update...

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » May 28, 2003, 11:22 am

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/loc ... Dheadlines

A Central Florida group lost two court battles Tuesday to stop the court-ordered abortion for a severely retarded South Florida woman.

First, Circuit Judge Arthur Rothenberg in Miami denied a request from the Liberty Counsel to stop the abortion, which could occur as early as today. The counsel then appealed to the 3rdDistrict Court of Appeal, which also rejected the group's motions.

Glad to see the fuckers (Jeb and his goons in the Liberty Counsel) getting the finger by the circuit judge.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 28, 2003, 11:40 am

Read the article again.
The case involving the 22 year old Orlando woman is still up in the air.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 28, 2003, 12:01 pm

The sanctimoniousness of these "pro-Life" advocates sickens me. I'm sure they'd feel the same fucking way if their child/sister/relative was raped in State care, leavng them with a child that no one consented to except the rapist. Who the fuck do these interfering assholes think they are?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » May 28, 2003, 12:11 pm

TEHY ARE PROTECTIN TEH BABIEEEZ!!!!

Fuck the women. Protect teh feetus!

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 28, 2003, 1:50 pm

I am on the fence when it comes to abortion, have been all of my adult life. I have yet to make up my mind on this issue. Off the top of my head, I am against it. Then I factor in all the special case scenarios, like this one, that should be able to go forward with an abortion. I don't think I'll ever make a decision, it's been 10+ years and counting and I am still at a stand still on the issue.

Post by **Sylvus** » May 28, 2003, 2:37 pm

While my views on it are probably just a little bit more liberal than yours, Krimson, the special case scenarios are precisely the reason that I think it is important for the right to have a choice in the matter be preserved. Personally, I would never tell a woman that I impregnated that she should have an abortion. That doesn't mean I have any right to say that nobody should be allowed to.

I also find the names of the two camps to be a bit unfair. Pro-Life and Pro-Choice seems to inherently imply that if you are for choice that you are against life and, at least in my case, that's not the case at all. I'd rather that people didn't have to make the choice, but I think it's very important that choice is an option.

I eagerly await the rest of this thread, the issue of abortion generally tends to lead to level-headed, civil debates!

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 28, 2003, 2:43 pm

I eagerly await the rest of this thread, the issue of abortion generally tends to lead to level-headed, civil debates!

STFU BABY KILLER!!1!111!

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 28, 2003, 2:52 pm

Its not my body, I'm not the attending physician and if its not my partner, who the hell am I to sit in judgement? I don't like the idea of abortion as means of birth control, especially funded by the government/taxpayers, however I look at it, in very large part, as none of my business. In cases like the above, does it do the mother good to have to carry a child of a rape to term? What good does it do a child to be forced into a situation where the mother doesn't want it? Will the courts rule that the mother has to be placed in custody to ensure she can't drink, smoke or do anything else that may harm the unborn fetis? Will the courts ensure that the baby will be taken away from an apathetic mother and placed into an environment that it will be loved and nurtured?

The girls in these cases didn't even have the choice (or the legal ability to make the choice) about consenting to have sex, yet governments and totally uninvolved crusaders are fighting to protect these "lives", which in one case the doctors have deemed it a medical necessity.

To me abortion is an(other) issue where too much religion is a bad thing: it overwrites people's common sense and tries to inflict someone's values on someone else and their life.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » May 28, 2003, 4:26 pm

I am glad I am not the judges in these cases.

I am very pro-choice. While I would never ask anyone to get an abortion if I was responsible, I think it is every woman's right to get one if she chooses too. I hate seeing a stupid teenage mother having babies with no idea how to take care of them. She not only ruins her life but the baby's as well. That is what pisses me off abotu teh Pro-lifers. They go crazy about abortions but they say nothing about all the unwanted and uncared for children living in poverty.

I do believe though that abortions shouldn't be allowed after the second trimester unless the mother's health is at risk. The problem in this case is that these women probably have no idea what is going on and the one woman's pregnancy is threatening her life.

If the 22 year old woman's baby is healthy then I think 6 months is too late to have an abortion. It should be carried to term, delivered by c-section and then placed for adoption. If I was a doctor, I would refuse to perform abortions on any fetus after the second trimester unless it was disabled or unhealthy or threatening the mother in some way.

Deward

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 28, 2003, 4:53 pm

Why delivered by c-section?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 28, 2003, 5:08 pm

because the woman in this case is too retarded or brain damaged or whatever that she isn't even aware of her surroundings much less capable of delivering a baby.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 28, 2003, 5:48 pm

Ah ok, he was referencing this particular woman, not a blanket statement for all.

Dalmoth · Post by **Dalmoth** » May 28, 2003, 7:07 pm

Abortion will always been an act that illicits emotions.

Ultimately for me I support Pro-Choice for a few simple reasons.

1. We have enough people on the planet now
2. Unwanted children is truly a disheartening thing to witness
3. Abortion will still occur even if illegal, and it won't be as safe.

The government could try and end it, but it will not end abortion.

I agree with Wulf though, it is an abhorrent means of birth control. It should be only the exception cases where it becomes necessary.

Freedom of choice, even to choose poorly is a basic premise this country is founded on.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 28, 2003, 7:21 pm

I'm not anti-abortion but I don't think it should be used as a method of birth control. There's enough ways out there to protect yourself from an unwanted pregnancy that if you wind up getting pregnant it's your own fucking fault 99.9% of the time. There are plenty of couples around that can't conceive that sit on adoption lists for years before given the chance to have a newborn baby given to them, so it's not like the babies will be unwanted.

