Religion

[Adex_Xeda]

My points are important if you are going to offer up the Inquisition as the prime example of christianity in action.

If you are to forward the example you must give careful consideration to how well you know the example.

Who tells the story about the Inquisition? There was a revolutionary group at the time sucessfully using the printing press to slander the Spanish king and his institutions. Are these propaganda resources alone enough to write a truthful chronicle of the Inquisition?

How did the Inquistion compare to other kingdom's methods at the time?
If all were at the same level of severity then the wrongness of the institution must be derived from something larger than just "those catholic priests."


If you are to hold up the crusades as prime examples of christianity in action you must also question why they were in play? Was it truely due to some christian hubris to spread the gospel, or rather was it the actions of some very worried medivial kingdoms who saw the advance of islamic armies as a threat to their power? Was the christian mantle just used as a tool to provide legitimacy to an effort to loot and conquer?

Are cause an effect clearly linked here? Or are we just reciting the same old wive's tale in an effort to produce some nice drama?

[Xyun]

Blindly applying all of the world's problems to christianity is a cover for your personal distaste for christainity.

Irony at it's finest. Blindly accepting all of the tenets of christianity to cover your personal distaste for humanity seems to me to be a much more distructive force in this world.

How dare you sit there and deny the wrath and destruction that christianity and most forms of institutionalized religion have brought to this world throughout history? You deny these things as true and at the same time hold a 2000 year old mythology and a fictional book rewritten a hundred times over as the truth of all truths. What a fuckin joke.

The TRUTH is religious zealots such as yourself are responsible for most of the murders committed in the history of humanity, including members of my own family. Shove that down your bigotted, hypocritical, naive throat.

[Adex_Xeda]

Where does the bible justify murdering your family?

How is the christian faith responsible?

Strong accusations require strong evidence to be considered credible.

[Adex_Xeda]

Irony at it's finest. Blindly accepting all of the tenets of christianity to cover your personal distaste for humanity seems to me to be a much more distructive force in this world.

I've questioned a lot of things about the bible and consistantly they come to perfect agreement with science, reality, and common sense. The only distaste that I have in humanity is from my personal failings. The humanity in me falls short too often. That is why I seek God's help to prevent me from harming others.

How dare you sit there and deny the wrath and destruction that christianity and most forms of institutionalized religion have brought to this world throughout history?

I recognise it, but I also recognise that the destruction and evil wasn't limited to religous people. It was common theme amonst all of humanity. If the record of evil has been show across all types, then you are ill supported to place the root of evil on a subset such as relgion.

You deny these things as true

Nope, I deny half truths told with emotion in an effort to slander.

and at the same time hold a 2000 year old mythology and a fictional book rewritten a hundred times over as the truth of all truths. What a fuckin joke.

Obviously there is something I've experienced that you have not because by your characterzation nobody would belive. Don't ya think?

The TRUTH is religious zealots such as yourself are responsible for most of the murders committed in the history of humanity, including members of my own family. Shove that down your bigotted, hypocritical, naive throat.

Thusfar your accusation is supported by questionable examples. The examples are so questionable that the question arrises, why do you apply so much emotion to such a shaky evidence? Question your standing. Are you basing your beliefs on something other than reasonable truth?

I ask that question to myself all the time. It's one of the few ways you can stay grounded in this world.

Emotion and hatred are powerful things. Be justified in their application lest you become the same as the monster that visited wrong in your own family.

[Xyun]

please spare me with your pseudo-socratic induction method. I never claimed the bible justifies murder nor that christianity was directly responsible for it. I could dumb down my post so that maybe you could better understand it, but debating with you is sorta like winning at solitaire, a feeling of empty and inconsequencial satisfaction.

Strong accusations require strong evidence to be considered credible.

If this is true then your entire religion is a sham.

[Adex_Xeda]

Seriously Xyun,

I understand if people distrust religious folk.

I understand the distaste for religion in general.

But surely you agree with me that evil doesn't hold a religious affiliation.

Just watching the news or reading a history book we can clearly see that destructive acts have come from all types of people, countries, and organizations.

