Destruction and looting of priceless artifacts in Iraq

[Willowwing]

Anyone else find this surreal that we protected oil fields and let some of the oldest known relics in the world be looted and destroyed?

[Kelshara]

shrug not really surprised, shows how the government think imho

[Brotha]

There was still fighting going on in the streets of Iraq, what were we supposed to do?

A few things to note.

A. It looks like the "looting" was done by people who knew what they were doing (had keys, were selective in what they took).

B. The museum was part of a list of targets that we purposely avoiding bombing. Incidently, another thing on that last was mosques, although if you judged the reaction of people on the left, we were purposely targeting civilians, we hate islam, and we don't give a damn about the Iraqi people- all of which have proven to be false by our actions.

C. The museum staff had been trained that in the event of a war breaking out, they were to move all the valuable items to a safe location. They had been trained to move all of them to this safe location in a 24 hour time period. They had 3 weeks. Why aren't you up in arms about their negligence? Easier to blame the US?

D. Why in the world were all of these "priceless" items in BAGHDAD of all places?

E. How can you compare us securing oil fields to securing a fucking museum? I swear some people just want to find SOMETHING to nag about. When they weren't able to prevent the war, they started saying all of these civilian and coalition casualties would happen, it would be so terrible! Then when they were wrong about that, they had to find something else, just wait...something would happen! Some slaughter of thousands of civilians would take place by blood hungry cowboy troops, Americans would rape some women, we'd use WMDs...SOMETHING! Then when news of a museum being looted by what looks like normal criminals in a war zone happened, they latched onto this...this is the traumatic, inhumane catastropy they needed to justify their opposition to removing a mass murdering, oppresive dictator! To think that all the people on the left have to whine about right now is a museum being robbed is actually a good thing in my mind, it lets me know that we executed this war the right way- preventing the slaughter of civilians, treating prisoners humanely, leaving mosques intact, preventing a natural disaster that would have been devestating, and getting so much aid to the Iraqi people that many cities are in better shape food/water wise now than they were even before the war began.

I love history. It kills me that these artifacts were taken and I hope that we will be able to get them back, which we're working hard to do.

[kyoukan]

A. It looks like the "looting" was done by people who knew what they were doing (had keys, were selective in what they took).

Source that? Shots I saw of the Baghdad museum showed that it was absolutely fucking trashed. You're most likely bullshitting anyway.

B. The museum was part of a list of targets that we purposely avoiding bombing.

Gee that's awfully fucking magnanimous of you.

Incidently, another thing on that last was mosques, although if you judged the reaction of people on the left, we were purposely targeting civilians, we hate islam, and we don't give a damn about the Iraqi people- all of which have proven to be false by our actions.

Considering the fact you keep military bases in the middle east and are constantly threatening them, sanctioning them and dumping cruise missiles into their cities, it's not a far stretch to think that you are a bunch of bloodthirsty muslim haters.

C. The museum staff had been trained that in the event of a war breaking out, they were to move all the valuable items to a safe location. They had been trained to move all of them to this safe location in a 24 hour time period. They had 3 weeks. Why aren't you up in arms about their negligence? Easier to blame the US?

Oh I get it so now it's the museum's fault that they didn't move things out of the museum before the US moved in and started a wave of anarchistic looting and violence. And I guess if any civilian doesnt get the fuck out of the way of US bullets it's their own fucking fault too eh? Hell they had their chance to leave.

D. Why in the world were all of these "priceless" items in BAGHDAD of all places?

Why the fuck not, you stupid shithead? Baghdad is one of the oldest and most historic and culturally rich cities in the world. It also has a population of 6 million people. Oh I get it, the fucking towel headed terrorists that make up 99% of the population of the middle east probably don't have any appreciation for history and culture like the civilized united states does!

[Fallanthas]

US moved in and started a wave of anarchistic looting and violence.

In case you missed it brainchild, it appears the looting was done by officials of the former government on their way out of the country.

Of course, it's much easier to blame the US than to blame the fuckwits that are robbing the country blind, right?

[Lalanae]

Brotha, looting is an expected occurance in chaotic situations. The US should have considered it and made preventative measures. Its the responsible thing to do when you "liberate" a country. But what does a born-again oil-fed Christian from Texas care about ancient relics?

D. Why in the world were all of these "priceless" items in BAGHDAD of all places?

I can't believe you just said that. No, I can, you ignorant twat. Iraq happens to be the seat of ancient civilation. While your ancestors were picking fleas out their crotches, Iraq's ancestors were creating some of the most incredible works of artistry.

Educate yourself.

[Boogahz]

Anyone else find this surreal that we protected oil fields and let some of the oldest known relics in the world be looted and destroyed?

You didn't see the guy going down the highway with an oil derrick on his camel?

