Sigh

[kyoukan]

like blacks not being able to sit at the front of the bus?
or women not being able to vote?

yes exactly those. such things were found to be violations of people's civil rights in the 1960's.

man, why do people that completely agree 100% with everything I say keep arguing with me?

[Xzion]

What school?Btw, I never said all schools are like that.Id get in to it more, but I think I made my points on the MAIN topic of this thread.

Went to windermere elementary then lake highland, maybe those schools had something to do with it

[Chidoro]

I'd be curious to see what people consider middle class these days. I'm sure it would be effected greatly by what region you live in but I'm just curious.

I see that cover of parade magazine w/ people's salaries and am amazed how people could live on such an amount. To think they may classify themselves as middle class would be surprising to me.

[masteen]

like blacks not being able to sit at the front of the bus?
or women not being able to vote?

yes exactly those. such things were found to be violations of people's civil rights in the 1960's.

man, why do people that completely agree 100% with everything I say keep arguing with me?

Because you're a fucking bitch?

[Kylere]

There is no discrimination unless you LET IT stop you

You are the perpetual moron.

Those that discriminate should be held accountable for their actions. That is the only way to quash discrimination. If every person who was discriminated against simply "moved on" without addressing the problem, then blacks would STILL be riding in the back of the bus.

You propose that answer to discrimination is to "ignore it." And you think it will just go away? How deluded can you be?

Maybe we should just "move on" when we get robbed or when someone murders our loved ones. Injustice is injustice. It is black & white for a reason: to prevent bigots from "interpreting" or acting under the law according to their own personal agendas.

It amazes me when people are so quick to say what others should & shouldn't do or say when it comes to expressing their culture, lifestyle, or religion. Why should you care if someone wants to smoke a joint in the privacy of their own home, why should you care if a group of homosexuals want to have a gathering, why should you care when it doesn't affect you? Live your own fucking life and let others live theirs. People like Metanis are just nosy old biddies who have nothing rewarding going on in their lives, so they have to try and make everyone as miserable as they are.

You are the perpetual asskisser of Kyoukan. ( There now that I used a personal attack to lead off just like you I must be smart)

Did you see me say to ignore it? Nope, just do not let it cause you to be skipped by. You can acccomplish your goals in life in spite of it, thereby negating the effects of it. If a company has a guy basing hiring decisions on race, that company will suffer competitively versus one hiring on the basis of skill, things balance out.

Now on your further ranting that is unrelated to this thread, I am all for peoples culture lifestyle and religion (minus $cientology because it is NOT religion, it is an evil cult), I am all for allowing people to smoke marijuana in the privacy of their home, and I am all for homosexuals having a gathering (just not in tax supported buildings but then again I do not want the moral majority meeting there either).

So lets see you and I agree almost 99% on these issues, yet you call me a moron, seems that you are down on your own views, you need to feel better about your own beliefs, but that is a job for a therapist, not a message board.

[Krimson Klaw]

like blacks not being able to sit at the front of the bus?
or women not being able to vote?

yes exactly those. such things were found to be violations of people's civil rights in the 1960's.

man, why do people that completely agree 100% with everything I say keep arguing with me?

The same reason you tried to bust a cap in my azz for agreeing with you in my first post of this thread. Stupidity sucks don't it?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I don't know what it is like where you all live, but around here and in the places I have worked, minorities of all regards are treated as if they shit diamonds. They can get away with things that would get me fired in a nanosecond. I have yet to see anyone in this company be discriminated against in any way because of race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. It is a very diverse workplace.

I am a white middle class male (Amer Indian blood but by all appearances a caucasian) and I do not feel discriminated against, BUT I do notice that minorities do get some extra sensitive handling on any problems so that there is no way the companies could have the NAACP or ACLU come down on them for some perceived violation.

[Ooga[foh]]

I don't know what it is like where you all live, but around here and in the places I have worked, minorities of all regards are treated as if they shit diamonds. They can get away with things that would get me fired in a nanosecond. I have yet to see anyone in this company be discriminated against in any way because of race, sexual orientation, nationality, etc. It is a very diverse workplace.

I am a white middle class male (Amer Indian blood but by all appearances a caucasian) and I do not feel discriminated against, BUT I do notice that minorities do get some extra sensitive handling on any problems so that there is no way the companies could have the NAACP or ACLU come down on them for some perceived violation.

Absolutely. In roughly 1987 an act or law or whatever was passed that gives companies major tax and insurance breaks for meeting a certain quota of minorities and handicap people employed. Was all part of afirmative action.

