McCain will be the next U.S. President (IMO)

[Canelek]

Good lord. It's amazing how you can sometimes be such a clear-headed realist and sometimes advocate such blatant fantasy.

The term is Winnergy (TM)!

[Nick]

What is it with Americans and this short memory/rose-tinted view of Powell. Presumably a bit too much reading of online articles riddled with pro-powell platitudes.

Back in reality, he has about as much credibility as any of the rest of the Bush idiots. Maybe it's different in the US, but in the rest of the developed world, "Oh I really regret being the messenger boy come on guys IT WASN't MY FAULT amirite?" doesn't hold even the tiniest amount of legitimacy.

Saying he has even a tenth of the integrity of Obama is pretty absurd imo.

[Winnow]

Also, see the Obama thread for a Colin Powell quote in which he supports Obama's approach to diplomacy... Colin Powell has more credibility in such matters than either McCain or Obama, as far as I'm concerned.

The major problem many people run into when analyzing presidential elections is that they want all of the issues to matter. I agree with Colin Powell but that's not going to matter in an election. They really don't factor in as much as you'd like them to. Fear and doubt play a large part.

If nothing happens between now and the election, Obama has an excellent shot as winning the presidency. If even a minor incident happens (something on the level of the attack on the USS Cole), McCain will win.

The republican party benefits from Bush being a lame duck. It's not as easy for the democrats to attack McCain because of Bush's incompetence.

Integrity doesn't win elections. It's very possible I might vote for Obama.

I don't have faith that the general American population takes the time to weigh all of the issues though. Joe Redneck sure won't.

[Sueven]

Back in reality, he has about as much credibility as any of the rest of the Bush idiots. Maybe it's different in the US, but in the rest of the developed world, "Oh I really regret being the messenger boy come on guys IT WASN't MY FAULT amirite?" doesn't hold even the tiniest amount of legitimacy.

Some of us IN the United States (and some without) realize a few things:

1. America existed prior to the Bush administration, and many people who were in some way involved during the Bush administration have also done other things during their lives.

2. Administrations are coalitions of people and the fact that one person is in some way associated with an administration does not mean that said person is synonymous with that administration.

That said, Powell's testimony before the United Nations was absolutely a low point of what has otherwise been a long and distinguished career.

Also note that I didn't say he had more INTEGRITY than Obama, I said he has more CREDIBILITY than Obama.

[Nick]

Potato potaato, he has zero credibility. Powell made his bed, he should lie in it.

Consider a murderer. Hyperbole (maybe not?). You aren't going to defend him by saying "Oh well he was a fireman for 25 years before he went and blew up 30 innocent individuals".

I guess it depends on whether your priority is to defend a Bush administration member, or common sense.

[Spang]

He was one of the first people to leave the Bush administration. That should count for something!

[Animale]

McCain is in a tough position right now. He needs to shore up the Republican base in terms of the Strict Conservatives (McCain-Feingold, Immigration, etc.) while maintaining his appeal to independent voters which is the cornerstone of his own personal "base." He also needs to both run with the Bush political machine (which he has made a point of playing nice with him in the last 4 years so that will happen), while again running AWAY from Bush to appeal to the Independent voters that will ultimately (I believe) decide this election in such swing states as Ohio, Virginia, Florida, and Pennsylvania.

Animale

As for Powell - I foresee a book in his future that will rip the current President's legacy wide open.

[cadalano]

remember guys, Nick is a dipshit

[Funkmasterr]

remember guys, Nick is a dipshit

I wouldn't say dipshit. I would say he comes off as full of teen angst, has an unfounded (even though he must think otherwise) hatred for the US, and thinks he is far more intelligent and far more well informed than he is or ever will be. Not that I'm surprised, 1 of the 3 of these is a characteristic that is almost required of anyone that lives in Europe. He also lacks the ability to distinguish between fact and opinion, and is very quick to claim that his opinion is shared by "everyone in the world that isn't in the US". But I wouldn't say dipshit.

That being said, looks like I'll be voting McCain, I'm not thrilled about him, but I think he is decent and I will do everything in my power to stop satan or the terrorist in disguise from being elected.

[Forthe]

Don't fret Nick, I've seen plenty of posts from Usadians that are viscious towards Powell.