[Willowwing]

The point was the first ever written record of language was looted and destroyed whoever did it IT was just plain wrong Lal hit on what I was getting at all people basically originated from that region. With new technonology of digital imaging anthropologists and archaelogists have found text on charred and ashed pieces of paper from pompeii. Losing these pieces of history IS priceless it's who we are. Good news is there is a lot of lookout for any of those pieces trying to be sold in europe and asia. FYI the curator of the museum was enraged and in tears that his own people did this. And how the hell do you move stuff like that while a war is going on? Not to mention if I were in there shoes with targets being picked I wouldnt want to be in a convoy of trucks on the road during a war ....would you?

[Brotha]

Source that? Shots I saw of the Baghdad museum showed that it was absolutely fucking trashed. You're most likely bullshitting anyway.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Apr17.html

PARIS, April 17 -- Well-organized professional thieves stole most of the priceless artifacts looted from Baghdad's National Museum of Antiquities last week, and they may have had inside help from low-level museum employees, the head of UNESCO said today.

Thousands of objects were lost at the museum, both to the sophisticated burglars and to mob looting, Koichiro Matsuura, director general of the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, said in an interview.

"Most of it was well-planned looting by professionals," he said. "They stole these cultural goods to make profits."

Museum officials in Baghdad told UNESCO that one group of thieves had keys to an underground vault where the most valuable artifacts were stored. The thefts were probably the work of international gangs who hired Iraqis for the job, and who have been active in recent years doing illegal excavations at Iraqi archaeological digs, according to archaeological experts working with UNESCO.

Matsuura said top museum officials tried to protect the institution, but the thieves may have succeeded in paying off guards or other low-ranking personnel. He said he doesn't blame the U.S. military, even though UNESCO had urged the U.S. government before the war to safeguard it and other cultural sites.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast ... tiquities/

Meanwhile, the curators of the Baghdad museum have told CNN they now believe, because of some of the evidence that they have found, that some of the items were taken by professional art thieves.

CNN's Jim Clancy reports one of the things that was taken was a bronze bust dating back about 7,000 years.

It weighed hundreds of kilograms and was taken off the second floor.

The curators say no normal looters would have had access to the the equipment needed to remove and transport such an object.

If you don't like those sources then go anywhere and look (other than the anti war US hating sites that are patting themselves on the back for finally finding evidence of the US trying to destroy the arab culture) for yourself. These were planned and the "mob" of common looters were not the ones who stole the most priceless items.

To sum up some of my views (I'm not quoting this an any official news source):

http://www.spleenville.com/journal/archives/001491.php

That being said, I'll say another thing. The discussion elsewhere seems to have bogged down in a round-robin game of What's More Important, live people or dead artifacts? I have played the game as well, but it's a diversion from the crux of the topic, which is: has anyone noticed the curious fact that no one seems to have entertained the notion that American troops (and, by proxy, the other members of the coalition forces) would even think of looting the place themselves? Throughout history, conquering nations have looted the places they conquered. But that is not what is happening here. Instead of the coalition forces being the looters, the country's own citizenry is doing the looting. But I haven't heard that used as a point of praise for our forces, or even for modern Western civilization in general. It's as if it was not only expected of us to act that way, but as if it wasn't even worth mentioning, like breathing. That's nice, and says scads about us as human beings -- but it also hints that we are taking ourselves too much for granted and not giving ourselves credit. Too much self-effacement can tip over into a kind of proud refusal to admit to the possibility that we can be weak. That can't be a good thing.

Considering the fact you keep military bases in the middle east and are constantly threatening them, sanctioning them and dumping cruise missiles into their cities, it's not a far stretch to think that you are a bunch of bloodthirsty muslim haters.

Yeah we say "eenie, meenie, minie, moe" (we're racist pigs remember?) and randomly pick out an arab country on a map, after someone else shows us where those countries are of course since we all know we're uneducated cowboys who couldn't even locate Mexico on a map, and those unlucky countries who are narrowed down to being "it" get cruise missles and/or sanctions.

OR maybe we just pick out a country that has invaded another country for purely imperialistic purposes, is harboring and supporting terrorists, and developing weapons of mass destruction that it has already used in the past on its own people, and we choose to use these tools as a means to deal with said country that has already proven itself incapable of solving anything diplomatically.

I'm thinking the first option is what we're most likely to use as a criteria for invasion, especially since all the undeniable historical facts prove this theory to be correct.

Our nontargetting of mosques and taking just about every means possible to keep the civilian loss to a bare minimum, our transporting huge amounts of aid to Iraqi cities, and our past actions in countries such as Somalia/Kosovo surely prove your theory of us hating muslims to be true.

Oh I get it so now it's the museum's fault that they didn't move things out of the museum before the US moved in and started a wave of anarchistic looting and violence. And I guess if any civilian doesnt get the fuck out of the way of US bullets it's their own fucking fault too eh? Hell they had their chance to leave.

I'm glad you get it. I wish the US had done more and I believe we could have, but I also think that that's arguing over semantics in a war where the primary concern was human life. Am I partly blaming the museum staff? Hell yes I am.

