Why is a hypocrite bad?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 12:31 pm

You know we all have different viewpoints about things around here, yet all of us hate the hypocrite.

It's like a moral rule or something, "Don't be a hypocrite"

Where did that get started? Why is being hypocritical bad?

Is it somehow linked to fairness and justice?

Where did that come from?

Are there other places in this world where hypocrisy accepted and doesn't ruffle feathers?

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » June 18, 2003, 12:37 pm

When a person commits hypocracy, they are in essence contradicting themselves. To contradict oneself is to lack common sense, and it is seen in the eyes of others as mental weakness.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » June 18, 2003, 12:40 pm

A hypocrite is a person who expresses opinions and beliefs that they do not hold. It can also be applied when a person states two different belief systems/opnions that oppose each other.

It's an easy way to label someone with negative connotation when they make contradictory statements or spout 2 different opinions/beliefs about something that doesn't quite mesh.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 18, 2003, 12:42 pm

Oscar Wilde (i think) had an interesting quote about hypocrits:

"the specific danger of the hypocrit is that they are often telling the truth"

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 12:56 pm

I like Xyun's statement. A hypocrite might be considered mentally weak.

I still don't think I've hit the root of this.....

Classic example:

A kid's father tells the kid not to smoke, yet the father smokes.

When you hear this situation, you think ill of the father. Why? What emotions are triggered there?

For me I hear the old voice "It's not fair!"

How about you guys? Anything else trigger?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 18, 2003, 1:08 pm

Do as I say, not as I do.

It's easy to admire one who leads by example.

Hypocricy breeds contempt.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 18, 2003, 1:09 pm

A smoking father telling his kid to not smoke is not hypocrisy, it's the father protecting the health of the child. Now if the father told the kid not to smoke because he hated smokers, then that's hypocrisy.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 18, 2003, 1:14 pm

I think of a line from an old Metallica song "Dyer's Eve"

Dear Mother
Dear Father
What is this hell you have put me through?
Believer
Deceiver
Day in, day out, live my life through you
Pushed onto me what's wrong or right
Hidden from this thing that they call “life”

Dear Mother
Dear Father
Every thought I'd think you'd disapprove
Curator
Dictator
Always censoring my every move
Children are seen but are not heard
Tear out everything inspired

Innocence
Torn from me without your shelter
Barred reality
I'm living blindly

Dear Mother
Dear Father
Time has frozen still what's left to be
Hear nothing
Say nothing
Cannot face the fact I think for me
No guarantee, it's life as-is
But damn you for not giving me my chance

Dear Mother
Dear Father
You've clipped my wings before
I learned to fly
Unspoiled
Unspoken
I've outgrown that fucking lullaby
Same thing I've always heard from you,
“Do as I say, not as I do”

Innocence
Torn from me without your shelter
Barred reality
I'm living blindly

I'm in hell without you
Cannot cope without you two
Shocked at the world that I see
Innocent victim, please rescue me

Dear Mother
Dear Father
Hidden in your world you've made for me
I'm seething
I'm bleeding
Ripping wounds in me that never heal
Undying spite I feel for you
Living out this hell you always knew

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 18, 2003, 1:24 pm

I'm not sure that is a good example. To me that is more of, as you state "it's not fair."

There are many things that we do as adults which in the strongest sense we tell children not to do. Example, don't lie. Easy one right, it's wrong to tell a lie... but don't tell Aunt Bunny she looks fat in her Easter dress if she ask you and don't tell Meemaw you don't like the wooden photo book she made in her "Adult" learning class. "But you said don't lie?"

As adults I think we realize that for the betterment of society and the "feel good" psychological health of others it's ok to... "stretch the truth" just a little. Maybe it's that most people feel that belittling someone morally worse than not being totally honest... who knows.

To me, lets focus on Religion a minute, it's the person who Preaches one thing to other consenting adults then consistantly acts opposite to that. Example, pretty much every Televangelist. You live in TX, do you remember Revrend Tilton from the early 90s? That ex-used car salesman had hundreds of thousands of elderly people sending checks to him for a prayer cloth and on TV he would PRAY for God to answer all their prayers. Come to find out he was taking the checks and throwing away all the prayer requests.

I'm a Christian, I have a brain and I choose to belive in "a 2000 year old mythology." The problem with most Christians... let me take that back, the problem with most PEOPLE is that they don't want to think. They don't want to make a choice. It's much easier to be told what to do, where to go and what to think. My perspective is that the Gospel is liberating but Nietzsche's views were based on something... they were based on what he saw mainstream religion do to much of the population in Europe. It's those people, the sheep, who wind up as hypocrits most of the time IMHO.