[Krimson Klaw]

I work for a major computer company and am a second line tech. Positions opened up for more L2's and 10 white guys were promoted in to my team. A black guy that went up for it and did not get it, threatened to go to HR because there was only one black person on the team (me). One white guy was bumped, and the black dude got it. One year later, same scenario, 5 white guys make it, white female threatens to go to HR cause we have no females on the team. You guessed it, white guy bumped, congrats Lisa! Now both of these individuals are on the L2 team, but find themselves isolated in a bitter work environment. It's funny because my manager has a packaged countenance when someone asks him about it off the record, he smirks, shakes his head and refuses to comment farther than to say it was not his decision. I'm sure kyoukan will use this story to call me an uncle tom, tell me to go pickup miss daisy, or something else, so hop to it babe.

[Cartalas]

I work for a major computer company and am a second line tech. Positions opened up for more L2's and 10 white guys were promoted in to my team. A black guy that went up for it and did not get it, threatened to go to HR because there was only one black person on the team (me). One white guy was bumped, and the black dude got it. One year later, same scenario, 5 white guys make it, white female threatens to go to HR cause we have no females on the team. You guessed it, white guy bumped, congrats Lisa! Now both of these individuals are on the L2 team, but find themselves isolated in a bitter work environment. It's funny because my manager has a packaged countenance when someone asks him about it off the record, he smirks, shakes his head and refuses to comment farther than to say it was not his decision. I'm sure kyoukan will use this story to call me an uncle tom, tell me to go pickup miss daisy, or something else, so hop to it babe.

Maybe the 2 White middle class males that were bumped should talk to a lawyer about discrimination.

[Kriista]

"how would you feel about a nazi/white pride parade?, or a million-man masoginist march?"


"I would be against any such thing as these are clearly hate-promoting organizations."

so its ok to march, or say what you want, as long as people agree with you, or dont vent dispopular opinions?

[/quote]

[kyoukan]

the goal of gay pride and racial pride events isn't to spread hatred an violence and thus aren't comparable to white supremacist or "masoginist" events.

[Ooga[foh]]

Who cares if homosexuals want to march? I mean really. Soon it's going to be celebrated in the same context as even black history month.

It's a lifestyle that people just haven't learned to accept yet, bottom line. Get over it, people aren't going to stop being gay.

Once up a time I was way way way homophobic. I had a downright hatred for them. Then I graduated high school and realized gay folks are no different then anyone else. Some guys like fat girls, some guys like skinny girls, some guys like guys, hell, some like both. Yipee? Do I think tax payer dollars should be being spent on thier parade? Why the hell not. What's life if you can't allow someone to feel good about themselves every once in a while. I will gladly contibute my .001 cent federal tax if it makes them feel good about living. Don't get me wrong, if it was in my town I wouldn't be going to the parade or march or whatever, but I would be happy to buy one of their raffle tickets from a co-worker.

[noel]

Edit: Already taken care of on the thread. I understand what Miir meant now.

As a white middle class male, I have been in environments where I was the only white person, and felt largely out of place and/or unwanted/unsafe, but never directly discrimintated against.

Personally, I find racism deplorable. Racism stems from ignorance which is very sadly still being perpetuated amongst portions of virtually every ethnic group in the world. It is not exclusive to whites, blacks, mexicans, arabs, europeans, etc.

As an American, I think the real sadness is that our country has been envisioned as 'the great melting pot', yet at times it seems like races are being further segregated. This isn't happening as much because of the direct acts of racism and hate that were so common in the past, but more seemingly due to an underlying racial tension that seems to be occurring today. I'm not sure how this can be corrected. Most of the people of my generation were raised to treat people as equals and I've only had the misfortune to see one direct act of racism in my life, so I still have hope that things are moving in the right direction.

For myself, I was raised to judge people 'not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character', and I think I do that fairly well. I've never used a racial slur in anything more than a joke, and even that has been a rare occurence since I've grown more mature and cognizant of the ramifications something like that could have if it were overheard by someone that didn't know me well enough to know where I stand on racism. Granted, I grew up in a more affluent area, and had opportunities and advantages that others didn't, but I don't think that makes me a bad person. I also don't think that never having been a 'minority' (technically, being white makes you a minority in the state of CA today), makes me unable to empathize with someone who is. I've had enough friends who were minorities that have relayed stories to me that I think I have a relatively good understanding of what they went through.

It's funny, when Michael Mann was chosen by Will Smith to direct the 'Ali' movie, due to creative differences between Smith and Spike Lee. Lee was reported to have stated he believed only a black director could do the story justice and he eventually went on to say that he disliked the finished product. I searched high and low for the direct quote, but I was unable to find it. The thing is though, whether you liked 'Ali' or not, Lee is making a racist statement here. Imagine the hoopla if the movie was JFK, and Lee had been chosen to direct it over Oliver Stone, and Stone had stated that only a white director could do the story justice. I don't really think Lee is a racist, but his statement is, and it perpetuates the exact attitudes that need to stop by all races, not just whites, not just blacks, etc.