I can't believe you just said that. No, I can, you ignorant twat. Iraq happens to be the seat of ancient civilation. While your ancestors were picking fleas out their crotches, Iraq's ancestors were creating some of the most incredible works of artistry.

You took my quote way out of context. What I meant was that Baghdad was a city that was fixing to have a huge bombing campaign executed on it, one which we all thought would be OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more destructive than it was. Common sense says that's not a good place for these priceless artifacts, especially since there was plenty of time to move them.

EDIT: I agree completely with you Willowwing that many of these were priceless artifacts and, as I said before, it absolutely kills me that they were stolen and perhaps forever lost. However, placing all of the blame on the US is incorrect, and so is trying to place these artifacts above any human life.

[Spangaloid_PE]

well let's look at the events that led up to securing Baghdad...

blah blah blah...oil fields...blah blah blah...oh look, another oil field...blah blah blah...hey look over there, another oil field....blah blah blah...Baghdad. (not sure exactly how many oil fields there were)

securing the oil fields took priority. they were first on the road to Baghdad. it's common sense.

once inside Baghdad, securing it was priority. human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?

[Lalanae]

well let's look at the events that led up to securing Baghdad...

blah blah blah...oil fields...blah blah blah...oh look, another oil field...blah blah blah...hey look over there, another oil field....blah blah blah...Baghdad. (not sure exactly how many oil fields there were)

securing the oil fields took priority. they were first on the road to Baghdad. it's common sense.

once inside Baghdad, securing it was priority. human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?

Oh I forget, the US is only capable of one thought at a time.

Fact is, they even admitted they didn't consider it.

[Spangaloid_PE]

well let's look at the events that led up to securing Baghdad...

blah blah blah...oil fields...blah blah blah...oh look, another oil field...blah blah blah...hey look over there, another oil field....blah blah blah...Baghdad. (not sure exactly how many oil fields there were)

securing the oil fields took priority. they were first on the road to Baghdad. it's common sense.

once inside Baghdad, securing it was priority. human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?

Oh I forget, the US is only capable of one thought at a time.

Fact is, they even admitted they didn't consider it.

when we were securing oil fields we weren't in Baghdad yet. i don't see where you're going with this.

[Zamtuk]

What the fuck do oil fields have to do with looting Baghdad?

[Neost]

The US can't win this one.

We probably should have done more to stop ALL the looting but a soldier on the ground figures if you have your arms full of gold toillet fixtures you just ripped out of saddam's shitter, you ain't holding a rifle, rpg, or wearing an exploding vest. Those guys are not trained in crowd control for the most part. I think National Guard usually get riot training and crowd control and the Marines MIGHT have something similar. I don't remember for sure.

The problem is, it doesn't matter what course of action we take on any given situation, we are wrong.

If we had immediately secured every building in Baghdad that had any governmental, historical, or religious significance and shot or kicked the shit out of anyone trying to remove things we would have been labeled as brutal.

There was a short period of celebration when it became obvious to the Iraqi citizens that Saddam's ass was kicked and days later they are protesting and screaming for us to get out of the country. That's after they blame us for not stopping the looting that THEIR OWN FUCKING COUNTRYMEN were doing. American's weren't looting shit.

If we just stopped everything and pulled out, left them to their own devices we'd take the heat for every little injustice visited on every Iraqi for the next 50 years at least.

If we stay, we're labeled imperialistic. Even if we are successful in introducing democracy, the government would be labeled a "puppet regime".

It's futile. No matter what we do, we are going to be taken to task for it so I say Dubya and the boys should damn the torpedos, full speed ahead.

[Fallanthas]

I've said this before.

In a hostile area, you can be a soldier or you can be a cop. You can't do both at once.

This is one part of the campaign I wish had been better thought out. We did not put nearly enough personnel in Bagdahd to control this, and it damn well should have been forseen.

[Lalanae]

well let's look at the events that led up to securing Baghdad...

blah blah blah...oil fields...blah blah blah...oh look, another oil field...blah blah blah...hey look over there, another oil field....blah blah blah...Baghdad. (not sure exactly how many oil fields there were)

securing the oil fields took priority. they were first on the road to Baghdad. it's common sense.

once inside Baghdad, securing it was priority. human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?

Oh I forget, the US is only capable of one thought at a time.

Fact is, they even admitted they didn't consider it.

when we were securing oil fields we weren't in Baghdad yet. i don't see where you're going with this.

*takes out crayon*

human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?[/

No, I don't agree with your postulation (oops big word alert!) that one has to be sacrificed for the other.

[Spangaloid_PE]

well let's look at the events that led up to securing Baghdad...

blah blah blah...oil fields...blah blah blah...oh look, another oil field...blah blah blah...hey look over there, another oil field....blah blah blah...Baghdad. (not sure exactly how many oil fields there were)

securing the oil fields took priority. they were first on the road to Baghdad. it's common sense.

once inside Baghdad, securing it was priority. human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?