What's the root? What's the common theme?

Right now, my best guess is:

selfishness pushed to the point to where it harms another.

And that quite "human" trait is common to all of us.

[Rayquan]

Religions = I am right and you need to be right with us

[Rayquan]

Im pretty sure that all human wars somehow started off with religion.

Im not saying human violence started with religion. Why else would there be one group of people vs another group of people.

My imagionary friend is better than yours!

[Jice Virago]

You ignored the central point of my argument, Adex. This is neither new, nor suprising. Allow me to clarify it for you again:

Religion has been a tool for men (Good, Evil, or anywhere in between) to mobilize the masses to their agenda. The entire church of england exists just because one powerful man wanted to divorce his wife. The Divine Right of Kings is an institution introduced by christianity. The KKK, whether you denounce it or not, is a christian organization. Hitler believed himself an instrument of the same god you pray to and altered german society to accept his adapted belief system, but he _was_ a christian. The Inquisition _did_ happen and it _did_ inflict astoundingly barbaric and unhumane tortures on people, with the full sanction of the church. The Crusades used religion as its reason to wage bloody wars who's aftermath are still affecting the modern political landscape centuries later. People engage in discrimination and intimidation towards the minorities they hate all over this country using religion as an excuse. The men behind these acts used religion as a tool to control people and make them carry out their agenda.

I am not saying that the great and mighty boogy man you pray to personally told these men to do these acts and gave them assistance in carrying them out. We both know that I do not even believe in the existance of any god or gods. I am saying that (bereft of the existance of any god or gods) religion is a means by which individual men get others to carry out there agenda.

Further, I am not suggesting that Christianity is the only religion to engage in this behavior. In fact I would go as far to say that ALL world religions (except certain eastern tennents which are more philosophy than religion) do this by their very design. Religion is, at its heart, a way to play upon people's fears to control the masses. Fear is the greatest motivator within humanity. Christianity, however, likes to pretend it is above all of this extreme behavior when in fact it is probably the single biggest offender in this area. The great effort they go through to conceal child molesters in their ranks tells me that they are secretly aware of this state of affairs and well practiced at manipulating world affairs.

Remove religion from the world and people will suddenly need rational reasons to justify their acts of cruelty. Take away the ridiculous "Its God's Will" argument from people, and suddenly it becomes a lot harder to justify hateful acts in the face of rational scrutiny. Unfortunately, the sad truth is your average human being is too ignorant and steeped in ingrained superstition for this type of world wide enlightenment ever to happen.

[Cotto]

When does a belief, become a religion?

I've been wondering, let us say, Bob, a powerful man in history has set down laws, or his own beliefs. Kill/oppress a certain group of people, and you shall be rewarded.
Now, several hundred years later, Bob has turned into a God figure, and his deeds are carried out with fanatical devoution. Can it be claimed people are doing said deeds, as it is their religion (obviously they can physically). Yet this religion started as some guy with power decided to mouth-off. So what do we class them as?

[Adex_Xeda]

Faith fills a void. Faith provides a solution. Sometimes those solutions aren't right. Sometimes those solutions create more voids than they fill.

I haven't tried every religion. I got stuck on the one that I'm at. God filled the void. He provides a reasonable solution. Doing what he says provides good fruit in my life.

Religion is a baskin robins 31 flavors senario. Why in the world would I know mine is right?

Because now I have freedom from my old impulses. Old selfish habits that I could never seem to break, suddenly had no power over me after asked God to mend them.

Do you want to know what peace is? It's being free of your negative vices. It's God giving you the power to bust them up. You become liberated from the inside out. You can look at yourself in the mirror.

God is real, because he provided me real results.

Our secular world says:
"See if it works, see if it's real, then you can trust it"

With God it is:
"By trusting me first, you'll see that I work, you'll see that I'm real."

Most people balk at the trust me first option. Others trust him for a bit but then fail to take advantage of his willingness to improve them. Others simply recoil at the idea of some god type messing with them.

