Supporting our veterans

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 2, 2003, 4:31 pm

The following was written by Col Tim Hanifen USMC - Commanding Officer, MAG42 in the Atlanta Area - in response to a number of people who asked what they should know, say, or do, to understand and honor returning combat veterans.

Three Gifts You Can Give Returning Veterans That Will Last Them A Lifetime...

The combat phase of the campaign in Iraq is winding down and now the hardest job of all begins-winning the peace. Soon many of our fellow citizen-Soldiers, Airmen, Sailors, Marines and Coast Guardsman-both active and reserve will return home with their units or as individuals. All have served and participated in an extraordinary campaign of liberation that was fought in a manner that reflected not only the determination of the American people to do what was necessary but also reflective of our value to spare life whenever and wherever possible. As these veterans begin returning home and people are asking themselves what they can do to celebrate their return, honor their service and remember those that have fallen in the performance of their duty. After every war or major conflict, there are always concerns about the emotional state of returning veterans, their ability to readjust to peaceful pursuits and their reintegration into American society. People naturally ask themselves "what can we do or what should we do?" The purpose of this message is to offer that there are three very important gifts that we personally and collectively as a society, can give to these returning veterans. They are "understanding, affirmation and support".

With "understanding", I am not speaking of sympathy, empathy, consoling or emotional analysis. Rather, I offer that we, to the best of our ability, need to comprehend some of the combat truths learned and experienced by these returning servicemen and women. Their perspectives and their personal experiences will shape each of them and our society in large and small ways for years to come. Though we were not there, our comprehension and respect for their "truisms" will be part of the gift that will truly last them and us for a lifetime. The truth every combat veteran knows, regardless of conflict, is that war is about combat, combat is about fighting, fighting is about killing and killing is a traumatic personal experience for those who fight. Killing another person even in combat,
is difficult as it is fundamentally against our nature and the innate guiding moral compass within most human beings. The frequency of direct combat and the relative distance between combatants is also directly proportional to the level of combat stress experienced by the surviving veteran. Whether the serviceman or woman actually pulled the trigger, dropped a bomb or simply supported those who have, I've yet to meet any veteran who has fought and found their contribution to or the personal act of killing another human being particularly glorious. Necessary-Yes. Glorious or pleasurable-No. In combat, the veteran must
pyschologically distance themselves from the humanity of their opponent during the fight. The adversary becomes a target or an objective or any number of derogatory epithets that separates "them from us". Combat becomes merely business-a job that has to be done, part of your duty and killing-a necessary result. It's a team job that needs to be done quickly, efficiently, unemotionally and at the least cost in lives to your unit, to innocents and with the most damage inflicted in the least time to your adversaries. Then you and the team move forward again to the next danger area and fight. The only sure way home is by fighting through your opponents as quickly and efficiently as possible. Along the way you quietly hope or pray that your actions will: be successful; not cause
the loss of a comrade; the death of an innocent; or that you'll become one of the unlucky casualties yourself. You stay despite your fears because the team-your new family of brothers or sisters, truly needs you and you'd rather die than let them down. You live in the moment, slowly realize your own mortality and also your steadily rising desire to cling to and fight hard for every second of it. You keep your focus, your "game face" on and you don't allow yourself the luxury of "too much reflection" or a moment's "day dreaming" about home, loved ones, the future or your return. You privately fear that such a moment of inattention
may be your or worse, because of you, a comrade's last. So if I may caution, please don't walk up to a combat veteran and ask him or her if they "killed" anyone or attempt well meaning "pop" psychoanalysis. These often-made communication attempts are awkward and show a lack of understanding and comprehension of the veteran. They also reveal much about the person who attempts either one. Instead, please accept there is a deep contextual gap between you both because you were not there. This chasm is very difficult to bridge when veterans attempt to relate their personal war experiences. Actual combat veterans are the one's least
likely to answer the question or discuss the details of their experiences with relative strangers. Most likely they will ignore you and feel as though they were truly "pilgrims" in a strange land instead of honored and appreciated members of our Republic. So accept and don't press. One note of personal caution for your awareness- If a combat veteran does answer or appear to openly revel in the number of adversaries they've personally slain then they either haven't or they are likely part of society's 2% sociopaths. In either case, I would recommend you beware and quietly distance yourself. Their enthusiasm and behavior are not normal for a true combat veteran. But here is what you can do. Don't ignore them or the subject. Please feel free to express your "gladness at their safe return" and ask them "how it went or what was it like?" These questions are open-ended and show both your interest and concern. They also allow the veteran to share what they can or want. In most cases, the open door will enable them to share stories of close friends, teammates or some humorous moments of which they recall. Again, just ask, accept but don't dig or press.

