30 Hour Work Week

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 10, 2003, 8:37 pm

Pros and cons of a national standard of a 30 hour work week, anything over 30 is OT. Discuss.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » June 10, 2003, 8:43 pm

Id cash in, and retire early.Lets do it

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » June 10, 2003, 8:45 pm

Works for me!!

Oh wait... I am salary.. I don't get OT

and my boss would probably make me work 40 regardless.

In which case it would suck ass!

Acies · Post by **Acies** » June 10, 2003, 8:48 pm

Um, that would rock. Period.

Post by **Xouqoa** » June 10, 2003, 9:49 pm

It would be good if we did that and people were motivated to work extra hard in the 10 less hours each week, but they wouldn't and everything would suffer because of it.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » June 10, 2003, 10:00 pm

no, because employers would just cut back on the hours their current employess get and hire more. I don't want my hours cut back.

Axien_Dellusions · Post by **Axien_Dellusions** » June 10, 2003, 10:32 pm

I can't afford to loose the 40 hours. Loosing 10 extra hours means I'm loosing an extra $200 bucks evey week, so screw that noise.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » June 10, 2003, 10:36 pm

Pro: Lower unemployment because you need four employees to get 120 hours of work, instead of three. Of course, unemployment is 6.1%, so we'd have to import foreign labor or risk lower productivity.

Con: Each employed person takes home 25% less pay. Of course, it's not quite that bad cuz you are taxed less, so the four employees at 30 hrs are putting more cash into play than the three at 40 hrs. Then again, could states survive lower tax revenues right now?

On balance, I think a 30 hour work-week would make the US labor force less competitive in an increasingly global market. Thats the last thing you and I need right now.

Mp

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 10, 2003, 11:38 pm

people who work more than 40 hours a week will do it regardless of what they're supposed to do. It'll never fly, at least for people on salary like yours truly. They certainly aren't going to lease more space for these extra employees or want to pay benefits either.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 11, 2003, 12:05 am

What I was envisioning was something like this.
Pro
More family time which in turn (hopefully) will lower crime rates even if indirectly.
More time to spend money which means more revenue generated.
Less unemployment and more tax dollars without raising taxes.
Potentially less taxes or at least no increases for a long time.

Con
companies would have to raise pay to compensate for the lost hours which would hopefully be offset by the increase in consumer spending.

Venti · Post by **Venti** » June 11, 2003, 3:23 am

Con
companies would have to raise pay to compensate for the lost hours which would hopefully be offset by the increase in consumer spending.

Spoken like someone who gave no consideration for what they just said. What kind of drugs do you do?

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 11, 2003, 9:00 am

Venti wrote:
Con
companies would have to raise pay to compensate for the lost hours which would hopefully be offset by the increase in consumer spending.
Spoken like someone who gave no consideration for what they just said. What kind of drugs do you do?

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 11, 2003, 9:27 am

Venti wrote:
Con
companies would have to raise pay to compensate for the lost hours which would hopefully be offset by the increase in consumer spending.
Spoken like someone who gave no consideration for what they just said. What kind of drugs do you do?

Care to elaborate? Are you saying that it shouldn't be a Con because pay would be raised? Granted the only way a 30 hour work week would work is if all the companies agreed to increase pay. It wouldn't be a con for those who are working but it certainly would for those who Own companies, even small companies. If I phrased it wrong please feel free to correct me. The only drugs I take are the occasional Advil and you're welcome to have as much of that as you want.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 11, 2003, 10:03 am

Companies are having a hard enough time as it is. You think they're going to buy into a system that lowers their productivity, increase the cost of many facets such as staff, benefits, lease, etc.

It'll never go down. Hell, back in '92 when I graduated, most companies had a 35 hour week w/ some doing 37.5 (let alone being able to actually smoke at your desk, oofa). Now some do 37.5 and most do 40. It ain't going down.

