Can someone explain this?

Post by **Xouqoa** » June 12, 2003, 4:03 pm

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... l_court_11

Why is the US exempt from prosecution for war crimes when it signed the treaty which ratified the world court? I don't know much about this, so I'm just wondering why we are the only ones exempted from it. =o

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 12, 2003, 4:23 pm

I do not know if there is an excuse for that.
Really, why would the U.S. need to be exempt of prosection in war crime cases? Do we commit war crimes that need exemption from?
I am at a loss Xou.

EDIT: DING 1k of useless dribble in posts

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 12, 2003, 4:24 pm

I won't even try to begin to understand your governments policies

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 12, 2003, 4:27 pm

Basically, the US is exempt because they have declared themselves to be exempt, and the US has the most money and most things they can use to blow other countries up.

The UN needs the US pretty badly and the white house knows this so they can pretty much push the UN around to do whatever they want.

It's bullying, but nothing particularly new.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 12, 2003, 4:29 pm

Not bullying, but it is bullshit.
I do not want my nation exempt from something that enforces humanitarian action in times were it is all to easy to forget.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 12, 2003, 4:47 pm

It would be redundant, since America does nothing wrong anyway.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » June 12, 2003, 5:06 pm

Clearly they wanted to be with us. By God if they were not with us.........

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 12, 2003, 5:57 pm

Plainly spoken?

Many countries are anti-U.S. These countries have a history of using the UN as a political tool against U.S. interests.

This court also could easily be used for political purposes against the U.S. Hence, the U.S. will not submit to it's authority.

Keep in mind, this is the world organization that has Libya chairing the UN Commission on Human Rights. (Cuba is a long-standing member of the commission and was just re-elected to another term against U.S. wishes.) I mean this is Orwellian... and we want them able to prosecute our soldiers for war crimes? I think not.

There is already talk of indicting General Tommy Franks as a war criminal...

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 12, 2003, 6:07 pm

Bullshit. I call foul at this.

I think that us taking accountablity before the world is a sure way to regain the trust that Bush destroyed with the WMD fiasco.
I think, considering that the U.S. invaded Iraq without U.N. sanction or proper cause, then we should completely responsible in we violated any wartime laws.

The long and short that bothers me is this:

If we were innocent, we would not 'need' to hide behind a blanket of immunity. This saddens me.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 12, 2003, 6:13 pm

In short, we must be held to the same standard as we hold others. This is hypocritical. All those things you mentioned Mentanis, we could do to others as well.

Who polices the police?

noel · Post by **noel** » June 12, 2003, 6:15 pm

Metanis wrote:Plainly spoken?

Many countries are anti-U.S. These countries have a history of using the UN as a political tool against U.S. interests.

This court also could easily be used for political purposes against the U.S. Hence, the U.S. will not submit to it's authority.

No one is above the law. Not even the United States of America.

Metanis, your attitude is assanine at best. Bear in mind, I expect nothing more from you, but totally assanine. The US could still do whatever it wanted even if such a trial were to go on. Any such case that were brought before a war-crimes court would still need to be proven, anyway.

I just want to state loudly and clearly for anyone reading this thread from another country that:

METANIS IS AN ASSHOLE AND HE DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS. MOST OF THE TIME I'M NOT SURE HE SPEAKS FOR ANY AMERICANS.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 12, 2003, 6:54 pm

I think appointing Libya to the human rights commision has really helped that country reform itself in a positive manner. They still aren't a place I would vacation to but they have made some amazing strides towards a more civilized society. It has been years and years since the last nasty reports came out of Libya despite constant UN and private human rights watchdog organizations surveillance.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » June 12, 2003, 7:15 pm

The United States has never ratified the treaty http://untreaty.un.org/ENGLISH/bible/en ... y10.asp#N6

The President can propose treaties but he needs ratification from the Senate (if I am remembering my constitution correctly).

Here is an article that, while a bit old, goes into some of the potential problems with the ICC.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-311.html

An exceprt from the article ...

Specifically, the court threatens to diminish America's sovereignty, produce arbitrary and highly politicized "justice," and grow into a jurisdictional leviathan. Already some supporters of the proposed court want to give it the authority to prosecute drug trafficking as well as such vague offenses as "serious threats to the environment" and "committing outrages on personal dignity." Even if such expansive authority is not given to the ICC initially, the potential for jurisdictional creep is considerable and worrisome. Moreover, it appears that many of the legal safeguards American citizens enjoy under the U.S. Constitution would be suspended if they were brought before the court. Endangered constitutional protections include the prohibition against double jeopardy, the right to trial by an impartial jury, and the right of the accused to confront the witnesses against him.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » June 12, 2003, 8:36 pm

That same article says this:

the preamble of the ICC draft statute states that the "court is intended to exercise jurisdiction only over the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole,"

These being war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide. These are the ONLY things this war has authority over. It is illogical to let a nation who commits these crimes to be sovereign over themselves. This argument is not valid.