Remember that 3rd Indiana Jones film where Jones is standing at that chasm with no visible way accross. All the facts and logic told him that taking a step would lead to his falling. But for just a moment he took the step anyway and all of a sudden something held him up. After that first step his "faith" was caught and confirmed. That's how God works. At least that's how he showed himself to me.

This is why I think my "flavor" of religion is correct. I hesitate to even label it as religion rather I prefer to call it a relationship.

[Adex_Xeda]

Religion has been a tool for men (Good, Evil, or anywhere in between) to mobilize the masses to their agenda.

Yes, I agree.

If you want to do something questionable, the best way to get everyone to accept it is to frame it as a "good" act. What better way to frame something as good as to apply the mantle of religion to it? "A Just Cause" a "Holy Crusade" etc.

The entire church of england exists just because one powerful man wanted to divorce his wife.

yep

The Divine Right of Kings is an institution introduced by christianity.

I'd say it was an tool created by kings to keep people from questioning their authority. The bible takes a negative view of human kings.

The KKK, whether you denounce it or not, is a christian organization.

It violates to many christain core beliefs to be classified as a christain organization.

Hitler believed himself an instrument of the same god you pray to and altered german society to accept his adapted belief system, but he _was_ a christian.

Sure he used the label "christain" as a mantle to justify his goals, but he was no christain. He was darwinian eugenicist. Very humanistic rather than divine.

The Inquisition _did_ happen and it _did_ inflict astoundingly barbaric and unhumane tortures on people, with the full sanction of the church.

I don't consider the christain faith the same as the Catholic Church.

Catholics added all types of things to a christain foundation to the point where the Catholic church committed evil from time to time. All types of christain churches have departed from the biblical ideal from time to time. It's something that you have to be vigiliant to avoid.

The Crusades used religion as its reason to wage bloody wars who's aftermath are still affecting the modern political landscape centuries later.

Yes, they used the mantle of christainity to justify their personal goals which were at times quite evil.

People engage in discrimination and intimidation towards the minorities they hate all over this country using religion as an excuse. The men behind these acts used religion as a tool to control people and make them carry out their agenda.

Yes they used religion as a tool to commit evil, just like they use a political party, or other organization. Along the way they most likely violated the religion that claimed to champion.

I am not saying that the great and mighty boogy man you pray to personally told these men to do these acts and gave them assistance in carrying them out. We both know that I do not even believe in the existance of any god or gods. I am saying that (bereft of the existance of any god or gods) religion is a means by which individual men get others to carry out there agenda.

Yes, I agree

Religion is, at its heart, a way to play upon people's fears to control the masses. Fear is the greatest motivator within humanity. Christianity, however, likes to pretend it is above all of this extreme behavior when in fact it is probably the single biggest offender in this area.

I draw a distinction between people who have relationships with God as prescribed by the bible, and people who use the label "Christainity" as a tool to further their personal goals. Has the Christain label been used a lot to justify bad things? Yes, it's been a big populational insitution in history, it makes statistical sense that its title would be applied often to justify evil acts.

Remove religion from the world and people will suddenly need rational reasons to justify their acts of cruelty. Take away the ridiculous "Its God's Will" argument from people, and suddenly it becomes a lot harder to justify hateful acts in the face of rational scrutiny.

People will always find ways to paint an evil act as good. It's part of the process of pursuit. Remove religious banners and something else will replace it. The "Justice" flag comes to mind.

[Drasta]

lets throw the salem witch trials into this! the damn christians burned people alive !![/u]

[Mak]

Most of you suck at history, just FYI.

[Drinsic Darkwood]

Most of you suck at history, just FYI.

You suck at making an argument/point, just FYI.

[Mak]

Most of you suck at history, just FYI.

You suck at making an argument/point, just FYI.

I made my point just fine, thanks. I chose not to make an argument. Had I any interest whatsoever of teaching history to people that have no desire to learn it I'd have made the choice to elaborate. I did not.

I could spend a great deal of time trying to deconstruct the actual motivators behind a number of historical events that are already well documented and available for you, should you choose to educate yourself, but frankly, it would be a complete waste of my time as someone like Karae would just come along, skim it cursorily, choose to ignore it, and then tell me I was a moron or a bigot or somesuch. That being the case, I choose to not even bother.