Personally I feel bad for Powell. I believe he is a good man. He was a soldier following orders. We know he made arguments against the clusterfuck that eventually occurred. We also know he ended up contributing to it (UN presentation). I feel he has paid the price for that.

If I thought that presentation was responsible for Iraq or made it more likely I would be more critical but I do not think it made any difference. GWB only went to the UN due to the arguments of Powell and Blair and the whole UN thing was not going to stop the invasion, only delay it.

[Nick]

Going by virtually every Funkmasterr and that other guys posts, ignorance must indeed be bliss.

[Canelek]

As a USAdian, I am ready for a person that brings hope to the peoples. Although it is unlikely we will have that sense of nationalism that we had 40 or so years ago, a vision would be nice. Too long has our leadership externalized the problem(s).

[cadalano]

dipshit says what?

[*~*stragi*~*]

remember guys, Nick is a dipshit

I wouldn't say dipshit. I would say he comes off as full of teen angst, has an unfounded (even though he must think otherwise) hatred for the US, and thinks he is far more intelligent and far more well informed than he is or ever will be. Not that I'm surprised, 1 of the 3 of these is a characteristic that is almost required of anyone that lives in Europe. He also lacks the ability to distinguish between fact and opinion, and is very quick to claim that his opinion is shared by "everyone in the world that isn't in the US". But I wouldn't say dipshit.

That being said, looks like I'll be voting McCain, I'm not thrilled about him, but I think he is decent and I will do everything in my power to stop satan or the terrorist in disguise from being elected.

drolgin lives in europe and he's a p. good guy

[Forthe]

drolgin lives in europe and he's a p. good guy

The Swedes are a good bunch.

[Canelek]

drolgin lives in europe and he's a p. good guy

The Swedes are a good bunch.

/zing!

Drolgin forståd lidt Svensk!

[Noysyrump]

Going by virtually every Funkmasterr and that other guys posts, ignorance must indeed be bliss.

Is it nick? you tell us.

[*~*stragi*~*]

drolgin lives in europe and he's a p. good guy

The Swedes are a good bunch.

he lives in denmark not sweden
this means he is the 2nd best viking after norwegians and before stupid swedes

[Winnow]

*bump*

McCain's doing so well, the rep race has been forgotten!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'd be shocked if Obama doesn't win it all in November. Two great candidates though. Should be a great 9 months.

[Siji]

As a USAdian, I am ready for a person that brings hope to the peoples. Although it is unlikely we will have that sense of nationalism that we had 40 or so years ago, a vision would be nice. Too long has our leadership externalized the problem(s).

Agreed. Inspiring hope is going to inspire people to come out and vote. If Obama gets the nomination I think we're going to see record numbers of voters.

[Spang]

Obama is someone worth voting for! I will be voting for the first time!

[Forthe]

stragi everyone knows that Drolgin is really a swede

WTF the NYT smacking McCain around like a bitch today.

This election has more drama than a soap opera.

[Fash]

Pretty interesting story on the McCain response to the NYT.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8629.html

Sen. John McCain’s presidential campaign claimed vindication Thursday night after a sophisticated 24-hour counterattack turned a potentially lethal story in The New York Times into a conservative call to arms.

The piece about McCain’s friendly relations with a telecommunications lobbyist—long-discussed in political circles and planned for weeks by McCain operatives—was the first test of his ability to confront a public-relations crisis since becoming the GOP’s presumptive nominee.

But the reaction may have said as much about the mindset of the conservative movement on the brink of the general election as it did about McCain and his team.

“Even if they want to quibble within our own tribe, they’ll circle the wagons when we’re attacked by the Times,” said McCain campaign senior adviser Charlie Black.

Few commentators on the right—including some who regularly denounce ethical lapses or weaknesses of the flesh among Democrats—paused to assess seriously whether the Times’s suggestions of conflict of interest were well-founded.

Instead, many swallowed past misgivings about McCain to rally to his defense, on the apparent theory that anyone under assault by the most powerful institution in the mainstream media could not be all bad.

“For conservatives, the New York Times is shorthand for everything they distrust,” said John Pitney, a political science professor at Claremont McKenna College and former Republican operative.