It's all good though. I believe in karma.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » June 12, 2003, 9:57 pm

For some people, their country can do no wrong! For these people all you can do is hope that they don't breed or pray that their children somehow break the cycle of stupidity.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » June 12, 2003, 10:04 pm

By the way, why should the US fear being held accountable? You mean to tell me that the country with the most slippery tongued, spin doctors (hello over 50% of the world's fucking lawyers) couldn't easily "convince" the rest of the world of its innocence from any allegation?

Just give Johnie Cochran a ring if shit hits the fan!

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 13, 2003, 6:16 am

The BBC did a show recently where one of their reporters visited all the nations on the "Axis of Evil" list for a vacation to see what they were really like.

Libya was the best of them all. A normal, stable, muslim country, plenty of "western" influence. You just have to ignore the massive colourful representations of Ghaddaffi that appear at 5-ft intervals across the countries entire surface.

Iran was the worst. The guy spent 11 days in prison accused of spying and basically looked like he'd spent the entire time shitting himself with fear.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 13, 2003, 9:17 am

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » June 13, 2003, 10:29 am

Short explanation, the United States is not going to submit to the authority of another political entity.

Period. Not now, not next week, not ever.

Clear enough?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 13, 2003, 10:38 am

Correct short answer: The US will not be held to the same standards of behaviour we demand from the rest of the world at gunpoint.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 13, 2003, 10:42 am

Fallanthas wrote:Short explanation, the United States is not going to submit to the authority of another political entity.

Period. Not now, not next week, not ever.

Clear enough?

You mean like NATO?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 13, 2003, 10:47 am

Fallanthas wrote:Short explanation, the United States is not going to submit to the authority of another political entity.

Period. Not now, not next week, not ever.

Clear enough?

And yet you expect to hold all other countries to American standards..... then you wonder why groups such as Al Qaeda exist.

The only thing that will come of this hipocricy is more contepmt for the USA.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 13, 2003, 10:56 am

Not that I disagree with you Miir, but Al Qaeda was formed well before they hated Americans

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 13, 2003, 11:02 am

miir wrote:The only thing that will come of this hipocricy is more contepmt for the USA.

Until such time as we can be assured that an entity such as this will not be used as a political tool, I'm fine with the US not being a part of it. We can take being called "hipocrites" and earning "contepmt."

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 13, 2003, 12:10 pm

Aranuil wrote:METANIS IS AN ASSHOLE AND HE DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS. MOST OF THE TIME I'M NOT SURE HE SPEAKS FOR ANY AMERICANS.

I guess I had more respect for your intellect than you deserve. Emulating Kooky is pretty damn sad

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » June 13, 2003, 12:16 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Short explanation, the United States is not going to submit to the authority of another political entity.

Period. Not now, not next week, not ever.

Clear enough?

Actually, our Constitution quite plainly forbids it.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 13, 2003, 12:19 pm

Geee and what court system would you like for the US to be held accountable too.?

What Court system has the sense of fairness that the US system does?

The only ones I can think of off the top of my head is Canada and England and maybe Australia.

Before I get all the negative "OMG the US system is so corrupt" why dont you park your ass in Mexico or some other 3rd world country and watch the wheels of justice turn.

The US system is not perfect but its a hell of a lot better then the rest.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » June 13, 2003, 12:38 pm

That the US cannot lower itself to be judged by the same standards it demands of others is one of the main reasons that the UN has become such a paper tiger.

The Kyoto-treaty, refusing to pay the UN dues, refusing to sign the War Crime treaty (yet supporting the Hague proceedings that follow said treaty) - sad that "The greatest country in the world" apparently is so great that it doesn't need to follow the rules it helps lay out for others.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 13, 2003, 12:46 pm

This is bullshit.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 13, 2003, 1:30 pm

Metanis wrote:
Aranuil wrote:METANIS IS AN ASSHOLE AND HE DOES NOT SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS. MOST OF THE TIME I'M NOT SURE HE SPEAKS FOR ANY AMERICANS.
I guess I had more respect for your intellect than you deserve. Emulating Kooky is pretty damn sad

I'm actually a whole new ballgame for you Metanis. See, Kyoukan is from Canada, and can give you more of a 'world perspective' on all of these issues you don't have the brainpower to understand. I don't always agree with her, but you ALWAYS make yourself look like a fool when you try to disagree with her. My views run toward conservatism, but the big difference between Kyou and I is that I'm an American, and I'm going to call you each and ever time I see you making embarassing statments in the name of other Americans.