My ex boyfriend (who is now one of my best friends) was an adopted baby who's mother gave him up right after he was born because she wasn't ready to raise a child yet. The notion that he might not have ever even existed if his birth mother believed in abortion is quite chilling to me and was the major influence that changed my opinion from being solidly pro-choice to more of a fence sitter on the issue.

On one hand I don't think the government should be able to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies according to their own morals and religous/ethtical ideals. On the other hand when you get an abortion you are basically killing a potential human life who could grow up to be just about anything.

This is mostly from a north american perspective though. The economy and land available and natural resources like food and water are so abundant that there is no strain on the population. Abortion is a necessity
in regions like Asia where there's just too many people to manage.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » May 28, 2003, 10:31 pm

The ironic thing is that with today's legal system they will have given birth and paid for their children's college education before it's finally settled.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 28, 2003, 10:50 pm

a retarded lady got raped and is being influenced by pro life people to keep the baby, i dont see how this is a controversial issue at all, besides the face that this takes place in my hometown...area

and about the abortion issue, im about as pro life as you can get, if it was illigal to have abortions then most likely the people would have taken stronger measures and the fetus would not have ever exsisted, is never exsisting any different then being a mindless vegitable for a couple months,?hell if your religious and believe in a heaven and hell, how much of a better way is there to go? option 2 is they can have the abortion illigaly, meaning that the mother could die, and the abortionist can be thrown in jail for a form of murder, or the mother could be forced to carry out a baby for 9 months she does not wish to have for a little mistake she made and ive never been pregnant but im sure thats pretty damn miserable

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » May 30, 2003, 10:04 am

kyoukan wrote:I'm not anti-abortion but I don't think it should be used as a method of birth control. There's enough ways out there to protect yourself from an unwanted pregnancy that if you wind up getting pregnant it's your own fucking fault 99.9% of the time. There are plenty of couples around that can't conceive that sit on adoption lists for years before given the chance to have a newborn baby given to them, so it's not like the babies will be unwanted.

Damn skippy. I have more liberal views on abortion than my parents, but I'm not an "every-reason-goes" individual. You make the choice before you get in the sack. You don't take precautions, you are most likely going to get pregnant. Don't want to chance needing to terminate a pregnancy because you were stupid? Then think about it before you have sex.

I will also agree that the majority of "pro-life protesters" don't give any thought to what happens after their 3 hour sidewalk time slot is over. There are very few organizations (of which I know) that actually provide assistance and after-birth care to women who choose not to terminate their pregnancies. If the pro-life camp ever wishes to convince the masses, that has to change.

Forced sterilization is something I loathe (China), but when you see a 16 year old in New Orleans having her 4th kid, it becomes evident how stupid people really are. Yeah, we're the land of the free...don't touch my freedoms, etc...but you know what? You have responsibilities for your freedoms and living off the government teat and subjecting future generations to the same life isn't being responsible. You can't control yourself or be responsible? Fine, here, we'll do it for you. Obviously natural selection was on vacation the day you were conceived. *snip*

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » May 30, 2003, 10:47 am

Don't want to chance needing to terminate a pregnancy because you were stupid? Then think about it before you have sex

Try thinking about it rationally when you're drunk and horny.
It's tougher then you think.

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » May 30, 2003, 10:51 am

If you know that's a problem, there are other prevention solutions. No method is 100% effective but there's more than just the pill or condoms.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 30, 2003, 11:49 am

vn_Tanc wrote:
Don't want to chance needing to terminate a pregnancy because you were stupid? Then think about it before you have sex
Try thinking about it rationally when you're drunk and horny.
It's tougher then you think.

The key is prior preparation. Having the condoms handy before going out and getting fucked up is a good thing.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » May 30, 2003, 1:00 pm

Yes yes that's all very well but I guess you people just don't get as drunk and horny as us brits

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » May 30, 2003, 1:13 pm

Vaemas wrote:I will also agree that the majority of "pro-life protesters" don't give any thought to what happens after their 3 hour sidewalk time slot is over. There are very few organizations (of which I know) that actually provide assistance and after-birth care to women who choose not to terminate their pregnancies. If the pro-life camp ever wishes to convince the masses, that has to change.

That's what infuriates me most about the "pro-lifer" platform. It's never about life to them, it's about anti-abortion. You can't say you want life over everything else then watch as that life rots away because you won't support programs of assistance.

As far as the fence goes, personally, I sit right in the middle of it myself. However, I would never support an anti-abortion candidate and it is the first thing I use as a benchmark when I vote

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 30, 2003, 2:55 pm

My dad's first wife was incapable of having children, so they sat on an adoption list for 3 years. They adopted my brother, so I naturally have the same feeling on adoption that Kyoukan does.

When my older sister was contemplating abortion 6 years ago, my dad freaked out on her. He knows how hard it is to be able to want children and not be able to have them because of medical reasons.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 30, 2003, 4:39 pm

I think the brits have to be pretty shitfaced to even stand the sight of each other in order to procreate.

Its the teeth.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 30, 2003, 4:41 pm

/agree Kyoukan

This is one of those places I believe the conservatives are being utterly retarded. You cannot apply an absolute to this situation.

Asnd if getting drunk and horny is causing you to do stupid things, here's an idea....

Don't get drunk, dumbass.