Racism is Alive & Well!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 2, 2003, 12:58 pm

Georgia is a fucking backwater, and I'm not very suprised at this.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 2, 2003, 1:03 pm

Somali,
True but unfortunately the majority of the kids are black. I will change my statement to "inner city kids" instead of "black children", I guess that works better. I am not really for affirmative action, I am for giving them an equal opportunity to excell.

I don't believe in giving preferences either way, and I belive that racism works both ways. I do believe that we need to focus more on the real problem, which is as I said giving equal opportunity.

As well as the rest of the world

Yes racism does indeed exist all over the world, but I have yet to see it stronger than here in the USA. Especially after 9/11.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 2, 2003, 1:10 pm

Yes racism does indeed exist all over the world, but I have yet to see it stronger than here in the USA. Especially after 9/11.

And the US has recent history littered with racism, slavery and segregation.
When I first encountered american racism, I was floored.

I grew up in a fairly small (120k people), blue collar city... but saw virtually no racism at all. I don't think I heard the word 'nigger' used until I was about 12 years old (and 2 of my best friends were 'coloured').
It wasn't until I lerned about the history of american slavery, groups like the KKK and inner city segregation that I realised how ingrained racism is on american culture.

Post by **Sylvus** » May 2, 2003, 1:17 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:It'd be lovely if we didn't have to think of someones race at all, but I doubt that will ever happen honestly.

I think it could happen, and as much as I abhor sharing a similar opinion as Spangaloid I think that just calling everyone who lives here an American will only help that along. Yeah, it might be idealism on my part, but I think that perpetuating subclassifications only helps foster prejudice against those subclassifications.

When a little kid sees someone who is different from him and asks "Daddy, why is that guy [white | black | yellow | olive | red | whatever]" and his father responds "Oh, that's because he's a(n) [Irish-American | African-American| Asian-American | Italian-American | Native American | Whatever-American]" none of those words are anymore positive to the kid than [ mick | nigger | chink | whatever ] are negative. At least not until they are reinforced by positive or negative views and actions toward that person. Until then, it's strictly a matter of semantics and reinforcing the idea that there is any fundamental difference between the kid who's asking and the person he's looking at is not going to change anything.

Granted, just calling us all Americans isn't going to change anything by itself either, but it's a start.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 2, 2003, 1:35 pm

Kelshara wrote:Somali,
True but unfortunately the majority of the kids are black. I will change my statement to "inner city kids" instead of "black children", I guess that works better. I am not really for affirmative action, I am for giving them an equal opportunity to excell.

I don't believe in giving preferences either way, and I belive that racism works both ways. I do believe that we need to focus more on the real problem, which is as I said giving equal opportunity.

As well as the rest of the world
Yes racism does indeed exist all over the world, but I have yet to see it stronger than here in the USA. Especially after 9/11.

Im sure you meant to say more publicized then the rest of the world.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 2, 2003, 1:47 pm

Racism isn't only defined by black vs white and if you get beyond it, it is more common and widespread than people want to admit.

I grew up in a small town (6K people) in the sticks (northern Alberta). There were some Lebanese people, some vietnamese, some hindus, a few "black" people, a lot of "white" people and while there were always some ignorant assholes who could spout off when they had enough liquor poured into them, these various ethnic backgrounds were accepted and valued.

The racism I grew up with was natives (Cree) vs whites. The fights in school from elementary to high school, the fights in the bars, etc. were 80% white vs native and there was a very strong distrust between the 2 groups. A lot of this grew from the "resentment" of what each group had. The Whites "got all the best jobs handed to them" and had "more money". The natives "didn't have to pay taxes" and got "all the government handouts". And this thinking was passed from generation to the next, continuing the "us and them" mentalities. There wasn't massive violence between the groups but there was a lot of hatred and resentment. I grew up being call a "fucking whitey" or "moonyhow" (white person in Cree) and grew up refering to others as "bucks", "squaws", and various other slurs.

Yeah its rooted in ignorance. And that ignorance is propagated every time we refer to someone else in terms that highlight a distinction. I hate political correctness with a passion: I don't think its educating to eliminate a problem as much as it is trying to sugar-coating it. Racism needs to be fought with education and reason not sugar: the myths behind the resentments need to be exposed for the fallacies that they are.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 1:53 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:You have a problem with African American? You are such a Nazi.
no, i have a problem with calling all black people african americans...unles they was born there, they're just americans like me or any other american born in america regardless of race...nothing more, nothing less.

now if they was born in africa, that's different.
So, smart guy, what do you call Asian Americans? Your logic doesn't apply there.

if they was born in America, i call them Americans...imagine that huh?