The second gift is "affirmation". Whether you were personally in favor of the war or against it no longer matters at this point. As a Republic and a
people we debated, we decided and then we mustered the political and societal willpower to send these brave young men and women into combat in hopes of eventually creating a better peace for ourselves, for the Iraqi people and for an entire region of the world. More than anything else, the greatest gift you can personally give a returning veteran is a sincere handshake and words from you that "they did the right thing, they did what we asked them to do and that you are proud of them". We need to say these words often and the returning combat veteran truly needs these reassurances. Also please fly your flag and consider attending one or more public events with your families as a visible sign of your support and thanks. Nothing speaks louder to a returning veteran than the
physical presence of entire families. Those Americans attending these events give one of their most precious gifts-their personal time. Numbers matter. Personal and family presence silently speaks volumes of affirmation to those you wish to honor.

The third gift is "support". Immediately upon return there will be weeks of ceremonies and public praise applauding the achievements of the returning units and their veterans. But the pace of life in America is fast and it will necessarily move rapidly onward towards the next event. Here is where your support is most needed to sustain the returning veteran and you can make the most difference in their lives for years to come. Continue to fly your flag. If you are an employer, then simply do your best to hire a veteran who is leaving service or if he or she was a Guardsman or Reservist, welcome them back to a new job within the company. All reserve personnel know that the economic life of the company has continued in their absence. It has to do so in order for the company to survive and prosper. They also know it is likely their jobs have since been filled. Returning veterans are always unsure whether or not they will find or have employment upon return. As an employer, if you can't give them an equivalent job because of downsizing then extend them with your company for three to four months so they can properly job hunt. Please take a personal interest in them and their families and use your extensive list of personal and professional contacts to help them land a better job-even if it is with one of your competitors. The gratitude they will feel for you, your personal actions and your company is beyond words. For everyone else, the greatest gift you can give to continue support will take 10 seconds of your time. In the years to come, if ever your paths cross with one of the hundreds of thousands of veterans of this or any other conflict, then simply shake their hand and tell them "thanks" and that "they did a great job!" Your words show you understand, you affirm their service and you continue to support them. Teach your children to do the same by your strong example. Though veterans may not express it, every one of them will be grateful. If this message rings true with you, then let us each give these returning veterans these three gifts that will truly last them a lifetime.

Heather "I pledge allegiance to the flag...and my heart to the Marine who protects it." - Anon.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 2, 2003, 4:33 pm

I'm taking 3 of my buddies out to Red Lobster.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 2, 2003, 4:35 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm taking 3 of my buddies out to Red Lobster.

That's extremely cool

I assume you mean veteran buddies?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 2, 2003, 4:35 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:I'm taking 3 of my buddies out to Red Lobster.

Im gonna offer all the returning women soldiers free Sex for a year.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 4:39 pm

i'm gonna get shit-faced

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 2, 2003, 5:08 pm

Congratulate them on a successful illegal invasion for me. Ask them how much they enjoyed perforating fleeing civilians with their machines guns because they "might have been suicide bombers."

Acies · Post by **Acies** » May 2, 2003, 5:15 pm

Kyou, the soldiers in this war were not at fault, the administration was.

As for gift #1, whomever wrote this needs to check on Empathy, as it means a higher form of understanding (AKA relating to an extent of deep emotional understanding, or putting yourself in their shoes).

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » May 2, 2003, 5:19 pm

kyoukan wrote:Congratulate them on a successful illegal invasion for me. Ask them how much they enjoyed perforating fleeing civilians with their machines guns because they "might have been suicide bombers."