Alfan · Post by **Alfan** » June 11, 2003, 11:04 am

"the real reason that the American economy has surged ahead of its European competitors in the past decades. It is not about efficiency. It is simply that Americans work more. Europeans take longer holidays and retire earlier; and many moreEuropean workers are ether unemployed or on strike"

"French and Italians work about 10 to 20 percent fewer hours a year than Americans, [sic] the Germans and Dutch work 25 to 30 percent less"

"The average working American spends 1,976 hours a year on the job. The average German works just 1,545"

Nial Ferguson is a prof. of financial history at the Stern School of Business.
I think this column appeared in The Economist, but i cant remember

Basically, if we cut down work hours without replacing them with some kind of machinery, our domestic output will be woefully crippled. There really is no benefit in this because GDP and unemployment are directly linked. That means more taxes in order to support the exploding growth of old people who don't have any money saved. Not to mention social safety nets for those that are unemployed. And more time to spend money is not generally accepted as an indicator of consumer confidence.
And since when does spending more time with your children deter crime?

-Alfan

Melrin_Specclaster · Post by **Melrin_Specclaster** » June 11, 2003, 12:56 pm

I could do my job in 30 hours. For those that work at big companies, many people could do their job in less hours, they just dont cause they have to work 40+ regardless of actual work load. You spend less time reading webpages, talking about sports, etc, more time working.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 11, 2003, 1:02 pm

i could do my job in 30 hours as could a lot of people.

it wont happen here. It is a solution they have tried in France, but that countries labor problems are nothing i want any part of here.

i think there are other ways to promote job creation that would be more effective in the long term.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » June 11, 2003, 1:08 pm

Here in America, the 40 hour work week will go up before it ever goes down.

I had several friends, whose fathers worked at Kelloggs. They worked every factory employee for 60 hours, for 10 years, and never hired new employees. What a shitty way to spend your life. I mean, the money was awsome, but they all regret it now. You have to draw the line somewhere.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » June 11, 2003, 1:28 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:
Venti wrote:
Con
companies would have to raise pay to compensate for the lost hours which would hopefully be offset by the increase in consumer spending.
Spoken like someone who gave no consideration for what they just said. What kind of drugs do you do?
Care to elaborate? Are you saying that it shouldn't be a Con because pay would be raised? Granted the only way a 30 hour work week would work is if all the companies agreed to increase pay. It wouldn't be a con for those who are working but it certainly would for those who Own companies, even small companies. If I phrased it wrong please feel free to correct me. The only drugs I take are the occasional Advil and you're welcome to have as much of that as you want.

It wouldn't happen that way though. Employers would just cut hours, then cut pay. They can't just raise pay then hire more employees to make up for the work the other employees can't do in 30 hours. Most companies have to deal with a labor percentage to meet every week. High labor = not make any money = close down.

Trias · Post by **Trias** » June 11, 2003, 1:44 pm

i'd just find a second full time job ^^

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » June 11, 2003, 2:16 pm

i'd just find a second full time job

Honestly I think a lot of people would do that: they'd have the additional time available, so provided they could stagger the work schedules, I can see people following this path. I also think a lot of people who are making marginal incomes (i.e. just barely able to make ends meet) would pursue additional part time work.

The true impact of this would be on the corporations, not the individuals. They would either have to pay existing employees increased overtime (thus driving up labour costs) or hire more employees (also driving up labour costs). Even with minimal/zero benefits, it still costs a company more money to have more employees, just based on things like increased payrolls, increased workplace insurance, etc (not counting things like Worker's Compensation or Unemployment insurance that employers have to pay in Canada). Some companies would not be able to absorb additional labour costs on this scale and would either have to cut wages and benefits or fold.

Venti · Post by **Venti** » June 11, 2003, 4:01 pm

Venti wrote:
Quote:
Con
companies would have to raise pay to compensate for the lost hours which would hopefully be offset by the increase in consumer spending.

Spoken like someone who gave no consideration for what they just said. What kind of drugs do you do?