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 2:04 pm

Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:You have a problem with African American? You are such a Nazi.
no, i have a problem with calling all black people african americans...unles they was born there, they're just americans like me or any other american born in america regardless of race...nothing more, nothing less.

now if they was born in africa, that's different.
So, smart guy, what do you call Asian Americans? Your logic doesn't apply there.
if they was born in America, i call them Americans...imagine that huh?

We're talking about racial not citizenship differentiations, if you haven't noticed. How should another race be referred to?

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » May 2, 2003, 2:13 pm

Lalanae

actually, while the original post is about racism, your post brought the discussion towards the usage of the word "African-american"

You have a problem with African American? You are such a Nazi

The discussion then took a turn towards the usage of PC speak.

In reference to your question about races.

White/European - caucasion
Latin/Spanish/Mexican - hispanic
Asian - Asian
Black - Black

The terms African-American refers to heritage, not race. A white person from South Africa is still an African-American, if they live here in the US and are still a citizen of South Africa. Or do you think only black people live in Africa?

You are arguing apples and oranges, and calling both of them apricots.

Put aside your anger and hatred of Spang, no matter how justified and let this one drop.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 2:35 pm

Fizzlewhip wrote:Lalanae

actually, while the original post is about racism, your post brought the discussion towards the usage of the word "African-american"

You have a problem with African American? You are such a Nazi
The discussion then took a turn towards the usage of PC speak.

No it took a turn with Spangaloid bitching about the usage. I am just pointing out how limited his logic is. He doesn't want to use "African American" because the person is "not from Africa" but many Asians who live in the US aren't "from Asia." He'd rather refer to an African American as "black?" He hasn't answered my question.

The rest of your post is nonsensically subjective to what you prefer. When the government or commercial business takes a poll that asks about race, they use "African American" not "black," but I guess you would argue with them that they are incorrect?

If you want to call people "black" fine, go ahead. But to say that "African American" is wrong or "stupid" when the community itself would prefer to be labeled as such is pretty closed-minded. To get indignant about using it also shows that you have some personal issue invested in it...mild racism perhaps? Doesn't take a PhD in Psychology to recognize that.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 2:44 pm

Lalanae wrote:If you want to call people "black" fine, go ahead. But to say that "African American" is wrong or "stupid" when the community itself would prefer to be labeled as such is pretty closed-minded. To get indignant about using it also shows that you have some personal issue invested in it...mild racism perhaps? Doesn't take a PhD in Psychology to recognize that.

who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.

anyways...Fizzle pretty much answered the prior question as i would have, cept i would have said uh and um OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS and it wouldn't have made any sense, cause as we all know, i'm a dumb fuck.

now what do i call people of different races? i call em people, woman, chick, dude, guy, man, etc...

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » May 2, 2003, 2:55 pm

Actually, I can find quite a bit of blacks the prefer to be called black.

Are all black from Africa? No. Some come from Jamaica, and other Caribean islands.

Some blacks say African-American doesn't describe them

By ANDREA RUBIN
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: Sept. 02, 2001)

SPRING VALLEY — No one phrase can describe Marie Solange Francois.

Black may be the adjective she would use, and African-American the noun that could help identify her. But there are also Haitian, Haitian-American and — her favorite — Haitian-African.

"I would love it if they called me Haitian-African," she said. "I would be happy one day to go (to Africa) for a visit."

The 2000 Census counted roughly 31,600 blacks in Rockland, about 11 percent of the county's residents. But many are from places such as Haiti, Jamaica and other Caribbean islands and say the term African-American doesn't really fit them. They don't necessarily feel disconnected from their African roots, but rather don't always feel honest calling themselves American.

Francois has lived in the United States since 1970 and is a naturalized citizen. So she isn't troubled when people call her African-American.

At least, not anymore.

"I love African-American but (felt) like a Haitian-African," she said.

The term African-American had been used in academic circles for nearly a decade before Jesse Jackson suggested in the late 1980s that blacks refer to themselves in that way.

It took a while for the phrase to gain acceptance. In 1991, the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a black-oriented study group, released a survey showing that 72 percent of blacks said they preferred the term black, 15 percent wanted to be called African-American, 3 percent liked Afro-American and 2 percent Negro. The rest said they had no opinion or gave other responses.

Faye Codner-Smith, the president of the Jamaican Cultural and Civic Organization of Rockland, said she would prefer to be called African-American.

"The important thing is to acknowledge the origin and show a oneness with those from the African diaspora." she said. "It's not to diminish where we are from now, but it goes back even further to show … our heritage, which is very important."

Wilbur Aldridge, economic advancement chairman for the Nyack branch of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, agreed the term African-American acknowledged his history.

