The Matrix Has You

[Drustwyn]

Saw the Matrix tonight at 10:00 PM

Not going to give a big drawn out review, because it would be full of spoilers... but it was very very very good.

You find out some cool stuff, and there is somewhat of a surprise twist of things at the end (surprised me at least).

Be sure to stick around after the (excrutiatingly long) credits roll, so you can see preview of the last film.

[Calixte]

The fight scenes/special effects were awesome, but I left the theater feeling.... disappointed.

shrug. My friends loved it, as did most of the crowd.

[Drustwyn]

My friends felt the same thing as they left the theatre.. I wasn't necessarily dissapointed though. I had a very enjoyable time. The fight scenes were incredible.

One critique: Minor spoiler to some I guess.

IMHO the 'deep' stuff seemed to be all in one scene (maybe two) rather than throughout the whole thing.... In the first movie, Neo's discovery of who he was, the matrix itself, and all the 'deep' concepts were throughout the whole thing..

[Echols]

WOW. There's not much else you can say about this movie. It starts off a bit slow, but once it kicks into gear, it's just non-stop jawdropping goodness.

I had really high hopes for this movie at first, but after reading a couple of insider reviews on aint-it-cool-news.com I began to think it might not be as good as I'd hyped it up to be in my mind. I can honestly say that it met all my original expectations, before I had read any reviews, and then
easily surpassed them. Harry Knowles and his merry band of fuckasses who submitted negative reviews about the movie and lowered my expectations can suck my fuck.

I'd recommend that anyone who is able to, download a copy of the animatrix DVD off of bittorrent or newsgroups before you see the movie. If it was out already, I'd tell you to rent it or buy it, but since it's stupidly being released on june 3rd, you can't. Anyway, it lets you in on some cool bits of information regarding the matrix, and you'll see a kid from one of the animatrix stories playing a small role in the movie.

Overall I'd give this a 9.5/10. It is by far the best action movie I've ever seen, and it really does raise the bar in terms of special effects and fighting choreography in movies. There are quite a few scenes in the movie where your mind won't be able to convince your eyes that what you're seeing isn't real, it's THAT good. While I'll admit that there are a few short moments where the color on someone's face is a little flat, or the lighting is a bit weird, almost all of the CG shots are 100% totally life-like. I don't think there was a split second in the entire 14 minute car chase scene where I thought "that's fake", and that's really saying something. The only thing I had a hard time believing is how goddam hot Monica Bellucci is in her costume. Carrie Anne Moss is right up there with her though, I almost needed to do what the woman who ate the cake did after seeing the two of them standing around together in the bathroom (You'll know what I mean when you see it).

Anyway, I'm blabbering. Awesome movie, go see it now. Stop reading VV, go see the damn movie right now. RIGHT. NOW. But as Drustwyn said, don't go anywhere until the credits are over to see that matrix revolutions preview.

[kyoukan]

wow do u haev movey theaters in canada?!

[Etasi]

Yeah Kyou, they even have special places out front where you can tie up your moose and polar bears!

[Kithyen]

I saw the movie at 10pm....That's right. Who wants to touch me?









I said, "WHO WANTS TO FUCKIN' TOUCH ME?"

Anyways, all that crap aside, it was a decent movie. Was it groundbreaking? In special effects, fight choreography, yes it was. In storyline/plot/acting/character development? Well. It could use a bit of work, but that's what action movies are supposed to be. The good ones have some decent twists and turns, but most of it gets shadowed by the intense fight scenes. It's what I expected. It's what I got. I spent my $8.50 wisely.

/rant *ON*
On another note all the fucktards who are turning into starwars fans trying to dress up like agents and neo in their daddy's business suits and ghetto ass clothes from Hot Topic can go straight to hell. If I have one more idiot in a business suit and tie try to stare me down as if I'm intimidated by his eyes barely visible thru his $10 BP gas station sun-glasses, I'm gonna show em how deep the rabbit's asshole really goes.
/rant *OFF*

Kithyen

[Breagen]

Wow. I thought this movie was pretty amazing myself, the fight scenes and CG was just jawdropping compared to lot of other movies that try to pull off similar effects.

Granted being a action movie it did not have the most amazing performances or dialogue etc it was still very well done in my opinion. Although it will never replace the first Matrix I think, there is just something about being the first movie that no matter how good I can't see a sequel being truly better than the original movie.