Ah c'mon Kyou...I'm about as liberal as they get and trust me, throughout the entire conflict I was in 100% support of our troops, and 100% against the administration that sent them there...if you are not in support of American troops then frankly you are hoping for their deaths...don't let liberalism (although I am a proud liberal) blind you and lull you into thinking radically

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 5:23 pm

I'll agree that Kyoukan's comments were rather extreme, but that's what she was going for, wanted to rile up the good ole boys. Besides, it's extremely naieve to think there weren't soldiers there that were *enthusiastic* to be doing "God's work". I'm sure there were others that had no opinion and were doing what they were told, and I'm sure there were a few who were against it even.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » May 2, 2003, 5:25 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:I'll agree that Kyoukan's comments were rather extreme, but that's what she was going for, wanted to rile up the good ole boys. Besides, it's extremely naieve to think there weren't soldiers there that were *enthusiastic* to be doing "God's work". I'm sure there were others that had no opinion and were doing what they were told, and I'm sure there were a few who were against it even.

Probably quite a few who did not agree.
But nonetheless, they swore an oath to serve, and to each who honored that oath I can do no less for them.
As to Kyou's comments, /shrug it was not a lie, but the answer to her question would likely be a "We did not enjoy it".

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 2, 2003, 5:31 pm

Shortly before the conquest began Bush made a speech directed mostly at the Iraqis on the front lines saying that if they were caught fighting to defend Saddam's regime that they would be either killed by "coalition" forces or tried for war crimes, and that they would be unable to use the excuse that there were "just following orders."

I believe making a statement like that reflects George W. Bush's opinion that military service is voluntary and optional (also look at how long he went AWOL for when he was in the service) and at any time you can just leave. Obviously he views the service of one's country as any other of the disposable jobs he's had in his sorry excuse for a career. Thus, any US soldier fighting in Iraq is there because they want to be there.

I don't support people who overthrow foreign governments so their masters can get wealthier from the country's natural resources. Sorry! I think veterans of this "war" (lol) should be treated with the shame that international bullies deserve.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 5:38 pm

I stand corrected!

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 2, 2003, 5:38 pm

Kyou, fucking seriously..people who join the military are forced to go to war if they are called apon regardless of there personall beliefs,if they want to remain in the military, sure there may have been some war crimes but there always is, war is fucking ugly no matter in what perspective it is shown in

cousin is in the special forces and he got lucky! he was down here training to become a sargeant or some shit and just got promoted and finished like 4 days ago, so he was deployed to iraq for a good 6 days i think it is

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 2, 2003, 6:44 pm

All 3 of my friends just wanted to get the fuck out of there. Only one was in a semi combat role. The other 2 were ground crew for A-10s.

I'm glad they're on the way back. I can't wait to hear some first hand information from a friends who were there. While communicating via emails, none of them have really voiced an opinion one way or the other. Mainly, they just talked about how bored they were or how much they just wanted to come home.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 2, 2003, 7:09 pm

Kooky I wish I can turn back time and try to talk your mom into not wanting the extra welfare deduction and chose the abortion.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 2, 2003, 7:18 pm

I don't support people who overthrow foreign governments so their masters can get wealthier from the country's natural resources. Sorry! I think veterans of this "war" (lol) should be treated with the shame that international bullies deserve.

I'm sure you will get your opportunity to show what a bitch you are when the Canadian troops return home.

Bocc · Post by **Bocc** » May 2, 2003, 8:27 pm

Kyoukan, the question was how to support the veterans; not the president. I am sure that some of the soldiers had viewpoints opposing yours, however our president's comments on the Iraqi soldiers following Saddam's orders does not reflect our populations opinion as a whole.

I do respect your views, however I feel that suggesting that we "Congratulate our soldiers on an illegal invasion" is disrespectful and uncalled for. Should we ask our entire armed forces how the enjoyed gunning down innocent civilians because a select few chose to do so?

I see flawed logic in the fact that you congratulate the people who may have lost a friend, family member or their own life on an "illegal invasion", because you do not support our president. That is all.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 2, 2003, 8:50 pm

I don't agree with Kyoukan at all.