"We have had numerous names throughout the years. We've gone from colored to Negroes to black to African-American to any number of derogative names in between. It doesn't matter," Aldridge said. "Ultimately, I'm still Wilbur Aldridge from Greensboro, North Carolina."

Daniela Ducasse said she has no problem with the term African-American for those who were born here. But she said the phrase makes her feel as if she is rejecting her Haitian roots.

"For those who were born here, it really defines them and it fits very well. But as far as me calling myself African-American, no," Ducasse said. "I'm a Haitian woman that is striving in America. I'm a Haitian-American."

Further, the terms African American is a voluntary label. The US government still uses Black as well

What Racial Categories Will Be Used in Current Surveys and Other Data Collections by the Census Bureau?

By January 1, 2003, all current surveys must comply with the 1997 revisions to the Office of Management and Budget's standards for data on race and ethnicity, which establish a minimum of five categories for race: American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, Black or African American, Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander, and White. Respondents will be able to select one or more of these racial categories. The minimum categories for ethnicity will be Hispanic or Latino and Not Hispanic or Latino. Tabulations of the racial categories will be shown as long as they meet agency standards for data quality and confidentiality protection. For most surveys, however, tables will show data at most for the White, Black, and Asian populations.

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Population Division,
Special Population Staff

http://www.census.gov/population/www/so ... actcb.html
http://www.census.gov/population/www/so ... black.html
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www ... andas.html

So to state that only "African-American" is used is false. I am sorry if you found my post "nonsensically subjective ", however I do believe that I am entitled to my opinion, as you are entitled to yours. However I do provide outside proof and support of my subjective opinion.

Regardless of who turned the post into a debate about the usage of the speak, that is the way the debate turned. You then layed into spang with little basis to support your statements. Please do not take offense to this as I am not trying to offend you, but rather state my position, and why I feel yours is not relevant here.

Do I argue with pollsters about the use of African American? Depending on my mood, but mostly yes. There are typically feedback spaces at the end of most polls/questionaires. I use that to voice my displeasure.

Does it work? I can almost guarantee you it doesn't. But I still have my say.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 2:56 pm

Spangaloid_PE wrote: who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.

Thats not a racist statement, so try again....

Spangaloid_PE wrote: now what do i call people of different races? i call em people, woman, chick, dude, guy, man, etc...

You aren't answering the question. How do you DIFFERENTIATE races? You can't possibly be saying you've never referred to someone as "black" or "Asian" or "white."

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 2, 2003, 2:58 pm

Im sure you meant to say more publicized then the rest of the world.

No I didn't.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 3:02 pm

Lalanae wrote:You aren't answering the question. How do you DIFFERENTIATE races? You can't possibly be saying you've never referred to someone as "black" or "Asian" or "white."

i don't differentiate races. i don't see a race when i look at someone, i see a person.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 3:06 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote: who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.
Thats not a racist statement, so try again....

actually, i am 25% german so in a sense, it is a racist statement.

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » May 2, 2003, 3:07 pm

further, since I missed this :

If you want to call people "black" fine, go ahead. But to say that "African American" is wrong or "stupid" when the community itself would prefer to be labeled as such is pretty closed-minded. To get indignant about using it also shows that you have some personal issue invested in it...mild racism perhaps? Doesn't take a PhD in Psychology to recognize that

Actually, my wanting to ignore skin color and race and rather refer to them as a generic american is a complete opposite of racism.

Perhaps you need to learn what racism truly is. You definately don't have a doctorate in anything, much less psychology. Who is being the closed minded one, insisting of labelling people based on the color of their skin or ethnic origin? I can say with 100% certainty it isn't me.

Let's see...could it be you? The one who insists on segregating people based off of ancestry rather than ignoring it?

example:

I describe a person as an American. What color do you think this person is? Correct answer? I don't know. I don't have any information on that!

Now lets add in something else.

I describe a person as an African-american. Now what color do you first think of? Correct answer, for those un-enlightend enough to not realize there are also white people in Africa... Black.

Do you see the immediate distinction? Both are American, yet immediately you segregate them into racial categories.

That, to me, is racist.

Somali · Post by **Somali** » May 2, 2003, 3:20 pm

Muttz r00l purebreeds dr00l

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 2, 2003, 3:53 pm

We're talking about racial not citizenship differentiations, if you haven't noticed. How should another race be referred to?

You are 100% missing the point here.

You shouldn't give two shits what a persons racial background is, period. It's their buisness not yours. Tagging people only allows for easier judgement and stereotyping, both of which are antithetical to equality.

Short version, if you have to call a black a black rather than an American, that's racism.

Back to the original topic, the school is going to get raped on this. It turns out the "prom" is a private party being held in a city 50 miles away, which means the principal can't do a damn thing to stop it. The entire country is going to continue to associate the event with the school, based on the use of the word "prom".