Oh I forget, the US is only capable of one thought at a time.

Fact is, they even admitted they didn't consider it.

when we were securing oil fields we weren't in Baghdad yet. i don't see where you're going with this.

*takes out crayon*

human life was more important than art. wouldn't you agree?[/

No, I don't agree with your postulation (oops big word alert!) that one has to be sacrificed for the other.

i never said one had to be sacrificed for the other. to include me, no one was there to see what was going on while the looting was happening. media will show a small scope of the looting and title the broadcast in a way that makes it look like all of Iraq is in chaos. they get better ratings that way.

bottom line is the coalition's job is to rid the country of the enemy. looters were not the enemy. they have police for those kinds of things.

[kyoukan]

Considering hte police was state run and their infrastructure was blown up, no they didn't have police for that.

[Spangaloid_PE]

Considering hte police was state run and their infrastructure was blown up, no they didn't have police for that.

yes they did...let me go find some link to make you happy..brb

[Spangaloid_PE]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/ ... index.html

And U.S. Marines have agreed to work with Iraqi police in an attempt to restore law and order which has broken down since coalition forces entered the capital a week ago.

[kyoukan]

yes the police exist, nobody is denying that they don't exist, but their leaders were driven out and their infrastructure was destroyed. they lacked leadership; do you really expect them to wake up in the morning and put their uniforms on and go enforce the law when the entire structure of the law was blown up by american bombs?

[Spangaloid_PE]

no, but do expect a professional sports team to police up the chaos in there city after winning the championship?

[Braxter]

what? really...wtf are you talking about?

[Lalanae]

no, but do expect a professional sports team to police up the chaos in there city after winning the championship?

what a BRILLIANT analogy!

That is wrong in so many ways....

[Fairweather Pure]

no, but do expect a professional sports team to police up the chaos in there city after winning the championship?

[Kluden]

no, but do expect a professional sports team to police up the chaos in there city after winning the championship?

Jesus Christ reborn...I hope they did not give you a gun...

[Spangaloid_PE]

what are the differences between the 2?

[Acies]

no, but do expect a professional sports team to police up the chaos in there city after winning the championship?

Bro, that was like our professional sports (baseball, lets say) team matching off against little leaguers.

Now imagine from a spectator point of view. This professional baseball team walks in, challenges this little league team to a game, then predictably woops the shit out of them? Championshp? Nono, Petty.
This war, like the example in the anology, was petty.

Now, lets take a differant anology, more close to the topic.
Germany invades France. Germany predictably kicks the crap out of France. Germany then proceeds to loot palaces. The mobs loot the Louve because Germany does not fucking care about the perservation of the original De'Vinci's, or Van Gogh's, or Picasso's. They care about winning.

Now, who's job was it to protect said art? The curators with their fists?
What about the decimated police force because your nation was just invaded and bombed? HA! What about the invading army? Yes, responsiblity was ours, and again we shirk it.

Granted, I believe Brotha has a point about the professionalism.
If I was a thief, having a fucking war going on around the museum would be ridiculously perfect cover for my crimes. However, it was the U.S.A.'s responsiblity to protect it, and we failed. Hmm, I wonder if 20 soldiers could not be spared to go to the museum and stand guard inside?

Now parts of the earliest culture, even relics from the empire of Darius the First are lost to the black market, because of our negligence.
One clay pot from the era of Mesopotamia would be worth millions.
Lets not even mention the actual art from that period.

[Alfan]

Ray Lewis would make on scary muthafu**in cop . . .

-Alfan

[Spangaloid_PE]

why is it the Coalition's responsibility to protect Iraq's museums? can't we blame the Iraqi's for not guarding it? it was infact the Iraqis that looted the shit in the first place.

had we taken action against people looting the museums the first thing out you people's mouths would be that we are too mean, heartless bastards and it's not our museums, the US is only in it for the priceless artifacts, etc...

[Acies]

why is it the Coalition's responsibility to protect Iraq's museums? can't we blame the Iraqi's for not guarding it? it was infact the Iraqis that looted the shit in the first place.

had we taken action against people looting the museums the first thing out you people's mouths would be that we are too mean, heartless bastards and it's not our museums, the US is only in it for the priceless artifacts, etc...

Oh no.

First it is our responsiblity, because we obliterated (Temporarily) the functioning capacity of the organization who did protect it prior. That art belongs not to Iraq but the world. That art is some of are oldest history, predating Christ by over 3000 years. It was America's responsiblity, another one of many we like to shirk.

And honestly, given the fact that some of the art was of such a caliber, I would have been accepting of those kills, the only ones of this war I would potentially accept. By taking a thief's life, they would have preserved the beauty of the first city and enable the world to still view it. Now it will wind up in some private collection

[Fizzlewhip]

I have no idea where you come up with your "resposibilites" in war. The only responsibility is that our troops do not loot.

Should more have been done? Quite possibly yes. However, the question is when should it have been done. Should it have been done while forces were still trying to secure the city? If you think that, you are truly a moron.