The troops are not at fault. If you want to blame anyone, blame the American people for being naive, apathetic and ill-informed about world affairs, and electing a goverment in which this kind of action is allowed to occur.

Too many young men and women join the military because they feel they have nowhere else to turn. Given that the entire point of most of the training is to 'brainwash' (using the term loosely here) you to follow orders, and react to scenarios instinctively (because that's the only way a military force can work), I wholeheartedly disagree with assigning any responsibility for the operation in Iraq to any military personnel below the JCoS level.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 2, 2003, 8:55 pm

There was no draft. You can get out of the armed forces as a conscientious objector.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 8:57 pm

kyoukan wrote:Shortly before the conquest began Bush made a speech directed mostly at the Iraqis on the front lines saying that if they were caught fighting to defend Saddam's regime that they would be either killed by "coalition" forces or tried for war crimes, and that they would be unable to use the excuse that there were "just following orders."

I believe making a statement like that reflects George W. Bush's opinion that military service is voluntary and optional (also look at how long he went AWOL for when he was in the service) and at any time you can just leave. Obviously he views the service of one's country as any other of the disposable jobs he's had in his sorry excuse for a career. Thus, any US soldier fighting in Iraq is there because they want to be there.

I don't support people who overthrow foreign governments so their masters can get wealthier from the country's natural resources. Sorry! I think veterans of this "war" (lol) should be treated with the shame that international bullies deserve.

when i come home and get shit faced, the following day i'll take a beer shit. as i'm pooping, i'll be thinking of you.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 2, 2003, 9:09 pm

I wasn't referring to the faggot computer jockies too fucking sissy to hold a rifle in combat Spang so it's all good.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 9:15 pm

kyoukan wrote:I wasn't referring to the faggot computer jockies too fucking sissy to hold a rifle in combat Spang so it's all good.

what is your job in the military? are you even in the military? or are you "too fucking sissy" to join the military?

noel · Post by **noel** » May 2, 2003, 9:16 pm

Spang, you're an idiot.

kyoukan wrote:There was no draft. You can get out of the armed forces as a conscientious objector.

Kyou, you and I are fortunate people. We grew up in good locations, we're intelligent, and we received good educations. Not everyone is as fortunate as we are. Not everyone has somewhere else to go.

Also, look at the brainwashed idiots on this board. There are plenty of people who were socialized in such a way that they view service in the armed forces as the ultimate sacrifice and level of patriotism. Obviously this isn't the case, but I still contend you cannot blame our soldiers, sailors and marines for the decisions of our government.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 9:25 pm

just to add...chaplains don't carry weapons. they don't qualify with em either. they are not aloud to bare arms. it's the job of a chaplain's assistant to protect them in combat.

computer jockies, as you like to call em, qualify with a weapon of some sort. more than likely it's an M-16. they do enter the theatre, or atleast i did, with an M-16.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » May 2, 2003, 9:42 pm

Aranuil wrote:Spang, you're an idiot.

kyoukan wrote:There was no draft. You can get out of the armed forces as a conscientious objector.
Kyou, you and I are fortunate people. We grew up in good locations, we're intelligent, and we received good educations. Not everyone is as fortunate as we are. Not everyone has somewhere else to go.

Also, look at the brainwashed idiots on this board. There are plenty of people who were socialized in such a way that they view service in the armed forces as the ultimate sacrifice and level of patriotism. Obviously this isn't the case, but I still contend you cannot blame our soldiers, sailors and marines for the decisions of our government.

Dude, seriously get off the fence and call a spade a spade. Stop holding Kyoukan's hand and gently telling her she is wrong. She is an idiot to think that the soldiers returning should be treated with anything but a solid handshake and a welcome home. Object to the war if you want bitch but leave the returning soldiers out of it.

Kyoukan you are STILL A FROTHING AT THE MOUTH vv TROLL!!111!

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 2, 2003, 9:44 pm

Aranuil wrote:There are plenty of people who were socialized in such a way that they view service in the armed forces as the ultimate sacrifice and level of patriotism.

What have you done for your country Aranuil?

I sincerely appreciate the sacrifice of people like Spang. It wouldn't matter if he had never left the shores of the U.S.A. You can't imagine 4 years of service even in a peacetime military.