The last thing I want is your respect.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 13, 2003, 1:52 pm

Aranuil wrote:I'm an American, and I'm going to call you each and ever time I see you making embarassing statments in the name of other Americans.

The last thing I want is your respect.

Whatever you feel is necessary, Aranuil....

...but I think your panties may be bunching up.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 13, 2003, 1:59 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:That the US cannot lower itself to be judged by the same standards it demands of others is one of the main reasons that the UN has become such a paper tiger.

The Kyoto-treaty, refusing to pay the UN dues, refusing to sign the War Crime treaty (yet supporting the Hague proceedings that follow said treaty) - sad that "The greatest country in the world" apparently is so great that it doesn't need to follow the rules it helps lay out for others.

When you Euro-fags ante-up and kick in like men instead of whining and bitching all the time, then we'll sign your little treaty.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 13, 2003, 2:18 pm

I thought Portugal, Spain, and Britain all supported the Iraqi invasion.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 13, 2003, 3:18 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:I thought Portugal, Spain, and Britain all supported the Iraqi invasion.

Drolgin is none of the above.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 13, 2003, 3:51 pm

Denmark was part of the "coalition of the willing" during this year's illegal conquest of Iraq.

So now what leg do you have to stand on, moron?

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 13, 2003, 3:53 pm

masteen wrote:
Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:That the US cannot lower itself to be judged by the same standards it demands of others is one of the main reasons that the UN has become such a paper tiger.

The Kyoto-treaty, refusing to pay the UN dues, refusing to sign the War Crime treaty (yet supporting the Hague proceedings that follow said treaty) - sad that "The greatest country in the world" apparently is so great that it doesn't need to follow the rules it helps lay out for others.
When you Euro-fags ante-up and kick in like men instead of whining and bitching all the time, then we'll sign your little treaty.

Kick in like men... how so?
Kick in to the "smash Iraq without proof of WMD!" fund?
No, the majority of the euro community stood up to the wrong WE commited.
That being said, they are the one's with the balls whilest our own leaders define either a) corruption or b) incompetence.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » June 13, 2003, 3:56 pm

Actually Drolgin, The Kyoto Accord isn't something I would lump in with the rest ofthose. Its an environmental agreement, based on questionable science with idiotic goals and no consequences to violaters. The aim of reducing pollution/emissions is laudable but to demand that the signatories endure crippling economic consequences to effect a reduction that will be more than overtaken by the non-signatory nations (i.e. develpoing nations) is ridiculous.

The UN Dues, participation in the World Court, signing the War Crimes treaties (and the seeking UN exemptions from prosecution of war crimes on UN missions) are all things I, as a non-American, see as hypocritical, but I wonder at times, if my country is much different. Would we seek to get away with it if we had the clout?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 13, 2003, 4:05 pm

Acies wrote: Kick in like men... how so?
Kick in to the "smash Iraq without proof of WMD!" fund?
No, the majority of the euro community stood up to the wrong WE commited.
That being said, they are the one's with the balls whilest our own leaders define either a) corruption or b) incompetence.

Acies, every so often you light up with what appears to be a spark of comprehension.... this is not one of those times my friend.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 13, 2003, 4:28 pm

Metanis wrote:
Acies wrote: Kick in like men... how so?
Kick in to the "smash Iraq without proof of WMD!" fund?
No, the majority of the euro community stood up to the wrong WE commited.
That being said, they are the one's with the balls whilest our own leaders define either a) corruption or b) incompetence.
Acies, every so often you light up with what appears to be a spark of comprehension.... this is not one of those times my friend.

How is this not one of them?

I wholely agree that America has the potential to be the land of the free and home of the brave. Right now, as I see it, we are the land of the greedy and home of the cowardly.

When I think of America, my natural inclination is to hear the word "Leader". My reason points me to these examples we are setting now, and like it or not, it will come around full circle.
Even you do not believe that, then when the next terrorist attack comes from a people who are sick of our hypocracy, I will DELIGHT in laughing my ass of at you and people who share your opinion, despite the body count.

We are not better than the rest of the world, and we should WELCOME the chance to be judged by our fellow nations, not hide from it like cowards.
That wont happen though. As Americans, we have become prideful and believe we are invincible. Though it pains me to know this will happen, it is also somewhat fitting in my mind that we eventually be destroyed for our presumtion that we are somehow elevated above the world.

I lament for the innocents that will eventually pay for past generations mistakes.[/b]

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 13, 2003, 4:40 pm

kyoukan wrote:Denmark was part of the "coalition of the willing" during this year's illegal conquest of Iraq.

So now what leg do you have to stand on, moron?

I actually think that all Euros (except the UK) are pussies. The rest just know who's gonna oil their bunz. Happy, bitch?

Acies wrote:Kick in like men... how so?

