Should flag burning be illegal?

[Brotha]

To set this up, here's the legal status of it. I think this is up to date:

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/faq.html

So. . is flag burning legal or not?

Most states have laws against flag burning. But Texas V Johnson (a 1989 Supreme Court decision) ruled that those laws are unconstitutional. Now, the states haven't taken them off the books, so I guess it's still "illegal." After the Johnson decision, Congress passed the Flag Protection Act of 1989, which was also overturned in a Supreme Court ruling (US vs Eichman). It, as well, is still on the books. But prosecuting attorneys aren't likely to enforce those laws, so police probably won't arrest you for flag burning. But -- cops still might harass you and hold you in jail for 24 hours for being an Anti-American person. That ought not to happen, but it does.

I think flag burning should be illegal. This goes way beyond being unpatriotic or having an opposing point of view IMO. Thousands have died to preserve this flag and it's a symbol of our country. I don't know why any American would burn their own flag, if you hate this country that much you should just leave it. Before you take that out of context, it's not to say that there shouldn't be opposing points of view or things such as protests should not be allowed. To me, flag burning is just crossing the line.

[Forthe]

omg you are so brainwashed.

Its just a flag dummy.

Retards like you think flag burning should be illegal but burning a cross on someone's front lawn is free speech.

[sarpranous]

no matter how much i hate people buring the flag, its there right to do so. and why make this thread other than to start another big political arguement

[Cartalas]

no matter how much i hate people buring the flag, its there right to do so. and why make this thread other than to start another big political arguement

I agree, I too cant stand seeing the flag burned but people have a right to do it. But I on the other hand have the right to berate the shit out of them

[kyoukan]

I think flag burning should be illegal. This goes way beyond being unpatriotic or having an opposing point of view IMO. Thousands have died to preserve this flag and it's a symbol of our country. I don't know why any American would burn their own flag, if you hate this country that much you should just leave it. Before you take that out of context, it's not to say that there shouldn't be opposing points of view or things such as protests should not be allowed. To me, flag burning is just crossing the line.

So, you are anti-first amendment?

[Cartalas]

I think flag burning should be illegal. This goes way beyond being unpatriotic or having an opposing point of view IMO. Thousands have died to preserve this flag and it's a symbol of our country. I don't know why any American would burn their own flag, if you hate this country that much you should just leave it. Before you take that out of context, it's not to say that there shouldn't be opposing points of view or things such as protests should not be allowed. To me, flag burning is just crossing the line.

So, you are anti-first amendment?

Ummmm /raises his hand



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. "


Where in that paragraph does it say burn the flag.

[kyoukan]

It is covered under freedom of speech and to express yourself.

Are you seriously contending that it's not?

I mean I know that you are a totaly fucking clueless moron but sure you aren't thinking that you can change the constitution.

[Cartalas]

It is covered under freedom of speech and to express yourself.

Are you seriously contending that it's not?

I mean I know that you are a totaly fucking clueless moron but sure you aren't thinking that you can change the constitution.

Guess what its my constitution not yours, So flag burning being covered is open to interpretation, But lets say some religion believes that by killing the next door neighbors Dog they are practicing there right to express themselves.

[Acies]

It is covered under freedom of speech and to express yourself.

Are you seriously contending that it's not?

I mean I know that you are a totaly fucking clueless moron but sure you aren't thinking that you can change the constitution.

Guess what its my constitution not yours, So flag burning being covered is open to interpretation, But lets say some religion believes that by killing the next door neighbors Dog they are practicing there right to express themselves.

As long as it harm none, do as thou wilt.

[Xzion]

burning the flag is a freedom americans have, i support anything that promotes freedom, that is not at the expense of someone else

you conservatives are all for "liberating" the iraqis and promoting there freedoms, where you want to take away american freedoms?, kinda hypocritical

[Acies]

burning the flag is a freedom americans have, i support anything that promotes freedom, that is not at the expense of someone else

you conservatives are all for "liberating" the iraqis and promoting there freedoms, where you want to take away american freedoms?, kinda hypocritical

Funny, conservatives wanted to liberate Iraq.
Liberals wanted to conserve ourselves for a real worry.

