Interesting articles on Bush ties to Swift Boat Vets

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 23, 2004, 9:20 pm

and Jerry Falwell will be at the RNC

and Pat Robertson who once said something like he was going to send a hurricane to New York to clear up all the hethens or something.

didn't falwell blame 9/11 on the gays?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 23, 2004, 9:36 pm

Voronwë wrote:and Jerry Falwell will be at the RNC

and Pat Robertson who once said something like he was going to send a hurricane to New York to clear up all the hethens or something.

didn't falwell blame 9/11 on the gays?

I believe he blamed Americans declining social values for the attack on 9/11.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 23, 2004, 9:43 pm

I take that back, LOL.

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say: you helped this happen."

What I said, would have been a much better way than how he said it. Youch!

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 23, 2004, 10:30 pm

The republicans are allowing a facioust, because that IS what Jerry Falwell is, a faciousrespresent them and be a part of there convention?
A man who is against the bill of rights, against civil rights, against civil liberties, a racist, a sexist and a man on par with the extremism of Osama Bin Laden himself, will be gathering support for George W Bush...thats all i need to know

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » August 24, 2004, 12:03 am

Kerry's after-action report for that day is featured on his website. See Exhibit 17. KJW identifies the report as Kerry's. Likewise, Kerry reported his shrapnel wounds to the Navy in an injury report:

Lifted from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth website.

KJW = John Forbes Kerry. No really!

Crav · Post by **Crav** » August 25, 2004, 5:58 am

A new article on a lawyer for the Bush reelection campaign who is also advising the Swift boat Vets.

Link

Now as the article mentions it is not uncommon for a lawyer who works for the RNC or DNC to also advise 527 groups, I do find it rather disturbing that he is being paid directly and working with the Bush reelection campaign and working pro bono for a 527 group that already has some thin ties to the Bush campaign and family. It will be interesting to see what exactly he has been helping them with and deserves to be looked into.

Bush campaign lawyer advises swift boat group

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A lawyer for President Bush's re-election campaign disclosed Tuesday that he has been providing legal advice for a veterans group that is challenging Democratic Sen. John Kerry's account of his Vietnam War service.

Benjamin Ginsberg's acknowledgment marks the second time in days that an individual associated with the Bush-Cheney campaign has been connected to the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which Kerry accuses of being a front for the Republican incumbent's re-election effort.

The Bush campaign and the veterans' group say there is no coordination.

The group "came to me and said, 'We have a point of view we want to get into the First Amendment debate right now. There's a new law. It's very complicated. We want to comply with the law, will you keep us in the bounds of the law?"' Ginsberg said in an interview with The Associated Press. "I said yes, absolutely, as I would do for anyone."

Ginsberg said he never told the Bush campaign what he discussed with the group, or vice versa, and doesn't advise the group on ad strategies.

"They have legal questions and when they have legal questions I answer them," Ginsberg said. He said he had not yet decided whether to charge the Swift Boat Veterans a fee for his work.

Kerry's presidential campaign last week filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission accusing the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth of illegally coordinating the group's ads.

The ads allege Kerry has lied about his decorated Vietnam War service; the group's accounts in a television ad have been disputed by Navy records and veterans who served on Kerry's boat.

"It's another piece of the mounting evidence of the ties between the Bush campaign and this group," Kerry campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said of Ginsberg's admission. "The longer President Bush waits to specifically condemn this smear, the more it looks like his campaign is behind it."

On Saturday, retired Air Force Col. Ken Cordier resigned as a member of the Bush campaign's veterans' steering committee after it was learned that he appeared in the Swift Boat veterans' commercial.

Kerry, meanwhile, is the subject of complaints by the Bush campaign and the Republican National Committee accusing his campaign of illegally coordinating anti-Bush ads with soft-money groups on the Democratic side, allegations he and the groups deny.

Ginsberg also represented the Bush campaign in 2000 and became a prominent figure during the Florida recount.