Imagine.

Sergeant: PFC, I want you to guard this building. You and Spec. Snuffy here, along with the rest of the platoon will perform rotations. Now, I know this will leave us an entire platoon short on the rest of the mission, but after all, Art of this calibre is way more important than the measly cost of the lives of the rest of your company.

PFC: Gaaawleeey Sarge. Whutever you Say! ShaZaam!



However, after all the dust settles, and the threat to troops in the area become less, then by all means, safeguard these items.

[Acies]

I have no idea where you come up with your "resposibilites" in war. The only responsibility is that our troops do not loot.

Should more have been done? Quite possibly yes. However, the question is when should it have been done. Should it have been done while forces were still trying to secure the city? If you think that, you are truly a moron.

Imagine.

Sergeant: PFC, I want you to guard this building. You and Spec. Snuffy here, along with the rest of the platoon will perform rotations. Now, I know this will leave us an entire platoon short on the rest of the mission, but after all, Art of this calibre is way more important than the measly cost of the lives of the rest of your company.

PFC: Gaaawleeey Sarge. Whutever you Say! ShaZaam!



However, after all the dust settles, and the threat to troops in the area become less, then by all means, safeguard these items.

I am certain one lone Platoon will destroy the rest of the Army if they do not go along with the b1tch slapping of Iraq!!1!

Please, thousands of soldiers went in there. They could have posted troops on their way to Saddam's bastard son's house. I seriously doubt that one lone Platoon staying behind would cause our generals with their military experience to suddenly become dumbasses incapable of altering their troop movements for the sake of losing a few seconds.

Imagine:

You: Hi, I am this guy who thinks that if 20 soldiers are left behind to guard a museam, the other 9980+ soldiers will die going against our completely antiquated enemy, the Iraqi army (and you people are knocking the French for surrenderng?)

Anyone who is not blind: You brain hurts doesn't it?

You: Whutever you Say! ShaZaam! Yuk Yuk!

I am the moron? I am certain that laurel belongs on your shoulders, oh poobah of "oh my godz0rz! they killz us if we lose 20!!1!"

[Spangaloid_PE]

how was the coalitin supposed to know that the Iraqis would begin looting after we entered Baghdad?

where were the clues that would have told the coalition that they need to post guards at the museums and hospitals cause once we take down the regime the looting will begin?

[Acies]

how was the coalitin supposed to know that the Iraqis would begin looting after we entered Baghdad?

where were the clues that would have told the coalition that they need to post guards at the museums and hospitals cause once we take down the regime the looting will begin?

Past experience.

Example: Look on google for the following topics:

April 26th, 1992
Looting
L.A.

People generally will not stand around if all of a sudden they can do anything without inhabition. That is just the stupid beastial nature of human beings, I suppose.

[kyoukan]

take away law enforcement in any city in any country for any period of time longer than one hour and I guarantee you that there will be looting on a massive scale.

[Spangaloid_PE]

the looting in LA had nothing to do with the downfall of a regime or a war. how is that a clue for the coalition that it might be a good idea to protect the museum and it's artifacts?

[noel]

take away law enforcement in any city in any country for any period of time longer than one hour and I guarantee you that there will be looting on a massive scale.

I pretty much agree with that.

Having said that, I've pretty much surmised that our political leadership asked our military leadership what the absolute minimum number of troops for the operation would be, and that's all the military was allowed to send. Washington logic is like, 'The fewer troops we send, the less likely the country will notice we're going to war!'

I totally agree they had their heads up their asses and should have taken the possibility of urban chaos into consideration but, given the choice between protecting the oil fields or protecting museums, I'd choose oil fields each and every day. Not because of the oil itself; but to prevent another environmental disaster.

The loss of the art is a sad thing, but the protection of the oil fields was the right thing to do (no I haven't seen anyone saying anything to the contrary). The only point I'm really trying to make is that you should blame the idiots in Washington, not the military.

[Acies]

the looting in LA had nothing to do with the downfall of a regime or a war. how is that a clue for the coalition that it might be a good idea to protect the museum and it's artifacts?

The law was non-existant in both cases. There was no system of of crime and punishment. That is what was similiar. The "coalition" (Anyone play Rifts?) should have known better, but with leaders like we do now, I am not suprised they overlook a detail like the place where their evidence of WMD is, or not to piss of the U.N. which is the only world solidifing force), or protect artifacts that is older than Christ, older than Eygpt, and older than Hannurabi.
If our military tacticians are THAT fucking stupid as to actually not have believed that there would be theft happening in large amounts after the deposed the only enforcing figure (Good or bad) in the region, then really I hope those tacticians retire or die, very shortly.

Addition: In lieu of Aranuil post, I could stipulate that yeah, the politicians may have played a factor of ignorance.