I'd settle for the UN taking a stand on anything and sticking to it. Their enforcement of the sanctions put on Iraq in 1991 was a fucking joke. After the first team of inspectors was sent home years ago, the second team should have shown up with a regiment of armed troops.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 13, 2003, 5:17 pm

masteen wrote:
Acies wrote:Kick in like men... how so?
I'd settle for the UN taking a stand on anything and sticking to it. Their enforcement of the sanctions put on Iraq in 1991 was a fucking joke. After the first team of inspectors was sent home years ago, the second team should have shown up with a regiment of armed troops.

Cool, I agree with this.
Also though, remember that the U.S. is part of the U.N.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 13, 2003, 5:18 pm

Metanis wrote: Acies, every so often you light up with what appears to be a spark of comprehension.... this is not one of those times my friend.

Oh look, the pot is fucking the kettle again.

You have no room whatsoever to speak of anyone elses comprehension.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 13, 2003, 5:24 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Metanis wrote: Acies, every so often you light up with what appears to be a spark of comprehension.... this is not one of those times my friend.

Oh look, the pot is fucking the kettle again.

You have no room whatsoever to speak of anyone elses comprehension.

I am SO not the kettle is Met is the pot

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 13, 2003, 5:47 pm

Acies wrote:
Aranuil wrote:
Metanis wrote: Acies, every so often you light up with what appears to be a spark of comprehension.... this is not one of those times my friend.

Oh look, the pot is fucking the kettle again.

You have no room whatsoever to speak of anyone elses comprehension.
I am SO not the kettle is Met is the pot

I really don't think you are my type... you're safe Acies.

Aranuil? I don't know what your problem is, but STFU would fix it.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 13, 2003, 5:53 pm

Click away loser. I have no reason to STFU you. It's far too easy to point out all of your idiocy.

Kargyle · Post by **Kargyle** » June 13, 2003, 6:08 pm

I don't generally chime in during these little flame spats, but I think his problem with you, is that in nearly every statement you make you seem to represent all of the bad American stereotypes that other countries have about us. Some of us don't particulary enjoy it when others reflect badly on ourselves. Of course that is just my opinion.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 13, 2003, 6:34 pm

Kargyle wrote:I don't generally chime in during these little flame spats, but I think his problem with you, is that in nearly every statement you make you seem to represent all of the bad American stereotypes that other countries have about us. Some of us don't particulary enjoy it when others reflect badly on ourselves. Of course that is just my opinion.

Who are you talking about?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 13, 2003, 6:40 pm

Aranuil wrote:Click away loser. I have no reason to STFU you. It's far too easy to point out all of your idiocy.

If your shorts get much tighter it's going to restrict blood flow to your brain son... loosen up a bit.

Just an FYI... I like fanning the flames of liberal vs. conservative argument and thought. You'll rarely see me admit it, but both viewpoints have merits for given circumstances and facts. For example I readily agree with the viewpoint "The worst thing about capitalism is capitalists".

And another thing, those few of us here on the boards who argue the conservative viewpoint rarely resort to name-calling and personal insults as our first line of defense. Aranuil, I see you sinking down to that level just like Kooky and so many others here. In your rush to belittle us you rarely realize how small you appear. Kooky is the queen of this tactic and one of the reasons I find her so hypocritical and childish. (PS. I realize fully that using "Kooky" is a form of name-calling... but God man, it's so freakin' appropriate it can't be considered demeaning!!!)

Anyway, you seem to have a hard on for me... so... FOMF!

noel · Post by **noel** » June 13, 2003, 6:43 pm

Metanis wrote:
Aranuil wrote:Click away loser. I have no reason to STFU you. It's far too easy to point out all of your idiocy.
If your shorts get much tighter it's going to restrict blood flow to your brain son... loosen up a bit.

Just an FYI... I like fanning the flames of liberal vs. conservative argument and thought. You'll rarely see me admit it, but both viewpoints have merits for given circumstances and facts. For example I readily agree with the viewpoint "The worst thing about capitalism is capitalists".

And another thing, those few of us here on the boards who argue the conservative viewpoint rarely resort to name-calling and personal insults as our first line of defense. Aranuil, I see you sinking down to that level just like Kooky and so many others here. In your rush to belittle us you rarely realize how small you appear. Kooky is the queen of this tactic and one of the reasons I find her so hypocritical and childish. (PS. I realize fully that using "Kooky" is a form of name-calling... but God man, it's so freakin' appropriate it can't be considered demeaning!!!)

Anyway, you seem to have a hard on for me... so... FOMF!

Get over yourself.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 13, 2003, 6:52 pm

And on that note, has anyone else noticed that if you squeeze your penis at the base real hard, it sorta looks like a baby's arm holding an apple?