He also served as counsel to the RNC in its unsuccessful lawsuit seeking to overturn the nation's campaign finance law, which banned the national party committees from collecting corporate, union and unlimited donations known as soft money and imposed stricter rules on coordination involving parties, candidates and interest groups.

Ginsberg contends that by offering legal advice to both the Bush campaign and the Swift Boat group, he has done nothing different than other election lawyers in Washington, including attorneys for Kerry and the Democratic National Committee who have also advised soft-money groups.

Representing campaigns, parties and outside groups simultaneously is legal and allowed under the law and by the FEC, he said.

"The truth is there is only a handful of lawyers who live and breathe this law. And so because the coordination rules do not include legal services among the prohibited coordinated activities, we provide legal service," Ginsberg said.

Larry Noble, head of the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics campaign watchdog group and former FEC general counsel, said it's true that serving as a lawyer for both a campaign and a soft-money group isn't considered automatic evidence of coordination under commission rules, but added that it doesn't mean the FEC won't look at it.

"I think there's a valid question about when you're talking about strictly legal advice and when you're talking about policy issues and strategic issues," Noble said. "It's fair to ask what the advice is about."

Joe Sandler, a lawyer for the DNC and a group running anti-Bush ads, MoveOn.org, said there is nothing wrong with serving in both roles at once.

In addition to the FEC's coordination rules, attorneys are ethically bound to maintain attorney-client confidentiality, Sandler said. They could lose their law license if they violate that, he said.

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » August 25, 2004, 9:41 am

Trying to find it somewhere, but Kerry's campaign came out yesterday and admitted the first purple heart was from a self-inflicted wound.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 25, 2004, 12:03 pm

i find that HIGHLY unlikely. i didnt hear it and i watched about 10 hours of news yesterday.

Another tie to the Swiftvets was a member of Bush's Veteran's Advisory Committee (part of his campaign organization) was one of the Swiftboat Vets actually talking in the commercial. He stepped down claiming "he didnt know he was going to be pictured in the commercial".

hmm...what was the hour of putting makeup on, then sitting in front of a television camera repeating the same lines four or five times all about then?

But Bush saying he is opposed to 527's is a total lie. For example, in November, 2000 a 527 was formed called: "Bush Cheney 2000, Inc. Recount Fund".

He and his wife also recently appeared on the cover of a 527 newsletter - The National Federation of Republican Women:

Here is their IRS form with the 527 box checked. <8 the internet

i think the only thing the GOP really doesnt like about 527's is that they haven't used them as well as the Democrats have in 2004.

any of you people who buy this nonsense that Bush thinks they should be done away with are kidding yourselves.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 25, 2004, 12:07 pm

Crav wrote:Now as the article mentions it is not uncommon for a lawyer who works for the RNC or DNC to also advise 527 groups, I do find it rather disturbing that he is being paid directly and working with the Bush reelection campaign and working pro bono for a 527 group that already has some thin ties to the Bush campaign and family. It will be interesting to see what exactly he has been helping them with and deserves to be looked into.

So you are saying this attorney should divulge confidential information about his clients? How fast do you want him disbarred?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 25, 2004, 12:10 pm

Metanis, Attorney-Client privelage does not insulate attornies from violating the law.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 25, 2004, 12:11 pm

Voronwë wrote:...any of you people who buy this nonsense that Bush thinks they should be done away with are kidding yourselves.

Actually I think Bush is sincere. Of course Bush understands there is NOT once chance in 20 billion that it will happen. So it's one of those "safe" beliefs he knows he will never get called on.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 25, 2004, 12:14 pm

Voronwë wrote:Metanis, Attorney-Client privelage does not insulate attornies from violating the law.

Ok, maybe I missed something here. Tell me exactly how and where this attorney is violating the law.

I want proof, not speculation, that he MIGHT have done something improper simply because he has 2 clients.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 25, 2004, 12:24 pm

It is against the law for political campaigns to coordinate the activity of 527 groups.