Going to stop rambling now, but in response to the actual topic:
I guess I don't really care what they do. I'm inclined to say no to ANY special interest group that wants to use taxpayer funded property without paying for it, but I suppose the facility is likely powered during whatever time a given group would be meeting anyway, so perhaps it doesn't matter.

This is actually a really good thread with a lot of good posts in it. It's really nice to hear things from different perspectives (Krimson, especially). Thanks.

[Kriista]

the goal of gay pride and racial pride events isn't to spread hatred an violence and thus aren't comparable to white supremacist or "masoginist" events

you do understand the difference between hatred and violence dont you?
i didnt say nazi/jew assaulting, or masoginist/raping marches/parades, just people expressing their views/opinions, which if you havent noticed, happen to be minority opinions in the US

mebee the ACLU should start taking up cases from masoginist nazi gay haters who are discriminated against?

and for the record, i live in miami(one of the most diverce cities in the US), am hispanic, and bisexual, and for many years have lived with my gay(male) cousin, no middle aged white man angst/hate here

[Forthe]

The US economy was born on the backs of slaves. You owe the prosperity you enjoy today to those same people you treated like shit. Rather than show remorse and maybe even gratitude, for lack of a better word, you bitch that the bone given them in the form of Affirmative action isn't fair to you.

I fully expect Met\Cart not being able to understand any of that first paragraph other than the last 6 words.

[Raistin]

Forthe


I thought you couldnt get any more fucking stupid. I was wrong.

We live in today.Not 100 years ago. Africa had tribes selling their own people for slaves, or raiding other tribes and selling them on the "market" And in turn that Market was shopped at by _everyone_ in the world, even blacks. Hate them just as much as the White middle class male folk k?Why should i feel bad for something my own family didnt do, muchless ME?

Shit there were white slaves,and hispanic. My dads side of the family *or part of* were slaves over in France. I dont see someone giving them a "bone" muchless me because " My great great great great uncle was a slave". Although Im not saying its the same thing, but it did happen in a smaller scale.

Now its "hate" on both sides on the fence,more so from the "minoities". People like you or Ky think its ok for the 'folk to have a reason to hate every whitey today, and thats where the problem lies.I didnt have slaves, my family all of 400 years back didnt have slaves. So as a middle white classed male I get blamed and should get discrimated just because of a lower skilled miniorty wants a job Im going for and he/she gets it over me?

Fuck that and fuck you for being ignorant.

[noel]

The US economy was born on the backs of slaves.

Grats you vast oversimplification.

You owe the prosperity you enjoy today to those same people you treated like shit.

Again, vast oversimplification.

Rather than show remorse and maybe even gratitude, for lack of a better word, you bitch that the bone given them in the form of Affirmative action isn't fair to you.

Affirmative action may be a necessary evil, in a world where discrimination still exists, but as you so eloquently stated, it's certainly not the ideal that any of us should be shooting for.

As for remorse or gratitude? What have I personally done, to feel remorse for?

I feel gratitude for all of the people that made positive contributions to making my country what it is today, but that isn't limited to one race or ethnic group. I'm not going to go out of my way to give any person of any race special treatment because of things their ancestors may or may not have done. I will judge each person I meet as an individual, and treat them accordingly.

I fully expect Met\Cart not being able to understand any of that first paragraph other than the last 6 words.

You're giving them too much credit.

[Bocc]

Kyoukan, I never wrote bullshit about how anyone can do anything regardless of discrimination. I never wrote that there is no discrimination blocking people from accomplishing anything. I made a comment on how you thought that a middle class white male could never understand discrimination. I think we're making just making completely different arguments that stemmed off from the original topic earlier in the thread.

Lets just agree to disagree?

[Cartalas]

The US economy was born on the backs of slaves. You owe the prosperity you enjoy today to those same people you treated like shit. Rather than show remorse and maybe even gratitude, for lack of a better word, you bitch that the bone given them in the form of Affirmative action isn't fair to you.

I fully expect Met\Cart not being able to understand any of that first paragraph other than the last 6 words.

Gratz Forthe You are hands down the stupidest person I have ever seen type a word.

[Forthe]

Forthe

I thought you couldnt get any more fucking stupid. I was wrong.

We live in today.Not 100 years ago. Africa had tribes selling their own people for slaves, or raiding other tribes and selling them on the "market" And in turn that Market was shopped at by _everyone_ in the world, even blacks. Hate them just as much as the White middle class male folk k?Why should i feel bad for something my own family didnt do, muchless ME?

The old 100 years ago\I didn't do it argument. Your country did do it. You are a citizen of that country. You bear the burden.

The 100 year argument might have some weight if any actions were taken during those 100 years to right the wrongs. It may not seem fair to you now basically because it is long overdue.

Now its "hate" on both sides on the fence,more so from the "minoities". People like you or Ky think its ok for the 'folk to have a reason to hate every whitey today, and thats where the problem lies.I didnt have slaves, my family all of 400 years back didnt have slaves. So as a middle white classed male I get blamed and should get discrimated just because of a lower skilled miniorty wants a job Im going for and he/she gets it over me?

