4:07 pm

Fash wrote:I find it hard to believe that the president of the united states could believe in religion...

I just find it frightening

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 27, 2004, 4:32 pm

Hesten wrote:Well, if you decide to go into the middle of a planned Parade (notice were not talking about a spontanous demostration or something here, were talking about a planned event), and start making trouble, whether its by singing and waving signs, or by throwing rocks, or by wearing "i hate blacks" tshirts, youre asking for trouble, trying to disrupt the peace, and should go on trial for that if you keep doing it, even after the police suggest you go away.

Those people reading from the bible were hardly being that disruptive. There was someone who came to our public university weekly and did the same thing. He stood there for hours outside of a heavily trafficked area and talked quite loudly, reading fromt he bible, and had some rather large signs and so on...

What he did was annoying and IMO distruptive. However, I simply walked by without acknowledging the fact that he was there. It's really not that hard to ignore someone if all they are doing is talking.

Hesten wrote: Hell, if a bunch of nazis decide to walk around singing german nazi songs during a parade held in honor of the jews who died in WW2, i dont think anyone would think its unreasonable that they should be punished, right? Its the exact same thing here, a bunch of people who got a different view from the ones holding the event decide to come and try to provoke a fight and disturb the parade.

You may not like what the people are saying, but they do have the right to say it. That's integral to Freedom of Speech.

Your Nazi's example is retarded though. Reading from the Bible and using signs is hardly the same thing as advocating the mass murder and torture of people.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 27, 2004, 8:32 pm

Aruman wrote:
Hesten wrote: Hell, if a bunch of nazis decide to walk around singing german nazi songs during a parade held in honor of the jews who died in WW2, i dont think anyone would think its unreasonable that they should be punished, right? Its the exact same thing here, a bunch of people who got a different view from the ones holding the event decide to come and try to provoke a fight and disturb the parade.
You may not like what the people are saying, but they do have the right to say it. That's integral to Freedom of Speech.

Your Nazi's example is retarded though. Reading from the Bible and using signs is hardly the same thing as advocating the mass murder and torture of people.

That quite depend on A, how fanatical they are, and B, what part of the bible they are quoting from.
If you go find a fanatic bible thumper, you will most likely get told that homosexuals are an affront to god, and should get stoned to death (yes, the bible tell you to go stone homosexuals).

And theres quite a difference between showing up at a college unplanned, and showing up at a PLANNED event to start disrupting the peace, and try to ruin the event for people.

If you show up at a college, as pr your example, you are trying to spread the word on whatever youre saying. Of course depending on WHAT the person say, it can be more or less bothersome, but it IS nothing more than trying to spread your message.
But IF you go do the same in a place where you KNOW there at the time will be almost 100% people with the opposite views of what youre gonna say, and you go say it anyway, JUST to provoke people, then its a problem.

Lets come with another example. 10 people decided to go to a street, with "abortions are bad" sings, and sing anti abortion songs, theyre of course bothersome to the people that dont agree with them, but not more than a nuiciance.
BUT if the same 10 people decide to show up at a woman shelter for women who got beat up by their husbands, and the shelter also informing their clients about abortion, and those 10 people decide to sit next to the entrance to that shelter, and wave their signt and sing songs, THAT is a direct provocation, AND they should be removed by the police for obstruction, and trying to start trouble.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 27, 2004, 8:48 pm

Hesten wrote:Lets come with another example. 10 people decided to go to a street, with "abortions are bad" sings, and sing anti abortion songs, theyre of course bothersome to the people that dont agree with them, but not more than a nuiciance.
BUT if the same 10 people decide to show up at a woman shelter for women who got beat up by their husbands, and the shelter also informing their clients about abortion, and those 10 people decide to sit next to the entrance to that shelter, and wave their signt and sing songs, THAT is a direct provocation, AND they should be removed by the police for obstruction, and trying to start trouble.

This is exactly why some people push Freedom of Speech as far as they can, to get a reaction from people. Just because someone or some gathering doesn't like what the person has to say does not give them license to become violent or themselves disruptive.

You really think it is acceptable to be arrested for simply speaking to others about your opinions or beliefs?

Maybe where you live it's acceptable, but I sincerely hope no one in the United States believes this.

*edit*

Left out a few words...

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » December 28, 2004, 12:36 am

I bet sylvos is a member of the pink angels!