Overall I would say that just about anyone that is remotely interested in the movie should see it, and even if you did not like the first one, its worth it just for the fight scenes and whatnot.

[Kriista]

i was really impressed with the movie,

i particularly liked the fact that they kept with the whole philosophical aspect of the first, it was almost ayn randish at some points as far as 'character as philosiphy', ala the determinist french guy

the fight scenes were outstanding, and im not much for straight up action movies

the only part that i didnt like was the ending, i woudlve prefered if they gave it SOME sort of plot closure, its like those cheezy sitcoms that build up to a 'to be continued...' at the last minute,

[Cotto]

Well suppose you only have to wait about 5 months for the second part.

<twitch>

[Etasi]

This might qualify as a spoiler, be warned!




I'm not a big fan of artificial cliffhangers either, but because Matrix: Revolutions is being released so soon (as far as movie sequels usually go) after Reloaded, I expected some really huge, annoying, "omg are they all gonna die or not?!?!?!" kind of cliffhanger, and I'm relieved that they didn't do that. They provided closure for all of the major plot elements in Reloaded, and left the cliffhanger as something more general.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

The 30 minute high way chase itself was worth the 10 dollars...rest of the movie was simply astonishing - especially seeing Reeves' ass for like 30 seconds!!!

[Xzion]

very badass, it kept true the the original with the philosophys etc, and was not a action peice of shit flick ripped out of someones ass to make a few million bucks

in a few years, the matrix trilogy will be a classic up there amoung films


**************SLIGHT SPOILER BUT NOT REALLY A SPOILER AT ALL*****************************





looked like the dude that was with the oracle was doing some badass Hapkido

[Deward]

Did they actually get Keanu to act in this one or is it his normal shitty acting performance? I like the movies he has been in but he is a really horrid actor. Maybe there is enough action to keep him form spouting lines though.

Deward

[Fallanthas]

They provided closure for all of the major plot elements in Reloaded

What movie did you just go see?

If anything kills the release of the third flick, ti will be the fact that the plot of Reloaded went absolutely nowhere.

And the Brothers really need to lay off the Simulacra shit.


Excellent effects.

Good, but over-prdouced fight choreography

Craptastic storyline

Acting? What acting?

[Animalor]

Swearing in french. It's like wiping your ass with silk.

This got the biggest reaction out of the crowd I saw the movie with.

As per the story, I though it was excellently crafted. Leaves open a LOT of room for debate as to whatever the hell is going on. I have my own theory as to how the world of the matrix works.

Can't wait till part 3 to see if I was right or not.

[Kylere]

Okay seen it

You know what?

L A M E

If you ignore the action sequences ( that were a little stupid at times ) and T H I N K about the plot. It was dumb as all hell. Nice of them to make Neo so gimpy after he was god like at the end of the first one.

Worst sequel since Highlander 2

[Aaeamdar]

Interesting. My take is almost mirror opposite to most posting here.

The story, though it recieved way to little screen time, I thought was fantastic. It solidified the questions being asked by The Matrix (M1) and just went deaper. As metphore, I thought M1/MR have posited philosophical questions as well as many of the classics.

My let down in MT WAS the action/special effects. The action sequences were in many cases completely pointless. Almost like an old Kung Fu movie. "Hmm, 7 minutes have passed, better have the ninja's jump out of the trees and fight. What do you mean it makes no sense?! Come on - its cool, they are ninjas." The special effects, however, were just poor and the CGI is overused. Maybe I am spoiled by what WETA accomplished on TTT, but hey, that's the bar I am expecting now if you want to wow me with CGI. Neo CGI looked it, big time. It could have been an add for the Playstation.

But putting aside the pointless fighting and the one completely gratuitous sex sceen, this is a very solid movie.

I think the folks commenting here on the story, however, have really missed the boat. IMO, The Matrix trillogy (so far - they can blow it in M3 if they pander to LCD audience intellegnce, but they have avoided that so far) is one of the finest, if not the finest piece of philosophical work done on film. The story is rich with questions (and thankfully devoid of answers) about freedom, perception, religion, and psychology.

If a spoiler thread gets started, I'll discuss some of these things in greater detail, but I will say that I highly recommend this film, unless you are going to it with the expectation of seeing a cutting edge action/SE film, in which case, you are going to be disappointed. If you go into the film with the intent on really discussing it afterwards, you won't be disapointed at all. IMO, the Matrix trillogy (again, assuming M3 lives up to M1 and MR) will be a trillogy talked about for a long time.