[Spangaloid_PE]

how come people don't bust out with this shit before it happens. why is it always after the fact that people start bitching and complaining about shit. there wasn't 1 post that had anything to do about ancient artififacts in Iraq untill after the shit was looted and/or destroyed.

where were the VV military experts at when we were securing oil fields? i didn't hear anyone say that we need to leave the oil fields alone the museums are far more important.

you people are like sports comintators (yup, i still spell for shit) with all the got damn answers. if you know so fuckin' much about this shit, you need to be out there making the calls. you're sellin' yourself short otherwise.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

Are you idiots really that dumb? You want Iraq to cost the US billions and billions of dollars in the aftermath? Do you want Iraq to be a country that simply folds over and dies in the aftermath of this war and hence causing the ultimate hatred of America across the entire region? If you don't, then you should be kissing the military's asses for protecting that oil first - that oil is what is going to pull that country out of the shitter - well fuck sure, the US will take some on the side (when don't we) and sure we'll be the ones controlling the entire thing, but the point is, in a country like Iraq - you protect the natural resources and any resources that = $$$ first before anything else or otherwise you've just bombed the fuck out of a country that you will be forced to rebuild all on your own at 100% cost to you....

Now....my question is why the fuck couldn't they protect both? Whatever the answer is, just be mindful next time you accuse the US of only protecting oil out of self interest (although it is easy to concede that that was probably the main reason we protected it)

[Kguku]

where were the VV military experts at when we were securing oil fields? i didn't hear anyone say that we need to leave the oil fields alone the museums are far more important.

you people are like sports comintators (yup, i still spell for shit) with all the got damn answers. if you know so fuckin' much about this shit, you need to be out there making the calls. you're sellin' yourself short otherwise.

What you fail to grasp, Spang, is that those planning the coup of Saddam should have planned for the possibility of looting, and had something in place to prevent / minimize such issues. If you are planning on forcibly changing over an entire regime, which ran everything (including the police force), you better be prepared to fill in the voids created, or expect to be questioned / criticized for not having those measures in place.

[Kluden]

I never claimed to be a military expert. But I do claim to be a tax paying citizen of the United States. Now that may not mean much to you, but to those that know, that means I decide who runs the country. It also means that my money is what paid for this game Dubya has forced on me. The only thing I really asked is for the government and military to do their job, do it right, and do it completely.

In other words, trust is given to people to do a job. They failed to do a complete job. That's all there is to it. It is not my job to decide what will happen when we invade a country...it is Dubya's job (read: his cabinet/military planners and EXPERTS). In this case, the experts slept on the whole aftermath part of our invasion.

History and Culture are just as important as Oil. And if you believe for a minute that the country would have "run out of oil" because we didnt secure the pumps sooner...you're fucken loonier than a canadian one dollar coin...

edit: Just wanted to add that I think we already spend billions on Iraq each year...I'm at work, or otherwise I would look up statistics from the past...so this is all you get for now:Iraqi Relief Funding

[Fizzlewhip]

I have no idea where you come up with your "resposibilites" in war. The only responsibility is that our troops do not loot.

Should more have been done? Quite possibly yes. However, the question is when should it have been done. Should it have been done while forces were still trying to secure the city? If you think that, you are truly a moron.

Imagine.

Sergeant: PFC, I want you to guard this building. You and Spec. Snuffy here, along with the rest of the platoon will perform rotations. Now, I know this will leave us an entire platoon short on the rest of the mission, but after all, Art of this calibre is way more important than the measly cost of the lives of the rest of your company.

PFC: Gaaawleeey Sarge. Whutever you Say! ShaZaam!



However, after all the dust settles, and the threat to troops in the area become less, then by all means, safeguard these items.

I am certain one lone Platoon will destroy the rest of the Army if they do not go along with the b1tch slapping of Iraq!!1!

Please, thousands of soldiers went in there. They could have posted troops on their way to Saddam's bastard son's house. I seriously doubt that one lone Platoon staying behind would cause our generals with their military experience to suddenly become dumbasses incapable of altering their troop movements for the sake of losing a few seconds.

Imagine:

You: Hi, I am this guy who thinks that if 20 soldiers are left behind to guard a museam, the other 9980+ soldiers will die going against our completely antiquated enemy, the Iraqi army (and you people are knocking the French for surrenderng?)

Anyone who is not blind: You brain hurts doesn't it?

You: Whutever you Say! ShaZaam! Yuk Yuk!

I am the moron? I am certain that laurel belongs on your shoulders, oh poobah of "oh my godz0rz! they killz us if we lose 20!!1!"

The moron is the one that does not know a laurel goes upon the head, and tries to use it as a flame incorrectly. Laurels are wreaths placed upon the head to honor. I think you meant mantle, which is typically a burden to bear.

My god your stupidity is astounding.

It is an example, not the example.