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » May 2, 2003, 3:56 pm

the school washed its hands of the event a couple of years ago and has no affiliation with the dance.

i have had a change of heart.

there should be a seperate prom. the white kids will show up to theirs, and will be anesthetized and sterilized.

problem solved!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 2, 2003, 4:06 pm

Voronwë wrote:the school washed its hands of the event a couple of years ago and has no affiliation with the dance.

i have had a change of heart.

there should be a seperate prom. the white kids will show up to theirs, and will be anesthetized and sterilized.

problem solved!

Now Im not condoning this at all, I think it is horrable that the Parents of these kids are allowing this to happen. Racism is a bad thing it is a cancer that effects the far reaches of this earth.

Playing Devils Advocate here:

We all have been in heated arguments about our freedoms in this country, It sounds like to me OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of people are telling these kids they cant express there right to be Racist Pigs.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 2, 2003, 4:11 pm

That's right Cart.

This is one of those areas where you can not excersize your rightw without infringing on the rights of others. The individual loses to the group.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 4:18 pm

Fizzlewhip wrote:
Dregor Thule wrote:Not to be picky here, but Canada is in America too. African American, Asian American, etc, all can apply just as easily in Canada. Would you call someone of Chinese descent that was born in the US, Chinese? Or are you devout in referring to them only as American? I hear Asian American and I think of an American of Asian descent. Not really born in Asia, but that's his roots. Same for African Americans.

I don't see anything wrong in calling them black personally, I know I don't mean it in a derrogatory fashion. But I feel uncomfortable calling an Asian yellow, or an East Indian brown. Not that I mean them as insults, I just associate them as not appropriate. It's weird. It'd be lovely if we didn't have to think of someones race at all, but I doubt that will ever happen honestly. Not only because of bad reasons, people also like to hold on to their pieces of culture.
Actually, if you were being nitpicky, the term American applies to at least 24 different countries, if you count Central and South america. However the term American has become the popular reference to people from the United States of America, possibly because it is much easier to refer to them by a single word, rather than trying to say "You United Stater", or "Statesman/woman". Back when Russia was part of the USSR, we still referred to people from that region as Russian, or Soviet, even if they were actually Ukrainian, Siberian, etc. Now before you state that people were called Siberian, at the time it was the same situation that we have in the US. We have Georgians, but they are still under the blanket term of American.

Am I "religious" about calling a person of Asian descent an American? Yes. I absolutely HATE PC speak.

I've heard some very humorous and imaginative alternatives to United Stater

Back to my example, you're trying to tell me that if you were confronted with an American citizen of Asian descent, Chinese for arguments sake, and you were asked to define what they were, Chinese or Asian wouldn't enter your mind as an answer at all? And before you answer, remember you're lying if you say it wouldn't.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 4:23 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Dregor Thule wrote:It'd be lovely if we didn't have to think of someones race at all, but I doubt that will ever happen honestly.
I think it could happen, and as much as I abhor sharing a similar opinion as Spangaloid I think that just calling everyone who lives here an American will only help that along. Yeah, it might be idealism on my part, but I think that perpetuating subclassifications only helps foster prejudice against those subclassifications.

When a little kid sees someone who is different from him and asks "Daddy, why is that guy [white | black | yellow | olive | red | whatever]" and his father responds "Oh, that's because he's a(n) [Irish-American | African-American| Asian-American | Italian-American | Native American | Whatever-American]" none of those words are anymore positive to the kid than [ mick | nigger | chink | whatever ] are negative. At least not until they are reinforced by positive or negative views and actions toward that person. Until then, it's strictly a matter of semantics and reinforcing the idea that there is any fundamental difference between the kid who's asking and the person he's looking at is not going to change anything.

Granted, just calling us all Americans isn't going to change anything by itself either, but it's a start.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like things to be like this. It'd be fabulous if there were complete racial equality, that the only time ones race was even an issue was in terms of culture and enriching it. I'm just being realistic.

In school, when it came to race and the USA, I was taught that it was the melting pot effect, that people from other countries who came to live in the USA were supposed to adopt the American way of living, the American culture, and American ideals. Canada on the other hand was a mosaic, where people of different cultures were encouraged to maintain their unique ways of life (to a reasonable extent.. some things just wouldn't go). I like to think I've grown up believing in that view on things when it comes to differing races.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 4:27 pm

Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote: who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.
Thats not a racist statement, so try again....
actually, i am 25% german so in a sense, it is a racist statement.

Nazi isn't a race, it's a political affiliation and system of beliefs. You just called all Germans Nazi's, how's that for racism? 25% German, 100% slack-jawed yokel.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 2, 2003, 4:34 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote: who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.
Thats not a racist statement, so try again....
actually, i am 25% german so in a sense, it is a racist statement.
Nazi isn't a race, it's a political affiliation and system of beliefs. You just called all Germans Nazi's, how's that for racism? 25% German, 100% slack-jawed yokel.