[Animalor]

Okay seen it

You know what?

L A M E

If you ignore the action sequences ( that were a little stupid at times ) and T H I N K about the plot. It was dumb as all hell. Nice of them to make Neo so gimpy after he was god like at the end of the first one.

Worst sequel since Highlander 2

Kylere == Scott Kurtz wannabe?

[Cotto]

Okay seen it

You know what?

L A M E

If you ignore the action sequences ( that were a little stupid at times ) and T H I N K about the plot. It was dumb as all hell. Nice of them to make Neo so gimpy after he was god like at the end of the first one.

Worst sequel since Highlander 2

Kylere == Scott Kurtz wannabe?

Get out of my head! i was about to say that!

[Etasi]

Spoilers ahead~

They provided closure for all of the major plot elements in Reloaded

What movie did you just go see?

If anything kills the release of the third flick, ti will be the fact that the plot of Reloaded went absolutely nowhere.

And the Brothers really need to lay off the Simulacra shit.


Excellent effects.

Good, but over-prdouced fight choreography

Craptastic storyline

Acting? What acting?

Err, what movie did you just go see? If you thought the plot of this movie went nowhere then you obviously weren't paying attention. The scene with the Architect alone provides a major shakeup of the entire Matrix world and deeply effects all of the main characters in the movie. That scene is the biggest turning point in the story so far, and even if the rest of the movie had been totally devoid of plot (which it wasn't), that scene would have made up for it in terms of what it provided to the story.

As for my assertion that there was closure for all of the major plot elements in the Matrix Reloaded, perhaps I should have been more clear. Obviously they couldn't resolve every crisis in the story in Reloaded, for then there would be little point in having a third movie. However, I felt that they did indeed end all of the plot elements specific only to the Matrix Reloaded, rather than leaving the ending hanging on something stupid like "what happened when Neo got to the Source?" that would have been resolved within the first five minutes of Revolutions. Certainly we are left with questions at the end of Reloaded, but they are vague, and are relatively the same questions as those which with we began the movie: "how will Neo save humanity?" "will the Matrix be destroyed?" etc, questions which require another entire movie to answer.

I did not mean to imply that I thought all of the loose ends had been tied up, because obviously they cannot be until the end of the third movie. However, the major plot element specific to Reloaded, namely, the quest for the Source, has been resolved and completed. The repercussions of Neo's actions at the end of that quest were only hinted at in the end of Reloaded, and rightly so, for that gives us a reason to care what happens in Revolutions.

I have to say, I really wonder what exactly people expected out of this movie. I have heard complaints about the acting, but the acting quality is the same, if not better (on Reeves' part at least) in Reloaded as in the Matrix 1.

There are those who complain about how Neo isn't godly enough in Reloaded, but everything he did in the Matrix 1, he improved upon in Reloaded, with the sole exception of breaking apart the code of other denizens of the Matrix, and for good reason. When he destroyed Agent Smith at the end of the first movie, Neo irrevocably altered both himself and the Matrix. This becomes obvious to him fairly quickly, if only subconciously, for it changes the very way he thinks and the way he relates to other humans, as the Architect notes in their meeting. As for Agent Smith, he is now taking over the Matrix, and if left unchecked, will posess every one of its inhabitants. It seems only logical that Neo would not be willing to destroy other programs in the Matrix the way he did Agent Smith, for he has no way of knowing how it will affect either himself or the Matrix.

As far as the rest of Neo's powers go, I fail to see how he is weaker than he was in Matrix 1. All he did in Matrix 1 was stop bullets, flail his arms around really fast, break apart Agent Smith, and fly. I don't include his resurrection because it seems that his return to life was possible only because of his relationship with Trinity, and the second movie does nothing to dissuade me on this point, as Reloaded emphasizes rather than degrades the link between Neo and Trinity.

What exactly is the basis of the complaint that Neo is a weakling now and a god in Matrix 1? He is just as fast as he was in the first movie in terms of his fighting ability (perhaps moreso as he is able to fight 100+ men simultaneously and determine all of their locations and movements at once), he can stop just as many bullets, and he can fly faster than he ever could before, faster than even the Machines thought possible (as they assumed that he could not reach Trinity in time). In addition, he has the godly power of resurrection, at least in the Matrix, and can restore others to life simply by manipulation of the code. Also, the end of the movie hints that Neo might possibly understand how to manipulate the laws of physics in the real world as well as in the Matrix.