I have no real objection to the statements that "religion" in general has been the ~stated~ reason for some terrible things, but I do have more issues with the idea that christianity, specifically, is bloodier than any other religion.

[Drinsic Darkwood]

Well, I'm just going to tell you that you're wrong. And instead of making any argument to back my point up, I'm going to say it's not worth my time. Man, I own.

[Kargyle]

lets throw the salem witch trials into this! the damn christians burned people alive !![/u]

Not to be nitpicky, but no one was burned at the stake during the Salem Witch Trials. Burning heretics and witches was reserved for the Europeans. People were hung, or expired while the authorities were coaxing a confession.

[masteen]

Jice's argument makes the unprovable assumption that God doesn't exist, and thus all organized religion is a tool of man. Since God's existance can't be verified either way, the whole argument is fallacious.

Also, it's hard to apply those same standards to Islam, as religion and state are in many ways the same entity in an Islamic state. The whole concept of the separation of church and state may seem as silly to them as theocracy is to us.

[Niffoni]

In case anyone cares how the lady from the original news story is doing, the answer can be found here http://www.heraldonline.com/local/story ... 5792c.html

Parrot's death latest threat to woman in prayer case

By Denyse Clark The Herald
(Published August 17‚ 2004)

GREAT FALLS -- About a dozen pagans gathered at Town Hall on Monday to show support for Great Falls resident Darla Wynne. Last week, Wynne returned home from dinner with a friend and discovered one of her parrots had been beheaded and his heart cut out, she said.
A note attached to the back of Little One, Wynne's 8-year-old African gray parrot, said, "You're next!"

"I was frantic looking for his little head, and later I did find his heart," Wynne said tearfully. "They want me to leave this town. I feel so responsible for this. I shouldn't have gone out to dinner."

Great Falls Police Chief Mike Revels confirmed the threatening message to Wynne and said an investigation continues. Police found no evidence of a burglary and were unable to collect fingerprints, Revels said.

"Forensic evidence on the note was destroyed and there was no other physical evidence found," Revels said. "The case is ongoing."

Wynne, a Wiccan high priestess, filed a lawsuit in 2001 against Great Falls for invoking the name of Jesus Christ in council prayers. Federal courts ruled in favor of Wynne, saying the prayers were unconstitutional. Town officials, who have the support of the state attorney general, have appealed the case.

Last week's incident was one of a string of break-ins at Wynne's home. Great Falls police have responded to at least 10 calls of reported vandalism at her residence in the past year or so, Revels said.

"She's had a lot of problems," Revels said. "But we haven't been able to link anybody to any of the incidents."

Many of the town's 2,200 residents regard Wynne as a witch and disapprove of her pagan faith, she said. The vandalism has ranged from destruction of her cars to several of her animals being poisoned, Wynne said.

"No one will say anything," Wynne said. "They think they're protecting their own."

Katie Glenn of Asheville, N.C., said she was in Great Falls on Monday to support Darla and "let everyone know we're human."

"I find it deplorable to see other people, who come in the name of Christianity, judge others so harshly," Glenn said.

Wynne said she has endured numerous verbal and written threats. She received by mail a booklet, "Thou Shalt not Suffer a Witch to Live," and said a man yelled at her, "Witch, you're going down."

Twice last week before her bird was killed, Wynne said she received threats in the mail.

During Monday's Town Council meeting, about a half-dozen supporters gathered with Wynne outside Town Hall. Several more attended the meeting inside. Wynne's friends posted an e-mail about the beheading of her bird and people from both Carolinas, Texas and Detroit came to offer support.

Revels and several uniformed officers attended the meeting to keep everyone safe, the chief said.

Wynne's friend Donna Hudson of Columbia said Wynne has been persecuted by town officials.

"I believe all pagans, basically all Americans, should be concerned about the situation that has developed here," Hudson said. "The very community that should be supporting her is violating her rights."

Mayor H.C. "Speedy" Starnes wouldn't comment directly on the incident, saying only he believed the town still has a strong case.