Fuck that and fuck you for being ignorant.

You assume this is a race thing for me. It isn't. It is simply a case of right and wrong. The wrongs have never been made right. The burdens of making it right, that you feel are unfairly placed on your shoulders, have never been assumed. You can blame your parents, their parents, etc for that.

The US economy was born on the backs of slaves.

Grats you vast oversimplification.

You owe the prosperity you enjoy today to those same people you treated like shit.

Again, vast oversimplification.

Slavery allowed a huge accumulation of capital at a very opportune time. I don't think you realize how much of an impact it had.

[Forthe]

The US economy was born on the backs of slaves. You owe the prosperity you enjoy today to those same people you treated like shit. Rather than show remorse and maybe even gratitude, for lack of a better word, you bitch that the bone given them in the form of Affirmative action isn't fair to you.

I fully expect Met\Cart not being able to understand any of that first paragraph other than the last 6 words.

Gratz Forthe You are hands down the stupidest person I have ever seen type a word.

I bet you were captain of your special ed class debate team.

[Raistin]

Hello stupid fuck. When you quote me, try and do it so you get everything I said thought your head first.


Yes the 100+years do stand. I didn't cause anything, nor did my family. Why should the burden be laid apon my shoulders just because of the color of my skin *White*? <---whoa look at that.The color of my skin is not allowing me choices/advancements/promotions/discrimation/scholarships/financial
aid * I dont see white people only scholarships from the Gov,like black,hispanic,native americans- scholarships*.I can go on and on about what is DENIED to white people due to it,and what is GIVEN to a "miniorty" just because of the color or their family back ground.


Im just giving points that are based on facts. You class a type of person together and assume they are the fault for everything.People like you are part of the fault.



Isnt that part of the "debate" is? The effects of things done to a person because of the color of their skin?



[quoet]We live in today.Not 100 years ago. Africa had tribes selling their own people for slaves, or raiding other tribes and selling them on the "market" And in turn that Market was shopped at by _everyone_ in the world, even blacks.[/quote]

I guess your selective reading/stupidity missed this part huh? They had slightly less amount of slaves in Africa,that were owned by black people. I dont see you screaming how "Teh Brotha" held them back.

[noel]

Slavery allowed a huge accumulation of capital at a very opportune time. I don't think you realize how much of an impact it had.

Slavery was nowhere near as prevalent in the North as it was in the South during the industrial age, which was arguably the time of greatest economic advancement in the early US. To pretend that the entire US economy's prosperity can be attributed to tobacco and cotton plantations is preposterous. Even if your assertion had validity on the scale you'd like to think it does, what would you have us do?

You act as though the US was the only country that used slavery to gain an economic advantage. Instead of criticizing the US for acts that went on over 150 years ago, why not accept the fact that there is a small minority of our people perpetuating that bullshit today, not the vast majority, and that the large majority of us would like to put it behind us, and move on as equals.

There isn't a person on this planet that's another race that I owe a fucking thing because of something my ancestors might or might not have done.

[Zamtuk]

One clear form of racism today I think is in the comedy business. People like Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and DL Hughley (who is a racist piece of shit) all joke about whites in their stand ups. Switch it around. What if Robin Williams were to go up on stage and crack a black joke? There would be fucking madness.

[Xyun]

No shit? Thanks for pointing out the obvious. You obviously don't understand why this is the case. Reverse racism is racism, I agree. I also agree that it should not exist. However, I know why it exists today. It exists in an attempt to correct a mistake made by the entire society less than half a century ago. I am whole-heartedly against affirmative action. But apparently, the majority of this country believes that it is necessary at this time.


Kriista, the difference between a gay pride parade and a KKK parade is phenomenal. You are absolutely correct that the government is making a way of thought illegal. I'm not sure I understand why you think this should not be the case. There are many many ways of thought that are illegal in this and other countries. Law is based on philosophy, and if a certain philosophy is abhorrent, it should be illegal. Racism is such a philosophy.


If a person cannot tolerate the prevailing way of thought of his own society, he/she will be made a pariah of that society. If a person cannot tolerate a segment of his own society, he/she should not be a part of that society.

[vn_Tanc]

you do understand the difference between hatred and violence dont you?
i didnt say nazi/jew assaulting, or masoginist/raping marches/parades, just people expressing their views/opinions, which if you havent noticed, happen to be minority opinions in the US

I understand it clearly. To term these "unpopular views" is a little tame IMO. Of course I'm ponly really talking about the Nazi thing because I've never heard of an organisation promoting the repression of women (but then I'm not from the US so feel free to enlighten me).
Nazi organisations preach a creed of hate and are notoriously violent. Damn straight I'm against them marching and spreading their opinions.
[/code]

[Kriista]

Kriista, the difference between a gay pride parade and a KKK parade is phenomenal. You are absolutely correct that the government is making a way of thought illegal. I'm not sure I understand why you think this should not be the case. There are many many ways of thought that are illegal in this and other countries. Law is based on philosophy, and if a certain philosophy is abhorrent, it should be illegal. Racism is such a philosophy.