Perhaps what people wanted was for Neo to take people out in one punch, or to think them out of existence, but what fun would the movie have been if he did either of those things? To wish for such things is to ignore the foundation upon which the entire Matrix franchise is built: really cool action and fight scenes.

Perhaps the complaint is that the fight scenes feel slower paced or less intense than those in other movies (although I personally disagree). In my opinion, this is due to the previous requirement, due to limitations in technology, that directors cut fight scenes approximately 1018590158 times a minute (hopefully it's obvious that I'm exaggerating). In Reloaded, we could see the complete arc of a character's body as they leap from the ground, into the air, kick someone in the head, and land. Never before could we have seen that in a movie, at least not a movie that required the characters to move in ways that the human body is not capable of without assistance. The longer shots might lead the watcher to feel that the fights are slower paced or less intense, but really, there is just as much, if not more, going on in the fight scenes in Reloaded as in those in other movies.

Those who say that the special effects in this movie were anything less than cutting edge are misinformed. There was a great article in Wired (I think, I'll try to find it) which discussed the revolutions in technology that were necessary to produce all of the action in Reloaded. I feel that the complaint about poor effects quality stems from scenes such as the fight with the 100 Agent Smiths, in which some portions show a Neo that is obviously not real. However, the question should not be "does he look 100% real or not?" but rather, "how much more real does he look than similar CG characters in other movies?" Reloaded and Revolutions employed a new technology that allowed the Wachowski brothers to animate scenes that would never have been believeable in any way in previous movies.

Here I would point to many of the scenes from Spiderman, in which it was always extremely obvious that Spiderman was CG because his body moved in ways that a real human body would not. I looked for similar occurences in Reloaded but did not see any. Instead, the problem now is a lack of detail, compounded by the attempt to show CG characters moving in extremely slow motion. If you think about the fight with the 100 Agent Smiths, the thing you must keep in mind is that Neo was not the only computer generated character in that scene, but it seemed to me that he is the only one your mind ever questions, because he is the only one they focus on in slow motion. When they are moving at normal speed, your mind doesn't question all of the Agent Smiths in the scene, because they look exactly like Hugo Weaving.

The best example to prove my point about the revolution in special effects heralded by Reloaded and Revolutions is Neo's flying scenes, especially those that show a closeup of his face. To my knowledge, Keanu Reeves was never filmed for any of those scenes; instead, the flying scenes, even the extreme closeups of his face, were computer generated. You'd never know it by just looking, though. That's pretty amazing, in my opinion.

Lest it be assumed that I'm just a huge Matrix fangirl who believes that the Wachowski brothers can do no wrong, I did in fact have a few gripes about Reloaded. However, my overall opinion was that it was a great action movie, a great continuation of what was done in the first movie, and was pretty much what I expected based on what was given to us in Matrix 1.

[Aaeamdar]

While I agree on many of your points, I take issue with two.

The second - "how much more real does he look than similar CG characters in other movies?"

I agree, and I think WETA did a much much better job. I cannot tell the difference in TTT between Orc that are CGI and those that are in Costume. The same can be said of he Elves and Humans as well. The CGO in MR was inferior to the CGI in TTT. I do agree with your comment about the Agent Smith CGI - that was superb. But the Neo CGI was not. And it is not just when he is fighting Smith that the flaws are apparent.

The first is a minor point, that I won't be able to prove until Rev.

"Also, the end of the movie hints that Neo might possibly understand how to manipulate the laws of physics in the real world as well as in the Matrix."

I don't agree with this, because my prediction is that the "Real World" they are showing you is another Matrix. It will be interesting to me to see how many layers they show in Rev. I am actually hoping they only keep it at a hint and never show what is actually happening with humanity or even if humans really live at all.

[Etasi]

I think that the problem you're having with some of the CG in the Matrix results from their use of super slow motion shots that focus on entirely CG characters. Neo doesn't look real because you have enough time to look at every ripple (or lack thereof) of his coat, every angle of his face as the light plays over it, etc. The same is not true of the Agent Smiths in that scene because none of them are sole focus of any slow motion shots.

I think it's more fair to compare the CG characters in TTT to CG characters in the Matrix that are the subject of normal speed shots rather than slow motion shots, and those that are not moving in some superhuman way. TTT didn't push the limits of CG the way Reloaded did, and as such it isn't really fair to say that their CG was better, for I'm sure that if they had been responsible for producing shots such as those that make up the bulk of the fight scenes in Reloaded, they would not have been able to produce results of a similar quality to those we saw in Reloaded. I say this because of that article I read in Wired (really need to find that!) which discussed the totally new technology used to create Reloaded and Revolutions.