It was a vivid illustration of the power of the longstanding anti-media grievance among conservatives. In the past, McCain’s cozy relationships with establishment journalists (“My base,” as he sometimes jokes) has been a major reason the Arizona senator is viewed with such jaundiced eyes by many on the right. McCain was able to leverage these feelings to turn a potentially devastating story into something that arguably lifts his political standing.

“We feel that the story has been met with widespread condemnation,” said Jill Hazelbaker, the campaign communications director. “We faced our first crisis of the general election, we handled it and we’ll try to move past it tomorrow.”

McCain campaign officials began their day-long effort by working furiously behind the scenes to reassure donors, and coordinate an anti-Times message with Republican supporters and conservative commentators.

Since November, McCain’s campaign had feared the story and its impact. But the delay also allowed McCain’s backers to plot exactly how they would respond.

An hour after The Times posted the story at about 7:45 p.m., Hazelbaker issued a scathing response labeling it “a hit and run smear campaign.” Soon after, the campaign sent reporters the extensive response prepared for the Times back in December. After that, the press received excerpts from the appearance of Robert Bennett, the Washington lawyer hired by McCain to try to deal with the newspaper on the story, on Fox’s “Hannity & Colmes.”

At the same time, McCain backers were gathering up favorable reaction and analysis on the cable networks and forwarding it to conservative media voices and other opinion makers on the right.

“We wanted to be fast, forward-leaning and as open and transparent as possible,” said a McCain aide involved in the effort.

Craig Shirley, a public relations consultant working for McCain, called conservative media critic Brent Bozell—a McCain skeptic. Bozell, who heads the media watchdog group, Media Research Center, then issued a statement ripping the Times while defending McCain. Shirley’s firm sent that criticism, along with comments from Pat Buchanan, out to all conservative contacts, ranging from radio hosts to producers to bloggers. As one of the first conservative leaders to come to McCain's defense, Bozell provided ideological cover to others, including morning talk show host Joe Scarborough—another McCain skeptic—to support McCain and go after the Times.

In late-night e-mails to reporters and early-morning appearances on television, McCain’s mouthpieces took the ferocious and unrelenting approach of a political campaign.

Before breakfast, Patrick Hynes, a blogger on contract with McCain, pieced together the reaction of outraged bloggers on the right and blasted an e-mail titled: “What Some Folks are Saying about Times Hit Job.”

Bennett said on NBC’s “Today” show that the article was “a non-story” and “a hatchet job.” On MSNBC’s “Morning Joe,” he called it “a real smear.”

Rick Davis, McCain’s campaign manager, went on CBS’ “The Early Show” and called it “the worst kind of tabloid journalism” and a “fabrication.”

A few hours later, Davis blasted a fundraising e-mail with the subject line "Here We Go," urging followers to "help to counteract the liberal establishment and fight back against the New York Times by making an immediate contribution today."

Not long after the network and cable morning news shows led with the story, top McCain supporters appeared on the same programs to chastise the Times and denigrate the story. Conservative publications including The American Spectator and Human Events weighed in to defend McCain. By late morning, Shirley’s firm had lined up a half-dozen conservative leaders to attack the Times, and booked guests on dozens of radio and cable television shows. In addition, Black, Bennett and Davis all made the rounds.

Also on in the morning and for the rest of the day was Todd Harris, a top aide in Fred Thompson’s campaign who had previously worked for McCain in 2000.

The Times did not immediately defend itself, letting the story speak for itself until Executive Editor Bill Keller issued a statement Thursday morning saying the account was “nailed down to our satisfaction.”

With silence from the paper, the McCain campaign was free to frame the debate.

While top surrogates lit into the paper, McCain himself and his wife, Cindy, appeared before reporters at 9 A.M. in Toledo, Ohio. Like the surrogates, the McCains sought to lessen the focus on the underlying charges and spotlight the decision of the paper to publish.

But instead of lashing out at the “largest liberal newspaper in America” as Black had on CNN earlier in the morning, the McCains calmly and repeatedly expressed “disappointment” in the Times. As he does at most all of his press conferences, McCain answered every question and aides made no attempt to intervene.

While this was going on, Black, Davis, Hazelbaker and other McCain aides were telephoning members of Congress, top donors and other GOP opinion-makers to ensure that they were well-armed with the response message.

"Facts on NYT story” was the subject line of a 9:43 a.m. email from Hazelbaker to McCain backers.