If a person cannot tolerate the prevailing way of thought of his own society, he/she will be made a pariah of that society. If a person cannot tolerate a segment of his own society, he/she should not be a part of that society.

over half the constitution/bill of rights is meant to protect people with 'abhorrent' thoughts the freedom to think what htey like, and much more, expess these thougths

ones opinions/thoughts are a door that once legislation opens, it cannot close/draw lines
if being a racist, or sexist becomes illegal, what happens if we have another unpopular war, will expressing that sentiment too be illegal?
how will the gov know what people are thinking?, perhaps offer some sort of ransom for 'thougth criminals' ?, perhaps installing chips in us, cameras/mics in our homes?

making certain opinions/philosophies illegal opens the door RIGHT open for big brother to come on through

another big disctinction i find most people cant make is between thinking and acting
hating women is a WORLD different from beating/raping them, same applies to other minorityes/ethnicities etc..
you can hate jews up and down the street all you want, the moment you act on it in a violent way, it then becomes illegal, and should be treated accordingly

personally, im all for gay pride marches, million man marches, but im also for nazi rallies, biggot banquets and the such, i find free speech to be something thats worth listening to poeple i disagree with for the right to do so myself, you cant have that cake and eat it too

Nazi organisations preach a creed of hate and are notoriously violent. Damn straight I'm against them marching and spreading their opinions.

notoriously violent?,
nazi != violent
nazi = seperatist/racist,
for example, i decide to become a nazi, but focus on the positive aspects, all i do with my time, is walk around and give white people... flowers
thats wholley within the tennents of racism, i make a disctinction between the race of one person to the other
million man march = racism
affarmative action = racism
gay pride = a sexual form of sexism
women empowerment = sexism

at any point in which you make a distiction between 2 people based on sex/race/ethnicity, you have become an 'ism of one form or another
this line becomes a little fuzzier when you involve religion however, since that does indeed involve a mindset/set of opinions, which can/and do greatly effect the WAY a person is
but nontheless thats another 'ism

[noel]

I wanted to add for Forthe's benefit:

One of the main reasons the Southern states attempted to secede from the US prior to the Civil War was because the abolition of slavery was going to destroy the southern economy. This was not the case in the North where the economy was booming without the use of slaves.

Additionally, what slavery in the 1800s has to do with modern day racism, I have no idea. Given that most white pride assholes want to kill, maim, or ship foreigners back to their native lands, I really don't think modern day hate/racism has anything to do with slavery. Modern day racism stems from ignorance, not economics.

Saying that slavery in the 1800s accounts for the prosperity of the US is definitely one of the more assinine things I've ever seen posted on this board, so grats or something. Given the fact that the majority of the first slaves that were brought to the US, and yes I mean slaves, not indentured servants, were white (typically scotch-irish) I fail to see what slavery has to do with racism at all.

Of course, now would be the time to delve into Canada's history with slavery. Surely Canada would never be involved in something so horrible. Oh wait they did. I guess it's only fun to get all insensed when it's the USA. Tell me, Forthe, is it fair to say that Canada's economy and prosperity was also formed on the back of slaves? I'll answer that for you: No more so than it's fair to say it about the US.

Dont' take my word for it though:
The treatment of slaves in Canada was just as severe as their treatment in the United States. They were punished when they disobeyed their master and in some cases they were whipped, tortured or murdered. Eventually laws were passed which made killing slaves as serious a crime as killing a freedman. Slavery in Canada did not flourish economically as to slavery in America. However, the two countries did have similarities as to those who supported slavery, and as to those who opposed it.

In sum, slavery began to decline in the opening decades of the nineteenth century because of the combination of factors which made slavery uneconomic in Canada, to which must be added the opposition of the law courts throughout British North America from the third quarter of the eighteenth century. When slaves were legally emancipated as of August 1, 1834, there were very few slaves in British North America who had not already obtained their legal freedom. On that date 781,000 slaves were set free in the British Empire. A hundred million dollars were appropriated by the British Government to compensate the slave owners. Not a single dollar was paid in Canada since no claims for compensation were submitted. The institution was no longer of consequence. Although our ancestors endured being captured like animals; to be denounced from African Royalty to another's man possession of property; to face the agony of being separated from their families; of being denied to speak their native tongue, one must acknowledge slavery as part of our history and culture which we should not ignore or feel a sense of humiliation. It is through this unbearable treatment, which made us a strong people. We must look at the positive perspective, as it is the roots of our spirituals which are sung today; it empowered determination to rise above racism. The magnificent contribution that we, Africans, made to Society is a legacy we must convey to future generations of all walks of life.

