Can someone explain this?

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » June 17, 2003, 2:42 am

Xyun, you call me a coward for espousing support of my country from behind my keyboard. What does that make a person who does nothing but criticize and complain from behind his keyboard?

If calling Europeans pussies is expressing support for the USA then you sir are the epitome of patriotism. It is your "with us or against us" attitude, your lack of understanding of the subject matter, and your blantant disregard for all other people that makes you a fucking coward.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 17, 2003, 6:01 am

Quote:
There are several existing countries with better standards of living than the US (Canada was #1 in the last study I saw).

Entirely possible. Please re-read.

I got the point. My point is I think it's funny that you make the claim of raising others' standards of living (highly debatable claim btw) when you can't even bring your own up to par with other countries.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 17, 2003, 9:06 am

Why does that amuse you so? Our standards of living are pretty good considering the melting pot that we are. Do you think you can claim another country can say that?

Etasi · Post by **Etasi** » June 17, 2003, 1:35 pm

Because the US is the only diverse country in the world!

Furthermore, what does being a "melting pot" have to do with the standard of living? I know people desperately need to believe that the US is the best of the best on absolutely everything, but making up arbitrary criteria, like being a melting pot, by which to compare our standard of living to other countries so that we can be number one, is pointless. Agree with the numbers or don't, but don't argue that number two really means number one. That's the Sam Deathwalker style of argument.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 17, 2003, 2:07 pm

Xyun wrote:
Xyun, you call me a coward for espousing support of my country from behind my keyboard. What does that make a person who does nothing but criticize and complain from behind his keyboard?
If calling Europeans pussies is expressing support for the USA then you sir are the epitome of patriotism. It is your "with us or against us" attitude, your lack of understanding of the subject matter, and your blantant disregard for all other people that makes you a fucking coward.

You have an interesting definition of cowardice. It's not correct, just interesting. The fact I choose not to coddle views that I do not share doesn't mean I don't understand them. I disregard the Europeans because they have over and over chosen to make themselves irrelevant to US affairs.

Your inability to hear any view other than your own without yelling "STFU stupid coward" over and over again is a failing on your part, not mine. If you had any balls, you'd go light yourself on fire in front of the Pentagon.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 17, 2003, 2:10 pm

do you have any example of how europe is irrelevant to US affairs moreso than the US is irrelevant to european affairs?

this ought to be good.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 17, 2003, 2:17 pm

kyoukan wrote:do you have any example of how europe is irrelevant to US affairs moreso than the US is irrelevant to european affairs?

this ought to be good.

No. We're prolly equally as irrelevant to them, except when we send our military mucking about in the Mid East, when one of their neighbors decides to commit genocide and they need someone to break it up, ect.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 17, 2003, 2:22 pm

So you have no problem with europeans calling americans a bunch of fence sitting pussies for not taking an active interest in every european issue that comes up?

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 17, 2003, 2:32 pm

Well, we did help them in WW1 (too late though) and WW2 (late as usual, but we were the driving force this go 'round) when they needed our support. We were also in Berlin when the wall went down. Other than that Europeans haven't had any need for our support, military wise.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 17, 2003, 2:42 pm

kyoukan wrote:So you have no problem with europeans calling americans a bunch of fence sitting pussies for not taking an active interest in every european issue that comes up?

Well, I'd hardly call ousting an asshole who was illegally pumping oil to Syria while simultaneously thumbing his nose at the UN an American issue. That aside, no, not really.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 17, 2003, 3:23 pm

Etasi wrote:Because the US is the only diverse country in the world!

Furthermore, what does being a "melting pot" have to do with the standard of living? I know people desperately need to believe that the US is the best of the best on absolutely everything, but making up arbitrary criteria, like being a melting pot, by which to compare our standard of living to other countries so that we can be number one, is pointless. Agree with the numbers or don't, but don't argue that number two really means number one. That's the Sam Deathwalker style of argument.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that America receives more immigrants each year than any other country. We get an influx of people who have nothing. While that's fine with me, it does bring the standard of living average down. There's nothing arbitrary about that.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » June 17, 2003, 4:01 pm

despite whatever countrys were in the "coalition of the willing" (godda love the flashy names bush gives) the only other country in the world where the majority of the population supported a war with iraq was Israel, and gee you godda wonder why there...

The problem with conservatives in political issues/discussions is they try to see everything in black and white, and the world is anything but that

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 17, 2003, 5:20 pm

I got the point. My point is I think it's funny that you make the claim of raising others' standards of living (highly debatable claim btw) when you can't even bring your own up to par with other countries.

Very faulty logic there.