Later in the morning, two top aides from McCain’s 2000 campaign, press aides Dan Schnur and Howard Opinsky, contacted Politico without prompting to say they weren’t the sources for the Times story and to cast doubt on the piece.

At noon, the McCain campaign got perhaps its most important break. Rush Limbaugh, who has been the senator’s worst tormentor since he effectively seized the GOP nomination, came on the air and immediately denounced The Times.

Limbaugh warned McCain, who has close relations with the press, that such a story was typical of what he calls the “drive-by media.” But he mostly shredded the paper and the story, calling it “Page Six-type gossip.”

When the network evening news broadcasts came on, all three of the pieces brimmed with McCain’s messages – and two of them carried clips of Limbaugh hammering The New York Times.

"Tactically, the McCain campaign executed flawlessly and quickly to put this story back in the box,” said GOP strategist Phil Musser, a former executive director of the Republican Governors Association. “They re-shaped the coverage from dawn to dusk, avoided any big name conservative defections and were actually monetizing the event online at the Grey Lady's expense.”

“Ironically,” says Musser, who supported Mitt Romney’s presidential bid, “the larger impact of the whole story may well be to further galvanize McCain's leadership position, especially if it goes away quickly.”

[Fairweather Pure]

I'm sure his trophey wife (ex drug addict) could give a shit less if it's true or not.

[Forthe]

The only thing that strikes me as interesting is why would McCain bring in Bob Bennett. A suspicious move IMO.

[Siji]

It's hard to believe that the NYT would publish a story, at this point, about McCain of this nature without some fairly definitive proof. It should be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Fash]

New York Times, part 2... McCain’s Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/po ... ref=slogin

WASHINGTON — The question has nagged at the parents of Americans born outside the continental United States for generations: Dare their children aspire to grow up and become president? In the case of Senator John McCain of Arizona, the issue is becoming more than a matter of parental daydreaming.

Mr. McCain’s likely nomination as the Republican candidate for president and the happenstance of his birth in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936 are reviving a musty debate that has surfaced periodically since the founders first set quill to parchment and declared that only a “natural-born citizen” can hold the nation’s highest office.

Almost since those words were written in 1787 with scant explanation, their precise meaning has been the stuff of confusion, law school review articles, whisper campaigns and civics class debates over whether only those delivered on American soil can be truly natural born. To date, no American to take the presidential oath has had an official birthplace outside the 50 states.

“There are powerful arguments that Senator McCain or anyone else in this position is constitutionally qualified, but there is certainly no precedent,” said Sarah H. Duggin, an associate professor of law at Catholic University who has studied the issue extensively. “It is not a slam-dunk situation.”

Mr. McCain was born on a military installation in the Canal Zone, where his mother and father, a Navy officer, were stationed. His campaign advisers say they are comfortable that Mr. McCain meets the requirement and note that the question was researched for his first presidential bid in 1999 and reviewed again this time around.

But given mounting interest, the campaign recently asked Theodore B. Olson, a former solicitor general now advising Mr. McCain, to prepare a detailed legal analysis. “I don’t have much doubt about it,” said Mr. Olson, who added, though, that he still needed to finish his research.

Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina and one of Mr. McCain’s closest allies, said it would be incomprehensible to him if the son of a military member born in a military station could not run for president.

“He was posted there on orders from the United States government,” Mr. Graham said of Mr. McCain’s father. “If that becomes a problem, we need to tell every military family that your kid can’t be president if they take an overseas assignment.”

The phrase “natural born” was in early drafts of the Constitution. Scholars say notes of the Constitutional Convention give away little of the intent of the framers. Its origin may be traced to a letter from John Jay to George Washington, with Jay suggesting that to prevent foreigners from becoming commander in chief, the Constitution needed to “declare expressly” that only a natural-born citizen could be president.

Ms. Duggin and others who have explored the arcane subject in depth say legal argument and basic fairness may indeed be on the side of Mr. McCain, a longtime member of Congress from Arizona. But multiple experts and scholarly reviews say the issue has never been definitively resolved by either Congress or the Supreme Court.

Ms. Duggin favors a constitutional amendment to settle the matter. Others have called on Congress to guarantee that Americans born outside the national boundaries can legitimately see themselves as potential contenders for the Oval Office.

