Gay Marriages

[miir]

I am unaware of any special tax breaks you get just for being married. I would arge that, if anything, you get shafted even more. Now, once you start throwing kids into the equation, tax breaks can get signifficant.

I was under that impression as well.
I know a number of incentives kick in once you start popping out the kids, but I have never heard of any programs that give tax breaks to couple just because they are married.

Kyoukan sounded so sure of herself, that's why I asked her to provide some examples.

Of course I could be wrong, but I did a quick search myself I couldn't find anything.

[Silvarel Mistmoon]

I think if new couples treated Marriage like a legal contract we'd have less marriages and less divorces.

I hear too many acting like it is a legal contract if they get married and they are the ones that get divorced usually early in the marriage. Marriage has to do with giving and receiving and too many people try to change the other and if they don't get what they want they walk out.

Thought I would throw this in on the adoption of children, a co worker sent off for information on adoption here in the Birmingham area, we couldnt believe it when we read the dollar amounts listed............
(Now this was the paper work fee.

African American children $60
White children $600

My first thought was "OMG they priced them by race! That is just sick!"
So I called because I was pissed. (no one else in the salon seemed to care for them to explain themselves they just accepted it as the way it is.)

I called and asked why they were charging less for Black couples to adopt then Whites and was told there are not as many white children out there to adopt, they are harder to find but there are a lot of black children to adopt and are easier to find.

This is where I have a problem with the anti abortion people, (not promoting abortion, its a personal decision for a woman to make) but I have always said if they were to ever get it outlawed (which I don't think will happen) WHO will take care of all the children? Not these people on the picket line that is for sure. I have also said that its to make money off of the children born to parents that don't want them.
Its against the law to sell your own child when its born ( I feel this is just) BUT its not against the law for a adoption company to make money off of the sale of children. That to me is just plain and simply wrong.

Sorry to get off topic.

[Fairweather Pure]

My parents tried to adopt a black baby but would've had to take all these racial sensetivity courses and would've been followed up on by the adoption agency to make sure they were giving the child an equal exposure to African-American culture. No shit.

I would contend that one of the reasons there are so many black babies for adoption is because of the self-inflicted barriers that are erected by adoption agencies to make everything PC.

Instead, my parents adopted a girl form China, another girl from Russia, and finally, a boy here in the States. The prices are listed from cheapest to the most expensive. The white male from America was 6 times more expensive than the girl from China. However, my parents recieved a discount when my little brother was born and had throat problems. Once again, no shit.

The entire adoption process is a goddamn joke here in the States.

[Voronwë]

well fair, taht PC bullshit is part of the problem, but you cant seriously suggest that it is the major factor.

you know full well that the vast majority of white families looking to adopt, ESPECIALLY in the South are never going to adopt a black baby. Ever. Sure there are more and more families taht are willing to adopt a child taht is ethnically different than themselves.

I'm sure in many cases it isnt even racially motivated. I can imagine that adopting a baby of differing ethnicity than the parents can be uncomfortable for many because it makes them publically confront their infertility (or whatever issue). In the end it may not be something that is hard for them to bear, but the initial perceived stigma may be enough to keep them from finding out.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Voron....I understand the difference between the state and religion. If you do not think that laws are not derived from religion, then you are crazy. Yeah, it is tough to legislate morality, but it does happen. Give me one good reason why gay marriage should be legal, while polygamy is illegal. Why can a man not love 2 women at once?

Miir, I would not label myself a "holy roller", but I do have strong beliefs and am not afraid to let people know.

Homophobia? No, I do not fear gay people in the least. I have worked with more gay people than most of you have probably met in your lifetime. I would not say that I have become great friends with any of them, as our lifestyles just did not have a whole lot in common. Not one of them would ever say I treated them with disrespect or hostility.

Won't even respond to the ridiculous diatribe by Fesuni. You brought it up...don't expect us all to pipe up (no pun intended) and say how great we think gay marriage is. Most of the people who agree with me won't bother to post because people will label them a homophobic gay basher.

[Wulfran]

I think this whole issue is one of rampant stupidity.

On one hand, you have those who are rampantly homophobic, protesting that it is an affront against Man, God and Nature.

On the other, you have a bunch of beligerant assholes trying to gain public approval for actions many of us find distasteful.

With regards to things like insurance policies, etc. Every time I have ever done the paperwork on them, I NAME A BENEFICIARY. The insurance company does not.