[Cartalas]

burning the flag is a freedom americans have, i support anything that promotes freedom, that is not at the expense of someone else

you conservatives are all for "liberating" the iraqis and promoting there freedoms, where you want to take away american freedoms?, kinda hypocritical

Not all Conservatives feel that way, As I have said a person has the right to burn the flag I dont care. But a person also has the right to take a fire hose and put it out, they also have the right to express there feelings to the person burning the flag. So go ahead burn away just dont expect any kind words from me if I see ya doing it.

[Acies]

burning the flag is a freedom americans have, i support anything that promotes freedom, that is not at the expense of someone else

you conservatives are all for "liberating" the iraqis and promoting there freedoms, where you want to take away american freedoms?, kinda hypocritical

Not all Conservatives feel that way, As I have said a person has the right to burn the flag I dont care. But a person also has the right to take a fire hose and put it out, they also have the right to express there feelings to the person burning the flag. So go ahead burn away just dont expect any kind words from me if I see ya doing it.

There is a differance between burning a flag and assult and battery.

[Cartalas]

burning the flag is a freedom americans have, i support anything that promotes freedom, that is not at the expense of someone else

you conservatives are all for "liberating" the iraqis and promoting there freedoms, where you want to take away american freedoms?, kinda hypocritical

Not all Conservatives feel that way, As I have said a person has the right to burn the flag I dont care. But a person also has the right to take a fire hose and put it out, they also have the right to express there feelings to the person burning the flag. So go ahead burn away just dont expect any kind words from me if I see ya doing it.

There is a differance between burning a flag and assult and battery.

Hmmm I know that but the last time I looked the 1st Amend. Said i had the freedom of speech, where in my post does it say attacking anyone.

[Krimson Klaw]

I still get teared every single time I hear the Star Spangled Banner. They have the right to burn it, remember, freedom of speech does not mean *free speech, just as long as I agree with it*. Flag burning pisses me off, but so do OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of things people are allowed to do in America. If the idea of freedom of speech and tolerance do not appeal to you, there are plenty of middle eastern or Asian countries you could go live in. Don't let the doorknob hit ya.

[Acies]

I still get teared every single time I hear the Star Spangled Banner. They have the right to burn it, remember, freedom of speech does not mean *free speech, just as long as I agree with it*. Flag burning pisses me off, but so do OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of things people are allowed to do in America. If the idea of freedom of speech and tolerance do not appeal to you, there are plenty of middle eastern or Asian countries you could go live in. Don't let the doorknob hit ya.

Couldn't have said it better myself, except the whole "get out" part.
I would never burn an American flag.
I would never try to stop someone who is burning it.

[Arborealus]

This is a protected demonstration...should it be protected...read the
Declaration of Independence....

The 1st amendment is as close to religion as I get.......Mess with it and I go ballistic...

[sarlen]

I still get teared every single time I hear the Star Spangled Banner. They have the right to burn it, remember, freedom of speech does not mean *free speech, just as long as I agree with it*. Flag burning pisses me off, but so do OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of things people are allowed to do in America. If the idea of freedom of speech and tolerance do not appeal to you, there are plenty of middle eastern or Asian countries you could go live in. Don't let the doorknob hit ya.

Couldn't have said it better myself, except the whole "get out" part.
I would never burn an American flag.
I would never try to stop someone who is burning it.

I agree completly. Let them burn it, ALL Americans have the right, it is only a piece of cloth after all. People who take offense to it I think are a little to cought up in the symbolisium of it.

[Mak]

No, burning the flag shouldn't be illegal, but I will say it's getting more and more banal every day. You'd think protesting would be more creative.

[Xouqoa]

I don't like it, but it shouldn't be illegal.

Most American flags are made in Taiwan anyway.

[Silvarel Mistmoon]

The American flag represents our freedom and rights. That is why it bothers me when I see a American burning the American flag.
The flag does not stand for who is in office or what they stand for. The flag is the peoples flag.

[Fallanthas]

I think the First Amendment has been stretched beyond the point of ridicule to cover "freedom of expression" when the clause plainly says "freedom of speech".

I find burning effigies of any kind to be a particularly stupid way to protest.


Yes, it's currently defined as your right to burn an American flag. It's also my right to consider you an unimaginative grandstander for doing so.