It depends on how you use the word NAZI if its a Racist term or not.

Call a German A Fucking Nazi and its a racist term.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 4:35 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote: who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.
Thats not a racist statement, so try again....
actually, i am 25% german so in a sense, it is a racist statement.
Nazi isn't a race, it's a political affiliation and system of beliefs. You just called all Germans Nazi's, how's that for racism? 25% German, 100% slack-jawed yokel.

haha, no i didn't...if she or anyone thinks all germans are nazi's then it is a racist statement. this is why i said "in a sense, it is a racist statement."

let me rephrase to make you sleep better tonight...it can be considered a racist statement.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 4:41 pm

Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Dregor Thule wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote: who's really the racist one here? you're the one calling people Nazi's.
Thats not a racist statement, so try again....
actually, i am 25% german so in a sense, it is a racist statement.
Nazi isn't a race, it's a political affiliation and system of beliefs. You just called all Germans Nazi's, how's that for racism? 25% German, 100% slack-jawed yokel.
haha, no i didn't...if she or anyone thinks all germans are nazi's then it is a racist statement. this is why i said "in a sense, it is a racist statement."

let me rephrase to make you sleep better tonight...it can be considered a racist statement.

Jesus Christ. Yes, it's a racist statement, IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN OF A TIT MOUSE. So, indeed, to you it is a racist statement. Being German is not a prerequisite to being a Nazi. Yes, the Nazi movement had it's roots in Germany, but there were plenty of non-German Nazi's during those times, hell, there are still people who consider themselves Nazi's, and they're not all German. So ok, if you can't wrap your mind around the concept of political afilliation and racial identity being seperate things, then by all means, take it as a racial slur. Just remember that the person saying it could very well not be talking about race at all, as I'm sure Lalanae had no idea you were 1/4 German.

You fucking Nazi.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 2, 2003, 4:49 pm

in about 200 years there will mainly only be one race, a mix of pretty much every race, maybe even at the end of our lifetime we will start to see that whites or blacks etc are not the majority, but mixes are

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 4:50 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Dregor Thule wrote:
Spangaloid_PE wrote:
Lalanae wrote: Thats not a racist statement, so try again....
actually, i am 25% german so in a sense, it is a racist statement.
Nazi isn't a race, it's a political affiliation and system of beliefs. You just called all Germans Nazi's, how's that for racism? 25% German, 100% slack-jawed yokel.
haha, no i didn't...if she or anyone thinks all germans are nazi's then it is a racist statement. this is why i said "in a sense, it is a racist statement."

let me rephrase to make you sleep better tonight...it can be considered a racist statement.
Jesus Christ. Yes, it's a racist statement, IF YOU HAVE THE BRAIN OF A TIT MOUSE. So, indeed, to you it is a racist statement. Being German is not a prerequisite to being a Nazi. Yes, the Nazi movement had it's roots in Germany, but there were plenty of non-German Nazi's during those times, hell, there are still people who consider themselves Nazi's, and they're not all German. So ok, if you can't wrap your mind around the concept of political afilliation and racial identity being seperate things, then by all means, take it as a racial slur. Just remember that the person saying it could very well not be talking about race at all, as I'm sure Lalanae had no idea you were 1/4 German.

You fucking Nazi.

if you read thru this thread you'll see that i stated how i wanted to be called german-american, being sarcastic. eventhough i am part german, i am an american. not a german-american. granted i never said i wanted to be called 25% german-american, the fact remains that if a person as good reading comprehension skills they would know that i am part german.

i can almost garauntee you that Lalanae wasn't calling me nazi because she thought i was affiliated with that political party.

you fucking republican

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 5:09 pm

You assume I read each thing you post diligently and commit it to memory. You assume too much. I'm positive she wasn't seriously calling you a Nazi because you're German, the closest it came to that was out of sarcasm. I'd guess that it was probably more an insult based on her having absolutely zero respect for you, thinking you're a backward cretin with some pretty fucked up ideals. But that's just my interpretation on things.

And seriously, damn, calling me a republican. That's lower than Nazi

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » May 2, 2003, 5:14 pm

Could this country truly become any more ignorant? It's rather embarassing

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 5:17 pm

There is nothing wrong in referring to someone's ethnicity, provided you are respectful. Using neutral racial modifiers is not racism.

Why didn't you address my previous question boys? Race plays a role in many surveys. Are you saying THAT is racist? So our govt is racist because they use racial modifiers in discourse?