As for the idea of having more than one Matrix, that was actually what I thought at first too. However, upon further consideration, I don't think that having a second Matrix really makes sense in terms of what the Wachowski brothers are trying to do with the Matrix series. Their primary emphasis is on the role of choice and how having choice, or not having it, affects our lives. They employ questions about the nature of reality in order to make this point, but that's not the aspect of the story that they most wish us to focus on. Therefore, it doesn't seem to make sense to have a Matrix within a Matrix, at least not from the perspective of the question about choice. Whether or not there is a second Matrix is irrelevant to that question, for while such a situation would affect the specific choices made by the characters, it would not add in any way to our understanding of choice and fate.

Neo's ability to affect the machines in the real world is, in my opinion, more likely to be a result of one of two things: his interchanging of code with Agent Smith, or his increased understanding of the laws of physics that results from his adventures within the Matrix.

The reason he does not react to the Architect the way the machines expect him to (as they show in those little TV screens behind him), ie very emotionally, is because now he's part machine, part Agent Smith. He doesn't feel the connection with all humans that his predecessors did. Rather, his connection to Trinity is the most human part of him that still remains. Therefore his choice to save her is the most logical one to his part-machine brain. This link he shares with machines may be the reason he can sense the squidies in the real world and the reason he can stop them the way he stops bullets in the Matrix.

However, it's also possible that his powers in the Matrix have caused him to understand exactly how one can bend the laws of physics. As with any computer program, the Matrix is built on certain rules. Everything must be governed by one rule or another. The rules that govern movement in the Matrix are the same laws of physics that are at work in the real world (they have to be, in order to make it believeable to its inhabitants), and as such, what Neo does with the laws of physics in the Matrix, he may be able to do with the laws of physics in the real world.

I think the first explanation is the more likely of the two, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

I can't take credit for some of these ideas (need to find the article in question and link it too), but I do think they're really interesting and worth sharing. Also, discussions like this really make me wonder wtf movie the people who say "there was no plot!" were watching.

[Akaran_D]

I don't agree with this, because my prediction is that the "Real World" they are showing you is another Matrix

The way that the Architect talked, I that's that is a HUGE possibility. Just the way he reered to Zion and Neo as an "anomoly". Infact, I seriously would put money on that fact.. if Zion has been totally wiped out, then.. whelp./... humans are f'd.

[Aaeamdar]

Also, discussions like this really make me wonder wtf movie the people who say "there was no plot!" were watching.


No kidding. This whole series is rich in stories. My friends and I have and continue to discuss all ranges of topics steming from implications in this movie.

There is a third possibility - regardless of which of us is correct about a Matrix in a Matrix - regarding Neo's abilities in the "Real World." You never actually affirmatively see him stop the sentinals. You just know he senses them. For all we know, that ship that rescues them hit its EMP around the same time Neo engaged them and that's what did them in.

Since I have someone to chat with here, I'll post more tonight on some of my thoughts on the film.

[Aaeamdar]

Why it is a Matrix in a Matrix.

Here are my two external reasons (e.g. reasons supported by reason, but not by references to the story).

1. This is good planning. Redundencies simply make good sense. If the computer's rely on people as much as they claim they do (My own theory is that they do rely on people, but not as a source of energy, but rather as a source of creativity) and if they built a system with inherent systemic flaws that can cause that system's colapse - it makes no sense to have all eggs in one basket, so to speak. There should be failsafes (Nested Matricies) and Redundencies (more than one Matrix opperating independently of each other).

2. The given reason in for the computer's need of humanity is not reasonable. Any mammal would suffice as a source of matter to energy conversion, though frankly, if there is no Sun, the conversion rate is not likely to be sufficiently efficient. So there must be some other reason the Computer's need mankind enslaved. My own theory is that they keep vast populations of man enslaved to provide themselves with creativity so that they can continue to evolve their own society. The Matrix within a Matrix serves as a failsafe to prevent any human from learning their true purpose.

Here are my internal reasons.