[miir]

I think flag burning should be illegal. This goes way beyond being unpatriotic or having an opposing point of view IMO. Thousands have died to preserve this flag and it's a symbol of our country. I don't know why any American would burn their own flag, if you hate this country that much you should just leave it. Before you take that out of context, it's not to say that there shouldn't be opposing points of view or things such as protests should not be allowed. To me, flag burning is just crossing the line.

Brotha, you're not only a moron, you're an anti-american hypocrite.

[Fairweather Pure]

Burn it all you want. My American Spirit is rooted much deeper in our culture and myself to be somehow “wounded” by such a simple and banal act. Furthermore, when people burn the flag I do not see it as a personal affront to myself as an American. Quite frankly, I consider that view as both egotistical and megalomaniac. Common sense dictates they are burning the flag for a reason. It’s cause and effect. Many times it's easy to understand the reason as to why that person chose to burn the flag once you look at the situation from the other viewpoint. I may not agree with it, but I understand why they are showing thier frustration and anger.

Obviously, your assigning of personal views and "Freedom and Rights" to the American Flag has nothing to do with the angry and disenchanted vets that are setting the flag on fire to protest getting their benefits dropped. When people burn their country’s flag, it is merely an effigy for what has prompted their feelings. The reasons for flag burning are many and varied. People should always have the right to express their discontent and unhappiness with their government. When a government starts taking away those rights, that's when things get ugly.

[Kelshara]

As a non-American living in USA this is an area that I simply can not understand: How much of the patriotism is linked to the flag. There are flags everywhere, worn out flags on cars, flags on houses that are never taken down at night (if I recall, they should be taken down each night right) etc. Why do you have to show your patriotism so openly? I simply can not understand it.

In Norway we only use flags on national holidays and birthdays. And we are far from unpatriotic (ask any Swede about that ). So why the huge difference? Is it the age of the countries? Somebody please enlighten me on this.

Personally, I don't like dragging a flag around everywhere. It's simply not my way of showing patriotism. I, as well. can get teary eyed at both the American and Norwegian national anthems, but the flag is just a piece of colored cloth to me. Which is probably made in Asia anyway.

[Fredonia Coldheart]

My father fought in WW2 and was a very active member of the American Legion. I was taught that a flag should never touch the ground, should never be flown at night unless a light shown on it, and that you never threw away an old worn out flag, you burned it.

According to both the American Legion and the VFW, the proper way to dispose of a worn flag is by burning in a very solemn ceremony. The American Legion ceremony was adopted in 1937 ...

http://www.legion.org/our_flag/of_unser ... _flag3.htm
http://www.vfwil.org/Dispose-of-flag.htm

[Somali]

Flag burning should not be illegal. That being said, the fine for someone beating the hell out of a flag burner should be somewhere in the vicinity of a quarter.
If your freedom of speech entitiles you to burn a flag, then mine entitles me to pummel you into the ground and set your ass on fire directly thereafter.

[miir]

If your freedom of speech entitiles you to burn a flag, then mine entitles me to pummel you into the ground and set your ass on fire directly thereafter

So you think it's ok to assault someone who is excercising their constitutional rights?

If someone saw you assaulting a flag burner they are entitled to string you up behind a pickup truck, drag you for a few blocks then put a bullet in your head?



Some of you retards have some really fucked up values.

[Kargyle]

So flag burning being covered is open to interpretation

It isn't really open to much interpretation anymore. Twice the Supreme Court has ruled laws against flag burning to unconstitutional. I strongly disagree with people who choose to burn the American Flag but I won't deny that they have the right to do so. Personally I feel that flag burning is just silly, a flag is only a piece of cloth, you can't burn the ideas that a flag actually represents. It isn't as if they are some how destroying the ideals of America by burning the flag.

[Fairweather Pure]

then mine entitles me to pummel you into the ground and set your ass on fire directly thereafter.

That's a pretty fucked opinion dude.

[Wulfran]

Flags are an issue of vast ignorance to most of the general public, no matter what country you live in. They are supposed to be a symbol to identify your nation, yet most people have no idea to properly treat a flag.