Now, if you want to talk about the unfair treatment that occurred for nearly 150+ years (since it still goes on today) after the Civil war toward blacks in the US, I'm right there with you, but keep take your revisionist history and shove it up your ass.

[kyoukan]

Canada only technically had slaves because it was in the land that is now called Canada. It was a french colony back then and it wasn't even called Canada at the time.

Prior to and during the civil war Canada offered a safe haven and citizenship for escaped African slaves fleeing the states.

[vn_Tanc]

over half the constitution/bill of rights is meant to protect people with 'abhorrent' thoughts the freedom to think what htey like, and much more, expess these thougths

That's fine but I'm talking about how it's expressed. Where do these "thoughts" come from? From people preaching hatred.

if being a racist, or sexist becomes illegal, what happens if we have another unpopular war, will expressing that sentiment too be illegal?

They all ready are illegal in many senses.

how will the gov know what people are thinking?, perhaps offer some sort of ransom for 'thougth criminals' ?, perhaps installing chips in us, cameras/mics in our homes?

Easy there, tiger. We're talking about massive public demonstrations here not what goes on in people's homes.

making certain opinions/philosophies illegal opens the door RIGHT open for big brother to come on through

I disagree. I'm not a big fan of this "but if A then obviously B & C as well" type of reasoning. It _could_ open the door but need not necessarily do so.

another big disctinction i find most people cant make is between thinking and acting
hating women is a WORLD different from beating/raping them, same applies to other minorityes/ethnicities etc..

Any idiot can see the difference. Yet I doubt anyone was randomly violent to another person without thinking about it first. You seem happy to be hated as long as nobody acts on it. I see an opportunity to remove the problem at it's source - by doing away with the hatred in the first place.

im all for gay pride marches, million man marches, but im also for nazi rallies, biggot banquets

Good for you. As for "Nazi Rallies" then I think you're misusing the term. I think Nationalists are misguided. The British National Party stands on a platform that is basically racist but I don't have a huge problem with that - march away and look like fools. However if Combat 18 wanted to plan a march there is no way in hell it should happen. These are "Nazis" and they preach and practice violence and hatred. So which o you mean? If you really mean that hitler-worshipping violent fascists should be allowed to march in public to celebrate their views then I disagree strongly.

notoriously violent?,
nazi != violent
nazi = seperatist/racist

You give them too much credit.

million man march = racism
affarmative action = racism
gay pride = a sexual form of sexism
women empowerment = sexism

No hatred there. Celebration of diversity, sure. You're stretching definitions an awful long way.

at any point in which you make a distiction between 2 people based on sex/race/ethnicity, you have become an 'ism of one form or another

And I say that to deny there are differences between the races and sexes is fucking idiocy. It's when you deny they are of equal worth that we have problems.
The million man march celebrated diversity yet didn't claim supremacy over others.
As with affirmative action and the gay pride and the rest.

this line becomes a little fuzzier when you involve religion however, since that does indeed involve a mindset/set of opinions, which can/and do greatly effect the WAY a person is
but nontheless thats another 'ism

The only fuzzy things here are your thinking and definitions. In the end EVERYTHING boils down to mindset and opinions, and you absorb that fromo your environment and education. Anyone trying to inculcate values of hatred and violence in others should be curbed IMO, be it based on race, sexual orientation, sex, nationality, politics or religion.

[Xyun]

over half the constitution/bill of rights is meant to protect people with 'abhorrent' thoughts the freedom to think what htey like, and much more, expess these thougths

Ok, I agree with this part of your post.

The difference is where you say no line should exist, I say one should exist. The line should be drawn (and is) at expression. A white supremacist who recruits younger men and teaches them to kill blacks is just as much as fault as those who actually follow through with their action. Therefore, promoting such ways of thought should be (and is) illegal. This is why the KKK can't march through the street.

[noel]

Canada only technically had slaves because it was in the land that is now called Canada. It was a french colony back then and it wasn't even called Canada at the time.

Prior to and during the civil war Canada offered a safe haven and citizenship for escaped African slaves fleeing the states.

Given that we were settled by the English and French as well, I could say that we technically only had slaves because of who initially settled in the land that is now called the United States. If I wanted to get really technical, I could say that slavery was only the responsibility of the US government from 1776 to 1862 when the Emancipation Proclamation was issued. Given the duration that it was allowed by the former British Government, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that slavery went on for a shorter period of time in the US than it did within the british empire, which last I checked, Canada is still a part of.

Prior to and during the Civil War, Northern States of the United States offered a safe haven and citizenship for escaped African slaves fleeing slavery.

I have far better things to do than pick on Canada. Frankly, I have far better things to do than pick apart Forthe's absurd statements, but when anyone makes one that is so far off base, I'm going to respond.