3. Agent Smith possessed the body of someone in the "Real World." That is not something that can be easily explained unless the person he possessed in the Real World is also, at least in part, a computer program. Of course, you can always use some Star Trek like psuedo-science to provide an explanation, but absent some technobable, you are left with either Matrix in a Matrix or some sort of religious/magic explanation that Agent Smith has a "soul" that is compatible with humanity.

4. Neo begins to show some "magic" abilities in the "Real World." You have your explanations above, mine is that his connection to the computers, in particular to Agent Smith, is making him realize, if only on a subconscious level, that the "Real World" is another Matrix in which he can opperate more freely.

5. They have destroyed Xion 6 times. Well, that could just be a lie, but the more reasonable explanation for why no one ever notices that Xion is an ancient destroyed city is that the computer's simply "reset" it for every new generation. To do that, of course, would require the "Real World" to be a Matrix.

6. No hard proof yet, but somewhat internal. I believe Neo is nothing other than a computer program, like the Agents. If that is correct, Neo cannot exists outside a Matrix, thus the "Real World" must also be a Matrix.

[Dregor Thule]

Just got back from seeing it, and all I can say is... DAMN!

I went in expecting to be blown away, and that's how I still feel. I swear that I didn't blink at all during some of the sequences. We're talking 10+ minutes here! I was just wide-eyed, jaw-opened, suspension-of-disbeliefed in love with the damned thing. The Neo vs Smith vs Smith vs Smith vs... you get the idea... sequence was just... DAMN!

As for those who didn't like it, you're entitled to that opinion. I don't understand it, I don't agree with it, I can't fathom why why why WHY, but you're entitled to it. The story was fairly consistent with the first one, different of course on levels by necessity; it's no longer a new concept, we know what's going on now (more or less), so it's not so much about radical ideas, and more about telling the story. The story for Reloaded went nowhere? It filled the role of story progressor perfectly as trilogies should I think.

And, I'm just gonna say this here, and I may possibly be the only human being alive that will say this: I think Keanu Reeves was perfectly cast for this part. I think he "acts" just fine for it. And if you think he's a horrible actor, you should try and watch him talk without a script... you'll gain a new appreciation for his acting. You'll believe!

[Etasi]

I really thought Keanu Reeves was a lot better in the Reloaded than in the first movie. He seems really... goofy in the first one, though he does do just fine in the part. Plus he has the coolest jacket ever!

[Echols]

Gonna start this off by saying Etasi and I live together. We've been discussing the matrix since we got back from it on wednesday night, and we've been discussing the points you've made in your posts, Aaeamdar, they're very interesting.

That being said, I'm going to do a quick run down of a few things I don't agree with in your latest post.

1. This is good planning. Redundencies simply make good sense. If the computer's rely on people as much as they claim they do (My own theory is that they do rely on people, but not as a source of energy, but rather as a source of creativity) and if they built a system with inherent systemic flaws that can cause that system's colapse - it makes no sense to have all eggs in one basket, so to speak. There should be failsafes (Nested Matricies) and Redundencies (more than one Matrix opperating independently of each other).

You're absolutely right about the robots creating redundencies and failsafes, that is a very logical thing to do. However, if a human's mind was incapable of accepting a world that was modeled 100% accurately after the real world, then chances are it would continue to try "waking up" from any other world you presented it with. It might take time for the mind to figure out that the next world it entered into was also virtual, but it would happen eventually, and it would continue happening until the only way to deal with it would be to eject the human from the virtual world entirely and kill it. Therefore it wouldn't make much sense to have failsafe matrices as the humans would almost always eventually have to be destroyed. You might as well get rid of them as soon as you find out they're going to be a problem. Also, if someone's mind was trying to physically "wake up", I'm not sure how easy it would be to re-route it into another dream-like state.

2. The given reason in for the computer's need of humanity is not reasonable. Any mammal would suffice as a source of matter to energy conversion, though frankly, if there is no Sun, the conversion rate is not likely to be sufficiently efficient. So there must be some other reason the Computer's need mankind enslaved. My own theory is that they keep vast populations of man enslaved to provide themselves with creativity so that they can continue to evolve their own society. The Matrix within a Matrix serves as a failsafe to prevent any human from learning their true purpose.

I think the easiest explanation is that humans were the most abundant species available on the planet at the time. If you look at current trends today, we're killing off species of animals faster than ever. In the first matrix, morpheus says they think it's close to the year 2199. I'm sure many species have been brought to the brink of extinction by that point, especially after the major war they've been through. Also, humans, in ideal circumstances, which I'm sure the robots can provide, can live to be 100-110 years old, thereby providing a very long lasting source of energy. Not many other species are as large as humans and live as long as humans do.