With regards to a will, I NAME who will inherit what, with the only requirement, by Canadian Law, being that I must attempt to provide for any dependants (i.e. if I was divorced with children, I cannot shut out minor children that I was supporting prior to my demise. I must attempt to suuport them).

In the US, I appreciate that you do have to provide for your own health care, but 2 same sex adults should a) either each have careers(and benefits for themselves), or b) make enough off of one salary that paying for the health insurance shouldn't be an issue (if not then partner 2 needs to get off his/her ass and get a fucking job).

Last time I looked at my tax forms (2 weeks ago), there is a category which allows a write off for spouse or other adult dependants. I am not sure if a common law partner of any type would apply here or not, but unless there are extreme and unusual circumstances, BOTH partners are better off filing seperate returns. My parents have been doing this for 20+ years.

Marriage in the traditional sense, IS a religious ceremony. By demanding the "legalization" of gay marriage, homosexuals are (in some cases) trying to force their morals on a church. Who the fuck gives them the right? If they don't like the morals/views/values of a specific church, then they need to find one that aligns with theirs.

The other thing I hate about this, is that it is coming from people who say "stay the fuck out of my bedroom! What I do there is my business". If you don't want people to criticize/pass judgement on what you do in your bedroom, then don't flaunt it where they have the opportunity to do so.

[Voronwë]

i did a quick search and here were some of the points:

joint insurance policies for home, auto and health
parenting and adoption rights
foster care
hospital visitation
inheritance
benefits including annuities, Social Security, and Medicare

[miir]

Homophobia? No, I do not fear gay people in the least. I have worked with more gay people than most of you have probably met in your lifetime. I would not say that I have become great friends with any of them, as our lifestyles just did not have a whole lot in common.

You have no idea how fucking hard I am laughing after reading that.
Do you believe even half of this horseshit you're typing out?

How does being employed by the same boss as a homosexual reaffirm your denial of homophobia?

Not one of them would ever say I treated them with disrespect or hostility.

That's sorta like a southerner saying : I don't beat up niggers so I aint racist.




Pretty sad Kilmoll, I was starting to think you were an OK guy who just liked to argue... but your attitudes and views are so archaic and close minded I can feel nothing but pity for you. The saddest part of it is that you don't even realise it.

[Kguku]

Marriage in the traditional sense, IS a religious ceremony. By demanding the "legalization" of gay marriage, homosexuals are (in some cases) trying to force their morals on a church. Who the fuck gives them the right? If they don't like the morals/views/values of a specific church, then they need to find one that aligns with theirs.

If you could only be married by the church, then you would have a valid point here. However the government has found it fit to allow people to be married outside of the church and will perform the ceremony in a court of law etc. Not all people wish to be a part of a religion, and should not be punished because they wish to enter in to a life long contract with their significant other.

So if the government is performing said marriages, then people have the right to request a legalization of same sex marriages, and this DOES NOT push their morals on a religion. Remember there is to remain a seperation of church and state.

[masteen]

whether or not this practice really does much to control the specific diseases and maintain the genetic viability of the population of course is something i dont know the answer to =)

Teh Shadow Gov't is genetically tagging and tracking all y'all breeders. It's true, I saw it on teh X-Files!!!

[miir]

Marriage in the traditional sense, IS a religious ceremony. By demanding the "legalization" of gay marriage, homosexuals are (in some cases) trying to force their morals on a church. Who the fuck gives them the right? If they don't like the morals/views/values of a specific church, then they need to find one that aligns with theirs.

This issue is not about the religious ceremony of marriage, it's the legality of it. There are scads of curches that will marry a same sex couple.

I know there are certain groups trying to get the catholic church to recognize same sex marriages but that's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE that I'm sure most of us couldn't care less about.
The only people bringing the church into this are the backwards thinking homophobes.

[Fairweather Pure]

i did a quick search and here were some of the points:

joint insurance policies for home, auto and health
parenting and adoption rights
foster care
hospital visitation
inheritance
benefits including annuities, Social Security, and Medicare

Are all those benefits determined by the government? I'm really not sure. Remember when Disney decided to treat gays the same as a traditional couple in terms of benefits and what-not? I assumed that was a corporate decision and had nothing to do with the government at all, but it certianly allowed all benefits to be shared amongst homosexual partners/marriages. I'm not sure where the line is drawn, but I think many of those can be covered under private circumstances.

well fair, taht PC bullshit is part of the problem, but you cant seriously suggest that it is the major factor.

No, and I never meant to assert that it was a major factor. However, it is most definately a contributing factor.