Sure we all are going to find a topic that we haven't thought all the way through. To me it's difficult to understand the whole "I'M AGAINST ABORTION BUT FOR THE DEATH PENALITY!" line of thinking but maybe sometime I'll get it (LOL!). But I would hope that we faced with that situation we go back and consider the other possibilities... to ask ourselves "am I being a hypocrit?" am I taking advantage of others because they are mentally inferior or am I mentally inferior? Maybe it's that inferiority or fear of inferiority that makes it "wrong" I mean, come one, no one wants to be an idiot... do they?

Marb

edit - dang I type slow these days, well said Krimson

rhyae · Post by **rhyae** » June 18, 2003, 1:38 pm

The parental do as I say not as I do hypocrits are not bad, they have your best interests at heart.
It's the other hypocrits that I don't like, the ones who deride you or talk about you behind your back for something you do, that they secretly do as well.
It's usually some bible thumper.

edit - hehe, now it kinda goes with the above post, that wasnt there when I started posting mine.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » June 18, 2003, 1:54 pm

Hypocrasy also implies that 2 sets of rules apply and if there is one thing people hate more than following rules, its following rules that are more stringent than someone else.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 2:03 pm

Damn, my poor analogy sent this on a tangent.

How about this one..

A co-worker complains that his companions are not keeping the workplace clean and picked up, yet this very same guy is prone to leaving a mess.

No-one likes this guy, Why?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 2:06 pm

So Wufran you think the anger of hypocracy comes from a distaste for double standards?

A double standard implies that one person is more privileged than another.

It isn't "fair" that the special person is treated better than you?

Does the double standard thing boil back to fairness?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 18, 2003, 2:16 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Damn, my poor analogy sent this on a tangent.

How about this one..

A co-worker complains that his companions are not keeping the workplace clean and picked up, yet this very same guy is prone to leaving a mess.

No-one likes this guy, Why?

Because it's the mentality that if standards exclude a certain minority, then that brings discontent. Anyone read Animal Farm as a kid? Perfect example. We pretty much hate it when someone gets away with something that we cannot get away with, unless it's against something/someone you loathe, then it's a sort of poetic justice.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 2:17 pm

Do you belive Krimson that the hate of hypocracy then stems from desire for fairness?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 18, 2003, 2:20 pm

At its core, I do believe that statement to be true. We inherently want an even playing field, and when someone says one thing but practices another, then we see them as using only words to gain an advantage in a debate or point of view, just to further their own goals. It's like a hot check basically.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 2:38 pm

I wonder about the fairness issue being inherent.

Think of a little kid. You have to "train" them to be fair and scold them when they're selfish.

If this desire for fairness is based upon how were are raised, could it be said then that in some parts of the world or in history people were born into a system where it life was expected to be unfair.

The life of a medival serf comes to mind, or the Hindu caste system.

Are there places in this world where unfairness is accepted as a way of life and hypocrites are accepted as "the way it is"?

BTW dictionary.com had this nugget:

The act or practice of a hypocrite; a feigning to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not feel; a dissimulation, or a concealment of one's real character, disposition, or motives; especially, the assuming of false appearance of virtue or religion; a simulation of goodness.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 18, 2003, 2:55 pm

The reason I bring this up is I'm searching for behaviors that point towards a "genetic morality"

Everyone seems to dislike hypocrites.

Is this taught or inherent?

My assumption is we're all born with only selfish, survival instincts.

Anything that would benefit a social group such as cherishing fairness I assume to be taught.

Can you think of any positive, not-taught, behaviors?

Perhaps the desire to nurture a baby?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 18, 2003, 2:57 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:The reason I bring this up is I'm searching for behaviors that point towards a "genetic morality"

Everyone seems to dislike hypocrites.

Is this taught or inherent?

I think it is inherent, It is so pointed out while you are growing up.

Thw statement above was a Hipocritical statement.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 18, 2003, 3:05 pm

I guess the only way to either prove or disprove your genetic morality hypothesis is study cases of human isolation from toddler to adult. Good luck with that one. I think there was also a case of a kid being raised by wolves, or I could be mistaking this with Romulus and Remus. Would be interesting to find out what their morals or values were during the isolation up to first making contact with humans again.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » June 18, 2003, 3:12 pm

No Cart, it was just contradictory.

At the heart of hypocrisy lies the pretense that one is without fault. The hypocrite will point out the transgressions of others and claim the moral high ground, but be just as guilty as his targets of scorn. Even worse, he will profess to virtues he does not have and does not even believe in.

Lexien · Post by **Lexien** » June 18, 2003, 3:21 pm

You guys are going deep.

To me, the simplest form of hypocrisy is saying that kyoukan is a nice person while on the other hand i think she's a bitch but keep it to myself or spread the h8 to others while not telling her.

No offence Kyou...