Is it the "ultimate" sacrifice? Hell no, for many troops it's not much different than your routine shitty job. But it's no car wash party time either. Name a job that can have your ass sent to prison if you decide to take an unscheduled vacation. Still, they are contributing. That's more than many of our "friends" on this board.

The troops that fought this war deserve to receive a Hero's welcome when they come home... whether they carried a rifle, clipboard, screwdriver, or a keyboard.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 2, 2003, 10:12 pm

Metanis wrote:
Aranuil wrote:There are plenty of people who were socialized in such a way that they view service in the armed forces as the ultimate sacrifice and level of patriotism.
What have you done for your country Aranuil?

None of your god damned business, but for the record, there are 4.3 million people in this country that are protected by a network and computer system that I designed and built.

I sincerely appreciate the sacrifice of people like Spang. It wouldn't matter if he had never left the shores of the U.S.A. You can't imagine 4 years of service even in a peacetime military.

Is it the "ultimate" sacrifice? Hell no, for many troops it's not much different than your routine shitty job. But it's no car wash party time either. Name a job that can have your ass sent to prison if you decide to take an unscheduled vacation. Still, they are contributing. That's more than many of our "friends" on this board.

The troops that fought this war deserve to receive a Hero's welcome when they come home... whether they carried a rifle, clipboard, screwdriver, or a keyboard.

Please don't confuse me calling Spang an idiot with me appreciating the role he's served in Kuwait. He's an idiot because of how he represents himself on these boards. Obviously the role he's filling is necessary and important. I've never once knocked him for his service in the military, and I never will, nor would I knock anyone else.

I personally was one day away from MEPS, and I was talked out of it by someone whom I have the utmost respect for; a person who made incredible sacrifices for his country as a member of the US Navy SEALs 1965-69, and not just in Vietnam by a long shot.

Toker, I give each person on this board the level of consideration and respect that I believe they deserve, and from now until eternity, I will make that determination for myself.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 2, 2003, 10:36 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Metanis wrote:What have you done for your country Aranuil?
None of your god damned business, but for the record, there are 4.3 million people in this country that are protected by a network and computer system that I designed and built.

I apologize for questioning your contribution Aranuil. Thank you for your clarification. There are many ways to serve. I wanted my post to express that point.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 2, 2003, 11:00 pm

Spangaloid_PE wrote:
kyoukan wrote:I wasn't referring to the faggot computer jockies too fucking sissy to hold a rifle in combat Spang so it's all good.
what is your job in the military? are you even in the military? or are you "too fucking sissy" to join the military?

Spang I dont think Canada has a Military.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » May 3, 2003, 12:33 am

There was no draft. You can get out of the armed forces as a conscientious objector.

If it were that only that simple.

Chances are that doing that would get you prison time and a dishonorable discharge. Neither of which looks very good when you are all of a sudden forced to look in the private sector for a job.

In college I met quite a few people while who signed up for 4-6 years service in order to get a fully paid education. None of them fit the picture you are trying to paint. I wouldn't doubt that most of them wouldn't have hesitated to say, "fuck Bush and his oil buddy cronies. I'm not buying his BS excuses and refuse to risk dying so that fucker can get even richer" and then quit provided that there were no serious repercussions.

Either you are totally unwavering in your beliefs and remarks (which isn't as high minded as you may think it is considering the company you'd be sharing with the some of the stupid fucks sitting on the opposite side of the fence that you are) or you can admit you were possibly wrong.

If you are saying the things you are simply to "rile up the good ole boys", then nevermind my remarks since I'm obviously not able to see the small print in between the lines.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » May 3, 2003, 2:19 am

Kyou, you and I are fortunate people. We grew up in good locations, we're intelligent, and we received good educations. Not everyone is as fortunate as we are. Not everyone has somewhere else to go.

I don't think you meant that to sound like it does. Just because someone joins the military does not mean they can't afford or have not had good education or that they grew up in the ghetto.