I have seen literally hundreds of tattered thread-bare pieces of cloth that used to be flags in my various travels and to me this is more offensive than someone burning it in effigy. I think it is the utmost in hypocrasy to have someone proclaim their patriotism via a frayed rag flapping in the wind. And in Canada, believe it or not, flying a flag in that condition is illegal, although it is a law that is never enforced.

I was taught that a flag should never touch the ground, should never be flown at night unless a light shown on it, and that you never threw away an old worn out flag, you burned it.

That is pretty standard military protocol on flags and to be honest, in the context of the Canadian laws, pretty much the only legal way to display a national flag.

Do I like to see people burning my flag in effigy? No, I think it is a stupid way to protest: you don't like a specific action of a government/agency/citizen so you attempt to antagonize an entire nation... seems logical and intelligent. Should it be illegal? No, as it would be a largely un-enforceable law if it is even deemed constitutional in your respective countries.

[Kelgar]

If your freedom of speech entitiles you to burn a flag, then mine entitles me to pummel you into the ground and set your ass on fire directly thereafter.

Brilliant line of logic there.

Eat any good books lately?

[Cartalas]

Flag burning should not be illegal. That being said, the fine for someone beating the hell out of a flag burner should be somewhere in the vicinity of a quarter.
If your freedom of speech entitiles you to burn a flag, then mine entitles me to pummel you into the ground and set your ass on fire directly thereafter.

Somali I have to agree with everyone here in saying that is not the way to approach the problem, You the flag burner to swing first then and only then do you have Carte Blanc too rape his ass so his parents wont know him.

[miir]

Brilliant line of logic there.

Eat any good books lately?

I was using Somali's logic.
You need to turn on your sarcasm detector.

[Cartalas]

Brilliant line of logic there.

Eat any good books lately?

I was using Somali's logic.
You need to turn on your sarcasm detector.

I know you Miir, My Sarcasm Detector is in full working order.

[Kelgar]

I was using Somali's logic.
You need to turn on your sarcasm detector.

Sarcasm detector? Perhaps you should reread my post and this time, turn on your post rebuttal direction detector.

[miir]

I was using Somali's logic.
You need to turn on your sarcasm detector.

Sarcasm detector? Perhaps you should reread my post and this time, turn on your post rebuttal direction detector.

Perhaps I need to work on my reading skills a bit more....


*hangs head*

[Fairweather Pure]

so you attempt to antagonize an entire nation

People that burn the flag outside of our country usually do it in protest of something they obvioulsy dislike us doing, like waging war on Iraq.

When our own citizens burn the flag, it is basically an expression that the flag has no meaning. One might feel that having their husband wrongfully accussed and put to death or maybe government officials getting caught in a huge scandal undermines everything the American Flag stands for. When our government makes decisions that completely ignore or undermine the basic foundations of our country, an American individual, a minority group, ect., they might as well be wiping their ass with the American Flag. I find it odd that the people that would actually do violence against a protester for burning the flag cannot seem to muster the same disgust/anger and confront the real threats to American society and culture.

[Somali]

I'm fairly confident that Kelgar was attempting to poke at me with that.. not you Miir. But mebbe my southern readin skillz needs sum werk.
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me.

At any rate.. I was just a touch bored with the thread. Haven't read a good flame in a while here. I thought mebbe you guys were forgetting this was flamevault. Would I really pummel someone for burning a flag? No.. I'd really rather not instigate a bout of fisticuffs, other than a verbal one...

I really do find it amusing that people feel that it is freedom of speech to burn a flag. What exactly is it that you said to catch the flag on fire?

Let us be clear about something as well. Those of you that believe in a euphoric society where there are no rules, no regulations about what people can or cannot do, yet everyone is a member of the "Shiny, Happy People" club are obviously on some seriously good halucinagen. There are a certain degree of limitations that need to be placed on peoples freedoms regardless of what society you are in. Should one of those be burning a flag? I don't care all that much. There is a very large component of our population that believes this is a dire insult to their personal beliefs. Are those of you who support flag burning really so deadened to other peoples emotions and belief structures that you intentionally defile them in such a way? Can you really tell me that not allowing someone to burn a symbol of their country damages their state of mind in some way shape or form?

[Fairweather Pure]

After reading your reply Somali, I cannot help but agree that the minority should never be able to oppose the majority. I also agree that "freedom of speech" should be taken literally, and any form of communication that is not spoken is simply not subject to the First Amendment. I also find your attempt to inject some fun and spice into this thread a resounding success!