Second, you do not diminish the combat power of any unit. A typical unit is 100 people. Now, a normal platoon is around 30. So you want to diminish the combat power of a unit by 1/3. Thank god you are not in the military. Now multiply it by X number of museums, banks, art galleries, and libraries (cause if we left them out, you guys would be screaming). Let's pull an arbitrary number out. Say 20. That makes 600. Of the 10K you state, that means 6%. Never, ever a smart move to diminish your combat strenght. Not to mention the support you need for each platoon. Then there is the fact that you are isolating your platoons in different locations. Gee. 30 men agains a company of Iraqi republican guards, plus the militia. The might win, but at what cost of casualties? Is your vision so narrow that you can't see the possibilities of ambush? Hell, the IRG would have been glad to sacrifice itself to claim 30 US casualties.

Third. The looting occurred during a time when the main concentration was the destruction of infrastructure to remove the current regime.

However, you are not alone in your views, and I can see why you feel the way you do. See the article that follows:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainmen ... 958009.stm

Now, after that goal was accomplished, I agree. The US and its allies should have done everything in its power to limit looting, re-establish order, and ensure that institutions such as banks, museums, libraries, and art galleries were protected. Again, it is about timing.

By the way, Baghdad is not the first city. That is Uruk, home of Gilgamesh. It is located about 250Km South of Baghdad. So by your analogy, the Iraqis looted it. (by the way, the Iraqis weren't the first to loot Baghdad. The mongols had that honor and destroyed and removed much of the important art during that time). Again, I do think that laurel belongs squarely upon your head.

[Kelshara]

why is it the Coalition's responsibility to protect Iraq's museums? can't we blame the Iraqi's for not guarding it? it was infact the Iraqis that looted the shit in the first place.

Ask the Geneva convention, it pretty clearly shows that the invading/conquering force has to keep order. And of course, there was at least one incident when the Coalition Forces shot at (and killed one) people who were trying to guard their houses from looters..

It wasn't just the museum that was looted though. The National Library was looted and set on fire. Hospitals were looted, and patients even thrown out of beds so they could steal their beds.

The whole thing makes me wonder wtf the administration was thinking. Or if they were thinking at all. Of course, by appointing a retired general who has publicly stated he thinks Israel has handled the Palestinian problem perfect to rule over Iraq wasn't very smart either..

[Acies]

I have no idea where you come up with your "resposibilites" in war. The only responsibility is that our troops do not loot.

Should more have been done? Quite possibly yes. However, the question is when should it have been done. Should it have been done while forces were still trying to secure the city? If you think that, you are truly a moron.

Imagine.

Sergeant: PFC, I want you to guard this building. You and Spec. Snuffy here, along with the rest of the platoon will perform rotations. Now, I know this will leave us an entire platoon short on the rest of the mission, but after all, Art of this calibre is way more important than the measly cost of the lives of the rest of your company.

PFC: Gaaawleeey Sarge. Whutever you Say! ShaZaam!



However, after all the dust settles, and the threat to troops in the area become less, then by all means, safeguard these items.

I am certain one lone Platoon will destroy the rest of the Army if they do not go along with the b1tch slapping of Iraq!!1!

Please, thousands of soldiers went in there. They could have posted troops on their way to Saddam's bastard son's house. I seriously doubt that one lone Platoon staying behind would cause our generals with their military experience to suddenly become dumbasses incapable of altering their troop movements for the sake of losing a few seconds.

Imagine:

You: Hi, I am this guy who thinks that if 20 soldiers are left behind to guard a museam, the other 9980+ soldiers will die going against our completely antiquated enemy, the Iraqi army (and you people are knocking the French for surrenderng?)

Anyone who is not blind: You brain hurts doesn't it?

You: Whutever you Say! ShaZaam! Yuk Yuk!

I am the moron? I am certain that laurel belongs on your shoulders, oh poobah of "oh my godz0rz! they killz us if we lose 20!!1!"

The moron is the one that does not know a laurel goes upon the head, and tries to use it as a flame incorrectly. Laurels are wreaths placed upon the head to honor. I think you meant mantle, which is typically a burden to bear.

My god your stupidity is astounding.

It is an example, not the example.

Second, you do not diminish the combat power of any unit. A typical unit is 100 people. Now, a normal platoon is around 30. So you want to diminish the combat power of a unit by 1/3. Thank god you are not in the military. Now multiply it by X number of museums, banks, art galleries, and libraries (cause if we left them out, you guys would be screaming). Let's pull an arbitrary number out. Say 20. That makes 600. Of the 10K you state, that means 6%. Never, ever a smart move to diminish your combat strenght. Not to mention the support you need for each platoon. Then there is the fact that you are isolating your platoons in different locations. Gee. 30 men agains a company of Iraqi republican guards, plus the militia. The might win, but at what cost of casualties? Is your vision so narrow that you can't see the possibilities of ambush? Hell, the IRG would have been glad to sacrifice itself to claim 30 US casualties.

Third. The looting occurred during a time when the main concentration was the destruction of infrastructure to remove the current regime.