5. They have destroyed Xion 6 times. Well, that could just be a lie, but the more reasonable explanation for why no one ever notices that Xion is an ancient destroyed city is that the computer's simply "reset" it for every new generation. To do that, of course, would require the "Real World" to be a Matrix.

"Destroy" doesn't have to mean wiped out entirely, they could just kill off all the humans. But more importantly, when The One chooses his 23 women and 16 men to start all over again, the robots could help them rebuild the city, or rebuild it for them.

Phew! Having said all that, the arguments that point towards it being a matrix within a matrix are still very convincing, and I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong. I really can't wait to find out in the third movie. Six months is WAY too freaking long.

[Akaran_D]

The reason I bought Smith hacking into that one guy's head is this - remember when Morpheous was getting "hacked" in the origional? I have a feeling somthing similiar happened here.. he didn't implant his "soul" into him, he just re-programed his mind.

Is a thought.

[Aaeamdar]

Echols,
That's not the level of failsafe I have in mind. I agree that any one human being is probably not that precious a rescorce as to justify a second Matirx for those few that choose not to live within the first. I am talking about failsafe's to account for when something goes wrong with "The One." Having at least one more layer (and preferably multiple independant Matricies as well) would buy them the time to adjust/rebuild anew in the case that a cataclismic failure with "The One" caused "the complete destruction of mankind on the plaent" as The Archetect described. Since "The One" (whether program or human) represents "the culmination of remainders of all anomolies in the Matrix" and does himself/itself have the ability to choose, it has to be the case that at some point, some "The One" will choose differently than what is required and all of humanity will be destroyed. Allowing that in a system with no redundancy or failsafe means that the computers built a system that they knew would inevitably lead to their own destruction.

Your point about Xion dovetails with mine. It is true that they do not have to destroy it completely (if it is real), and that is the problem. Without complete destruction and without a complete rebuilding and repair of all that happened in the course of that destruction, clues will be left. Those clues will inexorably lead to the humans eventually figuring out what was happening.

[Zamtuk]

Saw it, and there is really nothing I can say that Etasi hasn't overly explained.

Great movie, however I missed the preview.

[Xouqoa]

I loved the film as well, and enjoyed reading the takes of Vowels and Etasi/Echols on what they think is the real reality. =) I think the third movie will have many suprises for all!

[murr]

I've seen it twice since Thursday, and after much discussion with friends and reading of FoH board (especially Blazar's post), I think there's another possibility. The Oracle says that the only way to reach freedom is "together." The Councilman laments the interdependence of humanity and machinery, each's control of the other.

Perhaps the Matrix is an experiment, Neo the subject. The six generations of "The One" are a race of superhumans, a combination of human and program (The Architect aka Colonel Sanders tells Neo to save humanity he must enter the Source and have his "code" disseminated). Perhaps the whole Zion scenario is simply a training grounds to produce the "human" who can solve the problem of interdependence and free machines and humanity (or at least humanity from machinery -- we don't know if the machines are truly malicious towards the human race, especially when they are plenty of other power sources, such as nuclear, etc.. they could be being benefactors to a race otherwise doomed). Neo's new "abilities" in the real world could reflect the culmination of such an experiment, a way for humanity to finally become self-reliant once more.

yay for overthinking stuff..hahha

[Etasi]

I think it's more likely that Neo is the first version of the One that combines both humans and machines, hence his ability to do things even the machines thought were impossible for the One, and also his decision at the Source, where he takes the path that no previous One had dared.

I was thinking last night that perhaps Neo and Agent Smith represent opposing paradigms about the ideal relationship between man and machine. Neo is mostly human, but his machine parts allow him to do things that he could never have otherwise. Smith, on the other hand, is a machine with only the worst human aspects, and represents what will happen if humans allow machines to do all of their thinking and living for them (especially as he takes over every person in the Matrix, and takes away their brains' only outlet for self expression and free thought). The scene in the preview for Revolutions that shows Neo and Smith having a showdown, while watched by millions of Smiths (perhaps every single other person in the Matrix) may be the final battle between these two opposing paradigms, a battle in which Neo (and as such, the belief that man is made best by using technology but not becoming entirely dependant upon it) must surely be the victor.