[miir]

i did a quick search and here were some of the points:

joint insurance policies for home, auto and health
parenting and adoption rights
foster care
hospital visitation
inheritance
benefits including annuities, Social Security, and Medicare

And how many of those points offer a childless, same sex couple noticeable financial advantages and tax cuts?

[Voronwë]

Miir-

they all offer hetero-no-kid couples the same opportunity for benefits as well. if people make choices that result in them not receiving certain tax breaks (ie not having children) then that is their choice. The tax break for a child hardly outweighs the massive cost to raise one properly. i dont see childless straight couples as being somehow shafted in all of this. Unless they feel like they are going to be lumped in with the queers, and don't want any of that.

i think the point is that gays want the same opportunity to enjoy benefits that straight people can.

it is up to society to determine if they will let them or not.

[Wulfran]

joint insurance policies for home, auto and health

Is this government controlled in the US? If not then the issue is with the insurance companies and not in forcing the government to "legalize" something. And to be honest I am little confused that an insurance company would refuse joint policies, esp if the parties are at the same address, as in a basic sense it is the same as insuring a corporation.

parenting and adoption rights

My opinion may raise the hackles of some on this issue, but a gay couple is not a traditional family and as such should be subject to the same screening and regulations as single people attempting to adopt. I'm not going to pretend that a hetero-sexual couple is always fit to adopt/raise a child either, but the child isn't going to face the additional peer stigmas that exist by not having a Mommy and Daddy. I believe in these issues the rights and welfare of the Child come before the rights of those willing to adopt.

foster care

See parenting and adoption rights.

hospital visitation

I am not sure what the issue is here, unless it revolves around the "family only" cases, in which case there could be some policy ammendments made to include partners.

inheritance

Make a fucking will. In Canada a court will not overturn a will unless it neglects a legal obligation (i.e. you fail to provide for a dependant). I would be surprised if it is that much different in the US...

benefits including annuities, Social Security, and Medicare

In any retirement savings plans/annuities/etc that I have participated/invested in I specify an inheritor. If that option is not available to me, I don't invest. I'm not sure how Social Security works iin the US but is it not based on each person's contributions/income? And Medicare, although it is different in the US as well, is applied to people on an individual adult basis up here, so I don't really see an issue unless there are minor children, in which case they would fall under one parent's or the other's account.

Seriously, this seems more about political grandstanding and wasting money on frivolous court actions than real issues. I appreciate the point about marriages being a government endorsed contract and think this should be available to whomever desires it, but again, in Canada, if you live together more than I think its 6 months you are eligible to at least claim "common-law" status, which amounts to almost the same thing.

I guess this goes more by personal philosophy: If you don't fit the "system" you adapt to capitialize on it, the way(s) you need. If people are too lazy to do so, why should everyone else bear the burden for the costs involved? To me this is the real issue: we will never build perfect "systems" for dealing with all the social and economic issues, but do we really have to rebuild over every minor issue?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

You have no idea how fucking hard I am laughing after reading that.
Do you believe even half of this horseshit you're typing out?

How does being employed by the same boss as a homosexual reaffirm your denial of homophobia?

That's sorta like a southerner saying : I don't beat up niggers so I aint racist.

What is sad is that you equate someone not being gung ho about gay marriage as being a hatemonger. Do you really believe that everyone who does not believe as you do also hates you? You are trying your damndest to twist things into showing me as some frothing at the mouth hate crime waiting to happen. I could substitute the word "black" for the word "gay" in the last post easily. Are you going to call me a racist now?

Could you please explain to me how it is that because I don't agree with gay marriage that I hate all gay people? I am waiting to really figure this one out. I don't agree with Democrats either, does this mean I have to hate all of them? You must really be desperate for a verbal fight to push this angle hero.

[miir]

What is sad is that you equate someone not being gung ho about gay marriage as being a hatemonger

Sorry man, what do you expect when you are spewing out (almost ver batim) the same crap that your forefathers did when women were fighting to get the vote and when blacks were fighting for their rights?



Kilmoll, you are a typical homophobe.

You have the typical catholic/christian attitudes towards homosexuals.
You use the text book justifications 'prove' that you are not a homophobe.





Why don't you provide one decent reason why you think the government should not allow same sex marriages. Try not to include anything rgearding sexual behaviour or references to the bible.