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 28, 2004, 1:20 am

You have the right to say what you like, EXCEPT when it poses an undue risk to public safety, like shouting fire in a crowded theatre, or where its unusually likely to incite violence, like say, in a group of people who you know to hold explicitly opposing beliefs... If the christian protestors want to protest theyre perfectly entitled to do so somewhere where it doesnt unreasonably provoke the situation- a different day, a different block, on the edge of the gay pride event rather than in the middle. Abortion protestors have to do it outside the clinic forinstance, theyre not allowed to come inside to protest. You get the idea.

And if they do come inside then the clinic is perfectly within its rights to hold their message in front of the protestors' in order to conduct THEIR business in the area THEY arranged and THEY paid for. The gay pride event PAID to be there, the protestors did not. Also remember, the right to speak freely does NOT include the right to be heard. The protestors have a right to have signs, they do not have a right to have nothing obstructing the view of their signs, or to have nothing drowning out their words, any more than a protestor at a politcal rally has a right to have all the other signs at the rally brought down so his can be seen through the crowds, or to have all conversation ceased and the speakers microphone turned off so he can be heard.

*Hugs*
Varia

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 28, 2004, 2:57 am

Aruman wrote: You really think it is acceptable to be arrested for simply speaking to others about your opinions or beliefs?

Sure, and so do you. If I my belief was that you were the anti-christ and I went around discussing my opinion with slightly insane christian zealots, then I wouldn't HAVE to suggest they kill you, it's still incitement to violence.

The reason the cops removed the vocal minority from the situtation is they have the *common sense* to know who the shit stirrers are in this situation.

Shame most people are far too damn partisan to use any on here.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 28, 2004, 3:33 am

VariaVespasa wrote: The gay pride event PAID to be there, the protestors did not.

Doesn't matter... It was a public area.

Public expression of ideas may not be prohibited merely because the ideas are themselves offensive to some of their hearers" (Street vs. New York, 1969)

Speech is most protected in streets, parks, and public places, which have "immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public and...have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions" (Hague vs. CIO, 1939)

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 28, 2004, 3:34 am

Zaelath wrote: The reason the cops removed the vocal minority from the situtation is they have the *common sense* to know who the shit stirrers are in this situation.

Yeah, people reading from the Bible are real shit stirrer's.

IMO the police should have protected the people reading from the Bible, after all, that is what they are paid to do. Not pander to mob rule.

Violating someone's rights is not a reasonable means of protection.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 28, 2004, 5:36 am

Aruman wrote:
Zaelath wrote: The reason the cops removed the vocal minority from the situtation is they have the *common sense* to know who the shit stirrers are in this situation.
Yeah, people reading from the Bible are real shit stirrer's.

IMO the police should have protected the people reading from the Bible, after all, that is what they are paid to do. Not pander to mob rule.

Violating someone's rights is not a reasonable means of protection.

Again, your complete lack of fucking empathy for anyone that isn't like you prevents you from applying any common sense to the situation.

The stupid part is Jesus preached compassion, empathy and acceptance. Assholes like this need to at least convert to judaism if they want to ignore the new testament.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 28, 2004, 10:20 am

Aruman wrote:
VariaVespasa wrote: The gay pride event PAID to be there, the protestors did not.
Doesn't matter... It was a public area.

Public expression of ideas may not be prohibited merely because the ideas are themselves offensive to some of their hearers" (Street vs. New York, 1969)

Speech is most protected in streets, parks, and public places, which have "immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public and...have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions" (Hague vs. CIO, 1939)

Of course it matters. Those who are operating within the system merit protection against those who are not, in this case the protestors. Being a public area is not a trump card over that principle. The christians were not being restriced MERELY because the gay pride didnt like hearing it, but because they were disrupting a free speech event, and doing so in an unduly confronational manner.

"In addition to speech, the 1st Amendment protects writing, demonstrating, parading, leafleting, and certain forms of symbolic expression. Confronted with cases where local governments have tried to restrict or accommodate these various kinds of vocal and body speech, the Court has developed the principle that government can place reasonable regulations on when, where, and how speakers may express themselves. Thus, the freedom of speech becomes a subject to "reasonable time, manner, and place" regulations, as long as these regulations are "content-neutral."

Translating this legalistic jargon in plain English, the bureaucrats cannot restrict the content of what the speaker has to say, but it is their prerogative to reason what "reasonable" time, manner, and place are. And we know how they usually define what "reasonable" is (for them, of course). Therefore, a local bureaucrats may require a parade permit or limit the ability to demonstrate in certain places (to protect public safety), but the restrictions must apply evenhandedly to all speakers, regardless of the message they wish to convey."

The speach on public land may be regulated within the parameters noted in the quote above. The gay pride free speech had its permits etc, the protest did not, and therefor had some restrictions upon it that the gay pride did not. If, the next day, there had been a christian event and gay pride showed up to protest then gay pride would have had the extra restrictions in its turn.