Listen to how stupid you guys sound! You're trying to jump on me for being a racist because Spangaloid wants to deny African Americans the racial label they prefer....What sense does that make?

Why don't you try addressing the ISSUE I pointed out to Spangaloid? Because you can't.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 2, 2003, 5:19 pm

The americans (being one myself) are generally the most arrogant people on earth. The US is the most powerful country in the world, yet i dont believe personally it has the highest quality of life. For power and quality of life have absolutly nothing to do with eachother, considering that in the most powerful empires of the past, most of the citizens lived like shit. (Not saying americans live like shit!)

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 5:20 pm

This is for you Fallanthas since you have some trouble with the definition of racism

rac·ism
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 5:25 pm

Lalanae wrote:There is nothing wrong in referring to someone's ethnicity, provided you are respectful. Using neutral racial modifiers is not racism.

Why didn't you address my previous question boys? Race plays a role in many surveys. Are you saying THAT is racist? So our govt is racist because they use racial modifiers in discourse?

Listen to how stupid you guys sound! You're trying to jump on me for being a racist because Spangaloid wants to deny African Americans the racial label they prefer....What sense does that make?

Why don't you try addressing the ISSUE I pointed out to Spangaloid? Because you can't.

if someone from Jamaica moved to the US and became a US citizen, what would you call them?

me? i'd call em Jamaican-American because they were born in Jamaica.

now...let's say the Jamaican-American has a kid. for the sake of this discussion they live in Georgia. kid grows up in an American society, has no Jamaican accent at all. but guess what? he's black. you gonna call him african-american?

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 5:45 pm

Why don't you answer the question I've asked? You keep skipping over them because you CANT answer them. You are using weak diversionary tactics by throwing questions at me without answering the ones I posed.

Thats BAD debate. At least I address issues posed. When you can learn to answer my questions, then I'll address yours.

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 5:46 pm

Lalanae wrote:Why don't you answer the question I've asked? You keep skipping over them because you CANT answer them. You are using weak diversionary tactics by throwing questions at me without answering the ones I posed.

Thats BAD debate. At least I address issues posed. When you can learn to answer my questions, then I'll address yours.

what's the fucking question?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 2, 2003, 5:46 pm

There is nothing wrong in referring to someone's ethnicity, provided you are respectful. Using neutral racial modifiers is not racism.

We aren't talking about two people standing around the office discussing one another's ethnic background. If you use terms like "my Asian-American friend" ask yourself why in hell you need to make their ethnicity an issue?

Hyphenated-Americanism is used widely in the public arena to deliniate one political group from another. And it's bullshit, plain and simple. You want equality, drop your tags and be an American like the rest of us.

Oh, to answer your survey question...asking my race isn't racism. Making use of that information in just about any way most definitely is. Therefore, the survey is either a precursor to racism or a colossal waste of time and paper.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » May 2, 2003, 5:49 pm

Fallanthas wrote:
There is nothing wrong in referring to someone's ethnicity, provided you are respectful. Using neutral racial modifiers is not racism.
We aren't talking about two people standing around the office discussing one another's ethnic background. If you use terms like "my Asian-American friend" ask yourself why in hell you need to make their ethnicity an issue?

Hyphenated-Americanism is used widely in the public arena to deliniate one political group from another. And it's bullshit, plain and simple. You want equality, drop your tags and be an American like the rest of us.

Oh, to answer your survey question...asking my race isn't racism. Making use of that information in just about any way most definitely is. Therefore, the survey is either a precursor to racism or a colossal waste of time and paper.

So (as an example) if I ask a woman her racial background, she tells me, say... Vietnamese, and I make a pick up line in the Vietnamese language, I am a racist?

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 2, 2003, 5:54 pm

Would you not agree that your example comes fairly close to the one I gave above concerning two individuals discussing each others heritage?

Can you honestly say you have ever had an individual tell you they were Asian-American? Or Vietnamese-American?

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » May 2, 2003, 6:02 pm

Fallanthas wrote:We aren't talking about two people standing around the office discussing one another's ethnic background. If you use terms like "my Asian-American friend" ask yourself why in hell you need to make their ethnicity an issue?

No we aren't, I agree. But then why did you ask the question if that's what we are NOT talking about?

My whole point is that

1) Spang got bent out of shape over the term African American used in Dregor's post. That means he thinks another term should be used. What then? If Dregor said "people" it would have made NO sense.

2) Spang then says "They aren't from Africa." THAT is his explanation

3) When I obliviate this logic by asking him about Asians (who "aren't from Asia") he THEN changes his story. NOW his issue has nothing to do with geography. He doesn't think race should be referred to at all. Look back at #1. See the complete shift? He still hasn't explained what word Dregor should have used. I guess he wants a big space there?