[Lalanae]

Those of you that believe in a euphoric society

I think you mean UTOPIAN.

[Dregor Thule]

Now now.. you never know, he (she?) could have meant a society that elicited a strong feeling of grooviness. I hear that's a side effect of smog!

[Somali]

I used euphoric intentionally. Utopia could have been used in its place.. But euphoria more tightly coincided with the reference to them being on . Although I suppose we could state that anyone believing in Utopia is in a euphoric state. Had I used Utopia, I think the comments following about the no rules bleh bleh bleh would have been a bit repetitive as well. But thats just me. Read it as you please though. I'm open to interpretation. I'm really too tired to make cohesive thoughts much less sentences at the moment anyway.

[Metanis]

Flag burning should not be illegal. That being said, the fine for someone beating the hell out of a flag burner should be somewhere in the vicinity of a quarter.
If your freedom of speech entitiles you to burn a flag, then mine entitles me to pummel you into the ground and set your ass on fire directly thereafter.

/agree 100%

To some people a flag is merely a piece of cloth. To others it is a symbol and even a testament reflecting their truth and their sacrifice. For example, how about the POW's who sat in the Hanoi Hilton for 6 years of their lives? To those people that flag may be one of the most important symbols of their lives. In that case, beating the hell out of a flag burner should be considered a valid expression of their civil rights!

[Kelshara]

Of course I would laugh my ass off if the flag burner beat the crap out of you instead heh..

Anyway, I still don't see the whole thing about flag = patriotism deal. Especially not the way flags are used here. If it is such an important symbol then treat it like it and don't waste it every single day.

[kyoukan]

Most vietnam vets and POWs are probably the first to burn the american flag, since about 80% of them were there against their will and being forced to fight and die to an army they really had no problem with.

But keep trying. Watching you flounder around like a retard is always amusing, and it would hardly be a weekday if I didn't get a chance to make you look like a moron.

[Spangaloid_PE]

if i set the bible on fire, let it burn till it was nothing but ash...would that be ok?

[Metanis]

Most vietnam vets and POWs are probably the first to burn the american flag, since about 80% of them were there against their will and being forced to fight and die to an army they really had no problem with.

But keep trying. Watching you flounder around like a retard is always amusing, and it would hardly be a weekday if I didn't get a chance to make you look like a moron.

At least you expressed "probably". The truth is you don't have a fucking clue... nothing new there. The people held in the Hanoi Hilton were largely pilots or air crew and 100% of them were volunteers.

My post really had to do with the fact that some people may attach serious importantance to the image of the flag of their country. It was just decided in a court in Virginia that similar symbolism can be considered objectional speech... I speak of the cross-burning case. Hence, if cross-burning can be considered a violation then using the same logic we should be able to protect the flag from such treatment.

Personally I don't have much problem with either action, I just think the same standards should be applied. I would consider you burning the flag of my country a form of hate speech. Liberals seem to have a problem with hate speech. Hence, you should be opposed to flag burning.

[Dregor Thule]

if i set the bible on fire, let it burn till it was nothing but ash...would that be ok?

Yes. I may find a bible and do that myself next time I need to start a fire. It's a book, a boring one at that.

[Lalanae]

Metanis, your logic is flawed and your assumptions are wrong (OMG REALLY???)

"Liberals," as you call people who have a problem with racist mysogynist comments the likes of you (i.e. trailer trash) throw around, don't believe in censorship in any form. Look to your fellow conservatives on censorship issues, dear. They are the one who enjoy a little book burning from time to time. They are the ones who joined forces with their foes the radical feminists to try and illegalize pornography. It may be WRONG to vocalize racism, but its not illegal, nor should it be. Liberals typically are anti-censorship. I say if someone wants to burn a flag, let them as long as they aren't posing a safety risk. If someone gets all worked up about it that is their PERSONAL problem. The law doesn't cover personal psychological fixations jackass.

You need to read a little Marx. Read up on his fetish theory. Now you are too stupid to know that when I say fetish I'm not talking about sex, so I'll tell you it has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with investing yourself in SYMBOLS (fetishes).