The speech that the previous One (the leader of Zion's council) gives Neo in the engineering room certainly seems to suggest that the point isn't to destroy all technology, but rather to embrace and limit it. I always thought it was somewhat ironic that an anti-technology movie (Matrix 1) so embraced technology in its production, but Reloaded makes the point far more clear to me: only with proper use of technology can man truly be "free." This is what I think the Oracle means when she says that we can only find freedom together.

Anyhow, I think maybe I should stop posting on this thread, since I've discussed all of this overly much already. Can you tell that I really liked this movie?!

[Fairweather Pure]

Wait a minute...

Neo is the Kwisatz Haderach?!?

[kyoukan]

i liked it when that one guy kicked the other guy in the face with his foot!!1

[noel]

I saw it yesterday. Far more cerebral than kinetic. Extremely well done.

I too am shocked people are claiming 'lack of plot'. I think it's more likely 'lack of understanding' for reasons already well documented in this thread.

Can't wait for November, the preview at the end looked spectacular.

[Mak]

I'm very inclined to agree with Aaeamdar in that the "real world" is nothing more than a second Matrix. When the Architect was talking about the necessity of choice and the resulting statistical anomalies that would reject the Matrix, it occurred to me that the best way to still maintain control was to create a second world for those anomalies to 'discover'. This was more or less confirmed, in my mind, when Neo stopped the Sentinals.

As to the special effects, yeah, they were great, woohoo. Honestly, that Tea Room fight seemed more like Riverdance than a fight.

[Trek]

I enjoyed the movie, wasnt the greatest thing ive ever seen nor did I expect it to be. Some of the CG was kinda poor but over all it was quite an undertaking that was pulled off ok IMO. I look forward to the next flick to see which, if any, of the theories are correct.

[Coatlicue [KoE]]

I loved it!

The twins were freaky-ass.. but freaking cool. Keanu was hot. The sex scene was hot. The tribal stuff was a bit much, but was cool nonetheless. The music was bitchin.

'nuff said!

[Kylere]

Scott Kurtz? PVPonline? Hmm I will take that as a compliment, most of the time he is Teh Funny

[Fallanthas]

Not lack of plot, lack of closure.


What's up with Smith? We know he is more powerful and operating with a degree of freedom now, and that's it.

What's up with the Frenchman? He just walks away?

What's up with Architect? Neo made a choice, and not one thing was done or changed as a repercussion.

What's up with the attack on Zion? An attack was pending in minute one of the film, and it's still pending when the credits roll.


There are going to be three layers of reality presented, at least. The average moviegoer is going to choke trying to keep up with what's going on. Let's hope the effects can carry the series.

[noel]

Not lack of plot, lack of closure.

You essentially watched the first 2ish hours of a 4ish hour movie. Since for a variety of reasons, 4 hour movies won't fly, you need to be patient and wait until November.

You sound like the people who were pissed off at the end of Fellowship of the Ring because they didn't resolve things. Cry more newb?

[Voronwë]

overall i thought it was pretty cool. i thought some of the exposition was overblown, which effected the pace. i didnt necessarily expect the movie to be anything beyond a very cool action movie, and as such i wasnt dissappointed, because it is a very cool action movie.

i think in general, the film would have been a little better if they trimmed some of the fat and made it about 15-20 minutes shorter, but no big deal. I do not think the material is so dense that to do so would make it difficult to follow.

the target demo for the movie (16-35 yr olds?) can hang with it. our parents would be confused for sure, but as long as whats her face wears that black leather outfit who really cares...

[Fallanthas]

Thanks Aranuil, that was my point.


How many are going to accept a four hour film with a six month pause in the middle?

I will be there on opening night for M3, no question. Will the theatre be packed again?

[noel]

Thanks Aranuil, that was my point.


How many are going to accept a four hour film with a six month pause in the middle?

I will be there on opening night for M3, no question. Will the theatre be packed again?

*raises hand* Myself, and all of my friends will. Of course, we would have happily sat through all 4+ hours in one sitting.

I am certain the theater will be packed again.

[Dregor Thule]

Seems to me LotR is doing just fine using the same concept. I'll be there, for sure.

[Pherr the Dorf]

Great effect, cool storyline, reeves can NOT act his way out of a wet paper bag... he keeps it from being an epic movie with his total lack of acting ability.

[noel]

Seems to me LotR is doing just fine using the same concept. I'll be there, for sure.

No doubt.

I don't really understand what the issue is. Do people need to see the Death Star blow up at the end of every movie?