[Cartalas]

/backpedal

I really dont see him backpedaling as much as I see you kinda jumped to conclusions a little too quickly. So the guy is against Gay marriages so what it does not mean anything Im sure he really does not care. My religious beliefs say I should be against gay marriages but am I? I really dont know and to be honest dont care it does not effect me. Now if every same sex marriage got a special tax break well then hell yes I would bitch not because of the marriage but because of the circumstance.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

You are just wrong Miir. I can only state so many times that I do not hate gay people. I may not agree with their lifestyle and it is not for me, but they can go and do as they want. What I do not agree with at all is them getting the same financial incentives as straight couples whose job it is to produce offspring. Whether or not those couples can and do produce offspring is not relevant.

Since you are in this mode of providing evidence and proof of everything, why don't you show me some samplings of species in nature that pair up exclusively in same sex couples?

[kyoukan]

Why don't you give us examples of all these tax breaks and special savings plans that are available to childless married couples?

You can transfer money to and from your spouse without paying capital gains tax on it up to a certain amount (that's fairly high). You can leave your wealth to your spouse without paying estate tax. I'm not an accountant or a tax attorney but I know there is more you can write off with your spouse. Tax law is fucked up though so you should always have a professional do your income tax.

Ask your bank or investment firm about special plans for married couples. One of my fiance's closest friends is an investment manager and he is setting us up with a whole bunch of shit after we get married. I've heard him talking about it but I don't know a whole bunch about it because I'm not really that interested in money.

Most insurance policies also cover your spouse (and children) and don't cost 2x as much, so you save money there.

There are a lot of advantages to being married. These advantages are given to married couples not out of a sense of altruism but because married couples produce children and grow families.

[kyoukan]

Since you are in this mode of providing evidence and proof of everything, why don't you show me some samplings of species in nature that pair up exclusively in same sex couples?

The speckle-backed gayfish.

[Voronwë]

name me a species that is eligible for Social Security benefits besides humans, and i'll take a photograph myself of that species having a giant homogay orgy.

in otherwords, wtf are you talking about Kilmoll?

[miir]

I'd also like to see a species of animal that partakes in heterosexual recreational sex.

[kyoukan]

I'd also like to see a species of animal that partakes in heterosexual recreational sex.

actually dolphins do. dolphins are the only other animal that we know of that have recreational sex.

[miir]

I'd also like to see a species of animal that partakes in heterosexual recreational sex.

actually dolphins do. dolphins are the only other animal that we know of that have recreational sex.

Foreplay != sex

I should have worded it better by saying : non-procreational intercourse

[Voronwë]

bonobo chimpanzees also have sexual intercourse with members of the same sex, adults with juveniles, tons of partners, etc.

[kyoukan]

same difference. I'm not going to argue semantics about it.

[Cartalas]

OMG did this thread take a big fucking turn or what.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I don't know about Social Security benefits, but I do know that many people have willed inheritance to their pets, which are in turn taxed for said inheritance. Therefore the animals are U.S. taxpayers and are paying taxes to Social Security. The animals would not qualify to actually receive Social Security benefits until they reached the age of 65, therefore they are dead before anyone could ever come up with the idea to file for benefits.

[Voronwë]

well my buddy's dog humped my leg so hes definitely queer.

take that!

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I guess he won't be getting married then (the dog that is....unless he just likes having sex with humans, in which case he may be able to marry your buddy at some point in the future)

[Boogahz]

Since you are in this mode of providing evidence and proof of everything, why don't you show me some samplings of species in nature that pair up exclusively in same sex couples?

So if this passes, you are afraid that you will have to have a same sex partner too? The one word that I think kills whatever you wanted to get is "exclusively." The issue is not what you get or don't get. The issue is what these people already can't get. People point to insurance. That is up to the employer/insurance company. I know that the company I work for allows for same-sex partners. I also know that not all do. The issue also is not whether or not they can get married. They CAN get married now, and in a church. It's called a Holy Union. BUT, most states don't recognize that relationship or bond at all. That is where the problem lies. If you wanted to change your name to match your partner's last name...good luck and I hope you have an understanding official willing to allow it. Under the law, that option is not there for you.

[Fairweather Pure]

Boogahz, you seem to know more about gay rights than is hetrosexually possible. I'm outing you!

[miir]

Boogahz, you seem to know more about gay rights than is hetrosexually possible. I'm outing you!

Kilmoll would probably have a higher chance of being homosexual than Booghaz.... because he's worked with more gay people than most of us have met.... and that gay stuff is comunicable, right?

[Xyphir]

I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

[Boogahz]

Kinda hard to "out" a straight person. Both of my parents are gay, so I guess I have a different outlook on life and the things that are involved in it. The church I go to is also about 80% homosexual. It's also one of the most understanding (in ways other than just sexuality) that I have ever been to.