Care to elaborate? Are you saying that it shouldn't be a Con because pay would be raised? Granted the only way a 30 hour work week would work is if all the companies agreed to increase pay. It wouldn't be a con for those who are working but it certainly would for those who Own companies, even small companies. If I phrased it wrong please feel free to correct me. The only drugs I take are the occasional Advil and you're welcome to have as much of that as you want.

What I mean it seems you are saying that employers would wake up one day and say,
"My employees should work 25% less, and I should pay them the same, thereby inflating my costs for labor/services". The only way that works, is if at the same time, you can get your customer base to pay a proportional increase to your business for its products/services that offsets the catastrophic loss of gross profit that your model induces.

In my world, thats called a really really bad business idea, and while I would appreciate the philosophical idea of betterment of all mankind....I'd be appreciating it while I wrote the severance check of the dumbass that actually suggested it in my company.

I am curious though, in what successful business model does a reduction of output by 25% earn the same pay? If none, then I return you to your regularly scheduled mental masturbation on the topic.

Diae Soulmender · Post by **Diae Soulmender** » June 11, 2003, 4:28 pm

What prompted this topic? Something I miss?

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » June 11, 2003, 5:20 pm

So let me get this straight, just so I understand.

Bubba - you are proposing we consider the implications of a national 30 hour work week. By this you mean the United States? By this you also mean that base salary remains the same?

I'm with Venti - it's purely delusional that the American Economy can just "absorb" a 25% loss in productivity on the basis that these people will spend more because they have more leisure time. (wtf...?) or because, as others have suggested, that at least 25% of a workers time is unproductive/unneeded anyway, so why be at work?

I understand some days that it is easy to muse"Wow, wouldn't it be great if I didn't have to work so much. Just think of all the great things I could be doing to better myself and society if I wasn't working".

Now, it IS possible to effect this change, but it will seriously reduce our country's productivity and our economy in a detrimental way (in theory). It's not like other countries don't have shorter work weeks. Hell, the robber barons of the 19th and early 20th centuries cried like babies at ANY possibility that the work week could be reduced from it's previous, what many of us would consider inhumane, levels and yet we're doing fine (ok, my definition of "fine" is probably in a different stratosphere than some of the free thinkers here, but I'll let that one go).

I don't doubt (or at least I hope) that someday technology or societal change would allow for us to "enjoy" more of our time in this world - but just proposing "Hey, let's work less and spend more - it'll all work out" just doesn't jibe in my book.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 11, 2003, 5:34 pm

Overtime is a nice thought, I've been salaried since '81.

My 100+ hour workweeks when I was in the Navy would have made for some nice paychecks, even at minimum wage.

I average 50-60 hours a week now, occasionaly higher.

Ooga[foh] · Post by **Ooga[foh]** » June 11, 2003, 6:13 pm

I hate working. Period.

I get laid off this friday. Life is good.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 11, 2003, 8:53 pm

This all came about when I was working in a cube among a bazillion other cubes. I realized that I spend more time with my coworkers than I do with my own family. I would put in close to 50 hours a week to get the OT for a nice check so I could spend it on my family. A family that I don't see as much as I do my coworkers. Sure there are the weekends (if you aren't working a Saturday) but that is shared between family, other relatives, friends, and if you are lucky some time away from everyone for some peace and quiet.

I just thought that the perfect solution would be to have a 30 hour work week. I know that it would never happen and that there a numerous reasons why it would never happen but I still felt that it would be the most awesome thing. Knowing that you could work 3 ten hour days and 4 day weekends to spend with friends and family. Actually have time to go to the store or better yet to the bank without having to break land speed records to get there, or even to just get a haircut without waiting in line for 30 minutes.

Knowing that people are working and providing some income instead of collecting unemployment (which some of us prolly have had to do) is a happy thought. The hope that the crime rate would drop because more parents are home spending time with their children instead of letting them run wild without supervision made me think of a place that would be great for raising children.

This is all hypothetical. If you ever had to slave away in a cube you might even relate. I wasn't thinking about the whole planet, just my little piece of it (being the US). Sorry to make so many of you freak out, as if this was something even possible.