“They ought to have the same rights,” said Don Nickles, a former Republican senator from Oklahoma who in 2004 introduced legislation that would have established that children born abroad to American citizens could harbor presidential ambitions without a legal cloud over their hopes. “There is some ambiguity because there has never been a court case on what ‘natural-born citizen’ means.”

Mr. McCain’s situation is different from those of the current governors of California and Michigan, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jennifer M. Granholm, who were born in other countries and were first citizens of those nations, rendering them naturalized Americans ineligible under current interpretations. The conflict that could conceivably ensnare Mr. McCain goes more to the interpretation of “natural born” when weighed against intent and decades of immigration law.

Mr. McCain is not the first person to find himself in these circumstances. The last Arizona Republican to be a presidential nominee, Barry Goldwater, faced the issue. He was born in the Arizona territory in 1909, three years before it became a state. But Goldwater did not win, and the view at the time was that since he was born in a continental territory that later became a state, he probably met the standard.

It also surfaced in the 1968 candidacy of George Romney, who was born in Mexico, but again was not tested. The former Connecticut politician Lowell P. Weicker Jr., born in Paris, sought a legal analysis when considering the presidency, an aide said, and was assured he was eligible. Franklin D. Roosevelt Jr. was once viewed as a potential successor to his father, but was seen by some as ineligible since he had been born on Campobello Island in Canada. The 21st president, Chester A. Arthur, whose birthplace is Vermont, was rumored to have actually been born in Canada, prompting some to question his eligibility.

Quickly recognizing confusion over the evolving nature of citizenship, the First Congress in 1790 passed a measure that did define children of citizens “born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States to be natural born.” But that law is still seen as potentially unconstitutional and was overtaken by subsequent legislation that omitted the “natural-born” phrase.

Mr. McCain’s citizenship was established by statutes covering the offspring of Americans abroad and laws specific to the Canal Zone as Congress realized that Americans would be living and working in the area for extended periods. But whether he qualifies as natural-born has been a topic of Internet buzz for months, with some declaring him ineligible while others assert that he meets all the basic constitutional qualifications — a natural-born citizen at least 35 years of age with 14 years of residence.

“I don’t think he has any problem whatsoever,” said Mr. Nickles, a McCain supporter. “But I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if somebody is going to try to make an issue out of it. If it goes to court, I think he will win.”

Lawyers who have examined the topic say there is not just confusion about the provision itself, but uncertainty about who would have the legal standing to challenge a candidate on such grounds, what form a challenge could take and whether it would have to wait until after the election or could be made at any time.

In a paper written 20 years ago for the Yale Law Journal on the natural-born enigma, Jill Pryor, now a lawyer in Atlanta, said that any legal challenge to a presidential candidate born outside national boundaries would be “unpredictable and unsatisfactory.”

“If I were on the Supreme Court, I would decide for John McCain,” Ms. Pryor said in a recent interview. “But it is certainly not a frivolous issue.”

This is an interesting point, to me... I wonder if the topic will be considered by the courts.

My parents were stationed in Italy when I was conceived... I was born in the US. To this day they claim that a primary motivation for pulling whatever strings were necessary to get back to the US in time, was so that the Presidency was at least an option. While I know I won't ever be President, I enjoy this piece of my history.

[Winnow]

I was born in Germany on a military base. The only difference between being born in Germany (on a U.S. Base) from U.S. soil is that it gave me the option to chose German citizenship over U.S. I didn't take the oath to become a United States Citizen until I was ~16 years old. I did so at that time because my mother was afraid I might be drafted into the German army if I didn't choose. (Cold War era causing the paranoia)

[Aardor]

I was born in Germany on a military base. The only difference between being born in Germany (on a U.S. Base) from U.S. soil is that it gave me the option to chose German citizenship over U.S. I didn't take the oath to become a United States Citizen until I was ~16 years old. I did so at that time because my mother was afraid I might be drafted into the German army if I didn't choose. (Cold War era causing the paranoia)

So you can't be the next US President?

[Fash]

oops!

"I'm a proud conservative liberal republic -- conservative Republican. Hello, easy there. Let me say this. I am a proud conservative Republican and both of my possible or likely opponents are liberal Democrats."