The charges against the protesters do seem wildly inflated and thus warrant investigation, but that there were *some* charges against them seems absolutely reasonable.

*Hugs*
Varia

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 28, 2004, 2:16 pm

Zaelath wrote: Again, your complete lack of fucking empathy for anyone that isn't like you prevents you from applying any common sense to the situation.

The stupid part is Jesus preached compassion, empathy and acceptance. Assholes like this need to at least convert to judaism if they want to ignore the new testament.

Like me? I don't give a damn about religion. I do give a damn about Freedom of Speech though.

You have a reading disability? I have said many times in various threads (this one included) that I am not a religious person.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 29, 2004, 1:00 am

Aruman wrote:
Zaelath wrote: Again, your complete lack of fucking empathy for anyone that isn't like you prevents you from applying any common sense to the situation.

The stupid part is Jesus preached compassion, empathy and acceptance. Assholes like this need to at least convert to judaism if they want to ignore the new testament.
Like me? I don't give a damn about religion. I do give a damn about Freedom of Speech though.

You have a reading disability? I have said many times in various threads (this one included) that I am not a religious person.

Like you; straight.

This is not a freedom of speech issue, this is a freedom to disrupt people you don't approve of issue. They could have held a festival of reading bibles one street over, they were there deliberately to be obstructive. If you're too obtuse to see the difference then that would be your problem, apparently cops understand justice a lot better than you claim to understand the law.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 29, 2004, 1:21 am

VariaVespasa wrote:You have the right to say what you like, EXCEPT when it poses an undue risk to public safety, like shouting fire in a crowded theatre,

Train!!!!

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 29, 2004, 3:39 am

Zaelath wrote: If you're too obtuse to see the difference then that would be your problem, apparently cops understand justice a lot better than you claim to understand the law.

If that is what they call justice in that city, I'm glad I don't live there.

Being charged with Felony offenses for reading from the Bible? Give me a break. Trumped up charges is what they are.

Are they wearing jackboots as part of their uniform?

Looks to me like those fired LA police officers packed up and moved to a new city.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 29, 2004, 6:18 am

Aruman wrote:
Zaelath wrote: If you're too obtuse to see the difference then that would be your problem, apparently cops understand justice a lot better than you claim to understand the law.
If that is what they call justice in that city, I'm glad I don't live there.

Being charged with Felony offenses for reading from the Bible? Give me a break. Trumped up charges is what they are.

Are they wearing jackboots as part of their uniform?

Looks to me like those fired LA police officers packed up and moved to a new city.

No, the felony charges are not for "reading from the bible". The charges were Criminal Conspiracy, Ethnic Intimidation, and Riot. Pretty sure there was "some" foundation for those charges, trumped up or no.

Whatever Aruman, if you think people should be allowed to deliberately set out to stir up trouble then I don't really have any argument for that.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 29, 2004, 12:23 pm

Zaelath wrote: Whatever Aruman, if you think people should be allowed to deliberately set out to stir up trouble then I don't really have any argument for that.

There is the problem... right there.

You see it as stirring up trouble, I see it as someone who is simply trying to exercise their right to Freedom of Speech.

That 'right to be heard' argument may be valid but not at the cost of restricting the rights of others.

It's not like those Bible readers were out there beating people with clubs or threatening violence. All they were doing was reading from a book, and had religion related quotes on some banners.

Ethnic intimidation? Against what race? I would imagine that those people reading from the Bible were expressing their belief that homosexuality is a sin. Since homosexuality is not restricted to a specific race, how can the police charge them with ethnic intimidation?

Criminal Conspiracy? Since when is religion a Criminal Conspiracy?

Riot? Standing there reading from a Bible is rioting? You must come from Blandsville if you consider reading from a Bible as rioting.

Trumped up charges indeed!

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 29, 2004, 9:30 pm

Which part of carrying around a "HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN" banner written in foot high letters at a gay pride rally do you not see as shit stirring?

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 29, 2004, 10:29 pm

Zaelath wrote:Which part of carrying around a "HOMOSEXUALITY IS SIN" banner written in foot high letters at a gay pride rally do you not see as shit stirring?

I've seen much worse than that at various places, and without anything violent happening.

Some people are able to tolerate the beliefs of others without resorting to violence. You know, it's called being civil.

Wait, let me say what I think you are saying... religion must be tolerant of homosexuality under threat of charges of Criminal Conspiracy, Ethnic intimidation, and Riot while homosexuals don't have to be tolerant of religion... I got it now.