Never in any point did Spangaloid explain himself. We are talking about racial discourse, that is, talk about racial matters. The initial topic is about race, Dregor's response is about race. Racial modifiers MUST be used to differentiate. Why is it so hard for Spang to just answer the question? Because he knows his "they aren't from Africa" logic does not go across the board so therefore fails.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 2, 2003, 6:06 pm

Lalanae: You're using as many diversionary tactics as they are. Instead of focusing on the primary issue, you're making issues out of tiny little issues like "which attitude is more racist" and "is nazi a race."

While you're arguing these minor points, you're ignoring major points. Fizzlewhip provided an article and concrete data which seem to refute your assertion that the Black community prefers the term "African-American," among other issues. Why don't you respond to this? You completely ignored this point, even though it's the closest thing to serious debate you're going to find here.

I want you to respond, because I know you're intelligent, and I'm actually curious to see how this discussion would have evolved had you not entirely ignored it.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 6:14 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Would you not agree that your example comes fairly close to the one I gave above concerning two individuals discussing each others heritage?

Can you honestly say you have ever had an individual tell you they were Asian-American? Or Vietnamese-American?

I've seen celebrities of an Asian descent (IS THAT OK FUCKERS?!?) refer to themselves as Asian-Americans, yes. And I'm not talking Jet Li or Jackie Chan, born and raised in the USA people of Asian descent.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 6:18 pm

Sueven wrote:Lalanae: You're using as many diversionary tactics as they are. Instead of focusing on the primary issue, you're making issues out of tiny little issues like "which attitude is more racist" and "is nazi a race."

While you're arguing these minor points, you're ignoring major points. Fizzlewhip provided an article and concrete data which seem to refute your assertion that the Black community prefers the term "African-American," among other issues. Why don't you respond to this? You completely ignored this point, even though it's the closest thing to serious debate you're going to find here.

I want you to respond, because I know you're intelligent, and I'm actually curious to see how this discussion would have evolved had you not entirely ignored it.

Now, I know one organization cannot speak for every black person in America, but I think the NAACP is a pretty good source for getting a feel on what is and isn't wanted. I got this in 2 seconds looking at the NAACP website:

The NAACP's Washington Bureau, established in 1941 as the legislative arm of the Association, is one of the primary forces in the nation's capital lobbying for civil rights. The bureau has charted a legislative advocacy course that has won international respect for its vigilance on behalf of the rights of African Americans and other minorities.

Does that address that issue sufficiently?

Spangaloid_PE · Post by **Spangaloid_PE** » May 2, 2003, 6:22 pm

Lalanae wrote:1) Spang got bent out of shape over the term African American used in Dregor's post. That means he thinks another term should be used. What then? If Dregor said "people" it would have made NO sense.

i don't think african-american should be used because not all black people are from africa and not all people from africa are black. in this case i have to ues race, cause as you've said just saying "people" would make no damn sense.

Lalanae wrote:3) When I obliviate this logic by asking him about Asians (who "aren't from Asia") he THEN changes his story. NOW his issue has nothing to do with geography. He doesn't think race should be referred to at all. Look back at #1. See the complete shift? He still hasn't explained what word Dregor should have used. I guess he wants a big space there?

he should have used the word black.

Lalanae wrote: Racial modifiers MUST be used to differentiate.

it's not always necesary(sp prolly)

*edit* added [/

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » May 2, 2003, 6:22 pm

Spang got bent out of shape over the term African American used in Dregor's post. That means he thinks another term should be used.

NO!

Gawd I feel like I am trying to explain a cloud to someone who has lived in a cave all their life.

He doesn't think another term should be used. NO TERM SHOULD BE USED. Why? BECAUSE RACE IS A NON-ISSUE!!

Damn am I glad it's Friday.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 2, 2003, 6:25 pm

Fallanthas wrote:
Spang got bent out of shape over the term African American used in Dregor's post. That means he thinks another term should be used.

NO!

Gawd I feel like I am trying to explain a cloud to someone who has lived in a cave all their life.

He doesn't think another term should be used. NO TERM SHOULD BE USED. Why? BECAUSE RACE IS A NON-ISSUE!!

Damn am I glad it's Friday.

Race is a non-issue on a thread about racism?

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » May 2, 2003, 6:53 pm

Reasoning with Lalanae.

Lets try this again.

I can see, that by the definition of racism, calling someone an African-american does not constitute racism. It neither claims superiority, nor does it perpetuate a discrimination. I think that is where the disjunction on the arguement is, and where I went astray from the intent I was trying to convey.