First, it takes far more resources to raise the standard of living in a 'first' world country than it does in a 'third' world country.

Second, it's not debatable at all. When you find a country that contributed one third as many resources and minds to the industrial revolution, you let me know.

Then we can start to discuss aid packages to foreign countries, scientific development, improvements in modern medicine, et cetera.

My country pulls some stupid shit once in a while, but there is one hell of a lot of good coming outta here, like it or not.

So, what is the difference between a wise man and a fool?

A fool never accumulates enough power and influence to make really big mistakes.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 17, 2003, 5:33 pm

Japan has us beat in scientific progressions.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 17, 2003, 5:37 pm

Zamtuk wrote:Japan has us beat in scientific progressions.

And? He was not saying that the US was number 1 in scientific progressions, he was simply listing American benefits to the world.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 17, 2003, 5:47 pm

Japan doesn't even come close in the realm of science.

The only real jump they ever had was after stealing every goddamned patent being marketed inside their airspace.

Try again, please.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 17, 2003, 5:49 pm

Well that didn't take long to unfold.

EDIT: wtf i had another post that didnt seem to make it to this thread. oh well

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 17, 2003, 6:28 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Japan doesn't even come close in the realm of science.

The only real jump they ever had was after stealing every goddamned patent being marketed inside their airspace.

Try again, please.

I keep asking this and you never answer properly. What decade do you live in?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 17, 2003, 6:29 pm

Right here in teh 21st century babe.

Go ahead, let's see you show that Japan has advanced science more than the USA.

I dare ya.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 17, 2003, 6:32 pm

LOL JAPAN IS ONLY GOOD FOR DIGITAL WATCHES AND ECONOMY CARS AM I RITE?!

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » June 17, 2003, 6:39 pm

I disregard the Europeans because they have over and over chosen to make themselves irrelevant to US affairs.

Well, I'd hardly call ousting an asshole who was illegally pumping oil to Syria while simultaneously thumbing his nose at the UN an American issue.

First, you call them pussies for not joining in a morally questionable war that the US waged despite the protest of the European nations in the UN. Then you say you disregard them because they choose to make themselves irrelevant to US affairs (even though they protested the very war you call them pussies for not joining), all the while claiming that the war was the business of the UN.

Is it possible for you to contradict yourself any further?

Maybe, just maybe, you are a deluded hillbilly who can only see the world through American eyes. I know what I got my money on.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 17, 2003, 6:44 pm

Wow, Kyou.

Nice to have someone make themselves irrelevant and save me the trouble.

Come back when you have a point, eh?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 17, 2003, 6:44 pm

US > all in science, really in any way you would want to quantify the comparison. There simply is no comparison. I say this having been a biologist for about 5 years who worked with people from Germany, France, Khazakstan, China, Japan, Argentina, Chile, Russia, and Canada who were all doing their work in the US.

Certainly some of the US' strength in scientific research stems from an influx of people from all corners of the globe. But it is the US taxpayers and corporate investors who foot the bill.

Germany, UK, Japan, France, and several other countries have some high quality scientific cultures, but nothing like the US.

California by itself would probably blow away the #2 country.

Hell a 10 square mile section of Boston would probably be pretty close to the #2 country

.

Russia would have been on that list had their government not totally stopped funding their programs. As such there are quite a lot of talented scientists from the former USSR in the US working in positions beneath their capability.

Etasi · Post by **Etasi** » June 17, 2003, 6:48 pm

Chidoro wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that America receives more immigrants each year than any other country. We get an influx of people who have nothing. While that's fine with me, it does bring the standard of living average down. There's nothing arbitrary about that.

In sheer volume of immigrants, I'm sure the US receives more per year than any other country, due to its size. However, does the US receive significantly more immigrants per year, as a percentage of its population, than any other country? I highly doubt that it does. However, as neither of us is providing any concrete numbers, this debate amounts to no more than idle speculation, and as such I'll leave my question simply as something to consider.

To the best of my knowledge, the standard of living comparisons are based on an index of a number of statistics, like average life expectancy, level of education, average income, quality of health care, and the like. It seems more likely to me that the reason the US has a lower standard of living than other countries is because of the relative level/quality of social services provided by the governments in question (not making a value judgement about this either way, since I really don't want to get caught up in that debate), since many of the factors taken into account when calculating the standard of living are heavily affected by goverment expenditure.

I suppose you could argue that the level of social services provided in the US is diminished due to heavy immigration, but I feel it's more a product of our political climate. Furthermore, to assume that the majority of (legal) immigrants to the US "come here with nothing" and as such are a huge drain on our country seems like an unfair generalization to me.