Braxter · Post by **Braxter** » May 3, 2003, 3:40 am

I'm usually not a spelling nazi, but lmao at this:

Spangaloid wrote:they are not aloud to bare arms

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 3, 2003, 7:48 am

Spangaloid_PE wrote:what is your job in the military? are you even in the military? or are you "too fucking sissy" to join the military?

Cool off there Rambo don't shoot me with your stapler. I serve my country by not being a fucking waste of taxpayer resources posting on EQ message boards from a military base in Kuwait. Can you say the same? Oh, you can't. I contribute to my country's financial and social well being. You're a stupid redneck that shouldn't even be in the armed forces with your atrocious lack of education. But then I guess if the US military was pickier about the slobs they scrape off the streets then maybe they would be less effective tools for the conservative white elite to manipulate.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 3, 2003, 8:20 am

kyoukan wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:what is your job in the military? are you even in the military? or are you "too fucking sissy" to join the military?
Cool off there Rambo don't shoot me with your stapler. I serve my country by not being a fucking waste of taxpayer resources posting on EQ message boards from a military base in Kuwait. Can you say the same? Oh, you can't. I contribute to my country's financial and social well being. You're a stupid redneck that shouldn't even be in the armed forces with your atrocious lack of education. But then I guess if the US military was pickier about the slobs they scrape off the streets then maybe they would be less effective tools for the conservative white elite to manipulate.

Werd, because Democrats have never used the military. yee-hah?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 3, 2003, 8:22 am

Control+F shows that the first usage of the word democrat came from you just now.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 3, 2003, 9:57 am

Ok. I know theres a point in there somewhere. Let me try. Control+F shows that you are the first person to use Control+F in this thread....

Seriously, you misunderstood my poke at your post I think.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 3, 2003, 10:21 am

I didn't miunderstand anything. You're trying to say that I am equating democrats as the antithesis of the conservative white male super wealthy elite. I'm just saying don't put words in my mouth.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 3, 2003, 12:59 pm

Just because someone joins the military does not mean they can't afford or have not had good education

I think that sums up the majority of our military. I'd say a solid 60-70%. Very few join up under the impression, or God forbid, hope that they will actually have to fight/die in actual combat.

There are some great people in the Military with lofty ambitions and admirable goals. However, most just have no idea what to do after high school since they cannot afford to go to college. That's why the armed forces pimp out the whole "money for your education" campaign. It's a huge draw. Every single person I know who joined the military did so for that single benefit.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 3, 2003, 9:08 pm

kyoukan wrote:Cool off there Rambo don't shoot me with your stapler. I serve my country by not being a fucking waste of taxpayer resources posting on EQ message boards from a military base in Kuwait. Can you say the same? Oh, you can't. I contribute to my country's financial and social well being. You're a stupid redneck that shouldn't even be in the armed forces with your atrocious lack of education. But then I guess if the US military was pickier about the slobs they scrape off the streets then maybe they would be less effective tools for the conservative white elite to manipulate.

i can't even comment on this bullshit. cause all it is, is bullshit. come back to me when you feel like making some sense.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 3, 2003, 9:57 pm

Yeah well double dumbass on you!

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » May 3, 2003, 10:23 pm

Kyoukan wrote:

Cool off there Rambo don't shoot me with your stapler. I serve my country by not being a fucking waste of taxpayer resources posting on EQ message boards from a military base in Kuwait. Can you say the same? Oh, you can't. I contribute to my country's financial and social well being. You're a stupid redneck that shouldn't even be in the armed forces with your atrocious lack of education. But then I guess if the US military was pickier about the slobs they scrape off the streets then maybe they would be less effective tools for the conservative white elite to manipulate.

Ya you do it from the welfare line with your government bought laptop and your food stamps firmly clenched in your hands! Further who are you ripping off? Are you working and posting on these boards or do you collect disability checks to cover your constant ability to post shit on these boards?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 3, 2003, 11:11 pm

kyoukan wrote:Yeah well double dumbass on you!

What's up with this? Resorting to grade school insults?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 4, 2003, 1:50 am

Metanis wrote:
kyoukan wrote:Yeah well double dumbass on you!
What's up with this? Resorting to grade school insults?