By applying labels to people, you perpetuate a distinction that this person is different. That in itself is not bad, but when you make the distinction based on physical characteristics, you open the gates for people to discriminate. The government does this by necessity, since they have determined the need to track population trends. In a perfect society, there would be no reason to track where people of asian descent tend to settle, or where blacks, whites or indians settle. However, we all know the US is far from perfect.

Then, in the 80's, a trend started with minorities calling themselves after places of ethnic origin. The biggest arguement against this is the fact that over 90% of those claiming to be -american, were born here in America, have never been to the place they claim to be hyphenated from, and have no knowledge or real interest in the place. These people, from Irish-american to African-american, often claim such heritage to make themself special to those around them, albeit subconsciously. Think about it for a minute. Why, as a young black man in America, would you want to claim to be FROM Africa (which is what is IMPLIED by the hyphenation). Most young black men have no idea of even one name of a country in Africa, much less a name of a tribe.

Sorry, I ramble

Dregor. I have a question. What does the acronym NAACP stand for? Their acronym itself is a contradiction to your arguement. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Not the National Association for the Advancement of African American People. Back when the NAACP was founded, the term Colored was acceptable by all, including the black community. As times changed, so did the desire to be called something else. At one point, negro was acceptable, as well as Colored. Now we have African-american. In my eyes, all should not have been necessary, but America has always had it's share of ignorance. However, in the years to come, I hope that all references to color/ethnic origins can be dropped. After all, we are "One Nation, Indivisible, with liberty and Justice for all " (didn't they drop the Under God reference to appease the agnostic/athiest/non-christian?)

As for your other question:

Back to my example, you're trying to tell me that if you were confronted with an American citizen of Asian descent, Chinese for arguments sake, and you were asked to define what they were, Chinese or Asian wouldn't enter your mind as an answer at all? And before you answer, remember you're lying if you say it wouldn't.

Call me a liar. I have spent 10 years in the military, and during that time I learned that race has nothing to do with ability, nor the quality of person. I learned not to make distinctions when describing a person, unless you must describe the persons physical characteristics.

Whenever I had to do a performance review, I never thouth " Gee, Pfc Snuffysan was a pretty good little chinese boy this week". No, I thought strictly that he (or she) was a soldier, and his or her actions this week meritted a reprimand or an "atta-boy".

Do not confuse describing someones looks with describing someone. By that I mean, if you asked me about the soldier, I would have described them (if they deserved it) as a hard worker, able to follow orders, and in the absence of orders show the ability to think on his or her feet, and take charge should the need arise. The soldier demonstrated definate skills in relating to his or her peers as well as thier superiors.

So, feel free to call me a liar, but since you really don't know me, you will be just generalizing me with the rest of the internet crowd.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 2, 2003, 7:09 pm

Fizzlewhip wrote:Dregor. I have a question. What does the acronym NAACP stand for? Their acronym itself is a contradiction to your arguement. National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Not the National Association for the Advancement of African American People. Back when the NAACP was founded, the term Colored was acceptable by all, including the black community. As times changed, so did the desire to be called something else. At one point, negro was acceptable, as well as Colored. Now we have African-american. In my eyes, all should not have been necessary, but America has always had it's share of ignorance. However, in the years to come, I hope that all references to color/ethnic origins can be dropped. After all, we are "One Nation, Indivisible, with liberty and Justice for all " (didn't they drop the Under God reference to appease the agnostic/athiest/non-christian?)

As for your other question:
Back to my example, you're trying to tell me that if you were confronted with an American citizen of Asian descent, Chinese for arguments sake, and you were asked to define what they were, Chinese or Asian wouldn't enter your mind as an answer at all? And before you answer, remember you're lying if you say it wouldn't.
Call me a liar. I have spent 10 years in the military, and during that time I learned that race has nothing to do with ability, nor the quality of person. I learned not to make distinctions when describing a person, unless you must describe the persons physical characteristics.

Whenever I had to do a performance review, I never thouth " Gee, Pfc Snuffysan was a pretty good little chinese boy this week". No, I thought strictly that he (or she) was a soldier, and his or her actions this week meritted a reprimand or an "atta-boy".

Do not confuse describing someones looks with describing someone. By that I mean, if you asked me about the soldier, I would have described them (if they deserved it) as a hard worker, able to follow orders, and in the absence of orders show the ability to think on his or her feet, and take charge should the need arise. The soldier demonstrated definate skills in relating to his or her peers as well as thier superiors.

So, feel free to call me a liar, but since you really don't know me, you will be just generalizing me with the rest of the internet crowd.

Nice speech. First part isn't relative. The issue put forth was whether black people, in general, found it acceptable to be referred to as African American. NAACP says yes.

I wouldn't write the report like that either. But if I had to put a race to them, I'd think Asian or Chinese. Not in derogatory ways, just how I see it. American citizen of Chinese or Asian descent. Asian American.