I stand by my claim that it's pointless to try and bolster the US's ranking in standard of living by adding in extra qualifications. Our country is the way it is due to far more than immigration, and anyway, making excuses for our standard of living does not serve to make us look any better.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 17, 2003, 8:09 pm

Aranuil,
Probably Japan and Germany due to WWII. No hard facts or anything, just something I thought of off the top of my head. It will also depend on how far back in history you count I guess.

Someone mentioned The Industrial Revolution.. my history knowledge of that time period is kind of weak (I like more modern history better), but wasn't England the major country when it came to this?

noel · Post by **noel** » June 17, 2003, 8:29 pm

Kelshara wrote:Aranuil,
Probably Japan and Germany due to WWII. No hard facts or anything, just something I thought of off the top of my head. It will also depend on how far back in history you count I guess.

Debating Japan would be pointless. As many arguments as I could make about the level of investment and partnership that the US made with Japan post WWII, it's kind of hard to say that the Atomic Bomb wouldn't piss a few people off. Frankly, I'm surprised our countries have the excellent relationship that they do.

Germany, I'll disagree with. WWII wasn't really about Germany as much as it was about stopping an evil dictator. Given that in post War Germany, West Germany was a far better place to be than East (I didn't live there, but the people who were willing to risk death to get out of East Germany might be able to contribute), I don't see how you could say that the US had a negative effect on Germany. Additionally given that the day the wall came down was huge worldwide (though more of a Russia/US thing), I just don't agree.

Countries that have good reason to hate the US that I can think of off the top of my head:
Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and maybe North Korea.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 18, 2003, 9:09 am

Fair enough Etasi. I can't think of anything that I disagree with there.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 18, 2003, 11:42 am

kyoukan wrote:LOL JAPAN IS ONLY GOOD FOR DIGITAL WATCHES AND ECONOMY CARS AM I RITE?!

You forgot upskirt and toilet cams.

Xyun: YEEHAW, bitch!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 18, 2003, 12:29 pm

OMG upskirts cams

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 18, 2003, 7:12 pm

Someone mentioned The Industrial Revolution.. my history knowledge of that time period is kind of weak (I like more modern history better), but wasn't England the major country when it came to this?

England (Great Britan) was certainly an industrial power. The United States saw the rise of the inventions credited for making the industrial revolution posible:

The cotton gin (manual labor replaced by machine labor)

The assembly line (specialization of labor)

Component standardization (allows mass production of parts for assembly and repair)

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » June 18, 2003, 11:02 pm

Chidoro wrote:

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that America receives more immigrants each year than any other country. We get an influx of people who have nothing. While that's fine with me, it does bring the standard of living average down. There's nothing arbitrary about that.

It looks like in terms of raw numbers, the U.S probably does have more immigrants coming in yearly, although several other countries have higher ratios per 1000. At least from a rough scan over the cia world factbook, it has all the numbers for per 1000 population, and the population numbers themselves, but no raw immigration totals so you have to look back and forth, the link is here http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... /2112.html

This 1995 article http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-immig.html by the late great Julian Simon has some interesting information about immigration. Our rate of immigration now is slightly lower in raw number than it was around the beginning of the century, even though the population has more than doubled (so obviously the rate is much lower percentage wise).

A few interesting tidbits

New immigrants are more concentrated than are natives
in the youthful labor-force ages when people contribute more to
the public coffer than they draw from it; natives are more
concentrated in the childhood and elderly periods of economic
dependence when the net flows are from the public to the
individual. Of all the facts about immigration relevant to its
economic effects, this is the most important, and the one which
is most consistent in all countries, in all decades and
centuries.

Taken altogether, immigrants on average have perhaps a
year less education than natives--much the same relationship as
has been observed back to the 19th century.

The proportion of immigrants with bachelor's or
postgraduate degrees is higher than the proportion of the native
labor force.

Immigrants, even those from countries that are much
poorer and have lower average life expectancies than the United
States, are healthier than U.S. natives of the same age and sex.
New immigrants have better records with respect to infant
mortality and health than do U.S. natives and immigrants who have
been in the United States longer.

First- and second-generation immigrant children do
unusually well in school. They win an astonishingly high
proportion of scholastic prizes.

As I have said before, I think we could stand to remove the various barriers to immigration that we have in the U.S.

Regarding standard of living indexes, generally I think they should be taken with a grain of salt. To get a "standard of living" number many different raw statistics are composited together, what gets picked and what weights various portions have can easily lead to bias being introduced. They can be interesting to look at sometime, but looking at the methodology and at the separate statistics that make it up is probably a good idea.