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » June 18, 2003, 3:24 pm

Well, that's the Ambrose Bierce definition of the word. In 'The Devil's Dictionary' he writes:

POLITENESS, n. The most acceptable form of hypocrisy.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 18, 2003, 3:43 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:No Cart, it was just contradictory.

At the heart of hypocrisy lies the pretense that one is without fault. The hypocrite will point out the transgressions of others and claim the moral high ground, but be just as guilty as his targets of scorn. Even worse, he will profess to virtues he does not have and does not even believe in.

Yes you are right I stand corrected

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 18, 2003, 4:24 pm

Lexien wrote:You guys are going deep.

To me, the simplest form of hypocrisy is saying that kyoukan is a nice person while on the other hand i think she's a bitch but keep it to myself or spread the h8 to others while not telling her.

No offence Kyou...

like I give a fuck. who even are you?

Lexien · Post by **Lexien** » June 18, 2003, 4:28 pm

How retarded are you?

It was an example.

Obviously you cared, you answered with that stupid remark.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » June 18, 2003, 4:30 pm

Xyun wrote:When a person commits hypocracy, they are in essence contradicting themselves. To contradict oneself is to lack common sense, and it is seen in the eyes of others as mental weakness.

To which you are the poster child junior

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » June 18, 2003, 5:10 pm

So Wufran you think the anger of hypocracy comes from a distaste for double standards?

Yes. And I think it also comes from the dishonesty of hypocrasy.

A double standard implies that one person is more privileged than another.

It isn't "fair" that the special person is treated better than you?

Who is defining what deserves the "seperate" rule set though? Who is defining worthiness to belong in the priviledged group? If I am a talented athlete, and you are more intelligent than me, does it mean I should be subject to different (say more forgiving) laws, because your superuir intellect should no better more than mine? If the rules set have a logic behind them, people may not like them but they will respect them. If they are arbitrary, people can see themselves as exceptions and feel justified in the violation.

Also refer back to your definition:

a feigning to be what one is not, or to feel what one does not feel; a dissimulation, or a concealment of one's real character, disposition, or motives

By definition hypocrasy denies credibility to one who engages in it: how do you TRUST someone whom you know is not being honest with you?

As far as the "genetic morality" thing, I think morality is a sign of the culture more than anything inherent in us. The "desire to nuture a baby" is an extention of the need to procreate. Look at a pack of wolves, a pride of lions, herd of antelope. They all exhibit social tendancies but it is founded on base survival: a group can defend thenselves from a predator easier than an individual. They establish their social "rules" based on survival (i.e. who eats first, who mates with whom) and in large part it is determined by "survival of the fittest".

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » June 18, 2003, 10:47 pm

The biggest issue people have with hypocrisy is not so much the double standard involved in the hypocrites position (eg- the smoking father telling his child not to smoke, which people may think is hypocritical (and it is) but they dont get seriously annoyed by it), its when the hypocrite is self-righteous about it. Saying one thing and doing another is common enough, but doesnt get people so worked up- its when they say one thing with elements of moral judgement included and then do another that people get angry.

*Hugs*
Varia

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 18, 2003, 11:40 pm

To me, hypocrisy shows mental weakness. As it is often proven in arguements, it totally negates everything that said person has argued.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » June 18, 2003, 11:57 pm

Hate to be the one who does this, but the root of your disagreements seems to be your various definitions of hypocrisy.

Merriam-Webster wrote:hyp·o·crite
: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion

The colloquial usage may differ for each of you, but I'd recommend starting from a common starting point.

The prototypical hypocrite is Reverend Arthur Dimmesdale from The Scarlet Letter. Or, for a modern case: Jimmy Swaggart.

A parent saying, "Do as I say, not as I do," is not hypocrisy. A parent who smokes in secret telling a child not to smoke because it's morally wrong is textbook hypocrisy.

Mippy

Crav · Post by **Crav** » June 19, 2003, 12:40 am

Personally I think the hate for hypocrites come from the fact that we all lie and often times we try to make excuses if only to ourselves. We look at hypocrites who in essence are lying to others and often times to themselves. So we project the regret and anger in ourselves for the times that we lie onto others who we have caught in a lie. Again this is just my own opinion

.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 19, 2003, 1:36 pm

I heard this theory once that everyone likes to store experiences in their brain via a cause and effect relationship.

Cause: I touch a hot burner. Effect: It burns me.
Cause: I speed Effect: I might get ticketed
Cause: I punch a cop Effect: I go to jail.

Maybe the dislike of a hypocrite is that they're not predictable and you can't frame them into a cause-effect relation?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 19, 2003, 1:47 pm

As for me, I basically get pissed of because they in some way are lying to me.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 19, 2003, 1:51 pm

Hmm, so far two themes,

Hypocracy violates fairness and honesty