[Fairweather Pure]

New York Times, part 2... McCain’s Canal Zone Birth Prompts Queries About Whether That Rules Him Out

This is just getting the topic in the open. Since McCain stands no chance, the Reps are going to try the Terminator out in 8 more years. They need this to be addressed in the meantime.

[Winnow]

This is just getting the topic in the open. Since McCain stands no chance, the Reps are going to try the Terminator out in 8 more years. They need this to be addressed in the meantime.

Arnold's situation is nothing like McCain's. McCain was born to U.S. citizens in a U.S. territory while they were assigned by the government abroad. Arnold was born to Austrian parents in Austria and moved to the United States after he was an adult and then became a U.S. citizen.

I highly doubt Arnold will ever be eligible to become president.

[Fash]

Anything is possible if the Constitution is ruled a 'living document.' Combine this topic with Immigration, and who knows, we could have a new movement on the left spouting about how immigrants are treated unfairly because they are denied the opportunity of becoming President.

[Fairweather Pure]

This is just getting the topic in the open. Since McCain stands no chance, the Reps are going to try the Terminator out in 8 more years. They need this to be addressed in the meantime.

Arnold's situation is nothing like McCain's. McCain was born to U.S. citizens in a U.S. territory while they were assigned by the government abroad. Arnold was born to Austrian parents in Austria and moved to the United States after he was an adult and then became a U.S. citizen.

I highly doubt Arnold will ever be eligible to become president.

That's the beauty of it. It's not the same at all, but it's getting the topic out for discussion. Just wait and see!

[Ashur]

Anything is possible if the Constitution is ruled a 'living document.' Combine this topic with Immigration, and who knows, we could have a new movement on the left spouting about how immigrants are treated unfairly because they are denied the opportunity of becoming President.

Um, they are.

If someone is a US citizen, they shouldn't be denied the opportunity to be all they can be. The rule was put in to prevent a foreign ruler from being installed, but we're dealing with a reality where naturalized US citizens, who would be considered good candidates for the office, are cockblocked. I think with the ability to impeach and the "safety net" of the Electoral College that the rule is as outdated as the law having to stop every mile to fire off flares to scare off cattle when driving your automobile on country roads.

[Canelek]

Very good points there. I agree.

However, having a foreign-born presidential candidate would have the southern religious conservatives seething even more since they hate foreigners almost as much as they hate black people.

[Fairweather Pure]

Very good points there. I agree.

However, having a foreign-born presidential candidate would have the southern religious conservatives seething even more since they hate foreigners almost as much as they hate black people.

Or else they could swing some from the left onto thier platform. McCain is a great example of how you don't have to be a right wing Regan wannabe in order to secure your party's nomination. He won't win, and he's alianated many of his fellow Republicans in the process for that exact reason, but he is going to get the nomination.

[Canelek]

In order to capture a younger demographic, a little left is the way to go. That is what I really liked about McCain 8 years ago. Strong fiscal ideals and not-so-much traditional conservative. However, it can be a rough ride for the republican party candidate to seem legitimate in the eyes of the party members who sometimes rate their favorites based on how hardcore right-wing they are.

I think both parties are generally retarded and do more to create societal rifts than do anything useful.

[Noysyrump]

Um, they are.

If someone is a US citizen, they shouldn't be denied the opportunity to be all they can be. The rule was put in to prevent a foreign ruler from being installed, but we're dealing with a reality where naturalized US citizens, who would be considered good candidates for the office, are cockblocked. I think with the ability to impeach and the "safety net" of the Electoral College that the rule is as outdated as the law having to stop every mile to fire off flares to scare off cattle when driving your automobile on country roads.

The Old Man kept at his court such boys of twelve years old as seemed to him destined to become courageous men. When the Old Man sent them into the garden in groups of four, ten or twenty, he gave them hashish to drink. They slept for three days, then they were carried sleeping into the garden where he had them awakened.

When these young men woke, and found themselves in the garden with all these marvelous things, they truly believed themselves to be in paradise. And these damsels were always with them in songs and great entertainments; they received everything they asked for, so that they would never have left that garden of their own will.

And when the Old Man wished to kill someone, he would take him and say: ‘Go and do this thing. I do this because I want to make you return to paradise’. And the assassins go and perform the deed willingly.