[Kriista]

first a few definitions from dictionary.com

racism:
The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

sexism:
Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.
Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.


hatred/violence is not inherant in either

with that as a basis we get to:

"another big disctinction i find most people cant make is between thinking and acting
hating women is a WORLD different from beating/raping them, same applies to other minorityes/ethnicities etc.. "


"Any idiot can see the difference. Yet I doubt anyone was randomly violent to another person without thinking about it first. You seem happy to be hated as long as nobody acts on it. I see an opportunity to remove the problem at it's source - by doing away with the hatred in the first place. "

and

"If you really mean that hitler-worshipping violent fascists should be allowed to march in public to celebrate their views then I disagree strongly. "

hating doesnt mean your violent, for example, i hate racists, it doesnt mean im violent, much less to them
i think most people would openly say they hate racists/sexists etc..,

"million man march = racism
affarmative action = racism
gay pride = a sexual form of sexism
women empowerment = sexism "

No hatred there. Celebration of diversity, sure. You're stretching definitions an awful long way.

again to the hatred thing, not inherant in 'isms, and even if it was, why not celebrate THAT diversity?!


as far as the whole gov/legislation A = B + C thing, in normal logic/discussion i see where your coming from, those are large bounds i took, but when speaking of the gov, particularly the US one, those assumtions are hardly out of place
hell, the slew of legislation they passed after 9-11 alone is pretty scary, and that only opened a tiny ambigious door, imagine if that door was into peoples heads where that could end up

i think theres lots of racism/sexism in this country, and i doubt it will ever really go away, but i think thats ok, being able to hate someone, or a group of people is fine, i even think it to be greatly american/patriotic
as long as theres no violence, or publicly funded discrimination, in which case, we have laws for those kinds of things

[vn_Tanc]

hating doesnt mean your violent, for example

No, but being violent means you hate - that's my point. Preach enough hatred and violence is inevitable IMO.

again to the hatred thing, not inherant in 'isms, and even if it was, why not celebrate THAT diversity?!

Because that would be pretty fuckin stupid. Again IMO.

i think theres lots of racism/sexism in this country, and i doubt it will ever really go away, but i think thats ok, being able to hate someone, or a group of people is fine, i even think it to be greatly american/patriotic
as long as theres no violence, or publicly funded discrimination, in which case, we have laws for those kinds of things

Then, respectfully, you're cracked
Prevent the spread of hate creeds and you won't have to legislate against the ugly side effects. We've come a long way in terms of racism and sexism in recent decades but we still have a long way to go. Telling people it's ok to hate as long as they don't act on it isn't going to get us anywhere.

[Kylere]

I don't bear the burden of slavery, since none of my ancestors were in the US or were themselves repressed by europeans invading the Americas.

I don't owe anyone anything, and no one owes me anything. For those that feel something is due someone, then please feel free to pay it out of YOUR pocket, I will NOT pay it out of mine.

Forthe, your US bashing is amazingly uninformed, the europeans that settled Canada were equally brutal, callous and evil to those that settled the US. Canada does NOT have a moral high ground on issues of slavery or native people, no matter how much your ethnocentrism screams that it does.

[Cartalas]

The US economy was born on the backs of slaves. You owe the prosperity you enjoy today to those same people you treated like shit. Rather than show remorse and maybe even gratitude, for lack of a better word, you bitch that the bone given them in the form of Affirmative action isn't fair to you.

I fully expect Met\Cart not being able to understand any of that first paragraph other than the last 6 words.

Gratz Forthe You are hands down the stupidest person I have ever seen type a word.

I bet you were captain of your special ed class debate team.

I bet you get your ass pounded by rabid hamsters

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Prior to and during the civil war Canada offered a safe haven and citizenship for escaped African slaves fleeing the states.

The northern states of the US also offered safe havens and passages.

Forthe, that was the most incredibly ignorant and biased load of horseshit I have ever seen spewed. Men from the northern states fought and died to ensure that slavery was abolished. Bottom line is that they spilled their blood and some killed members of their own family to give the slaves their freedom. I would say they sure as fuck don't owe anyone jack or shit past that. Everyone in this country has the same oppurtunities for education. Whether they choose to take advantage of that oppurtunity is entirely in their own hands. If you choose to be a dumbass, then you better be prepared to deal with that later in life.

Discriminating against someone based on their color is wrong. Discriminating against someone because they are a lazy dumbass is not. Unfortunately, many times the affirmative action act rewards people who do not deserve a promotion or employment oppurtunity. I do think it was a necessity early on to even the playing field out, but its time is long long past. I do agree that discrimination of any kind should be met with harsh penalties.

[Forthe]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Aranuil: What product sparked the the early industrial revolution?

Edit:

This article pretty much catches my veiws on it. The reparations share some similarities to those that Canada has for aboriginal people.

http://research.ucsb.edu/cbs/lectures/l ... odson.html

[Kylere]

Hey Forthe, you know what aboriginal means? It means being the first or earliest known of its kind present in a region.