TWO people have resigned this week from George Bush's campaign because they either also worked for "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" or WERE A MEMBER of the 527 group - pictured in the commercial.

So these persons may not have broken the law. They may not have ever spoken about this 527 while they were "at the office" (meanign working for Bush-Cheney '04).

So they may not be guilty of anything, but they certainly are potentially suspects. So in that regard this lawyers work for both entities is entirely relevant.

Even still he resigned.

I think it is getting pretty hard though for even the most strident Bush supporter to really believe in their hearts that "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" is working entirely independently from senior Republican leadership.

there is enough seperation to give plausible deniability.

do the math man, "Friends of Bush" in 2000 smears McCain. All of a sudden some of those same people are involved in "Swiftvets", and major Bush supporters are funding Swiftvets. And 2 members of Bush-Cheney '04 also are working for "Swiftvets".

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 25, 2004, 1:12 pm

that being said, a Kerry lawyer, according to the NYTimes, did work also for a 527 called American First (or something like that) - which is a "get out the vote effort".

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 25, 2004, 1:27 pm

The Law of Unintended Consequences. McCain-Feingold was supposed to clean up campaigns. So it drives the money to these 527 organizations.

I'll give the Democrats their due, they really have used these much more effectively than Republicans..

Crav · Post by **Crav** » August 25, 2004, 2:53 pm

Metanis wrote:
Crav wrote:Now as the article mentions it is not uncommon for a lawyer who works for the RNC or DNC to also advise 527 groups, I do find it rather disturbing that he is being paid directly and working with the Bush reelection campaign and working pro bono for a 527 group that already has some thin ties to the Bush campaign and family. It will be interesting to see what exactly he has been helping them with and deserves to be looked into.
So you are saying this attorney should divulge confidential information about his clients? How fast do you want him disbarred?

Voronwe covered most of the reasons why attorney client privilege could not be used. I'm not saying he should go to the press and tell them everything they talked about, all I am saying as there should be an inquiry into what his functions with the group were. Even with pro bono work there should be notes and memos on what they discussed, I think it would be acceptable for an FEC review board to look into whether there were any laws broken.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 25, 2004, 3:35 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Trying to find it somewhere, but Kerry's campaign came out yesterday and admitted the first purple heart was from a self-inflicted wound.

it will be interesting to see if you can provide links into your own little imaginary fantasy world on an internet forum.

Bakara · Post by **Bakara** » August 25, 2004, 4:38 pm

campaign lawyer takes fall for bush (oops, i mean resigns):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818431/

These guys have been on our airwaves for 2 weeks with no evidence whatsoever, their stories are bullshit and today the icing on the cake: we find out that a bush campaign lawyer Benjamin Ginsberg is tied to these guys as well as big republican money from Houston (that was yeterday though). What suprises me is how our LIBERAL LEFT media as proclaimed so loudly by many others (others say!) allowed this shit to drag on, much less how did they even air the story without so much as a single piece of documented evidence that backs up any of these SB Vet stories. Navy records seem to have the facts straight (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818634/)... why don't these guys? Either they are lying our thousands of documents are incorrect. Only one out of the two hundred some odd guys was even on a boat with Kerry. They don't have any credibility in my opinion, we should be spending our time listening to presidential candidates views on current policies, you know important things like... our economy, health care, the bullshit war in iraq, our environment.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » August 25, 2004, 4:45 pm

Actually I'm pretty sure that none of the Swift boat Vets for Truth were on Kerry's boat, I believe Voronwe pointed this out in another thread.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 25, 2004, 6:11 pm

Crav wrote:Actually I'm pretty sure that none of the Swift boat Vets for Truth were on Kerry's boat, I believe Voronwe pointed this out in another thread.