It was a parody of the fact he just totally dismissed a well thought out flame with a bullshit "blah blah this is bullshit" retort.

the fact you didn't get it surprises me not at all.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » May 4, 2003, 3:39 am

A well thought out flame would have to have some hard facts.

Too many young men and women join the military because they feel they have nowhere else to turn. Given that the entire point of most of the training is to 'brainwash' (using the term loosely here) you to follow orders, and react to scenarios instinctively (because that's the only way a military force can work), I wholeheartedly disagree with assigning any responsibility for the operation in Iraq to any military personnel below the JCoS level.

Aranuil, if you had a system attacked by a hacker. What would you do?Would you go though steps to counter or close off what access they have as soon as possable? Then your brainwashed. Saying the military brainwashes anyone is wrong.If anything, people just run though the same thing over and over. As example, the infantry runs though battle drills. They learn how to do things, just as anyone else would in school just in a diffrent subject.

The only responsibility of any of this lays at the feet of Bush, The French, Russians, the UN,and Iraq. Everything, and anyone else were just chess peices to be moved around and do whatever actions that "sides" felt were needed. Blaming the military isn't even right. Just because you are a conscientious objector, doesn't mean you can get out of the military.You still have to do your job that you enlisted for.

If you don't. A dishonorable discharge fucks up almost any chance at a good job. You wont recive any gov. benifits, I dont think you even get social security. Won't be able to get a Gov, State, or City job. Maybe some time at Fort Levenworth, reduction to no rank, no pay/fined.

If a person signed up for the military, 7 out of 10 people won't even see combat. They will have a support role if even that. Only 3? active duty military divisons were in the combat/around Iraq. The rest were National Guardsmen * My unit was attached to the 3rd ID* or the reserves. I didn't sign up hoping/or even thinking I'd be shipped off for a war. College, and serving the State of Florida during natural dest. and what have you was all we ever trained for along with speical ops in case of terrorist attacks

Looking down on everysingle person in the military is just ignorant. You're no worse than a white man calling a black person a nigger because of some hate. Not all served with the want to go kill people, or invade a country. They did their jobs for their families, or their "self service" to their country.

Want to really get down to it. The United States along with the Canadians, and others invaded Afghanistan unlawfully. Out right attacked a country that posed no threat to them.They didn't have the backing of the UN. Just because a small sector of "aggressive" people lived there made it right? Or did we do it to "save" the people from a unlawful Government, who supported a terrorist net work no matter how little or major.

Invaded Afghanistan due to a Gov that supported a terrorist network with no WMD and no direct actions with them. Overthrew their Gov, and replaced it with a soon to be the "peoples". Invading Iraq due to the possibility of still having WMD, no proof of ever destroying them, besides of the UN's limited time to search and destroy pre 2000. Once a hostile state, that invaded a country that boarders them, and a track record of killing masses of people though chemical means due to relgious belief. Also paying out 25,000 dollars to suicide bombers.

I don't like war. No one should. I also dislike people who are ignorant of the world, and thinks everything will work out if everyone is happy. I wish it was the way, yet its not. It takes 2 or more to do actions/people that lead to war. Not just one.

No. I'm not saying the Al Quada network is involved with Iraq. Or the reason for us to attack Iraq.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 4, 2003, 6:45 am

Raistin wrote: Aranuil, if you had a system attacked by a hacker. What would you do?Would you go though steps to counter or close off what access they have as soon as possable? Then your brainwashed. Saying the military brainwashes anyone is wrong.If anything, people just run though the same thing over and over. As example, the infantry runs though battle drills. They learn how to do things, just as anyone else would in school just in a diffrent subject.

I realize it's not actual brainwashing, Raistin. I think US military training is nearly perfect in all ways, and I would like to think that I not only understand the metods that are used to train our troops, but also the reasons. Whether you want to admit it or not, it's a type of brainwashing. You obey orders, without question, immediately, no matter what that order is. You do it because you rely upon the higher ranks to know what needs to be done. When everyone does their job, it works out well. There's not a fucking thing wrong with it.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » May 4, 2003, 8:30 am

Brainwashing may be the wrong term for it.
Conditioning, specifically for battle sceanrios, might more aptly descibe it.