Let me break this down for you, that means they OWNED IT. That means your ancestors STOLE IT from them.

You bear the burden of guilt for the theft and rape of two continents, I hope you sleep well.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

[quote="Forthe"]
Aranuil: What product sparked the the early industrial revolution?
[quote]

That answer would be "water". Water in the form of steam actually. The industrial revolution took place when the steam engine was improved and able to be used to power machines. The interchangeability of mass manufactured parts was the other reason for the industrial revolution.

If you would like more of an education on this, I would suggest picking up some history books. If you have trouble reading them, then by all means ask away.

[noel]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books

Aranuil: What product sparked the the early industrial revolution?

Edit:

This article pretty much catches my veiws on it. The reparations share some similarities to those that Canada has for aboriginal people.

http://research.ucsb.edu/cbs/lectures/l ... odson.html

The cotton gin, the assembly line, interchangable parts and the steam engine.

I answered your question, now answer mine.

1. What does slavery in the 1800s have to do with modern day racism, given that the goals of slavery in the 1800s were extremely different from the goals of modern day racist and hate groups (which are coincidentally not unique to the US)?

2. Why should I personally be apologetic, or give preferential treatment to the modern day black man for things that happened between both of our ancestors (I'm scotch-irish, and have it on good authority that my family never owned slaves but I'll humor you), when I have in fact done nothing negative toward a black person ever?

3. Given that Britain, France, Canada, and the US all participated in the use of slavery, the british empire for by far the longest duration, wouldn't you be better off focusing on the manner in which blacks were treated from 1863 to present day, if your intent was to defame the US?

4. Finally, having read your article, if reparations were to be paid, who would they be paid to?

[Krimson Klaw]

If reperations are paid, does that mean affirmative action will cease to have a place in our society? No?

My wife and I have had this discussion, if we were to get a check from the US government for reperations, we'd send it back. I can do just fine without a handout. Think we are the only black people that feel this way? Don't kid yourself. Even the movie Barbershop addressed this question by having a few of the onscreen actors agree with me. I guess they were portraying the uncle toms and miss daisy drivers

[Wulfran]

Historical correction for Kyou:
The Battle of the Plains of Abraham, which was the climax of the Seven Years war, occured in September 1759. Shortly there after, although the region known now as Quebec was allowed to maintain its "french culture", they were British subjects. Since slaves weren't emancipated until 1834, it still means that there could have been "Canadian slaves" for at least 75 years (not counting any in the areas that made up Upper Canada or present day Southern Ontario).

Aranuil's own quote mentions that at the time of British emancipation, slavery wasn't a widespread practice (hence the no compensation requests from "Canadian" slave owbers?), but it was legal.

North American industry wasn't well suited to slavery: they were too expensive and too much hastle to maintain until the invention of the cotton gin in the early 1800s, when they became a viable (economically) labour source, and then it was related mostly to the cotton plantations. Thus Forthe's statements are not only overly simplistic but incorrect with except for one segment (albeit regionally significant) of the 18-19th century economy.

As far as the reparations issue, I do think its bullshit, but thats another issue for another thread...

[masteen]

Reparations are a fucking fantstic idea!

As most of you know, African people's demand for Reparations rests on three basic propositions:

1. That the mass kidnapping, sale and enslavement of Africans from the 16th through the 19th centuries was one of the most wicked criminal enterprises in recorded human history...

Considering that the kidnapping, sale and enslavement of Africans was done by other Africans, the whole argument for reparations becomes ridiculous. I'm not saying the the Euro empires of the times were free of any level of responsibility, but to say that we (Euros) are solely to blame for the institution of black slavery is bullshit.

[Zamtuk]

If you really want to get even further into history, Africans used slavery way before the other countries named. If I'm not mistaken, the Persians (been a while since i last took world history or west civ 1 so I might be wrong) invented slavery.

[noel]

If you really want to get even further into history, Africans used slavery way before the other countries named. If I'm not mistaken, the Persians (been a while since i last took world history or west civ 1 so I might be wrong) invented slavery.

Yeah, but Forthe is just trying to bash the US.

Incidentally Forthe, I don't really expect an answer to my questions, but in the future if you want to bash the US, our treatment of the Native Americans (nearly genocide), is a far more obvious way to go. It's not something I'll be defending either, so if you start a thread on that, you may just be lucky enough to get Metanis, Cart, and Spang to argue with you. COULD BE FUN.

Edit: Interesting article for those that care about slavery/abolition in Nantucket, and some white people that apparently were able to sympathize/empathize with the black slaves.

[Krimson Klaw]

What does Persia have to do with African slaves again?

[noel]

Perhaps he meant the slaves that were used by the Egyptians?

[Burke]

I've never heard of an organisation promoting the repression of women

They are called Promise Keepers.