[Fredonia Coldheart]

inheritance

Make a fucking will. In Canada a court will not overturn a will unless it neglects a legal obligation (i.e. you fail to provide for a dependant). I would be surprised if it is that much different in the US...

There is a lot more involved than making a will. Without even going into the inheritance taxes, there is also the hassle of finalizing the estate.

When my father died his name was just taken off all the accounts, legal documents, etc. since my mother was still alive and they were married.

We are still trying to finalize my father-in-law's will two years after he passed away. And no one has contested the will. The laws (at least where my father-in-law lived) are very specific on what must happen before land can be passed down.

Being married when one's partner dies offers a hassle free transition and not loosing a chunk of the value of the estate to taxes.

[Winnow]

bonobo chimpanzees also have sexual intercourse with members of the same sex, adults with juveniles, tons of partners, etc.

omg, bonobo. great EQ name!

[Dalmoth]

People seem to want to argue to try to change your position from what it is, its a natural fact of life. Understand that no argument I present will change a single one of your fundamental beliefs and no argument you present will change one of my fundamental beliefs. Every so often an argument presented to me can change a belief that I don't hold as a core belief. However, understand that if you want debate you should not be trading barbs. Calling someone a homophobe because they disagree with the premise of the discussion, or a racist because they live in the south, omits you from the debate, and adds you to the cacophony of spectators to the debate. What many here absolutely don't realize is that I can disagree with you but not be against you.

Wulfran I belive had the formation of thought that was needed. Is this question about "moral acceptance" in society, "legal status" in the country, or "econmic rights". I think you'll gain more support for "econmic rights" than the others simply due to businesses willing to cash in on more business. Gay/Lesbian partners have frankly been frowned on for, well millenium. Only within the last few decades can you even begin to see true tolerance and there are examples where that is false as well. Wanting total acceptance I understand, expecting it is another.

Same sex marriage is the current political grail for the gay community. Looking at divorce rates, most americans feel it is outdated, confining and not something to be taken seriously. Why spend your political capital on something that most people feel is no longer important anyway. Work for equal econmic rights and I think you'll find something with teeth in the argument.

Furthermore, I'm a religous person, you will never dictate to me that I can not include some aspect of relgion in my point of view, it is part of who I am. I'm also from the capital of the 50-60s hotspots for racial violence. Your judgemnts on how things are here from 1000 or more miles away also mean little to me. When I start making generalizations on the how Mid-Westerns hate vegatables they would laugh at me also.

Disagreeing with same sex marriage does not make me a homophobe, it means that marriage means something different to me than it does to others. It is not something that is bestowed upon us by government, marriage for as long as society has existed has been about the propgation and the rasing of children. After all, the concept of marriage predates the concept of government.

[miir]

Disagreeing with same sex marriage does not make me a homophobe, it means that marriage means something different to me than it does to others.

No it doesn't, but when your disagreement of same sex marriages is polluted with comments like:


"is still just aa morally wrong to engage in homosexual acts as it would be to engage in prostitution or any other deviant sexual act"

"If being gay is encouraged by society, then you are going to have problems down the road"

"It is a deviant sexual activity"

"I sure as fuck don't want it (taxes) going to support a marriage that is not natural"

"show me any religion that embraces homosexuality and considers it a normal act"



Those are homophobic comments.

[Dalmoth]

So knowing that I live in Alabama...

1) I disprove of our welfare system
2) I support the KKK's right to march
3) I like Charles Barkley's views on politics
4) I detest anything Jesse Jackson has to say on any topic
5) I'm against more taxes to fund public schools

To someone looking to call someone a racist, at least here these are all pretty much a checklist anyone needs.

Despite the facts

1) There are more white welfare recipents here than black
2) 1st Amendment does not say free speech if acceptable.
3) From my PoV he could be a real leader, not the uncle tom
4) Jesse Jackson == Yassar Arafat of the 80s (Lets talk about me)
5) Public schools here are bad, largely because we have the lowest property taxes in the country and like 60% of the state is owned by corporations with some tax credits on top of that. So no, I don't think that raising sales tax here is the proper solution to funding public schools.

The first and foremost thing required to be a racist, homophobe or what have you, is the ability and willingness to judge, andd ability and willing to act on said judgements.

[Xzion]

if someone is not gay, i dont see why the fuck they would give a shit if a gay couple got married, that would just proove that someone that disaprooved of that is a predjutice asshole, and that is exactlly what they are