However, you are not alone in your views, and I can see why you feel the way you do. See the article that follows:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainmen ... 958009.stm

Now, after that goal was accomplished, I agree. The US and its allies should have done everything in its power to limit looting, re-establish order, and ensure that institutions such as banks, museums, libraries, and art galleries were protected. Again, it is about timing.

By the way, Baghdad is not the first city. That is Uruk, home of Gilgamesh. It is located about 250Km South of Baghdad. So by your analogy, the Iraqis looted it. (by the way, the Iraqis weren't the first to loot Baghdad. The mongols had that honor and destroyed and removed much of the important art during that time). Again, I do think that laurel belongs squarely upon your head.

A laurel is not always placed upon the head. Over it, surely. Example, been to a good horse race? The winning horse gets a laurel (A wreath, as you said) placed over his head, on his shoulders. The fact that I used laurel instead of mantle was just a smart-ass's play on words, one you apparently got as you used the same example at the bottom of your statement. Which makes you a dick.

Next, you sir make me laugh. Your childish knowledge of warfare and battlefield tactics astounds even me.
You see, a Platoon (lets say 30) breaks off from his unit to guard artifacts that out vales and way out dates the Mona Lisa, the Burial casket of Tut, The dead sea scrolls.
So, that unit is 70 men strong now, roughly a third weaker, right?
Well, funny that, you see, this unit is here with an Army, see.
Allow me to explain. OUR Army consists of tens of thousands of soldiers.
So allow us to half that and stipulate from there, mmmkay?
5000 soldiers go into Iraq to get big bad Saddam, following me puppet boy?
Now, 30 are assigned to watch a Museum, k?
That still leaves *gasp* 4970 Soldiers with which to complete other objectives! OMFG!
Yet somehow, remedial math manages to escape you sir.
30 from 5000 is not 1/3 of your fighting force.

Also consider you next few statements. 30 against a company of Iraqi rebublic guard! Wait, if there was republic guard near the museum, why didn't the military take them out, so they would not later be flanked?
Answer: They did.
There was no threat aside from the thieves, and that measure 30 soldiers I believe could have made a serious deterent.

And, again, I was speaking of the first city as a reference to the city built by Darius the First of Mesopotamia, the one you aptly called Uruk.

I do not disagree that the priorities should have been the Iraqi people, then the oil, then the museums and hospitals, but I believe this should have been coordinated better.

However sir, while intelligent to be sure, you are still dense as hell. This could have been prevented if our administration cared in the least. Another example why Bush is not being re-elected.

[Spangaloid_PE]

I never claimed to be a military expert. But I do claim to be a tax paying citizen of the United States. Now that may not mean much to you, but to those that know, that means I decide who runs the country. It also means that my money is what paid for this game Dubya has forced on me. The only thing I really asked is for the government and military to do their job, do it right, and do it completely.

In other words, trust is given to people to do a job. They failed to do a complete job. That's all there is to it. It is not my job to decide what will happen when we invade a country...it is Dubya's job (read: his cabinet/military planners and EXPERTS). In this case, the experts slept on the whole aftermath part of our invasion.

History and Culture are just as important as Oil. And if you believe for a minute that the country would have "run out of oil" because we didnt secure the pumps sooner...you're fucken loonier than a canadian one dollar coin...

first of all, soldiers, airmen, sailors, marines, etc..they all pay taxes too. oh and they vote for the president also, if they choose to.

secondly, no one was worried about running out of oil, they were worried about having to put out the fires. the sooner we secure the oil fields, the lesser the chance of the regime able to set them ablaze.

history and culture is great, but how can you say it's just as important as oil?

[Sabek]

I never claimed to be a military expert. But I do claim to be a tax paying citizen of the United States. Now that may not mean much to you, but to those that know, that means I decide who runs the country. It also means that my money is what paid for this game Dubya has forced on me. The only thing I really asked is for the government and military to do their job, do it right, and do it completely.

In other words, trust is given to people to do a job. They failed to do a complete job. That's all there is to it. It is not my job to decide what will happen when we invade a country...it is Dubya's job (read: his cabinet/military planners and EXPERTS). In this case, the experts slept on the whole aftermath part of our invasion.

History and Culture are just as important as Oil. And if you believe for a minute that the country would have "run out of oil" because we didnt secure the pumps sooner...you're fucken loonier than a canadian one dollar coin...

first of all, soldiers, airmen, sailors, marines, etc..they all pay taxes too. oh and they vote for the president also, if they choose to.

secondly, no one was worried about running out of oil, they were worried about having to put out the fires. the sooner we secure the oil fields, the lesser the chance of the regime able to set them ablaze.

history and culture is great, but how can you say it's just as important as oil?

Spang you just took a headlong leap over the line of stupidity with that little nugget of ignorance.

[Spangaloid_PE]

history and culture is great, but how can you say it's just as important as oil?

Spang you just took a headlong leap over the line of stupidity with that little nugget of ignorance.

please explain

[Sabek]

Not even freaking worth it.
You have been painting yourself as a moron this entire thread.