11 people were on Kerry's boat. 1 is dead. 9 are promoting Kerry, and 1 is staying out of politics entirely as far as I know.

and yeah Bakara, it is really a sad thing that all 3 major cable networks really let this controversy bang out over their airwaves without leading any investigative efforts to determine the authenticity of the attacks.

it shows a weakness of the medium in its current state i am afraid. Thankfully, newspapers took the lead and launched several independent investigations, that have thoroughly refuted the claims in the advertisements.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 25, 2004, 6:32 pm

Shame on Google news.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 25, 2004, 6:49 pm

I don't really know the laws and stuff, but.. if these ads are proven as pure lies, would that be considered slander and be illegal?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 26, 2004, 10:57 am

kyoukan wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Trying to find it somewhere, but Kerry's campaign came out yesterday and admitted the first purple heart was from a self-inflicted wound.
it will be interesting to see if you can provide links into your own little imaginary fantasy world on an internet forum.

I saw the same reference about self-inflicted wound. It was on the right-hand column of Drudge. It was a single sentance with no links. I could find no further reference to the statement. So this was not a fantasy by Midnyte. The statement itself appears to be nothing more than a rumor but it did appear on Drudge if no where else.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 26, 2004, 11:01 am

drudge report is not in any way shape or form a reliable news source by any objective standard.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » August 26, 2004, 11:46 am

Voronwë wrote:drudge report is not in any way shape or form a reliable news source by any objective standard.

Geez, imagine that... Google News.

I wasn't passing judgement on The Drudge Report, Kooky was implying that Midnyte made up the bit about self-inflicted wounds, but I saw the reference too.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 26, 2004, 11:58 am

Voronwë wrote:drudge report is not in any way shape or form a reliable news source by any objective standard.

But dood, if I read it on teh intarnet, it must be true!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 26, 2004, 11:58 am

I saw the lawyer who resigned from the Bush campaign on the O'Reilly Factor last night. According to him, he resigned simply because the hubub was becoming too much of a distraction, and his presence was doing more harm than good.

He sounded pretty confident that he had not violated any laws, as he never passed any information between the Swift Boat Vets and the campaign. He never told either of the two groups that he was doing work for the other, as that WOULD have been a breach in attorney/client privilege. All he did was advise the Vets on legal compliance issues.

miir · Post by **miir** » August 26, 2004, 12:01 pm

That's funny....

Believing what a lawyer says on TV.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » August 26, 2004, 12:05 pm

I didn't say I believed him. I said I saw him on the Factor. He did stand up pretty good to Bill, and he was not softballing the guy.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 26, 2004, 12:33 pm

miir wrote:
Voronwë wrote:drudge report is not in any way shape or form a reliable news source by any objective standard.
But dood, if I read it on teh intarnet, it must be true!

He never said it was true you fucking Dolt!!!! Bang your head against the wall 4 more times maybe it will sink in. All Met said was he saw it to.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » August 26, 2004, 4:25 pm

Metanis wrote:
Voronwë wrote:drudge report is not in any way shape or form a reliable news source by any objective standard.
Geez, imagine that... Google News.

I wasn't passing judgement on The Drudge Report, Kooky was implying that Midnyte made up the bit about self-inflicted wounds, but I saw the reference too.

Actually Midnyte's claim was that the Kerry campaign had announced that his first purple heart was from a self-inflicted wound, Kyoukan asked for a link that backed up his claim. From what I understand from Metanis' post the Drudge report only mentions the idea that it was self inflicted wounds, which is nothing new, not that the Kerry campaign had made an announcement to that affect.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2004, 7:17 pm

Can I get a ruling from the judges whether or not the drudge report does constitute as a link to midnyte's fantasy land?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 26, 2004, 7:18 pm

I read Drudge every day, I read the article he was referring to. The answer is no it does not count. I can make a blog saying I think his camp admitted to having sex with frogs, that does not mean if you link it that its fact.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 26, 2004, 7:22 pm

JOHN KERRY REPORTED TO HAVE SEX WITH FROGS. HAD CROISSANT AND ECLAIR FOR LUNCH. DEVELOPING...