Wynne said she will continue her court battle and won't leave town. She said she is saddened that her remaining parrot, Baby, is lonely for his companion.

"Birds mimic what they hear," Wynne said. "Baby cries because he's heard me crying and he's lonely for his friend, Little One."

Hmm… let’s see… beheadings and eviscerations used as a scare tactic to silence and subdue infidels…

You know, I feel like I’ve seen this sort of thing somewhere else in the world before, but I can’t for the life of me remember where… *hums “It’s A Small World After All”…

[Adex_Xeda]

Man there must be lead in the water in that town or something.

[*~*stragi*~*]

fucking witch

[Kelshara]

heh tempting to go down there and wear some old Norse symbols.. I do have several Thor hammers around here!

[Drasta]

the reason they can't find out who did it is because they are all in it togather

[masteen]

I just read the bit about the dioses invalidating a girl's communion because her wafer didn't have wheat in it. The funny part is all those retarded bishops can't figure out why Catholocism is dying. Fucking idolators, the lot of them.

[*~*stragi*~*]

I saw that story on CNN last night.. they made it sound as if it wasn't being questioned at all by the church, but the mother herself sent the question into the vatican because it is one of the cannons that saying that the wafer must contain wheat (or something in wheat, i don't remember) and she wanted to be sure. The bishop at the church even gave her a rice wafer instead.

[Sylvos]

wow, you guys managed to make me wish you dead IRL so that I wouldn't have to read another moronic christianity is evil and its happy go lucky defense I mean FFS. You say the same shit over and over again in the same "one up game". Religion = personal preferance. Leave it at that.

[Kelshara]

wtf does personal preference have to do with the abuse going on here? And wishing people dead is so.. christian!

[Sylvos]

you mean Christian.

[*~*stragi*~*]

i think he means you need to get the adobe tampon out of your vagina and let the blood flow free. theres a huge blockage right now.

[Sylvos]

IRL PK Stragi

[Lynxe]

The topic of religion and resulting flames that come with it, frequent VV almost enough to warrent it's own forum...

[Niffoni]

Probably because this board is frequented by the two loudest, pushiest, most arrogant, frothing-at-the-mouth fanatical and obnoxious religious groups... Christians and Athiests.

[Rayquan]

lets get off violence, what about souls?

Christians believe that u have a soul. Atheists believe you are nervs and brainwaves ( i know, i cant explain it the way i want to, but u know what i mean) that make u act the way u do, not a "soul" controlling your "temple" (your body).

What about retards? Are they just a soul trying to act in a retarded body but cant?

The bible does not teach about the other 30 galaxies we have found. It does not teach about mental problems.

If adam and eve were created, and later on damned into sickness and death (as in, death was not an option before they dis obeyd god), how did they live? Immortal? Why was the dimension of time ORIGONALLY created if no creature ever got sick or died?

Only God can exist out of the dimension of time. Where do the people (or souls) in heaven or hell exist?

When you're in heaven or hell, what do u look like? do u look like your child self, adult self, or old self? Do u look how u looked when u died?

What do babies who die (namly abortion) do in heaven? Sit there and be a fetus for all enternity?

Jesus was not who the Jews said he was. The jews wrote that the Messiah was supposed to be a warrior come to free them from the romans, aka The Sword of God.

Adam and Eve. I read in the muslim bible (or what i found on the internet and what i heard elsewhere) that it was origoinally Adam and Lilith, and were both created at the same time. Lilith did not please adam, so she was not killed (cuz there was no death yet) and instead sent out of the garden, into the desert earth. Then adam asked god for Eve and she was made from his rib bone. Lilith was out in the deserts for her lifetime (which was probably almost 1000 years, just like everyone elses age at that time) she had to live in caves, hiding from the sun, drink the blood of reptiles and eat them for food (Where vampires come from)

Debate? Thanks

[Thess]

From what I know, Lillith was just a satire of the creation story.

[Adex_Xeda]

The Lillith story is normally associated with Jewish folklore rather than Islam.

When my muslim co-worker gets back from his vaciation I'll ask him if he knows of any Lillith references.