— The Adventures of Marco Polo

A sleeper cell refers to a cell, or isolated grouping of sleeper agents that belong to an intelligence network or organization. The cell "sleeps" (lies dormant) inside a target population until it receives orders or decides to act. (See also Mole (espionage), Double agent, Sleeper agent.) A sleeper cell is a somewhat special case, if, for example, it is clandestine until activated, as with a sabotage or terror unit. Still, there can be cells (or singleton agents) who are both clandestine and sleeper. While most WWII UK espionage agents sent to the UK were almost immediately caught and neutralized, a few, who infiltrated an area long ahead of time, and set up a clock repair shop or something else innocent that was also near a naval base, were only activated when there was a specific operational requirement. Sleepers also provide support services, such as emergency escape routes, backup communications, etc.

So when at "war" with a culture that invented the assassin, and uses sleeper cell tactics, you want to let anyone become our president?

If you remove the electoral college, our presidents will be decided by the tri-city area and Los Angeles/ San Francisco only, as since that is where most of our population is, they will decide who to elect! Leaving everyone else disenfranchised.

By the way, in Idaho (I think) if your automobile spooks a horse, you are still required to dismantle it.

[Nick]

You aren't making even the slightest bit of sense Noysy.

[Noysyrump]

You aren't making even the slightest bit of sense Noysy.

was i supposed to?

[Fairweather Pure]

If you are allowed to sign up for the military and die for this country, you should be eligible to run it.

Case closed.

[Nick]

was i supposed to?

yes

[Noysyrump]

was i supposed to?

yes

Well lemme splain den. No too long, lemmee sum-up.

I was going to post the defenitions of ancient assassins of persia (but I liked that marco polo bit) and Sleeper cells, to point out that the peoples upon whom, we have a conflict presently going, that they have a history of sneekily planting peoples into a foriegn culture to spring forthe later with a deadly trap! So, in short. If we let anyone not born as an american run for office, we make it real easy for some muslim to devote his life to counquering us from within...

Oh wait did I say that outloud? *cough*

[Boogahz]

I was going to post the defenitions of ancient assassins of persia (but I liked that marco polo bit) and Sleeper cells, to point out that the peoples upon whom, we have a conflict presently going, that they have a history of sneekily planting peoples into a foriegn culture to spring forthe later with a deadly trap! So, in short. If we let anyone not born as an american run for office, we make it real easy for some muslim to devote his life to counquering us from within...

Oh wait did I say that outloud? *cough*

The Hashishans sent by the Old Man in the Mountain probably wouldn't have been set up to infiltrate a nation for anything like that. The CIA on the other hand...

[Noysyrump]

It was common for them to plant a "sleeper" assassin in a high court of another nation's king. And should the need arize, assassinate that king should they offend the wrong people.

[Boogahz]

It was common for them to plant a "sleeper" assassin in a high court of another nation's king. And should the need arize, assassinate that king should they offend the wrong people.

That would apply to running for President how? Once again, I think the CIA would be much more suited to place someone in power than a group of assassins...seeing as how assassins...assassinate.

[Noysyrump]

It was common for them to plant a "sleeper" assassin in a high court of another nation's king. And should the need arize, assassinate that king should they offend the wrong people.

That would apply to running for President how? Once again, I think the CIA would be much more suited to place someone in power than a group of assassins...seeing as how assassins...assassinate.

Didnt I sum that up? If you let foreigners become president, then you make it TOO EASY for an islamic fundamentalist to decide to assassinate this country as a whole, by becoming its leader and ruiningsses it!

[Ashur]

Noysyrump, I get it.

Allow me to use some analogies drawn from popular fiction you may have read.

I read Executive Orders by Tom Clancy. In it there is a naturalized Iranian (Aref "Jeff" Ramon) who makes it onto the President's protective detail and then gets his orders (he was indeed your very example of an Islamic sleeper agent) to terminate his charge. The concept of Sleeper Agents is well understood.

That said, the subversion of someone to a political/social cause can take eleventy-billion forms.

The same author, carrying my example forward, utilizes in Cardinal of the Kremlin (Colonel Misha Filatov) and The Hunt for Red October (Captain Marco Ramius), Heroes of the Soviet Union who become willing traitors/moles/defectors when they come to realizations that their cause is not the correct one through life experiences.

My point: If we're allowing someone to become a CITIZEN of the US. They shouldn't be a second class citizen. They should be given the whole enchilada.